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lan-octopie · 25 days

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ON GHOSTS AND DEMONS: Wei Wuxian's "demonic" cultivation?

There are a few big misconceptions I have repeatedly seen in English-speaking fandom about things that are fundamental to the story of MDZS. One of them is this—

Wei Wuxian is not a demonic cultivator.

To prove this, let's take a deep dive into the original Chinese text of MDZS.

(Adapted from my original gdoc posted on Twitter on May 27, 2022. All translations my own unless otherwise stated.)

Demon vs. ghost

Let's start from the very basics. In addition to orthodox cultivation using spiritual energy and a golden core, there are two other forms of cultivation that are mentioned in the novel:

魔道 (mó dào), or “demon cultivation/path.”

鬼道 (guǐ dào), or “ghost cultivation/path.”

To be clear, 魔 mo "demons" and 鬼 gui "ghosts" (and thus their respective cultivation/paths) are not interchangeable because of the in-universe worldbuilding within MDZS. Using the characters in the term 妖魔鬼怪 "monsters," MXTX created four distinct categories of beings, each of which has a strict definition in the novel. From chapter 4 (jjwxc ch 13):

妖者非人之活物所化; 魔者生人所化; 鬼者死者所化; 怪者非人之死物所化。 Yāo (妖) are transformed from non-human living beings; mó (魔) are transformed from living people; guǐ (鬼) are transformed from the deceased; guài (怪) are transformed from non-human dead beings.

And of course, WWX hoards all the ghost-type pokemon monsters at the Phoenix Mountain tournament, and he only exerts control over corpses, spirits, and the like (aka people who have already died). (As opposed to Xue Yang, who appears to have been actively trying to make 魔 "demons" out of living people with those "living corpses" of his, perhaps.) (And, ironically, in order to avoid showing necromancy / zombies on screen, CQL technically does show WWX practicing demon cultivation because everyone is "supposedly alive" even when they're corpses? Which is, funnily enough, far worse morally in the MDZS universe, lol.)

So, intuitively at least, we know that WWX must be practicing ghost cultivation—now let's look at some concrete examples from the book.

Running the numbers

1) 魔道 (mó dào) means “demon cultivation.” As such, it must use living humans.

魔道 appears one (1) time in the novel.

Yes, once. The only time it appears is in the term 魔道祖师 modao zushi, or the namesake of the novel, in chapter 2. This is a title the general public has given him through rumors:

魏无羡好歹也被人叫了这么多年无上邪尊啦、魔道祖师啦之类的称号，这种一看就知道不是什么好东西的阵法，他自然了如指掌。 Wei Wuxian wasn’t called titles like “The Evil Overlord,” “The Founder of Demon Cultivation,” and so on over the years by others for nothing—he knew these sorts of obviously shady formations like the back of his hand.

2) 鬼道 (guǐ dào) means “ghost cultivation.” As such, it must use dead humans.

鬼道 appears 12 times in the novel.

Here is the first instance that 鬼道 appears, which I believe is the first time Wei Wuxian's method of cultivation is properly introduced. From chapter 3 (jjwxc ch 8):

蓝忘机 […] 对魏无羡修鬼道一事极不认可。 Lan Wangji […] had never approved of the fact that Wei Wuxian practiced ghost cultivation.

Here's another quote from chapter 15 (jjwxc ch 71) for funsies:

蓝忘机看着他，似乎一眼就看出他只是随口敷衍，吸了一口气，道：“魏婴。” Lan Wangji looked at him as if he saw through his half-hearted bluff. He took in a breath, then said, “Wei Ying.” 他执拗地道：“鬼道损身，损心性。” He stubbornly continued, “Ghost cultivation harms one’s body, and harms one’s nature.”

3) 邪魔歪道 (xiemowaidao) means heretical path/immoral methods/evil practices/underhanded means/etc—e.g., lying, cheating, stealing, bribery, and so on.

It appears ~24 times in the novel.

I mention this last term because it is often used to refer to Wei Wuxian's cultivation, but as a pejorative. Every instance of 邪魔歪道 is said by or to quote someone looking down upon Wei Wuxian’s cultivation (Jin Zixun, Jin Ling, etc.) and referring to it derogatorily, whereas every instance of 鬼道 guidao/ghost dao is said by someone discussing it neutrally and/or factually (Lan Jingyi, Lan Wangji, Wei Wuxian himself, random cultivators at discussion conferences, the narration, etc.). Here is a pertinent example with Jin Ling (derogatory) and Lan Jingyi (neutral) in chapter 9 (jjwxc ch 43):

金凌怒道：“是在谈论薛洋，我说的不对吗？薛洋干了什么？他是个禽兽不如的人渣，魏婴比他更让人恶心！什么叫‘不能一概而论’？这种邪魔歪道留在世上就是祸害，就是该统统都杀光，死光，灭绝！” “We are discussing Xue Yang,” Jin Ling said angrily. “Am I wrong? What did Xue Yang do? He’s scum that’s lower than a beast, and Wei Ying is even more disgusting than him! What do you mean ‘don’t make sweeping generalizations?’ As long as those practicing this kind of demonic, heretical path are alive, they’ll continue to bring disaster. We should slaughter all of them, kill all of them, annihilate them once and for all!” 温宁动了动，魏无羡摆手示意他静止。只听蓝景仪也加入了，嚷道：“你发这么大火干什么？思追又没说魏无羡不该杀，他只是说修鬼道的也不一定全都是薛洋这种人，你有必要乱摔东西吗？那个我还没吃呢……” Wen Ning shuffled around. Wei Wuxian gestured at him to stay still, only to hear Lan Jingyi also join the fray, bellowing, “Why are you getting so riled up? It’s not like Sizhui said Wei Wuxian shouldn’t have been killed. All he said was that people who practice ghost cultivation aren’t necessarily all like Xue Yang. Do you have to go around breaking things? I didn’t even get to eat any of that yet…”

Tl;dr—Wei Wuxian does not 修魔道 practice demon cultivation. When Wei Wuxian’s craft is discussed in a neutral and factual manner, it is referred to as 鬼道 ghost dao.

In fact, Wei Wuxian’s imitators are also referred to explicitly as 鬼道修士 ghost cultivators.

魏无羡早就听说过，这些年来江澄到处抓疑似夺舍重生的鬼道修士，把这些人通通押回莲花坞严刑拷打。 Wei Wuxian had heard a while back that over the past few years, Jiang Cheng had gone around snatching any ghost cultivator suspected of being possessed or reborn, detaining them in Lotus Pier to interrogate them using torture.

