#‘she married daemon?’ people who hated him put aside their differences for him because it wasn’t about him | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

atopvisenyashill · 2 months

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You know how you said that it was stupid that Rhaenys and Viserys didn't marry since that would've united their claims? Well, what if they did marry? What goes down? Who would Corlys marry? And what about Aemma? Does she marry Daemon instead or maybe someone else?

Okay, so this is all wild speculation and opinion so it is NOT written very well. Just follow the train of thought wherever it takes you, don't worry about going down a tangent, it's fine, we're fine!!

SO…I mean okay, if Rhaenys and Viserys grow up believing they’re going to marry, I would imagine a dynamic similar to Rhaena/Aegon, which is to say like, fine? They like each other well enough, Viserys is fine being ruled by Rhaenys, altho there will be inevitable “make sure Rhaenys doesn’t look hotter than Viserys on Meleys” type stuff the way there was with Rhaena not being allowed to ride Dreamfyre bc Aegon’s dragon was too small (I think Viserys was always going to claim Balerion, but I wonder, if he's engaged to Rhaenys, that the dragonkeepers don't encourage him to claim one of the younger, faster ones, so Rhaenys isn't showing him up? I mean no matter what, I don't think Viserys is ever claiming a young dragon. There's The Narrative but also, that man probably hated riding a dragon, he just wanted to chill with Balerion and read to him). So even with the kind of clash in their personalities, you could do worse than marrying a relative you feel okay with in this series, especially as a Targaryen princess, and both Viserys and Rhaenys would realize that.

BUT. if they marry because, say, alysanne or jaehaerys, suggest it specifically as a way of combing their claims and crowning viserys king and rhaenys queen, well that’s a whole different can of worms. that’s probably a worse aegon/visenya dynamic - rhaenys will feel resentful of being tied to & expected to be subservient to his claim, and viserys, eternal people pleaser that expects people to please him right back is um, not gonna cope well with that (see also: his marriage to alicent).

i would imagine in either case they’d take the throne more or less without any problems. i can see rhaenys talking viserys into letting her rule the way visenya & rhaenys did (could she push to be named queen regnant besides his king regnant, a la william & mary?? im doubtful but i do think rhaenys would insist on the ability to make law & run the small council without viserys needing final say, and i think she’d get it too). given that rhaenys seemed on the whole healthier than aemma (largely because she was giving birth at 17 and not 13), i think they’re probably fine in that area but even if the two of them have issues with living sons, well, rhaenys is certainly not about to let her daughter’s claim be put aside for the likes of daemon fuckin targaryen, and she’s going to be a lot smarter on ensuring her daughter takes the throne after her. i do imagine regardless of whatever changes rhaenys makes, gyldayn refers to her as some sort of harpy badgering poor viserys tho lmao. I think she'd be remembered much less fondly than Alysanne and Rhaenys, again more in line with Visenya, because it would be obvious that she resents her marriage, and she would be attempting to actively play politics and make changes, and both Westeros and Gyldayn get really resentful when women Do Things. But the same way no one could check Visenya, no one is going to check Rhaenys because Viserys is not going to check her. While Rhaenys is deeply resentful, and Viserys is definitely feeling weird about his wife, this is best case scenario fo rhim - all the power of a king without the responsibility. He can have his parties, his songs, his drink, and not worry about the line of succession because Rhaenys had kids, and Rhaenys does the ruling.

as for who everyone else marries….kinda depends on what is cooking in alysanne’s psyche in the mid to late 90s lmao. i think the general theory is that alysanne threw daemon in the vale to help rhaenys’ claim (so rhaenys would be uncontested in the crownlands, and probably so daemon would destroy viserys’ support in the vale by being daemon), and tbf there is mountains of evidence that alysanne plans marriage matches based around punishing the person she’s matching. i think in this scenario, alysanne would be outwardly really supportive of rhaenys & viserys but inwardly super angry, resentful, feeling weird about rhaenys being forced to merge her claim instead of just ruling on her own, and she’s gonna take that out on daemon, so his ass is still going to runestone. we don’t know who arranged the aemma/viserys match (could have been baelon given that alysanne was avoiding the capital at that point) and as for Corlys, his attraction to Rhaenys was a) status b) DRAGON RIDER and he doesn’t really get that with any other woman from this era. all that to say…..i’m wildly speculating here because i think it’s unlikely daemon marries aemma, and i also think it’s likely daemon would inevitably get psycho sexually obsessed with a daughter of viserys.

