kotlcsalt-blog

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I want to write a story set in Arizona, but where the Americans weren't invaded. I realised this after I made the plot and the culture is the same as I've lived it, and I'm also worried I don't know enough about Native American culture to write about it. Is it realistic to have the people live in houses and have jobs as the ones that are in America now, and can they use the same zodiac signs? I'm planning on mentioning their religion and such though so do you have any resources for that?

Accidentally Recreated Modern Culture, Is This Okay?

> I made the plot and the culture is the same as I’ve lived it> I’m also worried I don’t know enough about Native American culture to write about it

You’ve basically answered your own question with these two lines. Because you didn’t even stop to think their lives would be different when you were building it, you don’t know enough about our cultures. 

You shouldn’t be jumping into this situation without being able to build a culture that is different from what you’ve lived automatically. Instead, you’ve gone and built something that is completely based on your lived experience, and promptly asking if your lived experience is possible for them instead of starting over and building your story based on our reality and imagining how our reality exists in a future where the Americas were never invaded.

You should be using cultures, plural, and you should have a tribe selected based on the Arizona area (I’m unfamiliar with the region, so I won’t list any— but there are many possibilities and google is a good place to start). You should be looking at what technological advancements would’ve spread via trade and what would be adopted.

Is it realistic to have industrialization happen around the globe? Possibly, depending on the global setting (I personally would rather see the level of industrialization we have not actually be at modern levels, because our current production is unsustainable, but advancement happens naturally). Is it possible zodiac signs have spread out and Natives have adopted the Western one? If it interests them, sure.

But those are the wrong questions to ask. The questions shouldn’t be based around “oops I didn’t build in difference, is it okay if they’re the same as modern people?” Basing your questions around that doesn’t actually address your knowledge issue.

Once you realized you made their lives completely identical to your modern life, you should have started over and gone to research how Arizona tribes lived, imagined how industrialization would’ve spread globally, and then begun building again.

Don’t launch right into the elaborate stuff if you haven’t got the basics down. Work your way up and don’t just jump to level expert when you’re still a beginner. It’s perfectly okay to be a beginner and not be able to tackle the elaborate stuff at first! It’s okay to shelve ideas aside because as you build them you realize you don’t know anywhere near enough to do it justice.

As we said in So You Want To Save The World From Bad Representation, you have to start small when you’re starting from the beginning of learning how to write representation. Everyone starts somewhere, and picking a more manageable project will give you a better starting place with fewer mistakes that can be made.

Take a step back and work on the basics. Tribes in the area, what their lives used to be like. Maybe write a modern story with Native side characters so you can learn about what their modern life is like. Once you’ve gotten those building blocks in place, you can start to build them up into something more elaborate.

~ Mod Lesya

#THIS #THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE LOST CITIES ARE UNREALISTIC

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#just to clear things up about how some harmful tropes can be used unintentionally