So why the confusion?

Of course, there is the matter of the novel's title, which I will get into in a second. But the real issue is a matter of translation.

The idea that WWX uses "demonic cultivation" is a misconception in English-speaking fandom due to issues with the translation of terminology. Of note, EXR actually did translate 鬼道 guidao as "ghostly path" most of the time, though there were at least 3 instances of "demonic" and 1 instance of "dark," especially regarding the first few.

However, this misconception was perpetuated (and arguably worsened) by 7S's official translation, which not only mistranslated additional terms as "demonic cultivation/path" (at least in book 1), but also consistently mistranslated every instance of 鬼道 as "demonic cultivation/path."

So why is this book called 魔道祖师, commonly translated as "Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation?"

One possibility is one posed in Chinese-language meta online, which often cites that WWX himself is a sort of 魔 demon. While this may be true—after all, he can hear the voices of the dead—it doesn't quite explain the fact that the title sets him up to be the 祖师 or "founder."

My take is that this novel is very much concerned with hearsay vs. truth. This is one of the many monikers WWX is given by the public, who collectively view him as evil. (Also of note is that the non-cultivator public is not aware of all the nuances that cultivators learn re: distinctions between the 妖魔鬼怪 monsters.) In the quote from earlier, note that the first title we're given is actually 无上邪尊 “The Evil Overlord,” then 魔道祖师 "The Founder of Demon Cultivation." Like, what can that be other than MXTX telling us, "please take both of these with a HUGE grain of salt, lol."

(And not only the title, but the very first line—"魏无羡死了。" / "Wei Wuxian is dead."—is a lie.)

I think the title is genius, honestly. It intentionally makes readers come into the novel with preconceived notions that Wei Wuxian practices 魔道 demon cultivation and evil techniques—just like the public in the story. What better way to tell a story warning about the dangers of how easy it is to fall for misinformation and jump to incorrect conclusions?

(Though, in our case, perhaps it worked a little too well.)

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lan-octopie · 2 months

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pssssst hey. hey. free and expansive database of folk and fairy tales. you can thank me later

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lan-octopie · 2 months

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My German 🇩🇪 Masterlist

Resources:

Some other German tumblr blogs for German learners

German Sign Language Resources

Vocab, grammar, idioms:

A little text style guide

LGBT+ Vocab

Idioms: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10

German idioms with colours 🎨🖌️

Some funny German words #1, #2, #3

Fun German animal names

Movies, TV shows, books, music:

Movies/TV shows:

German TV show, movie, & book recommendations for German learners

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German Comedy Show from the 90s: "Kentucky Schreit Ficken"

Some classic German TV shows I watched as a child & teenager

Books:

German TV show, movie, & book recommendations for German learners

German comic books / graphic novels

Books about German folklore, myths, and legends

German Publishers & Book Shops

Some classic German literature recommendations

Some disturbing German children’s stories

Music:

German-speaking Singers / Bands

German folk music / traditional children's songs

German Culture & Other Stuff:

German School & Education System

The Berlin Wall (1961-1989)

20 German culture things

German bread

The "Nürburgring"

German food, desserts/sweet snacks & cakes

German currency before the Euro (€): "Deutsche Mark"

Biggest ethnic groups in Germany

German sausages

Some content creators who show what it's like living in Germany

1st of May celebrations in Germany

How to become a beekeeper in Germany 🌸🐝🍯

The German font "Sütterlin"

German Comedy Show "Knallerfrauen"

Some Iconic German Characters

Supplemental ID for trans people in Germany 🏳️‍⚧️

Germans have two different names for dandelions

German ‘Kraut’ & ‘Kohl’

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German Seasons:

Early spring in Germany

German Shorthand / Stenography:

Learning stenography: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13

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lan-octopie · 2 months

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p1-5 Sith Skywalker AUDIO but take the children

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lan-octopie · 2 months

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Honestly, it's so exhausting looking through both the pro jedi tags and the anti jedi tags. Like both of them make valid points, but both sometimes sound kinda silly. Like sometimes the pro jedi stuff will say the jedi did nothing wrong and I'm like hmm I don't think that's totally true and there's anti jedi stuff that's like anakin skywalker did nothing wrong and I'm like did we watch the same movie?

And then the pro jedi tags say despite whatever flaws they may have had, the jedi order ultimately wanted peace and to protect others and to help and I'm like yes that's true and then there's anti jedi that are like well the jedi shouldn't have used the clones as slave /child soldiers nor used their padawans as commanders and I'm like yea that's true too.

Like how do other fans deal with this? This is kinda why I stick to looking at fanart and memes on tumblr cause this stuff drains me.

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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Language Resources Masterpost

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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i've seen a post the other day that was a some kind of analysis of a scene from tcw blue shadow virus arc where it was stated that anakin forgot about his padawan in favour of padme after they were both rescued from that lab with the blue shadow virus.

however i've recently rewatched the said arc and i cannot exactly agree that anakin forgot about anyone? when the virus is set loose, the lab is sealed and obi-wan and anakin go back to theed, they're immediately told there's an antidote on a planet iego and anakin wants to go there the very next second because, and i almost quote, his padawan and padme are trapped in the lab. he doesn't forget about either of them through the episode. when he and obi-wan talk about them, they talk about them both.

now, he does kind of disregard the clones' lives but no more than any other character so far? besides general krell or whatever was that guy's name from the incident on umbara. the clones are generally treated horribly, just as separatists droids are, anakin isn't even the worst here.

also, back to padme, before they're all rescued padme and ahsoka call obi-wan and anakin, saying that they destroyed all the droids and the planet is safe. then padme tells anakin to never unseal the lab and says her goodbyes to him, clearly thinking she's going to die soon. so i really cannot begrudge at a man, who thought his wife was going to die so very very soon, for running straight to her to check on her. and i don't quite see her praise about ahsoka as a reminder to him about his padawan since he has never forgotten about her in the first place. and he made sure to praise her, it's not like he could do more after the rescue than he'd already done for all the victims of the virus.

and there was also a point about how padme was less sick than ahsoka. yeah, padme was exposed to the virus later than ahsoka but if you closely, ahsoka is a little bit more resistant to the virus than humans. like, when she and padme call anakin and obi-wan, padme looks almost as bad as ahsoka even though she fell ill later than her. besides, viruses tend influence different people differently, and i believe that is also the case here, since there's at least one clone who presumably died only after a few hours of getting ill. this all, of course, doesn't excuse anyone treating ahsoka's condition lighter than padme's. and nobody does treat it lightly? and certainly not anakin.

