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snowflake-of-destruction · 4 years

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let's hear about FFVIII seifer, if you're still doing this XD

Why I like them: You know my tastes. A green-eyed man is introduced throwing fireballs around, is kind of a condescending jerk but in a fun way, instigates deep conversations on high ground while staring at the sunset...Well, before we even get to villainy, immolation, and redemption arc, I start going “Is this a favorite character?” I’m joking...kind of. Some of that does factor in, even the fire.

Okay, so my favorite thing about Seifer’s arc is that, in the limited focus he’s given, he’s complex and layered from the beginning, and his villain arc is a clear and fascinating illustration of “No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks” ….with a side of brainwashing.

Let’s break this down:

What are some of the words used to describe him by those that know him (by himself, by Squall, by Fuu and Rai)? Romantic. Idealistic. Sensitive. He is the one who believes in making a difference in the world--not just as a wish or goal, but as an imperative to do what your heart says is right even if it’s going to cost you--where Squall is just follow-the-orders-and-do-the-job. If you’re already reading this and objecting, I’m not saying Squall doesn’t care...obviously he does, defrosting Mr. Go Talk to a Wall and getting him to a place where he admits how many layers of mask he wears is his character development...but Seifer isn’t just a hothead. He wears his heart on his sleeve.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to deny that Seifer can be an abrasive, self-serving, hypocritical jackass sometimes, who can fight dirty, wants to “wreak some havoc,” and has a history as a bully--though, gentlefolk of the jury, I submit to the courts that he puts on a tough act like Squall does and they are both different flavors of trying to mimic toxic alpha male--but let’s not forget that some of his establishing character moments are throwing out his future to disobey orders because he sees that the higher-ups have possibly misjudged the situation and civilians could be in danger, and, again, going AWOL because he thinks Squall and Rinoa could be killed. And he calls himself the white knight and holds up a code of honor until the end, even though it gets twisted. He is about duty and honor, with honor even over duty.

Oh, this was only going to be the beginning. I haven’t even begun to touch on what I would want to touch on--this is just surface personality and the beginning of the game before we even get to joining Sorceress Edea, and even then not all I would say-- but this post isn’t actually supposed to be my Ted talk on what you missed if you just think of Seifer as a recurring boss fight. Let’s move on.

ONE MORE THING ACTUALLY. Even though we see a lot of Seifer at his worst, you can use Fujin and Raijin as a mirror. What do they say near the end of the game if we paraphrase/summarize? They knew pretty early on, before even the senseless slaughter and torture era that Seifer was going down a dark path with the sorceress, but they knew it wasn’t him and stayed with him, not because they agreed with his actions, wanted power, or out of fear, but to take care of him and try to break through to him--and not because they are saints, but because he, despite what had happened in the past year, is the type of person who deserves and inspires that kind of loyalty. Let’s think on that.

Now the rest goes under a read more, because I am going to keep rambling and be wordy

Why I don’t: He can be an asshole, and he’s an asshole in an embarrassing way. As in, if one is trying to say he’s not the little punk his KH counterpart is, you remember he still uses the insult chickenwuss (though that is a legacy insult/nickname since he’s known Zell since childhood--and, fyi, Squall uses it too) and he had a little gang in school. Even once he’s a military commander of an evil army set on world domination, he has some moments where his level of petty undermines him.

Favorite episode (scene if movie): The Dollet mission

Favorite line: Sorry, not sorry that the following is my favorite exchange of lines and that the prison torture scene is another of my favorite scenes. For context, Seifer has captured Squall, has him hanging up on the wall in crucified hero imagery, implied to be shirtless even though his character model isn’t because they talk about scar tissue or lack thereof from a recent shoulder injury/Squall being stabbed in the chest/shoulder area. Seifer has been electrocuting Squall for information. By this point, I might as well have put the whole scene here. Also, I am now going to blame Squall and Seifer text boxes in FFVIII for my own abuses of ellipses...

Seifer: " I was hoping you'd be there, Squall. So... how'd I look in my moment of triumph? My childhood dream, fulfilled. I've become the sorceress' knight."