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Diversity is actually very important to me, and while I have honestly been working hard to include as much of it as I can, I do also realize that it’s something I can always improve upon. But it does get a little tricky when it comes to “culture.” I’m not writing about human characters. In fact, I’m writing about characters who find humans…kind of unworthy. So elements of “human” culture don’t fit in the world. (If you’ll notice, the elves don’t follow any human traditions or holidays. They eat different foods. Have their own clothes and style of architecture. Even their own language). As I said, I have been working harder to be clearer with my descriptions of the characters to make sure readers understand the cast is definitely not all white–and never has been. But I won’t be including any elements of human cultures in the elvin world because it simply isn’t consistent with the world of the story (with the exception of the culture Sophie experienced while she lived with humans, and even then, only in brief mentions. Or perhaps if they visit a human “forbidden city”, there would be mentions of the setting and their reactions to it and observations). I would also recommend checking out http://weneeddiversebooks.tumblr.com. The team there does an AMAZING job of helping readers discover new books they might not have realized existed. Again, diversity is something I am always striving to be better about. But again, I do also want to remind you guys that I am VERY intentionally avoiding attaching my elves to any human “culture.” There is no such thing as an American elf, or a European elf, or a Chinese elf or an Indian elf or Vietnamese or Korean or any of those things. Those are human cultural terms that do not apply to the world of the lost cities, and things like names and last names are chosen–NOT to connect the elves to any particular culture–but because the meaning or feel fit the character. The name Sencen is not meant to attach Keefe to any form of white culture. It’s a name I invented because it felt appropriate for a family with a heritage of Empaths. (given that it has the word “sense” in it). I chose the name Song for the same reason. It has a connection to their family. Additionally, I picked it because–in my research (which admittedly was limited to the internet) it was a name that was attached to several asian cultures, including Korean, Chinese, and actually Vietnamese. And I chose it to make it clear that Tam and Linh do not belong to any particular human culture. They are simply *elves*. I’m not explaining that to try to argue I’ve handled diversity perfectly. Obviously I’m a work in progress on the issue (it’s also an issue where it’s impossible to make everyone happy). That being said, I really really hope that my readers understand that my characters are NOT human, and are intentionally separate from human categories of culture and race. They have ONE race. Elf. And they all have blue eyes (except Sophie). But that does not mean they all look like caucasians. And that’s intentional because one of the themes I wanted to explore in the books is the idea that it’s never right to separate people. The elves only have one race: elf. So skin color or appearance does not make a difference to them. They also only have one culture and one socio-economic class. They all start with the same amount of money. But they DO still discriminate. They discriminate based on talent–something they feel is fair, because someone with more abilities (in their opinion) should naturally have more power and responsibility. But it’s still unjust. And their world is slowly crumbling because of it. So again, while I definitely consider myself a work in progress when it comes to diversity and always appreciate feedback and guidance to help me do better, please please please also understand that there are no human cultures being represented in these books very specifically because I am not writing about human characters. Oh, also, as I said–my research on the last names came from Google, so I do realize it’s possible some of it was inaccurate. I do strive to find at least five websites verifying something before I decide to trust it, but still, I *am* aware that the internet can be wrong. But I also was specifically trying NOT to pick a name that was limited to only one culture, so all I was truly Googling was surnames attached to multiple asian cultures so that no one could claim Tam and Linh belonged to any particular one (just as I strive to never have elvin last names belong to any specific European cultures or American cultures). I also love when I can find a name where all or part of it is a word that means something to the characters. I haven’t told you much about Tam and Linh’s family yet, but we will learn more as the story goes and perhaps then you might see why the name especially appealed to me. Just wanted to shed some further insights on the naming process. Honestly, I spent an entire WEEK reading websites and baby name books and trying to find names for Tam and Linh that fit with both the elvin world and their characters. For instance, I chose the name “Tam” because it has multiple meanings. According to the websites I found, In Hebrew and Scottish, it means “Twin.” In Vietnamese, it means “heart”. So it had meanings that matched his character in multiple cultures and therefore felt properly disconnected from all of them, matched the pattern of the elvin names I use, and fit his personality.

Shannon Messenger, about diversity in the Keeper of the Lost Cities series (via xylia-neo)

#this is good! this is good #shannon is trying #she a little confused but she got the spirit #and it's very cute that she believes the lost cities aren't based on human culture

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my asian ass obviously isn’t an expert on this but the internet seems to agree that dreadlocks need to be retwisted every four weeks and just need a lot of maintenance in general so... prentice my buddy after twelve years in exile with no hair products you would not have recognizable dreads

#mod sqmmie #could any followers with dreads confirm this? thanks #kotlc salt

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In Book One, Fitz says Eternalia was known in the human world as Shangri-la, which is described by the book it's in to be hidden in China.

I was going to write a salty post about Tam and Linh but now I feel that scouring the few sentences Shannon has written about Tam and Linh for things to rant about would be counterproductive. Basically my problems with Tam and Linh (and the Asian representation in KOTLC in general) can be summed up with:

Tam and Linh are obviously East Asian coded, but there are no aspects of Asian culture in the books that would allow their characters to make sense. They could have easily been white and their characters would not have changed one bit.