(the virus is kind of weird by the way. if it kills so quickly how can it be carried from a person to person? shouldn't it be a little slower or something...)

so these are my thoughts. you don't have to agree with me, that's fine, i don't exactly need to know about that. this is just what i've seen myself and how i interpreted it.

#anakin skywalker #padme amidala #ahsoka tano #star wars the clone wars #blue shadow arc #pro jedi dni #please i don't want any arguements i dont have time for that #just my personal thoughts

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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MDZS Audio Drama Listening Guide

AKA Lace has listened to the Audio Drama an unholy amount of times and might as well put her knowledge to good use

(Suibian Subs) (NanaBeingNana) (Episode Guide by pumpkinpaix) (Purchasing guide for iOS)

NOTE: This is my own, personal opinion on what’s the preferable order to watch the MDZS Audio Drama extras.

The AD is by far the most accurate adaptation we have, and not only it follows the novel 1:1, it adds quite a lot of content that had only been left implied or left off-screen in the original text. However, there are also some events that do happen in the novel, but had to be put aside in an extra episode, either because of time restraints or for the sake of pacing. So, I’ve tried to set up this list to compensate it! The order is either based on at which point we learn such events in the novel, or if this event isn’t in the text, then it’s based on what I believe the best time to listen to the extra would be.

If you feel overwhelmed by the amount of extras and don’t know where to start, hold my hand and i’ll show you the way (*•̀ᴗ•́*)و

Keep reading

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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I hate the “no attachments” rhetoric so much and I hate that both Ahsoka and Luke in Mando and TBOBF fell straight back into it. Cuz they especially should know more than anyone that the feelings of isolation, feeling like you’re not in a safe space to healthily process your emotions—which requires actually feeling them and being in an environment where you’re allowed to feel them—and feeling like you have a support system where you can speak your feelings without judgment to get guidance and support is REQUIRED for Jedi to stay on the light side. Cuz loneliness, feeling like a burden, feeling like if you have one bad emotion it makes you all bad because of rules around feelings that are unrealistic and too rigorous makes you way more susceptible to the dark side.

Trying to beat bad emotions out of people completely is unrealistic. Expecting literal children to not feel those feelings and just know what to do with them cuz you’ve created a space where those feelings are forbidden is unrealistic. Pushing feelings and emotions down and “burying” them (re: obi wan telling luke “bury your feelings deep down” in ROTJ) and expecting those people to be perfectly healthy is unrealistic. Wanting this level of control over people, their thoughts, and their emotions, and this black and white thinking is not only toxic and dangerous, but is akin to cult culture. The PT era Jedi were extremists in this way and just too blind and couldn’t accept any criticism enough to see it because for some reason, a bunch of old guys decided evolution was not allowed and they’d just keep running the system the same way they always had with no room for change and that would somehow be this foolproof path to survival—which is a complaint a lot of people have about our current irl political system and is causing a lot of damage, btw.

Like wasn’t that the whole point of showing the Jedi’s fall? And doesn’t clone wars especially show how this thinking created all these cracks in the system that Palpatine was easily able to exploit and manipulate and Anakin was just someone who wanted change in the order and he was ostracized for it, so Palpatine latched onto him and Anakin was like “oh finally someone values me,” just to be manipulated and abused and have his whole life blown up to the point that he thought the empire was his only option (obv not excusing the atrocities, just saying I can see how he got to where he did mentally by ROTS)? Like he literally tells Luke that they can team up to overthrow the emperor and in ROTJ, when Luke tries to get him to run with him pre-throne room battle, he says “it’s too late for me,” so he KNOWS this is bad and only going to get worse, but has resigned himself to it.

Like wasn’t the whole point of the OT and the “I can’t kill my own father/there’s still good in him/I can turn him back to the good side” meant to prove that Jedi DO NEED healthy connections in order to thrive and stay on the light side? If they wanna forbid anything, they should be forbidding possession and control, but the PT Jedi Council instead used that for their own benefit and lacked any self awareness to see they’d just become what they were preaching against.

Like give me a post-OT Jedi council who teaches healthy connection and letting things go that aren’t meant for you to control and that friendships and relationships can be powerful things that bring you back to the light in your darkest moments, and a more Legends-esque New Jedi Order that values emotional health and well-being and is a safe space for not only the galaxy, but Force sensitives, no matter how they’re built instead of trying to force everyone into the same box. This is the order I wanted to see Luke cultivate in canon and I will forever be salty that this isn’t what we got.

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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I hear a lot of anti-Jedi and pro-Jedi going back and forth on this platform, but I wonder if we're only dealing in absolutes. That's it, everyone on tumblr is a Sith. Confirmed.

But, seriously (I was serious), are the Jedi good? Are they evil? Are they somewhere inbetween? And what is the system they support? Are they being their 'best selves' by the twilight years of the Republic? Am I a jerk? Are they jerks? Are you a jerk? Well... let's look at both sides and canon as it is, and see where it goes.

Should we ignore the problems and implications?

Dogma: "No! We have orders! We have to go through with this!"

First things first, let's start with negativity, because that's life possibly. There are a number of criticisms which are levelled against the Jedi in the canon. The Star Wars writers didn't always just put scenes and lines in for fun.

Slick: "It's the Jedi who keep my brothers enslaved. We serve at your whim. We do your bidding. I just wanted something more."

The Jedi are accused of slavery in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, which was created by George Lucas as Executive Producer, along with Dave Filoni and a whole host of writers working in collaboration. When Slick accuses the Jedi of being his and other clones' slave masters, it is never refuted by any of the characters, even Obi-Wan and Anakin who he is speaking to. It's never refused by the narrative at all.

Canonically, the Jedi as citizens and being military generals act as the clones superiors and also masters by proxy in the command chain. Slick's accusation is that the Jedi "keep [his] brothers" enslaved, not that they even necessarily enslaved them in the first place. He is indicating that the Jedi have power and agency, which they do as natborn citizens, but they don't direct it for justice and meaningful change in regards to clone rights.

Satine Kryze: "I remember a time when Jedi were not Generals, but peacekeepers."

