#things like this are the reason why people think bylers are delusional aren't they?

[buck-yyyy]

Mike’s Pocket - AKA, Theo losing his goddamn mind over FUCKING fabric

Okay, so I’ve talked about this before, you’ve definitely read about this before, everyone knows about Pocketgate by now—so, instead of reiterating old points, I’m gonna summarize my opinions (and therefore what I’m drawing from for this whole thing) the stuff that we’ve all been over and then I can talk about fun stuff >:D

1. Finn Wolfhard said that the pocket was sideways!

Okay, yes he did say that, but I also need everyone to look at the pocket closely for a second.

See that thick shadow and creasing at the top? The pocket opens from the top, meaning that it can’t open from the side (underneath the triangle) because it needs to be attached by at least three sides—otherwise, it would be hanging off. There is no way for the pocket to open from the side, because it wouldn’t be structurally sound—additionally, we would see the fabric creasing to accommodate that opening, whether or not there’s a cover over it. That triangle opens (we can see that the metal circle is the same kind of snap closure that’s at his neckline), but it’s purely decorative.

2. The triangle points to Will all the time!

HELL YEAH! GONNA GET INTO THAT!

3. There’s a letter in the pocket! Hm. See, this is where I’m torn, because I love the idea, but also, I don’t think it… makes sense? Even folded up notebook paper (because it would have to be folded to fit) would be noticeably bulging (hate that word for…chronically online reasons) against the fabric and noticeably pushing it out. This anon I got a while back makes a good point, but I’m not a huge fan. I just feel that we would see the letter in the pocket, because even if (like the anon said) they’re planning on him having a letter, he wouldn’t have had it in that pocket because changes of clothes do exist, and after several sweat, dirt, blood and grime filled days in the same clothes, no matter how much of a teenager Mike is, he would one HUNDRED percent change out of that thing as soon as he had the chance. No point in keeping it around.

4. Triangle imagery = queercoding!

FUCK yes. The woman in charge of costume design literally said that she purposely incorporated triangle patterns and organization into Robin’s clothing, there’s absolutely zero reason to believe that she wouldn’t do that for other characters that are intended to be queer.

FUN PART NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just finished my fourth or fifth rewatch of season 4 today, and I noticed something kinda neat—it almost seems like there’s… two jackets?

I’ve talked before about my theory that they used interfacing in the pocket (because we know that it’s handmade) to draw our attention to it, and I stand by that based on the way that it moves—in certain scenes.

A fabric that’s reinforced with interfacing will bend, but it will NOT bend the normal way fabric does. It doesn’t quite follow the shape of your body—I mean, it will follow the curve roughly, but it’ll kinda make its own shape. I wish I had an example, but I don’t own any clothes with interfacing, aaand my mom already looked at me like I was insane when I ran in to bend the collar of my dad’s shirt to hopefully get an example, so. You’re just gonna have to take my word for it. 

For example- interfacing in the collar of his shirt to keep it stiff!

NOW, FOR A REFERENCE!

Alright. Here’s a shirt made out of what I’d wager is a pretty similar fabric, although I think it’s slightly more flexible than what Mike is wearing. (If I see any of y’all insulting my fashion taste I Will End You)

When the fabric around it is scrunched, it keeps its shape, yes—but the fabric of the pocket creases slightly in places where it already had wrinkles. And what about when it’s actually on?

I hope you all know I bound my chest (at almost 11pm) so I could make this as accurate as possible without it getting in the way. 

Anyways, see how when my arm is close to it, it bends? Mike’s only does this, like, half the time.

This is a terribly blurry image, but you can see that the pocket is facing Argyle, and is bending perfectly naturally with his arm pressed up against the side of the shirt. It matches the shape of his pose, and it doesn’t look like there’s anything in there. Regular pocket! No interfacing!

Points to Jonathan, and it’s a little stiff, sure, but it's creasing pretty normal. Likely just a stiff jacket.

This one is,,, tricky. It looks pretty stiff, I’d agree. 

But look closely! The black lines are where it creases and wrinkles with the shape of the rest of the fabric, and the white traces how the shape of the pocket follows the shape of the edge of his shirt.

And oh, my favorite ever example (and the reason I’m looking into this to begin with) <3 that pocket is moving NORMALLY and it’s facing EL!!!!! RIGHT AS HE’S SUPPOSEDLY ABOUT TO SAY ILY!!!!!!!!

But let’s look at some examples where it IS facing Will. 

NOW THAT’S AN INTERFACED BEND! JUST A LITTLE BIT TOO PERFECTLY CURVED! Notice the difference between how it’s bending in this versus when he’s with El in the last example! (of course, the difference in pose should also be accounted for, but still. That is HEAVILY drastic.)

