#some of them like it - others don't really care - but Othello + Grell WILL talk bc they have ADHD and are used to watching movies together | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

azuresins · 10 months

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*Builds a blanket fort, crawls inside, puts up a sign that says "Grelle Haters/transphobes do not interact with this post I am TALKING TO MYSELF PLEASE BE NORMAL THANK YOU*

This was pointed out a long, long time ago but it's never left my mind.

One thing I do miss about the anime adaptation S1, are a few of the filler-moments and Grelle interactions, specifically during the time when Grelle and Ciel were 'teaming up'... Ciel promised Grelle that if she helped him, Grelle could do anything they wanted with Sebastian.

And Grelle's immediate response was "...Even a kiss/kissing?" ... people, and even people who have worked on kuro content like the musicals, Season 2 (GODDDD), and other random material that's technically official... have been kind of quick to paint Grelle as this huge scary pervert, simply because what... They're outside of gender norms and that's what makes them predatory? Not that I dunno, they befriended a serial killer, and killed people who weren't supposed to die?

Ciel seemed pretty happy to allow Grelle full permission and access to do whatever they wanted with Sebastian and it doesn't really matter if he intended to make good on the promise or not, the point is all Grelle asked for was a kiss. They didn't ask to fuck him, some hot and steamy night or whatever (and we all know Sebastian fucks) they only asked for a simple kiss.

That's pretty innocent, all things considered. I think... she talks a big talk and walks a big walk, but she's probably a virgin, and after the laughs deep down she's actually extremely careful with her body, and who she takes to bed. IF she takes anyone to bed- I'm not actually sure she does, or not. I haven't seen a TON of fanwork, reflecting that very often and I can't say I blame fans for reacting that way because there's so much Grelle content out there but not much of it is connected to Manga canon at all... I just feel like that was a nice choice, on the part of the writers of S1.

It also warmed my stupid cold heart when Grelle stumbled upon a baby crying during the fire in london, and knelt to acknowledge it and tell it that she's not allowed to take it's life, just yet. People I think misunderstood that interaction and assumed they were being cruel or something-- I interpreted it as them acknowledging the infant and gently telling them, it wasn't their time, therefore it's possible someone else off camera rescued the baby and it got to live it's life. Some people are just really quick to assume the worst of them and I'm pretty sure 'degenerate' has been used to describe them before and I don't think that's fair, and I also don't see it.

When people pointed out in the past "but but but but Grelle tries to touch people without permission!" I take it with such a fat fucking huge grain of transphobic salt, because Madame Red full on rubs Sebastian's entire ass, RACHEL thought nothing of squeezing her own sisters tits, Sieglinde gropes Our!Ciel, I have NO idea whats going on with "Freckles/ Freckle Face" and their gender but they takes Our!Ciel's hand and make him grab their tit, and then there's all the filthy things Sebastian does. Not to mention the actual cultists/rapists, and kelvin who is an actual disgrace and sick fuck and Lao????????? I'm?????

Grelle all things considered is like THE LAST person in this manga I'd call a pervert. I know S1 isn't canon, and the plot kind of went off the rails... but I actually really liked those choices. PUT THEM BACK. 😠

In the manga and in official art drawn by Yana, I've noticed over the years Grelle has been drawn significantly more feminine, people who have never seen Grelle before can look at these pictures and not distinguish them from a cis woman... and I think that's a very nice choice, I just hope that we get more canon interactions with Grelle on a bit more of a personal level the way we did in S1, seeing as they're one of Kuro's more popular characters.

I find it an interesting choice that Othello has been just about the only character shown so far, that appears to be the most gentlemanly/respectful of her (and also hasn't tried to fight her/beat her lol) and for that reason... I think they're kind of cute, together and I hope they continue to be teamed up even if Grelle doesn't appear impressed or interested, I simply... can not unsee it. I am looking, I am NOTICING... very hard, and very respectfully in that ships direction even if it's kind of a rarepair and one-sided on Othellos part.