Now, people have argued that the Jedi do help the clones and they are "in charge of [the clones] care", as Master Shaak Ti says during a continuing arguement where her and Nala Se debated on who Tup, Fives and clones in general belonged to as "property". The Jedi could think themselves better caretakers of the clones troopers than natborn officers like Tarkin, although this verges on character speculation. Canonically, we do see evidence of care, such as Shaak Ti advocating for Domino Squad and calling them "living beings" that didn't deserve to be "cast aside", Mace and Plo Koon and other Jedi do show concern for their men's lives.

But, arguably it doesn't account for much when the Jedi are still working in the framework and structures of slavery instead of protesting it. Being kind to clones doesn't mean much when you prop up the meat-grinder of a system that uses them as cannon fodder.

This is exemplified in the show itself.

Ahsoka: "It's every citizen's duty to challenge their leaders, to keep them honest, and hold them accountable if they're not.”

Unjust actors and systems are to be challenged. The Jedi being nice isn't an absolution for their participation in this system, just as a slave master or a deputy slave master being nice in any context doesn't change the fact that they are still in command of slaves getting thrown into the meat grinder every day. If you support an unjust system, you bear responsibility.

And, moreover, despite moments of compassion from Jedi, for people who value life, the Jedi as an organisation still show a concerning ease with clone death as the war progresses. The Citadel Arc is a great example of this. As Clone Trooper Charger falls to his death and collides with a shock mine, Obi-Wan sasses "Well, they know we're here now" as the other clones still are reaching out in horror. Every time a clone dies on that mission, they leave them behind, even Echo (who turns out to still be alive and is captured by the enemy and tortured). However, despite the urgency of the mission, when Jedi Master Even Piell dies, the Jedi pause the mission to give him a funeral and burial even though the enemy is closing in. If there was ever a message that the Jedi value their slave soldiers' lives less, this is it.

Further evidence includes the fact that Jedi Master Pong Krell's casualty numbers were well-known in the military, to point Torrent Company were openly debating them, and yet no other Jedi General had felt the need to propose a military investigation. Additionally, when the Jedi were fed the cover story the inhibitor chips in their men's brain were just designed to make them less aggressive and more docile, there is no evidence they protested this mental violation. Another neglect in a series of many. Taking this into regard, I think the unfortunate implications are clear.

Perhaps the Jedi should find better use for their mind tricks and lightsabers than cutting up droids and planetary militias all while propping up an unjust regime?

Master enablers

Jedi Master Dooku: "The Jedi blindly serve a corrupt Senate that fails the Republic it represents."

Canonically, the Jedi are deeply flawed as an organisation. They are politically centrist in a way that does not benefit either themselves or the Republic in end, shown to be enablers that uphold the system and law as it is, regardless of how unjust.

How can the Jedi have the high ground when they appease a Senate that supports slavery regardless of how the writers try to downplay it? How can they be morally righteous when they bow down, without much resistance if at all, to such system that uses slave soldiers? Clones die under Jedi command, they work in the Jedi Temple as both soldiers and technicians. The Jedi claim they just can't get involved in changing the system because it's beyond their mandate when what's on their doorstep, what's in their temple, is slavery, slavery that they even benefit from arguably to even maintain their transports and technical systems.

For any person or group in any system, there's a breaking point where things have gone too far, but how much one tolerates up until that point says a lot about their moral character. The Jedi were drafted by the Chancellor (Oh you) and perhaps they thought being 'kind' to the clones when they interacted with them was enough, but it wasn't. And while the Jedi continue to believe in the Republic far beyond acceptable, victims mount.

During the Wrong Jedi Arc, the Jedi Order also show themselves in bad light. It would have been one thing to believe Ahsoka was guilty and leave it at that, yet they practically threw Ahsoka under the bus for politics in reality. Mace kept talking about the politics, essentially showing Jedi PR was a more important factor than Ahsoka's life.

Mace Windu: "I understand your sentiment, Obi-Wan. But, if the council does as you suggest. It could be seen as an act of opposition to the Senate. I'm afraid we have little choice."

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan advocated for Ahsoka briefly, expressing doubts at her guilt, but at best casts a vote in her favour when he knows it won't be enough. Give it to Anakin in this instance, at least he did an actual private investigate to prevent a wrongful conviction instead of sitting back. Like Asajj Ventress said when confronted by Anakin, the Order abandoned Ahsoka and appease a Senate that supports authoritarian policies, kangaroo court trials and a slave army. What a state to die for.

Ahsoka: “This is why the people have lost faith in the Jedi. I had, too, until I was reminded of what the Order means to people who truly need us.”

How can the Jedi believe in the Republic to the point they were surprised when they got inevitably screwed over? Again, the narrative supports the idea the Jedi have lost their way and become enforcers for the Senate, however fascist and dangerous it has clearly become. You kind of have to have in order to become key leaders of a slave army when you were peacekeepers beforehand. The Republic is failing, but so are the Jedi. They fight the war with the tools they are given, from their lightsabers to their slave soldiers, with no solution or appropriate concern for the legislative catastrophe happening at the heart of the Republic until they realise Palpatine's been in a little long with his executive powers. They enforce laws, unjust systems and follow orders.

Fives: "I'm sorry. I cannot just follow orders when I know they're wrong. Especially when lives are at stake."

Captain Rex: "You will if you support the system we fight for."

Fives: "I do support it. I do! But I am not just another number! None of us are!"

TCW shows us that following rules and regulations when they're immoral is the wrong course of action, yet no matter the signs and warning, the Jedi continue to play into Palpatine's hands with their misguided patriotism as the Republic becomes increasing draconian and despotic. The most problematic factor about the Jedi is that they don't acknowledge the problems and the fact the clones' situation is unacceptable on every ground. They don't acknowledge the clones' situation, they don't acknowledge the Republic is bad or try to think of solutions to that even if they don't work. The situation is complicated, but the Jedi went along with bad options when they should have known what the Republic was by this point. How can the Jedi enforce justice when they enforce the corruption of it?

The Jedi continue to believe in the Republic and their part in he hierarchy when it seems more akin to a hostage situation with slaves in the balance. If they're blind, they're fools. If they knew, they're knowing enablers.

A tight spot

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic... before the dark times... before the empire."

Now, the flaws in the Jedi are clear, but it's all well and good to critique them. What could the Jedi have done effectively instead? If the Jedi were more keyed in on the Republic's unsalvageable system and decided to be proactive in regards to it, what could they do realistically? Aside from the emotional weight of getting people to abandon their home and a multi-generation relationship the stretches back centuries and centuries, the logistics of getting 10,000 people to desert and transporting them without the Republic and GAR noticing and stepping in feels unrealistic. Not only this, but they'd be ditching the clones to slavery yet again, as it's not like the Jedi can all desert and take the clones with them like they're plushie toys. Each clone is a different individual and deprogramming child soldiers is difficult.