FUCKKKKKKK YEAH BAYBEE

STIFF! ASS! POCKET! I mean, it’s nearly straight (heh), whereas Will’s is way more curved. They’re both slouching and facing the same direction. 

(Tracing isn’t perfect but my point still stands.) 

Anyways, I fully believe that there’s two copies of this jacket—one for scenes with Will on Mike’s left, in order to draw attention to the triangle/arrow; and one for scenes without him. Thoughts?

#things like this are the reason why people think bylers are delusional aren't they? #anyways my back hurts so bad from hunching over my computer for over an hour T-T #stranger things #byler #will byers #mike wheeler #pocketgate #stranger things analysis

[paintingformike]

Bc, some people think those moments were meant to draw a contrast rather than a direct parallel.

People think that Will being in between Mike and El's scenes is not necessarily there to imply that Mike likes Will but rather is there to show Will's unrequited feelings, because Will was blurred whereas Robin was at the center of the scene where we watched her visibly being sad but Will was not sad, he was blurred in the background and when Mike and El have a forehead touch moment, he is entirely out of the picture.

Also, people do not exactly notice which music plays at which scenes. Only if they are interested in analyzing or searching, then they can find. Another example is, we know about the 'tender emotional music' because we focused on that and then made an analysis, but even then that wouldn't necessarily look like byler proof to the other parts of the audience, esp when that same music also plays for a melvin scene in one of the scenes where they talk.

It's also that Dan and Vickie broke up but Dan is just some random character, whereas El is a main character and we have been following Mike and El's relationship for seasons (that's how the audience thinks), and they gave Mike a huge monologue, whether or not we argue that it happened due to Will, it still happened. Even if Mike and El do not exactly talk, it does not look like a byler proof for some people but it rather looks like a casual relationship drama which will be resolved in S5 like Jonathan and Nancy's underaddressed situations.

I am saying this bc while I am a byler shipper and I think the narrative has a chance to make Byler fully canon, I also have many queer friends or in general friends who belong to GA, and I can also understand their points when they say that they do not see byler happening because majority of the proof that we have seem far-fetched, random or delusional to them.... or just not enough of proofs in general.

yes i literally just said i know people find it harder to believe in byler because main characters are involved in the love triangle whereas dan and vickie are side characters, and that’s as far as i’ll get their sentiments.

about all your other points, yeah i know that these are all reasons why people from the GA think most byler proofs are farfetched...but it doesnt mean their arguments are valid and understandable though lmao. the rovickie/byler parallels aren't even that hard to pick up on, and if it was only meant to contrast the two relationships then will being out of focus while robin isn’t wouldn’t be the ONLY thing different about their scenes cause everything else is pretty much identical to each other, mike and vickie even have similar conflicted expressions when they look at will and robin (and its ON THEM for not noticing that). also even if will is blurred out he still stands out the most cause he’s dead in the middle of mike and el’s faces and his figure immediately draws your attention (heck he was the first thing i noticed as a casual viewer while watching vol 2), which makes no sense for someone who’s supposed to be just “entirely out of the picture”...and about the monologue. something tells me its just double standards against a queer ship cause this isn’t exactly the first time a character seemingly professes their undying love for another character but still ends up with someone else 🤔

what im trying to say is yeah its true that they have all these reasons for not believing in byler endgame but at the end of the day...how am i just supposed to understand the points they have when they’re the ones who cant read into things that aren’t supposed to be very complicated when you have common sense, and i dont really think their thought process/reasonings are particularly strong anyway. also in this context...the rovickie/byler parallel is literally one of our least “random” byler proofs that just came out of thin air, its very much in your face so 😭 i guess i’d understand if you were talking about other more tiny background hints in relation to this topic but this one is pretty blatant...sorry for going into a tangent

#if i started sounding mean sorry anon im just tired of seeing these same arguments all the time #esp the one about the focus in the rovickie scene vs the mlvn reunion bc...its rlly not that hard to understand why they filmed it that way #all that aside...its on them for being narrow minded while watching the show and immediately dismissive of byler proof #byler

[emblazons]

hi again! i'm back with more thoughts as promised (nearly a month late but oh well)

just wanna start off by saying that i really appreciate your comprehensive response, as well as the other posts that you linked!! i feel like the point that i keep coming back to, the one that really hit the nail on the head and explained the crux of the issue is this-

it feels like every argument “for” Mike and El staying together is made by people so used to celebrating mediocre writing that they’re at a loss to process what’s happening when writing its done well and with intention