for aemma…i don’t think it’s out of the question that alysanne suggests corlys for her, and if she’s not married off to viserys, i think alysanne takes a more active role in her life. it means aemma likely doesn’t marry until she’s 16/17, but if aly is arranging it, it’s still likely to an old dude. BUT. i actually think borros baratheon isn’t out of the question here - he’s partial valyrian descent, we don’t know exactly how old he is but he’s probably at least in the same ballpark as aemma, and he’s first born & heir to storm’s end. she could also wind up in white harbor, considering the manderlys press the point in the dance & alysanne seemed at least a bit charmed by the northerners, but i think borros would be most likely.

corlys….the thing about him is that he’s pragmatic, ambitious. yes, he loves rhaenys, but both of them are aware of what privileges the other brings to their marriage. corlys is not only ambitious but (imo) he is aching to prove that the velaryons are just as valyrian, just as powerful as the targaryens - having three dragon riding children was important to him. and look at marilda - precocious, curious, intelligent young girls are very clearly his type. he wouldn’t be cruel to aemma but im not sure he could love her as fiercely as he did rhaenys. and he seemed in no hurry to marry either - i think corlys was being purposefully choosey, biding his time until the perfect match appeared. I'm not sure Corlys would wait like forty or fifty years to marry, but if Rhaenys and Viserys have a girl early enough, if Corlys perhaps has a friendship with Rhaenys....does he ask to marry her daughter? OR OR maybe he does marry Aemma, and then encourages her to claim a dragon.

now i'm thinking about aemma the dragon rider, aemma the daughter-wife of corlys. a better and also much worse life for aemma, haha.

#asks #anons #please except this unorganized stream of consciousness writing anon. aslkdjflkdjf #canon divergent au

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unohanabbygirl · 5 months

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I mean even someone like you who literally has a redemption fic (FMN) for characters like Daemon and Aegon still pushes it.

Well since we’re having a convo i’d like to say that Cole has not shown up in FMN as of yet and if he does I’ve never said anything about him actually being a prick who goes around spreading incel rhetoric. Rather just going along with jokes and other asks but never confirming anything for certain. Second, as for your last ask I’d never put someone like Nettles and Cole in the same category since Nettles character has faced pretty violent racism from quite a few Rhaenyra/Daemon stans all while her official casting hasn’t even been announced yet. Meanwhile Cole (at least from what i’ve seen. Feel free to tell me if anything racist has been implied or said if I’m wrong) has just been called a misogynist loser who was beefing with little kids. Thats it.

Now, everyone has their own opinion on whether or not Rhaenyra took advantage of him and honestly I can see both sides of that argument. Yes, she’s a princess and does have power over him, that much is clear. However, she’s a druken teenage girl and he’s a nearly 30yr old sober man thats been by her side since she was 14. He comes from a noble house (House Cole) and is in a respected position. Some say he would’ve been punished had he said no, but I can’t see any punishment coming about from refusing the princess sex, especially when remaining chaste is a major part of his vows. You could argue Rhaenyra would’ve tried to lie and say he initiated it by coming onto her but would Viserys actually have believed that? At that point in time when he was constantly frustrated with her? I don’t think so. At the worst he would’ve been relinquished of his duties and sent back home. But like I said, he comes from an established house (while certainly not holding that much status) it’s not as though he’d become a beggar on the street. Lowborn doesn’t equate to being common or apart of the smallfolk.

Seducing someone and r*ping them are two different things entirely. He feels shame not because he’d been forced but because he broke his vows and couldn’t marry her as a way to fix it. Now, does being bitter and even hateful towards her for this what makes him a bad man? I don’t think so, he feels used and tossed aside. Anyone would. But taking that out on Harwin and her innocent children? Killing Laenor’s bf in cold blood to the point where he no longer had a face? That’s what makes people (specifically team black) dislike him.

Plus, in F&B his relationship with Rhaenyra is extremely out of line since he’s known her since she was eight. Even Alicent acknowledged it “who will protect the princess from ser criston?”

Anyway, if them having sex was meant to be viewed as sexual assault then I think someone from the cast like Milly, Fabian himself, or one of the writers would’ve said something in an interview. But again, I don’t read every little thing so if it has been said then i’d like to know.