Tam and Linh’s names and descriptions are appropriation because they blend several different Asian cultures. (As in using “K-pop idols” and “anime” in the same sentence.)

Eternalia is RIGHT SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF MCFREAKIN’ CHINA. Yet everything about it, from the architecture to the people, is unapologetically Western.

That’s basically it. No need for a long post.

—Mod Sqmmie

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2 am rant

Ok I’ve been considering this for a while now but it’s something that needs to be said. KEEPER is by fAR my favorite books series, maybe ever, but like,,, OH MY GOD THERES SO MANY THINGS -the world is shit. Like, it’s this perfect place of happy magical wonders, and like,,, NO. It feels like there’s too little culture, too little developmental errors that’s have just become general flaws in the society, etc. it’s bland, and there’s so many flaws and plot holes- like if they live all over the world how do time zones work????? I understand that “oh hehe they’re basically magic but it’s all SCIENCE” is supposed to fix everything but really, take some more time to develop the society as a whole. We see way to little of that already with Sophie being who she is and like,,, it needs so much more development and culture and ugh. The universe is like a huge building that towers way to high for its crummy foundation and broken windows. -Sophie. Oh god I could go on for hours. HOURS. About how terrible of a character she is in general. Not a terrible person- character. She’s undeveloped, COMPLETELY. We have almost no information about any of her past and that’s boring. We literally know more about Dex and the way he’s lived than we do about pre- first chapter of keeper Sophie. And that’s NOT good for a main character. I may be a tad over exaggerating but if we dont know more about Dex then we definitely know more about Tam and Linh. Like- I know we might get more with the next book, and we most likely will get a LOT more. But the thing is- WE HAVE FIVE BOOKS OF CRAP ABOUT WHAT MAKES SOPHIE SOPHIE. GOD, THATS AGITATING. Her past is so empty and all i can remember off of the top of my head is she had a tradition of having alfredo once a week (I think it was Thursday???) and that she beat a fifth grader in a spelling bee in kindergarten. ((Idk maybe it’s cuz she read the whole encyclopedia by then and had a photographic memory.)) Not only that, but she’s,,,, BORING. CLICHE. OP. HONESTLY, I hate it. Giving her two powers? That was enough. Oh wait there’s anoth- anot- fuck more- DAMN IT PLEASE NO. I swear, she pretty much got a power a book. Like,, no. She’s cliche af bc EVERYTHING SHE DOES IS SO PREDICTABLE. It feels like Shannon is trying to mash this perfect being into an anxious and fearful meat suit and like,,, I get the anxious and fearful but in general her personality is more bland than uncooked spaghetti. She’s not INTERESTING. Shannon tried fixing it with humor but it doesn’t working on Sophie. When she made that joke? With the stark flower stew? I cringed bc THAT WAS SO UNNATURAL GOD. I’m sorry but personality= negative 0. She’s legit my least favorite character bc I can’t relate to her, I can’t connect to her, I can’t see myself in her, I can’t feel empathy for her (for a smart elf she’s a freaking dumbass a lot of the time) I’m not able to connect with her. Sure she was put down a lot in education and has been through some crap but like,,, it’s hard to reflect on that and see myself in her bc she just kinda,,, ugh. Honestly if I was put in a room with her, hitler, and Joseph Stalin, I’d shoot her then myself. GOD. -WHERE THE FUCK IS THE DIVERSITY. And I’m not talking race- wait yes I am. It feels like there’s way to few poc for a species that’s so bent on diversity that they ruin marriages and destroy families to achieve it. Then there’s the fact that there’s no mention of LGBT. SOPHIE LITERALLY LIVED IN SAN FRANCISCO. g o D HAVE MERCY BC IF THE BOOK IS SUPPOSED TO BE DIVERSE AND ACCEPTING SHOULDNT IT AT LEAST HINT AT SOME LGBT STUFF. -“you can wear whatever you want ya just for beauty blah blah blah” my ASS. Sorry della, but if that were true why the fUCK isn’t Keefe going around wearing dresses and nice ass makeup??? One of the things that points that girls are degraded is the fact that guys aren’t expected/ allowed to wear feminine clothes. It’s not just about what girls wear, it’s about it not being looked down upon to be ‘girly’. GOD.