-this part in particular is why we're hit with the 'delusional' accusations so often. stranger things is a mainstream show, and mainstream shows are usually not made with the level of care and concern put into ST, especially when it comes to queer characters and storylines. like i said before, people are used to being spoonfed with in-your-face queer media and when it doesn't happen i see it being chalked up to simple 'bad writing' - or in the case of will's s4 storyline - a supposed complete lack of respect for these characters.

i have seen so many people express disappointment that will did not get a coming out scene in season 4, and didn't actually use the word gay, so much so that noah schnapp himself felt the need to comment on somebody's tiktok about how will was still so young and would get to have his moment once he was ready (which, not to get parasocial or make assumptions, but that must have been so frustrating for him to hear repeatedly while being in the closet himself). these mainstream fans are jumping to conclusions and assuming that will not coming out in season four means that the duffers are homophobes and don't have any respect for queer people.

never mind that they've had this in their pitch before this show was even made. never mind that they've been intentionally pulling out this storyline since season one and that "it's been their vision for a long time." never mind that they've said over and over that will is going to be a central point of season five and that his sexuality arc will continue into the final season. because he couldn't come out in s4, the duffers must be homophobes, right?

and this also goes hand in hand with the whole painting situation. people who believe that ST is just another mainstream show genuinely and honestly think that it will never be brought up again, despite the main catchphrase of the show being 'friends don't lie.' they really think that the painting has served its purpose, and that the duffers aren't "smart" enough to bring will's elaborate lie up again. they think that we've left the storyline there, with will giving up his sad unrequited feelings for mlvn's sake and that nothing could ever come from this. lots of people, even those rooting for byler, have been burned over and over again by bad writing and are pessimistic to the point where they don't want to believe that anything good could ever happen for fear of being hurt again.

but that is just the folks who do want byler to happen - when it comes to byler antis, even the reddit bros who recognize that ST has more effort put into it than most shows still use this excuse of 'it's a mainstream show, they're never going to do that' as a reason to why byler is impossible because they're just so used to mainstream media catering to the mostly cishet audience since that's the way it's always happened. they cannot fathom the idea that this show is different and isn't for them, despite all of the evidence screaming otherwise.

and their refusal to “sink to their audience level” in that way means people who are just heteronormative and might not mean any real harm by it are intentionally left in the cold. not just because it means people miss fairly straightforward subtext, but because they haven’t even been taught that subtlety is a thing you can do

this is 100% true as well. i think in most GA cases, the lack of belief in byler endgame isn't even malicious, it's just that like you said, they were never taught to look deeper and analyze media critically (that, or they were watching ST while also being on their phone half the time and thus missing all the subtext). these are the kind of people who wouldn't be mad about byler happening, but would probably be left a little confused because the heteronormative goggles are so thick that they'd never even considered byler as a possibility. but hey, the upside of this is that s5 will inevitably boost the rewatchability of the show so that people can go back and find the clues they previously missed and marvel at the fact that their favorite piece of mainstream media gave them a narrative that was this clever.

also, i think i've mentioned this before, but it's interesting to note that my ten-year-old sister was able to pick up on byler endgame immediately. when we watched vol 2 together in august, she took one look at the final shot and said to me, "so, will and mike are getting together next season, right?" and as she's someone who hates mike, she complained to me for a good hour or so about having to watch will end up with him next season. she's not in the fandom and was obviously not someone who was looking for clues about byler endgame - in fact she's someone who strongly disliked the idea of them together - and yet she was still able to see it. to her, it was obvious, and i think it's because she's so young that she hasn't had time to be burdened by heteronormative society yet. for her generation, mike choosing between el and will is no different from nancy choosing between steve and jonathan, and so she's free from the blinders that most of the audience is still shackled with and is able to pick up on the subtextual clues far more easily.

(oh, and she's come around about byler since then because apparently mike is "more tolerable" to her when he's around will.)

anyway, i hope this jumble of thoughts made some semblance of sense to you. i, for one, am very much looking forward to the "curtain is blue" + the heteronormative crowd to be blown away next season and for ST to set a precedent of higher quality show-not-tell stories, both in terms of queer media and just general storytelling, that will be followed up on for years and years to come ✌🏼

(no pressure about responding to this ask btw!! i know it was really long and you probably have a lot of other asks and posts to get to before then ahah)

this is a 12/10 response—I don't even want to give any notes lmao

I think it really is that special mix of heteronormativity / homophobia combined with media illiteracy and just...a lot of bad TV that makes it hard for a lot of people to fathom that Stranger Things is going to do something several shows have failed at historically: namely, writing not one, but two different queer individuals with 5 seasons of independent purpose and depth before getting them together, and with the same respect for their romance as a slow-burn straight story (while showing, not telling). I do see us slowly getting better told stories that honor queer people in movies, but...shows have been a lot slower, particularly mainstream ones / ones that don't specifically cater to queer audiences, especially in the US.