Overall he just gives off loser who beefs with little kids and kills innocent people because of his anger issues to me. But that doesn’t mean I dislike or have any beef with his character. He just hasn’t been fleshed out enough to delve into anything deeper besides the incel jokes. Maybe in season two we might get something I can work with, something that gives him a personality. Because while Daemon, Aegon, and even Corlys (I haven’t forgotten about him trying to marry off Laena to Viserys old ass) have personality. It draws people in despite their gross actions.

#asks

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arabellasleopardcoat · 8 months

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You really hate viserys

I do! Want an itemized list?

Keep in mind it's seven am for me and I typed this on the bus.

1. Inneficient ruler: Think about it for a second. Viserys the peaceful struggles to make useful alliances (See the Velaryons) and his reign does little to advance Westeros. But more so, he is unable to resolve the succession issues he created, by insisting so much on having a son and then having none. All the dance is on him. If he had not been as insistent on a male heir, and had spent his energy positioning more women in power, a gradual change could have been achieved and Rhaenyra could have been accepted as a ruler in time. Instead, he chooses to complain and has the gall to act shocked when the other lords, used to agreeing with him and after watching him demean her to his cupbearer, do not want to accept her.

But fine. Let's say we can forgive him for his misogyny, Viserys had no way of knowing when he was younger that he would need to place a female heir on the throne. But after Baelon's death, he should know better, right? To solidify Rhaenyra's claim, he shouldn't have remarried, but rather focused on getting her to marry so she could produce a male heir and put the realm at ease. Instead, he goes and has, not one! Not two! But three boys. That's three people who can contest her right just by having a dick.

Alright. We will forgive him for his inability to keep it in his pants. He had four children, who were resented by Rhaenyra. A normal person would try to mend the rifts and teach them, even through conditioning if needed, to not covet the throne and love each other. What does he do, instead? Nothing. He washes his hands. These are not his children, Rhaenyra is his only child. Alicent had them via immaculate conception.

It was still fixable. He could have married Rhaenyra to Aegon, perhaps as a second husband to make up for the age difference (We need to ensure she has kids and when he is grown it might be too late or too hard) or Jacaerys to Helaena. But no! Because god forbid he tries thinking strategically.

Ugh. Cristi, why must you be so hard on him? He has an autoimmune disease! He should have stepped aside! If he was getting too sick to rule, he should have named a regent! Perhaps, even Rhaenyra, coaching her into ruling so when he died no one freaked out.

2. Moral high ground: For how much Viserys says Daemon is terrible, they are much the same. Too proud and vain for their own good, but one is much more dangerous than the other, because he sits on the throne.

Both of them killed their wives and groomed children, both are led by their cocks, and both are misogynistic. Say whatever you want, but what Viserys did to Aemma has a name. Obstetric violence. Westeros does not have laws like ours, but we will use ours (Mine, more like it) as a measuring unit. Bear with me here, because this might not be the same where you are. Viserys is the intellectual author of Aeema's homicide. From where I am from, homicides committed knowing there is a chance of killing the other person but without actual intent to kill are considered murder, not manslaughter. And the intellectual author receives the same amount of years as the material one. He raped Alicent. Repeatedly. Daemon commited murder and maybe sexual assault, if Rhaenyra was a minor. So, in terms of violence towards women, they might get the same amount of years or Viserys might get more. Now, I do know law is not an indicator of morality, but as a frame of reference, it's pretty telling.

3. And finally, he sucks as a parent. He fucked Rhaenyra up. She is such a bad heir because, shockingly, he raised her to be. Or more like, forgot about her until he needed her and by that point she was grown and her personality mostly developed. And of course he had to marry her friend just after her mother died. It's not like it would traumatize Rhaenyra, seeing her father with a girl her age. While they were MINORS.

You may argue with all my previous points. In fact, I do not think they are good points. They are not truly why I hate him. My dislike roots not from something rational, but rather a very personal gut feeling I was unable to put into words before last night. As I was sitting with this ask I suddenly realized the real reason I dislike Viserys so much. As some of you might know, I am latina. And not in a Alexa Demie kind of way, in a lives in Latin America, speaks Spanish and does not plan on leaving kind of way.

In Latin America as a whole, there seems to be a culture of men having children and not taking responsability for them. There are a lot of men who just... Leave. And never come back. Parenting, even when the parents are still together, falls mostly on the woman. When we see a kid having a tantrum, most people wonder where is the mother.