People like Dogma, Neyo and Bacara wouldn't canonically desert without the right circumstances, Captain Rex wouldn't just desert with Anakin, nor could Obi-Wan sashay Commander Cody and his troops away like some of the fandom thinks. A lot of clones were indoctrinated to be loyal to the Republic from a young age. If the Jedi had just flat out tried desert, Order 66 would have likely happened earlier and Palpatine would have easily painted the Jedi as traitors.

Of course, there are the inhibitor chips as also a factor, but we can only judge the moral character of the Jedi based on the knowledge they did have and what they chose to do with it.

Barriss Offee: "An army fighting for the dark side. Fallen from the light we hold so dear. This Republic is failing. It's only a matter of time."

However, this is no excuse for the Jedi Order choosing the worst option out of a bad bunch. The Jedi crossed the moral precipice. They crossed it ever since AOTC when they decided that indoctrinated, slave soldier of dubious origin were just what they needed to throw into the desert meatgrinder that is Geonosis as the war started. There reasons make sense in their way, there's millions of units of droid army marching their way and the Republic and Senate have only a ten-thousand strong Jedi and the Judicial Forces. At the same time, the reasons for that humanitarian crisis aren't justifications. 'Cool motive. Still slavery' applies here.

Ethically, Yoda and Mace shouldn't have just gone along with the draft without any counter-strategy, especially if they cared about the clones as human beings and a people. They could have pretended cooperation and done discreet resistance at least. Of course, the Jedi even if they resisted weren't probably gonna have a happy ending, as generations under Republic thumb had neutered them and taken their passion and power, but they would have taken the moral and right action.

Instead, the Jedi remain the face of the war effort, using a Trojan Horse slave army just given to them with no real protest. If the Star Wars had truly wanted the Jedi to be wholly good, they'd have had them be more begrudging, cynical and weary at being pressured and coerced by the state. There'd be growing Anti-Republic sentiment, which would have been a start. Rebellion, dissent and mutiny would have been even more valuable and expected. Instead, the Jedi Order are loyal to the regime until the very last moments of the war.

In Conclusion

In the twilight years of the Republic, Palpatine really used every weakness of the Jedi against them. As an organisation, the Jedi really can't save themselves. Individuals can, as shown by Ahsoka leaving, but the Republic destroyed the Jedi, it took their soul, it bureaucratised and militarised their culture, and the Jedi just slid down that slope. That's part of why the people felt abandoned by the Jedi, as the Jedi were too melded to the system both functionally and idealistically, trapped in the snake, them and what they stood for slowly digested as they safeguarded and enforced unjust status quos. Even when Dooku was young, as The Tales of the Jedi said, they were already damned. Ahsoka left, every Jedi should have at that point. The Republic definitely would fight an en masse desertion, but it'd have been the right thing to do.

Some Jedi realised and left, others were too committed the belief of a Jedi Order that had become a shadow of what it was. The Jedi are a warning of what happens when governments, hierarchies and religion connect and influence each other for centuries. At the same time, adult Jedi were responsible for their actions, and each could have done more for the clones than they did.

Fives: "We must be trusted to make the right decision, especially when the orders we are given are wrong!"

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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Masterlist of all my anti-Jedi posts

The Meta:

The divide between Prequels era fans Here

The way you take the story depends on how you look at it Here

The Jedi's downfall is a tragedy and this inevitable and that doesn't mean I support genocide wtf??? Here

The Clone Wars both wants the Jedi to be unquestionably good and be three dimensional and these things conflict Here

The Republic and the Jedi are shown to have fallen in the canon but the audience overlooks it cause the Separatists are the bad guys Here

Why are we treating the massacre of the Tusken Raiders so lightly???? Here

The Jedi being the issue:

The Jedi Order is itself flawed Here

The Jedi's actions are the issue, it doesn't actually matter how they internally handle their emotions in the face of those actions Here

The Jedi encourage emotional repression, thanks Here

My issue with the Jedi's attitude towards attachment Here

The Jedi aren't impartial they just don't care Here

The Jedi having all the force sensitive kids is weird actually Here

The Clone issue:

The clones are slaves and we need to acknowledge that Here

On a similar note, there is no AU where the clones have free will that is consistent with the canon Here

Anakin:

Anakin's fears are valid actually Here

How can Anakin be too old to become a Jedi, how is this not alarming to you Here

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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Some of the discussion that happens within the Star Wars fandom, particularly discussion of the Jedi, can be really upsetting to observe if you have certain disabilities. In fact, I’m having a hard time even liking the Jedi right now because I can’t help but associate them with some really ableist takes that I’ve seen in their defense.

Let me explain: a lot of people with certain disabilities (such as autism, ADHD, bipolar disorder, and C-PTSD) deal with something called emotion dysregulation, which means that you feel emotions more intensely than the average person and that this strong emotional state sticks around for far longer than it should. When you have emotional regulation issues, an event that might make somebody else a bit sad or mildly frustrated has the ability to put you out of commission for hours or even an entire day. Emotion dysregulation is very stigmatized, even in people who go out of their way to avoid harming people or lashing out while dealing with an episode. People with this specific issue are often told that they are “dramatic”, “attention seeking”, or “future abusers” for what amounts to an automatic emotional response that a person cannot control. This constant pushback forms a metaphorical blister that can easily be popped back open when you see anything that reminds you of what caused it in the first place.

Now, let’s move on to the Jedi. While it can be argued that their teachings were intended to instruct people to reign in their BEHAVIOR as a result of their emotions, several lines in the fist six movies sound an awful lot like they are condemning having negative emotions at all. Yoda literally tells both Luke and Anakin that emotions like fear and anger BY THEMSELVES are of the Dark Side, and these lines were very difficult for a lot of people who have dealt with trauma, neurodivergence, or other issues that cause “big emotions”. These lines, intentionally or not, mirror a lot of the things that real people have said to those of us dealing with emotion dysregulation, and people have every right to talk about this in their own spaces unmolested.