There’s so much more but I’ve been writing for over half an hour and it’s 2:21 am so,,, yeet.

/also why is Keefe and Tam teased at one point for wearing more hair product than Biana? Is it because it’s… *gasp* gIrLy!?!?!?!?!? NeVeR!!!!!

#kotlc salt

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okay but consider this: the vackers dont have to be white

#THANK YOU

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Ok my buddy time to hear why, exactly, the Vackers don’t have to be white.

First of all, a character is only canonically white if the author says, “This character is white.” Pale =/= white. Rosy-cheeked =/= white. Having a face that “goes white” in fear =/= white.

The official art seems to be evidence that all of the original five are white. And yes, they were probably coded that way. But here’s the thing, folks: LOOKING WHITE =/= WHITE. Let’s take a look at these pictures.

All four of the actresses in the first picture are at least part Latina, and all three of the actresses in the second picture are half Asian. So yes, the Vackers, despite looking more or less white, could definitely be POC or mixed race.

Here’s some MORE evidence. First, let’s take Biana’s face as a reference.

Look at the shape. The jawline. That’s normally considered a “white person” face shape. Now, look at these folks.

And while we’re comparing faces, let’s look at these fictional ones.

I WONDER WHO LOOKS LIKE THEY “STEPPED STRAIGHT OUT OF ANIME” NOW.

I could do this with Fitz and Alvar and Alden too but I’m running out of time, so I’m just going to finish by saying that fiction allows for interpretation. Even if a character is obviously, blatantly, canonically white, fans are allowed to interpret the character any way they want. See the following examples.

Finally: Even if the canon explicitly says a character is white (which KOTLC doesn’t), POC headcanons are a “what if” scenario, and “what if” scenarios are really quite common and uncontroversial in their other forms. Saying “the Vackers don’t have to be white” is no different than writing a fic where Sokeefe happens.

okay but consider this: the vackers dont have to be white

#kotlc #keeper of the lost cities

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Your points are all legitimate, and I certainly didn’t mean to say that Sophie’s a bad person who ‘lifts herself above others’ or anything like that. I agree that there’s nothing wrong with Sophie’s intentions—she’s trying to help people, trying to fix things. And I agree that having Sophie there to change the Lost Cities is better than no one fighting for change at all. Rather, the problem lies in worldbuilding itself. You said it yourself: the oppressed in the Lost Cities don’t know how to speak out. This sort of ignorance, for lack of a better word, automatically elevates Sophie to a ‘higher level’, even though she doesn’t think of herself as better than everyone else. Basically, the elves are—whether this was intended or not—presented to the reader as ‘lesser’ than Sophie or ‘needing help’ because what they don’t consider discrimination is so obviously discrimination to the target audience (i.e. children raised by humans with generally good morals).

And this isn’t a problem unique only to KOTLC! In fact, off the top of my head I can think of maybe one book that managed to pull off this type of premise without implications that set off warning bells in your head, and that’s Hermione’s activism in Harry Potter because you see how ridiculous a lot of her ideas to free the house-elves are at first, but later she learns more from the house-elves themselves and is able to do actual things to make a difference. There’s a nice Goodreads discussion about it here.

TL;DR The problem isn’t Sophie’s fault (even though she’s a fictional character so nothing can technically be her fault but whatever). Rather, the whole idea of Sophie and her ‘purpose’ is just really difficult to execute well.

I finally realized something about KOTLC that bothers me, like, more than other things.

Sophie was sent to live with humans so she would be an ‘outside perspective’ and see the problems with the Lost Cities that the elves couldn’t see. Sounds legit, right?

Except there are already elves who see the flaws in the system. Based on how Dex talks about nobility and the Vackers, the Talentless aren’t exactly happy with the discrimination they have to face. And by taking it upon herself to fix the world, Sophie—a girl with with traits that would make her privileged in the Lost Cities—is speaking for and erasing the voices of the people who are, y’know, actually oppressed.