I live in a country where child support is mandatory if you do not have the custody of your children, yet men still find ways to evade it. To me, that's the most disgusting, rat-like behavior. Your child needs to eat and you have money and won't pay? I hope you get fucked in the ass with a fork.

I do not have the data for other countries, but here, the total debt is up to $53,110,000.00 (US dollars for your convenience) and counting. Let that sink in a bit.

I have seen it all, truly. Not only are the family courts flooded with these kinds of cases, but men really try anything. From changing addresses to avoid being served, to simulating selling all their things so they can say they are bankrupt.

Viserys reminds me of those men. He is irresponsible. He has four children with his child bride, yet takes no role in parenting them. He can't even afford the basic human decency of treating them as children or pretending to care. He just washes his hands. And it makes me fucking angry, because it seems like no matter where I go, I can't escape it.

Children should be protected at all costs. And there are so many Viserys out there, it's not even funny.

#answered asks #viserys targaryen #also known as cristi angers her followers part 2

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the-sapphire-general · 6 years

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My Thoughts and Feelings About Lunafreya Nox Fleuret

It has been quite some time since I made a post like this, so I did not write the future posts I have been planning, but I wished to write this post before the others. It is an unexpected one since the idea was never one that I considered, but I now desperately want to reveal my own views on Final Fantasy 15's main heroine, Lunafreya Nox Fleuret, Princess and Oracle of Tenebrae. It will only be a single but lengthy post, so prepare yourselves for it. Major spoilers for both the game and the movie Kingsglaive will be included, so if you are unfamiliar with FFXV, stop here and watch the movie and play the game (in that order) to understand everything. Note that this will be a rant to an extent, so either be civil or leave. You have been warned, and I will not be obligated to repeat it again. This post is dedicated to @cellarhapsodos.

Lady Lunafreya, or simply Luna, is the Princess of Tenebrae, which was conquered by none other than the Nifelheim Empire. Her mother Queen Sylvia was killed in the process and has since been imprisoned for twelve years. Ravus, her brother, joined the empire thinking that King Regis Lucis Caelum abandoned him and let Tenebrae be claimed by the enemy. Growing up, Luna knew that she had a purpose just like her beloved, Noctis, Regis's son, and was determined to fulfill her goals as the Oracle to heal those from the Starscourge and assist Noctis into becoming the True King of Light to end the darkness that threatens to fall over Eos.

Now this all seems intriguing, but this is only scratching the surface. I am not going to just discuss her story. I will be discussing about Lunafreya herself. I will begin by explaining my reasons on writing this post in the first place. Apparently, Luna is hated by who knows how many people, their comments ranging from she is a weak and bland character, is completely useless, and has no purpose but to be Noctis' love interest. The list goes on, and I want to say something. Lunafreya does not deserve such hatred. Cue the dramatic gasps from the majority of Luna haters! Yes yes, my opinion differs from yours. Keep yourselves under control and let me continue. Luna has been accused of being a horrible Final Fantasy heroine, some saying she is the worst. Ummmm...What? How is she the worst character? Well, their arguments are these: She is useless, irrelevant to the plot, bland, robotic, has little screen time, sexist, weak, passive, and a damsel-in-distress. First of all, people can have their opinions, but they treat their opinions on Luna as if it is pure fact simply because they did not like some aspects about her. Though not all are like that, so I should not phrase it like that. Second, some also tend to go overboard with these opinions, implying that Luna should be despised by everyone.

Luna was responsible for her part in trying to save Eos from the Starscourge. She was the one who prevented it from getting worse while alive, and she healed those that were tainted by it. She, as the Oracle, helped those who needed her and without her, so many people would have been dead and the nights would have become longer and longer. And that happened when she died in the hands of Ardyn in Altissia. Darkness fell upon the world for the past ten years and people died and daytime no longer existed. Worse, some people turned into daemons! So when Luna died, the Starscourge advanced to such an extreme, nobody was safe.

Also, Luna had the Ring of Lucii, and she took it with her from Insomnia to Altissia despite the dangers of doing so just for Noctis to take it and fulfill his destiny as the King of Light, but guess what? It was her duty to take it to Noctis, and if she had not done her part, he would have never gotten the ring. When King Regis insisted on having her meet Noctis, Luna declined by saying the empire would follow her wherever she went. She protected Noctis from Nifelheim, even though she longed to see him after twelve years. More on this later.