Squall: [internal monologue] ...Sorceress' knight... ...His...romantic dream...? But... Seifer... Now, you're just a…[Out loud] "... torturer."

[Squall passes out.]

Seifer: "What did you say? [Steps closer] Passed out cold, eh? This is the scene where you swear your undying hatred for me! The tale of the evil mercenary versus the sorceress' knight!”

This isn’t just me all “mmm, tension.” Seifer has passed the moral event horizon, and it’s not just faceless NPCs that are collateral damage anymore. We’ve seen him on screen torture the protagonist, who is also one of the only people who he’s shown to have a real bond with that goes beyond superficial. Then we get this and see Seifer thinks he’s the good guy still, on a noble mission where he’s had to make painful sacrifices, and Squall is a representative of the power-hungry evil. Seifer’s been playing a different game, and had his will twisted via magic.

Favorite outfit: The Amano art where the white coat is cast off and he’s wearing the simple black shirt and black jeans under it. Symbolic? Maybe. I wouldn’t give up the coat though. I love the long white/gray coat, the outer embodiment of wanting to wear the white hat, but the desire easily getting tarnished, and the red cross that turns into a sword and becomes Seifer’s symbol and soon to appear other places, emblazoned nice and big on the sleeve. It’s the Cross of Saint James. TRADITIONALLY red represents the blood of Christ, the three lilies represent the honor of the apostle and reference Christ as lily of the valley, and the sword shape represents the torture that St.James suffered before his murder. HOWEVER, my opinion is that here it’s more vague/altered symbolism (For starters, there are other gods not the Christian God in this world) with a side of “looks cool.” We still have something that clearly calls to mind a mission from on high, innocence in the lilies, blood and blood cost, and then war/violence with the sword. And I love it.

OTP: Seifer/Squall. I should not even start, but lest you think I am just in it for kinky torture scenes: We have these two who, in the beginning, are generally callous or mocking toward everyone, but make each other laugh/smile, see who each other are underneath and describe each other in “soft” terms even if they tease each other for it, repeatedly check in on each other to see if the other is okay, respect each other’s opinion and skills, and...you get the idea. In the words of Zell Dincht, I thought you two were rivals, but you’re all buddy-buddy.

Pause for a second and let’s just say first impression. That opening fight where they scar each other’s faces? It takes place outside Balamb Garden and the area is shown so we see they are alone. Squall passes out. Squall wakes up in the infirmary within the Garden base. Squall has to explain what happened; people don’t already know. This kind of implies after Squall passed out, Seifer, bleeding from a head wound himself, picked Squall up and carried him home, allowing himself to collapse only when Squall was being safely tended to, because he’s that extra. This is his first (okay, second, after fireballs and face slashing) action in the game even though it’s offscreen. I mean, he could have also just called for help/ran for help, but that’s less fun.

Seifer is so concerned with being a badass, but he’s admits to Squall all he’s ever wanted was to be the fairytale knight, not a mere soldier. Vulnerability and confession he wants romance....with the first time it’s brought up in game being while they are watching the sun set together, the traditional Square Red Sunset of Shipping.

Seifer hesitates to defy orders, not for himself, but until he sees Squall is with him. Even though there were other “children of destiny” who all came from the same orphanage, Squall and Seifer were the ones who were never apart, never adopted until it was by a military/mercenary training program, and, even though it may speak more to brotherly than romantic from some angles, there’s a feeling of being the same, knowing each other down to the atoms, adopting an us against the world mindset that trumps trying to best each other when it comes down to it because they are the only constant. When Squall has his breakdown/ breakthrough of why he pushes people away/doesn’t let himself care/tries not to need anyone because people leave/are taken from him and he is scared he isn’t worthy of love and happiness until Rinoa challenges him, this may seem like a dismissal of Seifer, but you can also look at it from “I had no friends or family. I didn’t even have interest in speaking to anyone. I strived to be an unfeeling machine, because all emotion is pain...But also I couldn’t go 48 hours without seeing Seifer.”