Since your first ask we've gotten The Last of Us Episode 3 reminding us that yeah, people can write deeply satisfying queer stories into shows that aren't necessarily queer—and without officially labeling the character's sexuality before they get together—but the radical fact that people have grown with Mike and Will for nearly a decade only to watch them fall in love (in a way true to their individual arcs) will be revolutionary in a lot of ways.

The binge model Netflix has worked with since ST dropped has made people less aware of the fact that its a better written show than most of the ones they've watched, you're right—and people the world over who only watched it casually will flock to watch it (or watch it over) once they realize what The Duffers have done. I will respect Matt & Ross forever for committing to setting a better precedent for queer stories in mainstream media, once this story is done lmao.

Thanks for the ask! And feel free to send more! :)

#lmao rae I might have asks but I'm gonna answer this first for sure #everyone needs to read what you said LMAO #ice-sculptures #asks

[0aurelion-sol0]

To be honest... This whole script thingy is so suspicious to me.

Somehow some anonymous decided to read the script of Stranger Things Season 3, the most divisive and complex season to date which was about bad communication, unhealthy relationships, complex and vague situation of Mike and El's relationship. The same script who had tons of elements pointing to something much deeper between Mike and Will. The same script pointing out the issues that are happening with Mike's sexuality AND El's vision of her relationship. The same script who clearly is telling us now, upfront that Will IS gay by the same character who has been so confusing about his own sexuality this season.

And somehow...

Everything about those elements dissapeared from the script right after the anonymous reported it.

Like...

Unless someone reads the metas of somebody and saw the original script and wanted to read it or wanted to write a meta.

WHO THE FUCK READS A SCRIPT ?!

It's so weird. And I seriously doubt that they now would change the script after what 2 or 3 years when the season 4 script is already done and they are currently still filming.

They filmed with that script and with all of those elements that was inside that script which was clearly shown in the scenes that were filmed.

It would have been different if it was posted right after the original one. But the original script has been on the internet for a long time.

Apparently they removed the fact that El and Will were both disgusted by Mike's burp but...

WE SEE THAT THEY ARE DISGUSTED IN THAT SCENE! There is even a close-up on their face when it happens.

We see Mike's confused face after El kisses him and leaves.

I don't trust it, I DO not trust it.

And right after that there is a supposed "leak" of a season 4 script.

All that is too convenient.

And after that I want to say, can we please stop freaking out the minute something doesn't go our way and take a moment to just analyze what that information might be ? This fandom is always on edge about everything.

First and foremost, you have CANON which is the TV Show and unless we are delusional which we are not because those elements that dissapeared are still in the show.

I just rewatched it. IT'S STILL THERE.

Can we leave pessimism behind ?

Everytime it's doubt, doubt, FREAKING OUT, sadness and maybe "something else because we don't think it's gonna be canon or for some other stupid reason".

It's nothing new at this point and I don't want to fall into that state of mind again. Let's just leave it behind.

Can we just be positive and just allow ourselves to think about the many possibilities that the show can offer to us ? (Or even the world ? 🙂)And just take the CANON as the main source rather than some leaks or mysterious script changes that doesn't really change anything or align with the canon.

Considering how many people likes to fuck with people by making fake scripts, videos or teasers, I would be extremely cautious when something like that happens. We had one thing that was similar last year.

I mean Season 2 scripts aren't changed and we KNOW which relationship season 2 explored.

So please, just stay calm and stop freaking out on something that is probably not that important. And if anything they probably want to go for a twist-twist if they did change anything. (They probably could have seen that the fandom picked upon that and didn't want that but even than why? WHY would they market Byler so much after season 3 on twitter AND instagram ?)

And no matter what nothing is really impactful as the whole fandom has already seen the original script.

And besides I think it's already been confirmed by Shawn Levy that the original script that was posted IS the true script of Season 3 so NO this whole thing is probably just someone messing with the fandom again.

Edit:

While it's been a long time and I'm sorry I couldn't have edited this sooner, the person who asked questions and reported about these leaks and script changes wasn't ill motivated or part of the ST crew. He was just worried and was questioning what was happening exactly. He also happened to have stumbled on toxic ST fans and Mileven fans who wanted to cause trouble and were also people who are known to be @kaypeace21 haters. They also compared to Trump.

So yeah, the anonymous person wasn't trying to cause problems. He was genuinely worried.

So don't harass or be mean to that person if you know them.

#byler #will byers #mike wheeler #stranger things #eleven hopper #jane hopper #stranger things season 3 #stranger things season three #stranger things season four #stranger things season 4