Another thing to point out is Luna spoke to the gods. It is obvious that she did considering the vision of her standing before Titan. Before Noctis and his friends met them, Luna was already ahead of them so Noctis could participate in their trials. Awakening the gods, however, took a toll on her for it was killing her. In fact, healing people infected with the Starscourge must have done the same thing. But despite the possibility of death, Luna stayed strong and continued on her own journey to not only assist Noctis but to play her role in saving the world from darkness. Ravus even redeemed himself because his love for his sister was stronger than his hatred for losing his home to Nifelheim, and he wound up helping Noctis as well.

An Oracle is not an easy role to fill, and Luna knew that when she was young. She knew but did not express fear. Her fate, the loss of her mother, the twelve years in the lands of Nifelheim, did not phase Luna, and remained brave through and through even if it meant she might die. It was her duty to protect her people and restore light into the world. Even after she died, she still healed Noctis so he could survive Leviathan's trial. So if you remove Luna, Noctis does not participate in the trials, or if he managed to do so, he would have died by Leviathan and the world is doomed. Game over.

Next is Luna's personality. Arguments include she is robotic, emotionless, and bland. Clearly, they did not read or watch Twilight! Bella Swan fits that description, not Luna. Luna is kindhearted, compassionate, and selfless from beginning to end. She kept herself away from Noctis to protect him from Nifelheim. She helped Ravus change his affiliation from the empire to Noctis. She healed her people and gave them hope. She loved Noctis and healed him so he could survive. Luna placed everyone's interests before hers because she cares about them and assisted Noctis into fulfilling his destiny. She expressed subtle fear and doubt, but did not let it overcome her, and she did whatever it took to achieve her goals and assist Noctis. She was even a bit reckless, such as jumping from a crashing ship. People say she and Regis knew of a possible future. Personally, Luna would have made it alive if Nyx did not jump, but again, as Oracle, Luna knew about the future. That is something an Oracle can do if I am not mistaken: see the future. Or maybe she saw bits of it. Either way, Luna knew what she was doing. She was not a suicidal person. A suicidal character like her would not have waited for Nyx to help her. She would have fought back regardless if her opponents were dangerous, and she would have risked her life and possibly died too soon. She would have gone to Noctis even if Nifelheim would follow her and put her beloved and his friends in grave danger. She's stubborn and careless, but also clever and intelligent.

Speaking of Noctis...This sparked a lot of hatred, and I want to say this. Her goal is NOT just related to Noctis! People say she only exists to support Noctis. Noctis this, Noctis that! Luna did not focus entirely on Noctis if you paid attention to the movie and the game. She wanted to protect people, and she did everything she could from healing to preventing the Starscourge from advancing. She wanted to stay strong for everyone so she could fulfill her own destiny as the Oracle. She did not do all this just for Noctis. All of this was her choice aside from it being her duty as the Oracle because she was a good person who cared about others. Assisting Noctis and wanting to be with him were her secondary goals. What is wrong with wanting to help the one you love??? You would do the same would you? And what was bad about her wanting to be with him?? Luna kept in touch with Noctis for twelve years by writing to him. They knew each other as children prior to the invasion, so the romance was not forced in my book. Now if they never knew each other, then it would have been, but it is not. Although the marriage was intended to be an arranged marriage, that did not make a difference. Luna loved Noctis already, and he loved her back. They would have gotten married anyway even if it was not arranged. So Luna's desires to see Noctis again is not a weakness, it is not anti-feminist, and it is not bad. I mean, how would you feel if you had not met your beloved for years? Would you want to see them again?? Luna longed to be by Noctis' side, and she placed those interests aside to help those in need even if it hurt, and never had the chance to be with him until the afterlife. Those who say that love and romance make a female character anti-feminist or whatever should reevaluate their views or else it could make girls and women believe that if you are in love, you are not strong. That makes no sense. Yes, if a female character focuses only on her love for a man and that is all that defines her, then that is bad. But Luna?? Noctis does not define her. She does, and she has shown it countless times and people still are unable to see that.