Because of this, Sophie has become a White Savior trope. Which is… not good. It’s demeaning and offensive and, as I said before, erases the voices of the oppressed.

#keeper of the lost cities #kotlc

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I finally realized something about KOTLC that bothers me, like, more than other things.

Sophie was sent to live with humans so she would be an ‘outside perspective’ and see the problems with the Lost Cities that the elves couldn’t see. Sounds legit, right?

Except there are already elves who see the flaws in the system. Based on how Dex talks about nobility and the Vackers, the Talentless aren’t exactly happy with the discrimination they have to face. And by taking it upon herself to fix the world, Sophie—a girl with with traits that would make her privileged in the Lost Cities—is speaking for and erasing the voices of the people who are, y’know, actually oppressed.

Because of this, Sophie has become a White Savior trope. Which is... not good. It’s demeaning and offensive and, as I said before, erases the voices of the oppressed.

#keeper of the lost cities #kotlc

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*fricking applauds*

If you think kotlc needs more racially diverse characters too clap your hands

#mod star

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I was going to write a salty post about Tam and Linh but now I feel that scouring the few sentences Shannon has written about Tam and Linh for things to rant about would be counterproductive. Basically my problems with Tam and Linh (and the Asian representation in KOTLC in general) can be summed up with:

Tam and Linh are obviously East Asian coded, but there are no aspects of Asian culture in the books that would allow their characters to make sense. They could have easily been white and their characters would not have changed one bit.

Tam and Linh’s names and descriptions are appropriation because they blend several different Asian cultures. (As in using “K-pop idols” and “anime” in the same sentence.)

Eternalia is RIGHT SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF MCFREAKIN’ CHINA. Yet everything about it, from the architecture to the people, is unapologetically Western.

That’s basically it. No need for a long post.

—Mod Sqmmie

#kotlc #representation #kotlcsalt

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Dex: there's only one thing that I fear

Biana: being left out?

Dex: no, that happens to me on a daily basis

#yeah this is not okay #once finals are done imma write a rant about sex #SEX #DEX STOP AUTOCORRECT WHY

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Once exams are over, I’m going to write a very long, very angry piece about why Tam and Linh are a poor attempt at racial diversity.

—Mod Sqmmie

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GAY PEOPLE STILL EXIST IN HOMOPHOBIC SOCIETIES. THE CULTURE OF THE LOST CITIES IS NO EXCUSE NOT TO HAVE REPRESENTATION.

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where oh where are the gays

Let’s talk ships.

Now, when I say ships, I mean all the ships in KOTLC. You have your main three, of course, but that’s a different post. For now, we’re talking every ship in KOTLC. And boy, there are a lot.

Almost every ship imaginable is hinted at. There’s Sofitz, Sodex, and Sokeefe, but there’s also Dex/Linh, Fitz/Linh, Tamiana, Keefiana, and on and on. It seems like Shannon has hinted at every possible pairing, right?

Do you see the problem yet? No? 

Okay, then let me list the ships Shannon hasn’t hinted at. Ships like Detz, Solinh, Liniana, Keefitz, and Sophiana.

Now do you see it?

KOTLC is aggressively heteronormative. You can’t look me in the eye and say there’s not something suspect about the fact that Shannon seems to hint at every ship possible- except the same-sex ones. When Shannon hints at a ship, she’s pretty blatant about it (see: Sophie’s constant references to “fluttery things,” Biana’s kiss from Keefe and also I’m pretty sure Biana literally says she likes him at one point, or Linh’s comments about Tam’s “type”). But she never done anything like that for any kind of gay ship, even outside the main Keepers. We never even see an offhand reference to a homosexual couple. What, do gay people not exist in this world? (And if the answer to that is yes, then that has a whole other set of implications, none of them good.)

Now you may be thinking, “Oh, Juline and Kepler are a bad match, so they face discrimination like an homosexual couple might!” To which I say, THAT’S NOT REPRESENTATION. Juline and Kepler are still a heterosexual couple. That’s not in and of itself a bad thing, but you can’t hold up a straight couple and say it’s representation for the gay community. And, even if it is meant to be representation, that’s never made clear at all.   AND, one more thing, if bad matches are supposed to represent gay couples, that, once again means more bad implications.