Some of the defenses of the Jedi in the context of how they are instructed to deal with their emotions come off as dismissive at best and ableist at worst. Yes, if you dig through Star Wars canon enough, you can find portrayals of the Jedi and emotions that point to a more nuanced view where choices and actions are the source of evil rather than the emotions, but this does not change the fact that the Yoda lines and other emotionally repressive applications of the Jedi Code very much exist in parts of canon. A person who found the emotionally repressive variant of Jedi teachings to be upsetting due to a disability will likely feel as though you are trying to dismiss their feelings and belittle them if you “correct” them for “misinterpretation of the Jedi”. I get that it sucks to see people bash your blorbos, but if someone is doing it because they are dealing with something IRL like trauma or ableism, then it’s best not to engage and just let that person work through it.

I have also seen people who are defending the Jedi make statements that outright attack people for having intense emotions. I remember a take that basically said that you were a baby or a psychopath if you found the Jedi code regarding emotions to be “too hard”. I’ve seen people dismiss the trauma that Anakin went through and its possible effect on how he reacted to some aspects of the Jedi order in a way that mirrors the invalidation that those of us with emotional regulation issues have experienced for being “too much” for all of our lives. Yes, it is important to avoid harming others when you are in a bad place, and no Anakin was not a great person, but so many of these takes are devoid enough of nuance that they read as if they are just trashing people who have “too many”emotions.

Feel free to defend your favorite characters all that you would like, but please spare a thought for those of us who might not dig everything about them for reasons connected to disability and trauma. The Jedi aren’t real, but we very much are.

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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Anakin & Trauma

So there´s this talk around saying that being part of the Jedi Order was akin to taking therapy and that it was Anakin the one who didn´t respond well to therapy and I honestly don´t know where to begin because this is honestly false and is victim blaming.

The Jedi Order´s Philosophy on it´s own isn´t a therapy, not even real world buddhism from which George Lucas took some narrative clues is a therapy, it is a way of life, yes, a philosophy under which it´s members WILLINGLY become a part of it but this isn´t a therapy.

They don´t address trauma, they don´t address anxiety, they don´t address suicidal ideation, etc.

In fact, while Lucas took some narrative clues from real world buddhism, we can´t truly say in good faith the Jedi Order works like real world buddhism, beggining with the fact that they take away choice from their members, they are brought too young into the fold to make a real decision over if they want to become part of their order or not, they take away their parents and cut all connections forever, that doesn´t happen in buddhism, they are openly an armed part of the state even if their functions are diplomacy, buddhism isn´t part of any state , I could go on but I guess the idea is clear.

So blaming Anakin for not "responding well to therapy" isn´t just false, it´s victim blaming, it´s willingly ignoring the context of the story.

In the story the roots of Anakin´s trauma came from slavery and the forced separation from his mother, both situations that never were addressed by the Jedi Order or by Obi-Wan in Anakin´s training, they were openly suppresed while sending Anakin the message that he was the problem for caring and fearing for his mother´s life, his mother who was left alone with a bomb inside her body in a planet ran by the mafia, this isn´t therapy, this is gaslighting.

Wether the Jedi Council or Obi-Wan were aware of it, they willingly made Anakin doubt his own reality and made him take the blame for not taking well his separation from his mother and I don´t know you but if someone, anyone, told me I had to leave my mother behind as a slave with a bomb inside her body because their physophy said so and I was their chosen one so I have to obey them I would have punched them in the face and left to free my mom, chosen one prophecy and Jedi be damned but Anakin was a child, he didn´t have the emotional and verbal skills to even express how wrong all of this was and how much harm they were doing to him.

The signals were clear from the beggining, Obi-Wan noticed that Anakin didn´t have any friends in the Order, that he mostly expend his time with droids and it was the same even when he became an adult and a respected general, can you imagine the level of isolation Anakin had to felt living inside the Jedi Order, that he no longer could relate to the people around him because they saw him as a stranger and he saw them as strangers as well?, that he had to expend his time with droids? when he used to have many friends and acquitances and people who cared about him in his planet of origin despite the horrible reality that he was a slave?, do you believe it talks well about the Order the fact Anakin had better emotional balance and support network living as a slave on Tatooine but with friends and family than living as a member of the Jedi Order?

The Jedi Order were not a supporting network for Anakin, they could not be because their way of life and philosophy openly harmed Anakin, keep him from addressing his trauma, keep him from having comunication with his mother, keep him from learning to manage his emotions without suppresing them and openly shunned him for his past as a slave in current disney canon so don´t tell me this is how a supporting network works or that Anakin was at fault for all of this.

The only person close and interested enough in Anakin to notice the dissaster happening to Anakin´s mental state was freaking Sheev Palpatine, he inmediately noticed Anakin was going to grow up bitter and resentful of the Jedi Order given how they keep him separated from his mother, he noticed he needed a friend who didn´t talk about the Jedi code every five minutes, he noticed he needed a father figure because he never had a father and Obi-Wan actively refused to be one given his beliefs and phylosophy, too bad for Anakin that Palpatine was also a sith lord who planned on destroying his very sense of self and person so he could use his power, he saw all of this happening and let it happen because it helped his cause and he could be the cool parent who lets Anakin talk about his issues without jedi philosophy as he used to do on Tatooine with his Mom and his friends while also adding some psycological issues of self worth to Anakin´s trauma under the image of him caring for Anakin´s well being. Don´t get me started on the Jedi Order allowing this for the sake of keeping a good political relationship with the Chancellor, what´s a kid well being in comparision to a good relationship with the Senate after all but this is a rant for another day.

While Obi-Wan´s love and company could and did help to weather the worst of this, the fact Obi-Wan seemed to care first because of his promise to Qui-Gon, the fact that he didn´t care for Anakin for himself when all people need to be cared for themselves at least in their early years to grow up emotionally stable, need to be loved for themselves, not just for who they are to an institution or as a symbol like the chosen one, which the Jedi Council shunned and put in doubt from the beggining anyway, even if Obi-Wan himself tried to believe in that because his master cared for that stuff, by doing this Obi-Wan subconciously send Anakin the message he was only worth to the Order and to him because he was the chosen one, if he wasn´t then he would have been left a slave on Tatooine just like his mother was, which isn´t that far from reality, Qui-Gon only got interested in Anakin for his force sensitivity, not his kindness and generosity helping strangers when he didn´t have much himself and was a slave.

This truly makes me mad because doing this to a kid isn´t just cruel, it´s abuse be it blind on the Jedi Order´s part or willing abuse on Palpatine´s part, an injustice, a never addressed injustice and even the narrative tries not to tackle this in all i´ts intensity but this is why Lucas said that Anakin was a victim and sure the Jedi were also victims of Palpatine and Anakin by proxy during Order 66 but I think fandom needs to address more in good faith that Anakin himself was their victim first if not the entire Jedi Order (and Palpatine of course) of the adults who were in charge and supposely cared for him and truly didn´t, not in the way that truly matters.