I confess that I used to hate her. I really did. I was influenced by ridiculous feminazis like them, and I kept seeing her the way they did. Their arguments were my own, but just like with Ardyn, my friend (who I mentioned in the very beginning) convinced me that she was not the way I thought she was, and she was right. I reevaluated not just how I see Luna, but all my feminist beliefs in general. To put it this way, I now see the light. Lunafreya Nox Fleuret is a proactive heroine because of everything she had done. She is similar to Aeris Gainsborough, not entirely but there are some similarities? Like they love flowers, they are kind, compassionate. And I used to hate Aeris as well, but my friend made me rethink that as well. Like Aeris (or Aerith), Luna is a heroine in her own right. Though Aeris had more screen time and such...Well, I never said they were identical. lol?

The only argument I can agree with the fandom is that Luna does have little screen time. I see that, and I want to see more of her because she is a great character. She did so much between her departure of Insomnia and her arrival to Altissia, and I am curious about what happened during that time period. Yes, she died, but that does not make her weak either. She died for a bigger cause. Even after death, she still helped. She fulfilled her calling as the Oracle until the very end, and she did not want to die at first, but she accepted her fate for all of Eos, not just for Noctis. I nearly cried when she did when she was talking to Ravus about wanting to be with Noctis. Seeing that scene again to check out the additional content in one of the latest updates of the game made me feel the same way. Despite her little screen time, Luna was still interesting. So if a character has little screen time despite everything they have accomplished, they are terrible?? But what about, say, Rose Quartz from Steven Universe? She has little screen time, but she is still compelling. But Luna is not? That is rather hypocritical to me. Luna will have more focus on her! She is getting her own DLC. May I remind you that FFXV was in development for ten years and they wanted to release it already? They released it even though it was not finished. Why else are we getting DLC and additional cutscenes and such for the game??

Yes, she was not shown fighting during certain times where she could have. But think about it. When she was kidnapped, Luna waited for Nyx because if she were to fight, she would risk her life and her goal to not only take the ring to Noctis but to prevent Eos from falling into eternal darkness and dooming the entire world. And I admit, Luna's decision of letting Luche put the ring on was clever. She never even warned him about the consequences. It was gruesome, but clever. And no, she did not just stand and let him take the ring. She tried to run, so she is not passive. Now she did not fight. Like I said, she did not want to risk her life. She was clever enough to let him put the ring on because she knew what would happen. Though not fighting is not always the solution in her situation, so it is obvious that she will fight in her DLC.

What I hate is people judging Luna over petty things, and what set me off and leading me into writing this post is because someone said she could not be redeemed. Luna may not have been shown more often, but it is her goals and actions that matter. Luna is strong, and she does not have to be physically strong, speak loudly, and not show emotions to be strong. That is something that annoys me, and although I was saving this for my future posts regarding feminism, I will say this now. A strong female character is not an overly masculine, emotionless, weapon-wielding, butt-kicking woman who should not be interested in a man or show vulnerability or else it disempowers her as a character. Nowadays, female characters HAVE to be this way just to be strong, everybody is forgetting that female characters come in all shapes and sizes and that strong female characters mean compelling and well-written characters! And these same people believe that if a female character shows any feminine qualities such as kindness, optimism, wisdom, dresses, pink or purple or any feminine colors, make-up, jewelry, hearts, and so forth, then they are automatically weak and terrible.

None of those things are bad in a character. You just insulted a majority of women, real and fictional, who happen to be kind and optimistic, enjoy these things, and being involved in romance by calling them weak. Rose Quartz is feminine and her theme color is pink, yet people like her. Hypocritical much? Hate to break it to you, but Luna's appearance, personality, and relationship with Noctis does not make her weak. And just because she was in danger a few times, it did not make her a damsel-in-distress. There is nothing wrong with needing help to achieve her goals. I am still surprised that she did not show fear several times, especially when guns were aimed at her. I would have panicked, so I envy her for not even flinching or screaming. She's a strong-willed, independent, kindhearted, determined, and selfless woman that wants nothing but to protect others from darkness and reunite with the Prince she loves with all her heart.

Now not everyone hates Luna to the extreme, and not every one of those who are not fans of her are feminazis. But there are people who are like that, and I am simply stating that people take things out of proportion. I am not trying to generalize anyone or anything. People may say that she is weak or whatever it is I have mentioned, and that is alright. Their opinions are valid and I do not expect to change everyone’s minds because things do not work that way. Excuse me if I sounded as if my opinion is the correct one. It is not, but it is an opinion I wanted to share with others and it is an opinion that some can agree with, so please do not be offended. I like Lunafreya just like many others, others hate her, others have mixed feelings, and others are neutral, but it does not matter. We all have our opinions, so please let us respect them.