Yeah, yeah, we know their main form of hanging out was beating the tar out of each other, but sometimes, especially in older media, this was its own brand of subtext. For more on how Seifer miiiight just view sparring let’s point out that “Isn’t this ROMANTIC?” and “Kneel” as a less easily interpreted as innuendo version of “I want you on your knees” are battle quotes even in Kingdom Hearts sooo draw your own conclusion.

We get a line where Squall makes it clear these were friendly matches looked at as pushing their limits beyond what they are allowed to in sanctioned spars, and he feels prepared to take on anything now because of Seifer. Is it healthy communication in real life? No! Is this real life? No! Plus, the facial scar was an accident, pretty clearly...on Seifer’s side...I could write another essay on how Seifer draws first blood, but it’s because on Squall’s failed block, AND THEN SQUALL GETS ANGRY AND RETALIATES WITH CLEAR PURPOSE AND MAKES THE OPENING SHOT INTO THE FIRST SIGN GOOD VERSUS BAD GUY ISN’T SO CLEAR CUT (even though they both shouldn’t have been going so hard in a friendly training match to begin with).

Seifer’s later, repeated threats/expressed desire to give Squall additional scars once he goes evil? That is a different animal, and a horrible one, objectively. Not objectively? No comment. Okay, one comment. Mark you as mine. Two comments. He knows Squall’s lost some memories and he can’t stomach being the next thing forgotten so Squall needs physical reminders.

Hmmm, I was supposed to be talking about the ship, not just the sparring and scars. We can wrap it up with a Marge Simpson. “I just think they’re neat”

BUT ONE MORE THING

Squall’s jacket when he becomes Leon in Kingdom Hearts. His outfit is mostly the same, right? Except the back of the jacket now has a red patch of an emblem (of Rinoa’s angel wings, not Seifer’s cross...for the OT3 feel), and his fight with Sora he throws a fireball like Seifer’s signature. Just, you know, if you want bonus references/feeling.

Brotp: Fuu and Rai. They are willing to commit war crimes with this man, nurse him back from death’s door, and go into exile with him if he can’t return to a normal life even after a redemption arc. This section deserves to be long, but I am beginning to get talked out. Don’t take that as devaluing the friendship though. I’m glad he was allowed to keep his ride or dies in Kingdom Hearts. FRIENDSHIP! They love him, ya know?

Head Canon: What we see of him at the end of the game is a temporary situation and after he heals and refreshes for awhile he’d go back to Balamb and face consequences for his actions, and probably insist on consequences instead of leaning into “an evil sorceress bespelled me and slowly took my free will.” No hiding away in the wilderness. No crossing into and living his life in Esthar. No, “but in the end I broke free and would have been an active, onscreen part of saving the world if Square had let me join the party!” He would insist on being cast into a deep, dark cell. Squall uses pull to get him pardoned, but not before just, flat out, yelling at him for being a martyr.

Unpopular opinion: He did love Rinoa. It may have been a “shallow love,” but he wasn’t just dating her to pass time or because she played into his damsel who needs a hero mindset. There was emotion. He was prepared to die for her and Squall in Timber, and almost did--only being saved by Sorceress Edea...which wasn’t a kindness, but it all worked out in the end. Sure, he gets mind-controlled into using Rinoa as, basically, a human sacrifice and it isn’t Rinoa he wants stripped and brought to his room when we’re taking prisoners, but he cared about her. He does taunt her about their past relationship, but we’ve already established this is just part of his communication skillset. Yes, I will elaborate more if asked, though it’s more feeling based than text based.

A wish: If there’s ever a sequel, let him have put out the good in the world that was his dream and be seen as a hero. Let us see a matured and peaceful Seifer.

An oh-god-please-dont-ever-happen: My one fear if they ever remake FFVIII instead of just porting it, is that some of the creative team have said they like the fan theory where you are dead part way through the game and the rest is a dying dream or purgatory. It’s creative stuff; I will say that. It’s not my favorite, and I don’t agree, but those kinds of fan interpretations when they go in depth are super cool. PLEASE LET THE INTEREST IN IT JUST BE THE SAME AS MINE OF THINKING IT’S CREATIVE BECAUSE MAKING THIS CANON WOULD BE SO, SO BAD FOR EVERY CHARACTER.