So it is any surprise Anakin wanted to leave the Order to raise his child with Padmé? because honestly I believe that in his situation that was the healthiest decision he could make without completely cutting his ties to what he loved and respected of being a Jedi, so it´s tragic he didn´t get that opportunity because the other adult in his life decided he wanted him as his weapon and manipulated him by isolating him from all his loved ones into becoming exactly that.

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lan-octopie · 3 months

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Qui-Gonn: Allows for Anakin’s mother to remain in slavery on Tattooine

Yoda and Jedi Council: Tell Anakin that they don’t trust him from day one because he dares to be a normal kid by missing his mom they separated him from and left in slavery, only to refuse to let him keep in touch with her.

Yoda: Repeatedly warns his members that “Fear leads to the dark side.”

Also Yoda: Regularly enables, encourages, enforces, and implements acts, crimes, decisions, politicians, policies, and practices that he knows are corrupt, dangerous, dishonest, invalidating, hurtful, oppressive, and unfair within his Order and the Republic to maintain and obtain control, security, and “peace” because he is too afraid to face the unknown by taking a risk to stand up for what’s right instead. He then covers this up by telling himself and his recruits that the horrible things they enabled and/or perpetrated were “for the greater good” because he’s too much of an arrogant coward to admit that he deliberately didn’t practice what he preached.

Jedi Council and Obi Wan: Constantly gaslight and shame Anakin as “dangerous” for having completely normal and valid human feelings of anger, concern for loved ones, desires, and fears. Restrict his ability to develop any sort independence and personal life outside of just the Jedi Order. Warn him against developing any close and meaningful personal relationships altogether because they’re “dangerous.”

Jedi Council and Obi Wan Kenobi: Use the whole “chosen one destined to destroy the Sith” prophecy he’s been foretold to fulfill by Qui-Gonn Jinn as a sword to hold above Anakin’s head to guilt trip him into staying with them after being knighted and/or to shame him for not fulfilling his potential repeatedly, particularly throughout the clone wars because he’s such a useful powerful weapon for their own benefits, even though they can all tell that he wants to pull away from the Jedi Order and go his own way because he felt it was too chaotic, isolating, and toxic of an environment for him to be able to handle emotionally.

Jedi Council and Obi Wan: Teach Anakin there’s no way back to the light after a Jedi goes dark and teach him to defer his moral integrity “for the greater good” of their cause, even if he knows it’s technically morally wrong.

Obi-Wan, Mace-Windu, Yoda, and rest of Jedi Council: Allow for a 9-12 year old Anakin to speak unsupervised to Chancellor Palpatine when he threatens to ruin their public reputation and take away their power in the government if they say no since he has power over them as Chancellor of the Senate.

Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Jedi Council: Tell Anakin to either be happy about the deaths of loved ones, to get over them being in potential danger, and/or do nothing to help potentially prevent it whenever he tries to ask them for advice about how to deal with fear.

Obi Wan and Jedi Council: Expect for Anakin to follow their code, and put him on a leash. However, they break their own code whenever it suits them, particularly throughout the war, but still claim to be “peacekeepers of the galaxy.”

Yoda and Jedi Council: Give Anakin big responsibilities in the clone wars as a general of an army, and give him a padawan, even when he tries to tell them he’s not feeling ready for those responsibilities.

Yoda: Deliberately insists on giving Anakin a padawan to train, even when he tried to say he was not ready, precisely because he wanted for Anakin to grow attached to her, so that he could use that attachment he developed for Ahsoka against him as a “test” of the young Jedi knight’s ability to let go of attachments he makes. As soon as Anakin and Ahsoka grow to genuinely love each other, Yoda decides to implement this test of Anakin’s ability to let go of attachments by deliberately making a decision to put Anakin’s 14 year old padawan in the front line of their army in battles when she’s still in training.

Obi-Wan and Jedi Council: Decide to emotionally/psychologically traumatize a 21 year old Anakin by faking Obi Wan’s death for a mission because “he can’t be trusted since he’s too emotional.”

Yoda: Enables the incredibly unethical human genetic cloning and usage of soldiers when Palpatine commissions him an army of them for the soldiers of his organization to use to go to war because he is too much of a coward to risk his organization’s public reputation and security within an elite Republic to do the right thing.

Yoda, Jedi Council, and Obi-Wan: Expect for Anakin to help out the slaver Jabba on his home planet in the outer rims to preserve their position when he tries to say doing it would make him feel uncomfortable, considering the fact that he used to be a slave there, which they know about. Yet, they still make him do it, even though they claim to stand “for democracy.”

Jedi Council, Yoda, and Obi-Wan: Almost execute Anakin’s padawan Ahsoka, who they knew Anakin grew attached to, by prosecuting her for a crime they’re not sure she committed with flimsy and lackluster evidence, and then exile her.

Jedi Council: Refuse to let Anakin have a seat on the Council as master in Revenge of the Sith because he’s suddenly “too unstable and untrustworthy,” even though they allowed for him to speak alone to Palpatine when he was a child under their care, and were completely okay with knighting him, pressuring him to be general of their army, and pressuring him to have a padawan in the clone wars not long before.

Yoda and rest of Jedi Council: In spite of their earlier dismissal of Anakin’s request for a seat on the Council because he was “too untrustworthy” and too close to the Chancellor they let him speak to alone for their own benefits from the time he was a child under their care, they ultimately decide to let Anakin have a seat on the Council in Revenge of the Sith, but only because they realize they can use Anakin’s relationship with Palpatine as a tool to spy on the Chancellor to find out if their suspicions about him being a Sith Lord are correct and arrest him without the rest of the Senate’s consent or knowledge because they don’t trust them.

Obi-Wan: Acts as the Jedi Council’s messenger to Anakin after they decide to let him on the Council without the rank of master, so they can use him as a mole to commit treason against Palpatine upon their suspicions of him being shady, even though he knows it is an illegal and risky mission.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Obnoxiously accuses Anakin of using his friendship with the Chancellor to get a seat as master on the Council with no evidence that he has done so at all. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn’t in the room with Palpatine and Anakin when they were talking, so he wouldn’t know if Anakin actually asked for a seat on the Council in Revenge of the Sith. Even if Anakin really had asked for a seat on the Council, though, Obi-Wan still wouldn’t have any right to be upset that Anakin got close to the Chancellor because he was his primary caretaker, who allowed for them to develop that friendship in the first place for his and the Council’s own benefits when he was a child under their care, in spite of their growing suspicions in regards to Palpatine.