#lunafreya nox fleuret #my thoughts about her #final fantasy xv

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samwpmarleau · 7 years

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Why do people want Jon to be legitimate so bad? It's almost like they're buying into the stigma that being a bastard is bad and something to fix. And like you said, it's as simple as Rhaegar was married, Lyanna betrothed, and polygamy illegal. He's a bastard. And I really doubt Lyanna would be so naive (well her running away in itself is naive but different context imo) as to believe 'marrying' Rhaegar before her gods would somehow be noble or recognized.

Oh man. I have THINGS TO SAY.

For many people, I think he’s just a special snowflake and they want him to be legitimate so that he’s not “tainted” by bastardy or whatever and he gets to have Everything He’s Always Wanted™.

But also, I think it’s for how much of an identity crisis Jon has had with being a bastard and the irony that this scenario would bring to it. We’re inside Jon’s head so thoroughly and thus are keenly aware of how for his entire life he’s been at odds with his status, especially since he’s not the typical bastard. Catelyn is frigid towards him not because he’s illegitimate, but because Ned brought him home and has raised him alongside Robb, completely ignoring the shame it brings upon his wife.

Yet, Jon’s not the same as Robb — he has the same basic education, but he’s never been in line for Winterfell and by virtue of his very birth there was always an insurmountable divide between him and his siblings. Except for as much as Jon dislikes his place, he abides by it well — even when he’s presented with what he used to dream of (though note it says “later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams … even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal”), to become an actual Stark, he refuses it because he knows it would be a farce and that Winterfell belongs to Sansa, not him.

It stems too from him having no idea who his mother was. Obviously Ned can’t tell him the truth, but he doesn’t even tell him a lie. Was his mother a whore? A merchant’s daughter? Ashara Dayne? Wylla? Who was she? Jon (understandably) desperately wants her to be a respectable woman, but he’s told absolutely nothing about her so even that is merely a hope.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

The sad thing here is that we know Jon’s mother was beautiful, highborn, and kind, but Jon doesn’t. And he thinks of this constantly:

I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know.

He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.

Interestingly, his mentions of her fade as the series goes on, as he accepts who he is. He didn’t have any friends in Winterfell save (most of) his family, yet at the Wall he’s surrounded by people he considers not only friends, but brothers. Who actually like him. Then, where once he had thought he could never achieve any high position, he is elected Lord Commander. Sure, that command is of the Night’s Watch and not Winterfell, but the position has been held by many respectable men, and no one ranks higher than he does. He is in charge. People listen to him.

Enter that irony. For five books we have Jon slowly growing into himself, finding love (even if it’s dubious consent love) and friendship and honor and repute despite being a bastard, then we find out his parents were not only married but his mother was a Stark and his father was the Targaryen crown prince. If circumstances were different, Jon would have grown up as third in line to the Iron Throne behind Rhaegar and Aegon. But that could only happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, 100% legally, and if they could prove it and/or anyone actually believed them — it’s not enough that they simply had him, because then he could only ever be a legitimized bastard, who may have come before the girls in succession, we don’t really have precedent to say, but may equally have come dead last after Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Dany (possibly even Rhaella?).

They also focus on the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, and claim that he must be legitimate because then that title wouldn’t fit. This despite the fact that Dany is likely the “Prince” That Was Promised —

“No one ever looked for a girl,” [Aemon] said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. … Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

— and that Jon would still have princely blood even if he were a bastard. Both because Rhaegar lived and died as one, and because if everyone had lived and Jon were legitimized, he would then also be a prince, though not trueborn.

And we mustn’t forget that much of this bullshit has to do with people’s perceptions of Elia as well. Everyone and their grandmother says she would have been fine with it because she’s ~Dornish~ and Dornish people take ~paramours~ and so she wouldn’t care.

Never mind that the last time a Martell married a Targaryen, a Targaryen bastard set off five generations of war, the last of which occurred right on Elia’s doorstep and in which (probably) her uncle Lewyn earned his stripes.

Never mind that Rhaegar was not Dornish and by using the “paramour” excuse he would be disgustingly appropriating a culture to which he doesn’t belong.