5 words to best describe them: stubborn, misguided, paladin, romantic, petty

My nickname for them: I don’t really have one

#seifer almasy #seifer x squall #squall x seifer #such a long post and still not all or even communicated that well probably #you don't have all the facts the facts are i love him #tina-nina

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ssnakey-b · 6 years

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FF8 Translarison, Part 1: Back to... university?

Hello everybody and welcome to the first part of my comparative look at the English and French translations of Final Fantasy VIII! And yes, I have decided to call it “Translarison”. Because it's a TRANSLAtion compARISON, you see. BTW, I shall use “Translarison” as a tag if you want to search for these specific posts more easily.

The main reason why I wanted to do this was that, being French, I obviously grew up with the French version of the game but a few years ago, out of curiosity, I played through the game in English after hearing about some minor differences, and discovered that there were a lot more than what I'd been told, to the point that certain characters, scenes and even subplots come across completely differently.

On top of that, I just found some of the different choices in translation conventions very interesting, and possibly quite telling of cultural differences, so comparing the two fascinated me.

I also found it interesting that in some aspects, the French version seems to be based off the original Japanese scripts, yet in others, it seems too close to the English one to be a coincidence. It's weird, to the point if I wonder if the translator(s) used both versions as sources (assuming the English translation was already finished while the French one was being worked on). But then, there are also a lot of things that don’t match either (especially when it comes to names), so it’s also interesting to see when the translator took some liberties.

Gonna tell you now, maybe it's just out of nostalgia but overall, I do prefer the French one as the characters generally come out better in my opinion, but there are parts where I like the English one better, and I will of course point those out.

Now, let me explain how I intend to work on this thing. Although this is sort of a Let's Play as I will go through the game and comment on it, it won't be a complete one as I will focus specifically on translation differences and analyse the most interesting ones (as it would get tedious to do so for every line of dialogue where all I'd have to say is “they pretty much say the thing, except in French), so I will skip around. I may give my opinions on random moments from the game if I feel particularly strongly about them, but like I said, it won’t be the focus. If you do want to know my thoughts on every bit of the game, you can read a more traditional Let’s Play I wrote here: http://officialfan.proboards.com/thread/536741/french-version-final-fantasy-finale

I do intend to be as thorough as possible and highlight stuff from side-quests, but obviously I won't be able to cover everything considering there are parts where you need to split the party up and you can't change it until way later. Hm... maybe I could go through those again with different configurations as bonus content. NOT A PROMISE.

It is also important to note that I am an amateur doing this for fun. I apologize in advance if some of my interpretations are a bit off. I can however guarantee that my schedule will never slip as my schedule is “whenever I feel like it”. Keep in mind I'm doing this on my free time and it takes a lot of time to go through it, especially since I have to go through it twice for this.

One last thing before we begin: do not hesitate to ask questions. I just realized I didn't have an “ask” button active on my blog, so I activate just for this, but of course you can also ask me stuff any other way you'd like. Oh, and feel free to request me looking at specific stuff from the game. As much of a ridiculous fanboy as I am for this game, even I don't remember or know everything about it (which is why it remains so fascinating so many years later!), and I probably won't think of re-visiting locations on my own if they aren't tied to a side-quest.

Right, that's enough blabbering, let's get to the actual game!

Nothing to say about the opening cutscene as it is still in English even in the French version, so let’s head straight for the infirmary. Not much different so far, though I do find this bit interesting. When Quistis arrives, in the English version, she says:

But in the French version, she says:

Which translates to “Good lord! I knew it would end badly”. You get the same idea in both versions, that Quistis is used to Squall and Seifer fighting and getting into trouble, I just find it interesting that one version chose to specifically name the characters, whereas the other chose to focus more on Quistis lamenting her students’ behaviour. I should also point out that logically, Quistis must have picked up Seifer first, so the French version makes a bit more sense because, well... of course you knew it’d be him, you must already be aware of what happened.

Also, note how the French version doesn’t have quotation marks. While I think it looks better without them, I can see why the English version does that as it shows more explicitly that the names aren’t part of the dialogue.