People say, “Oh, I don’t want to put issues like that into a kids’ book.” But that’s a load of BS! First of all, Rick Riordan did it, does it, and is still doing it, so anyone who says it’s impossible  is wrong. Shannon is an established author with at least one more book deal with a publisher. She could do it. And second, it’s not an issue! Yes, in our reality it’s an important issue, which why im writing this post and why it matters that Shannon adds LGBTQ+ representation. But Shannon’s not working in our reality. She working in her own society that appears to not have social issues like poverty (which is annoying, but thats also another post.). If they can get rid of poverty, who’s to say the elves couldn’t have eliminated homophobia too? She doesn’t even have to deal with human prejudice here. So honestly? I don’t get it. We know LGBTQ+ representation is important. They’re people, just like anyone else, and they deserve to be acknowledged. They deserve to see themselves in books, movies, and other media. So why aren’t they in KOTLC? I’m asking, and I want an answer. Buuuut barring that I’ll just keep being bitter. This is kotlcsalt, after all.

#everything they said. #like legitimately #just everything #this person has it right #salty reblog

[kotlcsalt-blog]

where oh where are the gays

Let's talk ships.

Now, when I say ships, I mean all the ships in KOTLC. You have your main three, of course, but that's a different post. For now, we're talking every ship in KOTLC. And boy, there are a lot.

Almost every ship imaginable is hinted at. There's Sofitz, Sodex, and Sokeefe, but there's also Dex/Linh, Fitz/Linh, Tamiana, Keefiana, and on and on. It seems like Shannon has hinted at every possible pairing, right?

Do you see the problem yet? No? 

Okay, then let me list the ships Shannon hasn't hinted at. Ships like Detz, Solinh, Liniana, Keefitz, and Sophiana.

Now do you see it?

KOTLC is aggressively heteronormative. You can't look me in the eye and say there's not something suspect about the fact that Shannon seems to hint at every ship possible- except the same-sex ones. When Shannon hints at a ship, she's pretty blatant about it (see: Sophie’s constant references to "fluttery things," Biana's kiss from Keefe and also I'm pretty sure Biana literally says she likes him at one point, or Linh’s comments about Tam's "type"). But she never done anything like that for any kind of gay ship, even outside the main Keepers. We never even see an offhand reference to a homosexual couple. What, do gay people not exist in this world? (And if the answer to that is yes, then that has a whole other set of implications, none of them good.)

Now you may be thinking, "Oh, Juline and Kepler are a bad match, so they face discrimination like an homosexual couple might!" To which I say, THAT'S NOT REPRESENTATION. Juline and Kepler are still a heterosexual couple. That's not in and of itself a bad thing, but you can't hold up a straight couple and say it's representation for the gay community. And, even if it is meant to be representation, that's never made clear at all.   AND, one more thing, if bad matches are supposed to represent gay couples, that, once again means more bad implications.

People say, "Oh, I don't want to put issues like that into a kids' book." But that's a load of BS! First of all, Rick Riordan did it, does it, and is still doing it, so anyone who says it's impossible  is wrong. Shannon is an established author with at least one more book deal with a publisher. She could do it. And second, it's not an issue! Yes, in our reality it's an important issue, which why im writing this post and why it matters that Shannon adds LGBTQ+ representation. But Shannon's not working in our reality. She working in her own society that appears to not have social issues like poverty (which is annoying, but thats also another post.). If they can get rid of poverty, who's to say the elves couldn't have eliminated homophobia too? She doesn't even have to deal with human prejudice here. So honestly? I don't get it. We know LGBTQ+ representation is important. They're people, just like anyone else, and they deserve to be acknowledged. They deserve to see themselves in books, movies, and other media. So why aren't they in KOTLC? I'm asking, and I want an answer. Buuuut barring that I'll just keep being bitter. This is kotlcsalt, after all.

#long post #kotlc #gays of the lost cities #kotlc roast #we're here and we're salty #we're gonna be salty #gay representation