Never mind that Rhaegar fathering a bastard, even an un-legitimized one, would present an extreme threat to Elia’s children. She’s Dornish, people are racist as hell towards her people (not to mention ableist towards her specifically), and love the Starks — what happens if Westeros decides one day they’re not into having a half-Dornish king and instead back Jon? What happens if Lyanna isn’t content with her son playing second fiddle?

What happens if Rhaegar decides Jon is a better choice, especially if he changes his mind about Aegon having the song of ice and fire, and either sets Aegon and Rhaenys aside or declares Jon his heir over Aegon? Brandon was betrothed to a Tully, Ned was warded with Robert in the Vale, and Tywin hated Aerys — that’s a ridiculously powerful bloc that could oppose Elia’s children, who would have only Dorne and maybe a handful of other houses in support.

Elia would never be on board with that. I could see her putting up with Rhaegar having a mistress, because almost every guy in this series has one, but not a highborn one, and not having a child on one. And the way he went about it? By abandoning a newly postpartum Elia who nearly died giving birth to an heir who looked exactly like him, running off with the 15-year-old only daughter of a Lord Paramount, not leaving so much as a note or letting Lyanna tell her family she’s all right, disappearing for over a year, not returning even when Brandon and Rickard were killed or when war broke out or when his wife and children were taken hostage, then being so overconfident about winning on the Trident that he lost in gruesome fashion.

He caused not only the downfall of his own house, but crippled the Starks (Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all die, then Benjen takes the black shortly after the war) and the Dornish (10,000 spears were extorted from Doran, Elia was raped and murdered, their children were brutally killed, Lewyn was killed in battle, Arthur was killed, and Ashara committed suicide), put the Baratheons and Lannisters in power, and ruined the prophecy as he’d interpreted it.

Had Rhaegar not been so politically braindead, none of that would have happened. So no, Elia would have hated him for that, not signed off on it. Fuck that noise. People often talk about paramours as though every Dornish person takes one and that it’s not cheating, which is simply not true. Oberyn had one, but Oberyn was not married, the occasional additional liaisons he took were not only approved by Ellaria, but they participated in those liaisons together, and he and Ellaria were in a committed relationship for 14-plus years.

We also really don’t have that many examples of Dornish people taking paramours at all:

Ellaria

Neither she nor Oberyn were married, and they were both completely devoted and faithful to one another.

Old Lord Yronwood’s that Oberyn slept with

Which, incidentally, we don’t know that Yronwood was cheating at all. Perhaps Yronwood was a widower, or his wife was fine with it, or his wife joined in, we don’t know the details.

Lewyn

Hey guess what! He wasn’t married, and was completely faithful to her, exactly like Oberyn.

Daemon Sand

There were rumors that he and Oberyn were lovers (which, gross, on so many levels), but we have only the one mention and no proof. Arianne maybe counts here as well, depending on your definition.

Drinkwater twins

Cletus suggested Quentyn take one of them as a paramour after he was married, but again we don’t know the details of that hypothetical, and Quentyn rejected it anyway.

Many Dornishmen took women of the Rhoynar for paramours; however, presumably that would have been more for purposes of alliance and to permanently join the two races.

Sylvenna Sand

She was a whore in King’s Landing who was the paramour of Essie, who was also a whore, so yet again, no adultery there.

Now, the text often refers to mistresses as paramours, but they are used interchangeably outside of Dorne. Within Dorne, they’re a separate thing. And, as you can see from the above, no one except maybe Lord Yronwood was married.

Rhaegar was. With two small children. Lyanna was betrothed. Their affair was full-blown adultery, none of this “paramour” business. Once more I say: fuck that noise.

Also, like … GRRM once said Rhaegar was a “lovestruck prince” and Barristan said he “loved his lady Lyanna” (neither sentiment is one I believe), but we’re never told anything of Lyanna’s thoughts on the matter. I am baffled as to where people get the idea she would agree to a marriage with Rhaegar.

She wanted out of her betrothal to Robert because he was not faithful, why would she enter into polygamy?? Why would she agree to get pregnant at 15?? She’s compared to Arya constantly — can you see Arya ever doing all of that?? It makes no sense!

Not that they could even get married. The Faith prohibits polygamy, and we have no examples of people in the North (save beyond the Wall, which is not in the Seven Kingdoms) ever having polygamous marriages either. So even if there were some kind of “ceremony,” it would never hold up.

Anyway. People are dumb.

#jon snow #rhaegar targaryen #lyanna stark #asoiaf #anonymous

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