The conversation between the two in the hallway is very similar in both versions but there is one thing I find funny:

There’s a line in the English version where Squall says “I am more complex than you think” which is pretty much word-for-word the same in French, but Quistis’ reaction is different. In the English version, she just asks him to tell her more about himself, while the French one, she uses the above line. You see, “complexé” is a word that pretty much means “hung up”, so she’s teasing him about his attitude.

I really like this dynamic between the two because whereas the characters’ angst is usually glorified in other FF games, here Quistis is seeing right through him (with her Laser Eyes!) and is having none of his crap. Also, it’s one of the few times the characters are being a bit more rude than in the English one. Not that Quistis is really being mean, but you get the idea.

On an unrelated note, I never noticed it before but as they pass by, there’s a dude who checks out Quistis and two girls look at Squall and then giggle to themselves. I love little details like that.

Next, we get to the classroom. Still only minor differences, like Quistis saying that “it won’t be a surprise to anyone” that the field test is this afternoon whereas the English version has her mention there have been rumours, which kind of implies that they just drop on the kids that they’re gonna partake in a genuine battle at the last minute.

As any seasoned FF8 player knows, the first thing to do is to pick up our trusty Guardian Forces, Shiva and...

... Golgotha?! Yes, here is the first renaming of the game. Give it a round of applause! It’s an odd one, seemingly a reference to the hill Jesus of Nazareth was crucified on. I guess it’s because the creature has a vaguely crucifix-like shape when it spreads its wings. I have to admit Quetzalcoatl is more fitting as it is a reptilian-looking flying creature, so it’s close to a winged serpent, but I guess Golgotha is less of a pain to pronounce, and it actually fits with the character limit.

Not much else of note aside from the fact that in the Garden Square forum, Almasy is misspelled as Almassy. And considering how much of an ass Seifer is, it seems fitting. Also, one of the students uses the initials J.I in the English version whereas they use O.S. in the French one, and I don’t know why.

Quistis tells us to meet her at the front gate, we leave and bump into Selphie, setting up the romance between the two. Oh wait, no. Don’t know if it was intentional, but I always loved that they played with the old “bump into each other at school” cliché by NOT having the two characters get romantically involved. And it goes to show how overdone it was that even my 11-years-old self was aware of it.

I prefer when Squall is slightly less antisocial so I have him give Selphie a short tour of Balamb Garden University. Yes, Balamb Garden University. In what is in my opinion one of the more interesting minor changes, the Gardens are referred to as universities. And although the other two retain their original names, B-Garden is indeed known as Balamb Garden University (and yes, they keep the name in English), or BGU for short.

I realize that when you think about it, it doesn’t really make sense since they teach children below college age and in fact, considering the max age to apply for SeeD is 20, they wouldn’t have that many college-age students, but I like the more academic-sounding name. Come to think of it, Balamb Garden Academy would probably make more sense. Oh well.

Not that much different regarding the map but I wanted to show off the fact that even on pre-rendered stuff, the text usually is translated, which again is a nice attention to detail (although accents are omitted for some reason, which makes me think perhaps the graphics were updated using a non-European keyboard).

Well, time to look around good old Balamb Garden University. First stop, the quad (or campus, in French), for two odd changes. First, there’s a generic male student who explains that all members of the festival committee have been dispatched around the world. In the English version, he then explains that in spite of Selphie’s enthusiasm, it doesn’t seem likely it’s gonna happen:

But in the French version, he instead says that their task is to solve armed and political conflicts:

And on the same screen is one of the weirder changes. In the English version,Selphie asks Squall if he’s interested in what she’s doing. In the French one, though, she asks if he’s interested in her. But more bizarrely, in the French version, instead of the generic “Interested/not interested” choices, the first option is “a little bit (physically)”.

And in both versions, she then tells him that in that case, he should join the festival committee. Naughty French Selphie, using sex-appeal to get new members! But now, get ready to have your mind blown as we head for the cafeteria and we meet the Disciplinary Committee, because..

... French Fujin can actually use her adult words! In fact, pretty much none of the language tics found in the English version have made it to the French one, so Raijin doesn’t go “ya know?” all the time either and indeed, French Squall doesn’t say “Whatever” either.