Anakin: Makes the bad decision of agreeing to accept the Council’s request to spy on Palpatine, so they can ultimately arrest him because he’s been getting taught to see the Jedi as “good guys” his whole life, and he feels too pressured to stay to please and protect those he cares about.

Mace Windu: Blatantly undermines Anakin’s intelligence, loyalty, and trustworthiness after he comes to him to tell him that Palpatine is a dark side user/Sith Lord after gaining intel for the Council to apprehend him by saying “If you’re right about him being the Sith Lord, I just

Palpatine: Grooming Anakin for the dark side, but Anakin doesn’t know that until the third act of RotS, so, it really just seems like the Palpatine is the only one who consistently treats him kindly next to every other adult he was raised by in the Jedi Order. Executes Order 66.

Anakin: Has a mental breakdown at 23. He turns to the dark side because he knows the Jedi Order is now inevitably doomed either way he chooses between Mace-Windu and Palpatine, and because he wants to protect himself and his family, which Palpatine promises him. Gets renamed Darth Vader by Sidious.

Yoda: Immediately decides to give Obi-Wan the task to apprehend and execute Anakin for his crimes against the Jedi Order without any further questions.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Goes about apprehending Anakin for his crimes against the Order very badly. Yes, Anakin needed to be stopped and punished for his crimes. However, just like Yoda, he never thinks to reflect on just how fucked up the Jedi Order was as a system in its methods. He never thinks to ask Anakin why he chose to turn to the dark side in the first place. He hides on Padme’s ship, even after she tells Obi-Wan that she wants to go speak to her husband alone, so that he can find Anakin to execute him for Yoda. He willingly puts her life at risk as bait with an unhinged Anakin by making his presence known and intentions to execute him explicitly clear right when Padme tells him she can’t be with him when he’s being like this.

No, Anakin is not an innocent for recklessly endangering her life by strangling her in a blind paranoid rage either. While the move didn’t ultimately kill her in and of itself, it could have, and it did contribute to her ultimate demise in Revenge of the Sith. He does hold partial responsibility for doing that to her. However, Obi-Wan also knew that Anakin’s anger, paranoia, and self-control were going to be much more easily triggered on the high of the dark side for the first time. He could overhear the entire conversation that he was having with Padme when she was telling him she loved him, but couldn’t be with him. He knew that Anakin felt worried that they were having an affair and/or plotting against him at the back of his mind because he and Padme kept meeting up with each other alone when he wasn’t around without telling him everything. He overheard Anakin say “Because of Obi-Wan” when she refused to follow him after he had committed crimes against the Jedi Order and Republic. Then, right after she says “no,” Obi-Wan decides to make his presence on her ship known to Anakin in a manner that makes his intention to execute him blatantly obvious. It was only then that Anakin grabbed Padme’s throat in a blind rage with the force.

Sure, Anakin was being completely in-denial and irrational at this point. Padme wasn’t wrong to not want to have anything to do with him after he committed crimes against the Order and Republic, and started talking to her about wanting to rule the galaxy with her. However, he still hadn’t laid a hand on Padme, even when he was feeling angry with her for refusing to follow him. It was only when Obi-Wan made his presence known from her ship with blatant hostility.

Obi-Wan Kenobi-Actually manages to convince Anakin to drop Padme from the reckless force choke before he can kill her.

Anakin: Actually comes down from his high on the dark side in his rage enough to give Obi-Wan an opportunity to not fight him to the death in a duel on Mustafar after he’s convinced to let go of Padme.

Obi-Wan Kenobi- Still decides to pursue his execution of Anakin for Yoda in a duel on Mustafar, even after he gets Anakin down to a place where his former padawan let go of Padme and told him that he didn’r want to have to fight him.

Even after getting the upper hand over Anakin on Mustafar, Obi-Wam is too cowardly and low-key vindictive to just end his former friend’s suffering by killing him swiftly. Instead, he makes the decision to cut off all of Anakin’s organic limbs when he tries to make a jump to the high ground to catch up to Obi Wan over hot lava, let’s him catch on fire, rants at him as he screams in agony on fire, steals his lightsaber, and walks away.

Anakin: Survives the burn injuries with the aid of a life support suit that Palpatine crafts for him to make him his attack dog, enforcer of galactic enslavement, supreme military commander, and murder slave Darth Vader.

Obi-Wan and Yoda: Oh no! How did this happen? Where did we go wrong? It’s all just Palpatine’s, Anakin’s, Dooku’s, and the Sith’s fault the galaxy is fucked up! Our system could never be wrong! The only things we ever did wrong were in trusting Palpatine with power in the Senate, and we were too “soft” on our recruits! We taught healthy coping, relationship, and social skills by pretending emotions and individuality didn’t exist at all and denying them all right? The methods we used to recruit, train, and “protect” the Jedi to keep them “pure” weren’t at all so deeply abusive, confusing, controlling, invalidating, isolating, and restrictive that they could have created such deeply-seeded emotional/psychological trauma in Anakin and these other force-sensitive kids we took in to irrevocably scar them for life, right? The choices we made, the code we preached, and the laws and system we enforced and implemented weren’t at all that traumatizing, right? We were good parents, supervisors, and teachers, right?

In fact, we were too good of parents to Anakin and Dooku. That’s really be why Anakin and Dooku went dark…We were too nice to them. We should have been harder on them with the rules and our system.

Let’s sit in hiding together for the next two decades while our former “chosen one” helps terrorize the galaxy with Sidious, so that we can attempt to train his innocent son as a weapon to destroy the monster we inadvertently helped turn his father into all those years ago. It’s all “for the greater good,” and not at all an attempt to try to absolve ourselves of our own mistakes with Anakin, the Jedi Order, and the rise of the Empire because we are too afraid to face them and take responsibility for them. It’s totally the right thing to do!

Stop judging us and asking questions, Luke! Just do as we say! Don’t be emotional like your dad was! Don’t go save your friends when their lives are in danger because “attachments lead to the dark side.” Training you to be a weapon to clean up the mess we helped create with your dad and the Empire before you were born twenty years ago is more important!

Luke, Anakin, Ahsoka, Palpatine, Dooku, and many of us in the audience watching: *Facepalms and sighs in annoyance*

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