And frankly, good riddance as far as I’m concerned. I assume it’s something the English translator(s) added and I hate it. It might be funny for five minutes, but it completely kills characterization and I hate losing development for the sake of “OH! HE SAID IT! IT KEEPS GETTING FUNNIER AND NOT ANNOYING AT ALL THE MORE YOU DO IT!”

But if you thought THAT was crazy, hold on to your underwear because here comes another bombshell:

BOOM!! Hot dogs have been replaced with pretzels! Or as we like to call it where they actually come from (and yes, I do live in France but my region also has them as a local dish), bretzels. With a B. Apparently, in the original Japanese, it was a special kind of bread instead. No idea how many more localizations there are. It’s a bit weird that they went with pretzels too, as it’s very specific to some areas of Europe, whereas hot-dogs are also famous here (which lends credence to my theory that the French version was made independently from the English one).

Anyway, take a minute to pick up the shattered pieces of your world and let’s continue. You know these faculty guys with their rice hats? Well for starters, they’re referred to as “templier” (which means “templar”) in the French version. Also, there’s one hanging around the library and when you talk to him, in the English version, he calls Squall a “problem child” whereas in the French version, he calls him “the famous Squall”.

I kind of like the English version a little bit more, if only for how bluntly tactless the guy is being (why, he’s almost as bad as Squall!), and yeah... “problem child” is putting it lightly.

Inside the library is another small change that I find amusing. You know this short-haired girl near the draw point?

Well, in the French version, she says she wishes they had “olé-olé” books, which... is a term that can’t really be translated directly but basically means “naughty” or “smutty”. So yeah, if you thought the English version was being too subtle for you when she said she likes “romance novels”, you can rest assured she absolutely means the Harlequin kind of “romance”.

But enough lolligagging, let’s head for the Fire Cavern, which in French has become the Mines de Soufre, or Sulfur Mines. And here we already have one of the most interesting changes in the game. You know how in the English version, there is this dialogue:

Well, in the French version, it goes like this:

That’s right, the French version goes in a completely different direction, almost the exact opposite, in fact. Now, I remember reading that in the Japanese version, Quistis says something very similar to the English one and Squall thinks to himself “you’re a TEACHER”, meaning he doesn’t approve of how lightly she’s taking her role, so it’s probably a misinterpretation on the French translator’s part, but I love that version.

For starters, I think it speaks volume about Quistis. It highlights her insecurities about being a teacher, and students questioning her credibility due to her young age and lack of experience, while being oblivious to the fact that... yeah, being all alone with an attractive woman about their age , whose weapon of choice is a whip, would distract quite a few students. Hell, it seems to suggest she doesn’t even realize how absurdly beautiful she is. In every version, she deflects it by saying she’s only joking, but still, it seems there is more truth to it than she lets on.

But it also gives Squall more personality, showing that for his cold demeanour, he’s not a robot and he isn’t insensitive to an attractive woman’s charm,and he even shows a bit of a sense of humour. That shows a surprisingly large amount of layers on both characters for such a small bit of dialogue.

Also, the English version makes Quistis come across as more flirtatious, whereas the French one makes her seem more naive, despite her efforts to look like a tough instructor. And this shows one of the major differences between the English and French versions as the kind of romantic subtext between the two is very much downplayed here.

I like that a lot because while many people like to think that Quistis does have romantic feelings for Squall, or at least used to have some, I always found it very refreshing to have two fictional characters of opposite genders who work together and are just friends.

That’s not to say she wouldn’t question her feelings and whether or not they truly are platonic at some point, it seems unlikely that it would never come up, but I find the idea that her relationship with Squall is more friendly or sisterly a lot more interesting than yet another romantic sub-plot.

There isn’t really anything else to mention for the rest of the test so I think I’ll end this part here. And next time, we’ll be taking a look at the assault on Dollet!

I hope you all enjoyed this first part. Please feel free to comment and discuss and once again, do not hesitate to ask questions. Oh and if you liked it, a reblog would be nice to help spread the word. Thank you very much and see you soon!

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