If William can stop beating her up for comic relief, that'd be great... but maybe I hope for too much. I think it'd be super, super, super funny if Grelle was gone for a few months, completed their transition and suddenly William fell all over his own ass and turned into a stuttering moron (because shes too beautiful) she was just, "Hiiii Will~ Gonna hit me again for filing my paperwork late? God forbid women do ANYTHING." And he was just. "Uh. --I'm.. -- No. That's enough. ////" I can see it very vividly in my head.

Anyway every time I talk about Grelle I get some weirdo in my askbox but I've been holding these thoughts in for quite some time...//////////

#personal post #azure #talking a lot about Grelle

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abybweisse · 2 years

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Well I have a question.

So.. we know reapers aren't supposed to interfere with human lives. But my question is, what are the higher-ups in the shinigami realm teaching their up-and-coming reapers to ensure there are very few rule breakers of this particular stipulation? For instance, I know you've said before that you think Undertaker may have had children with Cloudia specifically to break that kind of interference rule or the karmic incarnation theory.

But I was wondering, what are they telling them? If they told them that it was possible to have children with humans, they would probably spread their genes and be less afraid of relations with humans. If they told them that it's not possible, then they could lose the ability to care and just run around the human realm doing whatever they want.

If they tell them that relations with humans would cause timeliness problems or something along those lines, even then there will always be those few who can't be bothered with it.

So, that leaves one thing for me. The reapers must have some kind of fear instilled in them to keep them so in line. I know too you just covered something about the reapers perhaps being forced to stay in line by some sort of procedure to alter their records or personality. But again, there's always going to ne reapers who will talk. Unless they perform a mass alteration everytime a rumor goes around, I theorize they probably threaten the reapers with this alterment or something similar to strike that fear into them to stay in line.

Now, we've only seen a few reapers in the series, so maybe this IS a common problem, but in small side scenes they seem to be very much in line and orderly. None of them have any indication that they're in trouble all the time, plus I get the feeling Grell or Othello would have mentioned it at some point. I'm not sure. I really feel like it's some sort of fear that would stop these kinds of interactions, but I don't know. Thoughts? You always have more insights than I do 😂

⚠️ This is a beast of a long post. ⚠️

Keeping reapers in line

It might be harder and more complicated than we think it is to keep a bunch of reapers under control.

I imagine it’s a mixture of conditioning techniques (brainwashing, basically), an atmosphere where anyone could tattle on each other at any given time, maybe tracking devices in their glasses, and potentially alterations of cinematic records. Even their very design could be part of how they are controlled.

Ever read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley? If not, I highly recommend it. I don’t want to give too much away, but it’s about a dystopian society that uses advanced technology and social conditioning methods to "hatch", raise, and further control the population. Outside the World State, there are still other populations, but they are treated as “savages”. Within the World State, the family unit has been abolished, books are banned, people have been bred to fit into a caste system, and they are raised to fulfill the roles chosen for them. The lowest castes are taught to fear things they would naturally be attracted to (like pretty flowers, furry kittens, etc.), and that’s largely how they are controlled or kept focused on their tasks or roles; they usually don’t seek out what they are intended to avoid, such as random distractions or even nicer things than what they have. While the highest castes are typically controlled through more pleasurable stimuli, like rewards and a reinforced sense of superiority. Oh, but everyone, regardless of caste, has access to a particular drug… called soma. Yes, soma. The basic idea is that everyone has a purpose in the World State, but no one is to stray from the purpose chosen for them. Bernard Marx doesn’t quite belong in the caste he was born into, but enough on that... for now....

Chapter one starts out with:

A squat grey building of only thirty-four stories. Over the main entrance the words, Central London Hatchery and Conditioning Centre, and, in a shield, the World State's motto, Community, Identity, Stability.

Imagine living in 1932 and reading about a future in which a 34 story building was considered "squat". 😦 🤯

Anyway, what I’m getting at is: how reapers are controlled might depend on their rank as a group within the Afterlife, as well as their individual rankings within the reaper organization itself. Like, one of the reapers says (but I can't remember where or who) that the soul collectors are the stars or celebrities of the organization, making them akin to Alphas in the World State. Those "girls in the administrative division" Ronald talks about group-dating with might be examples of the reaper parallel to the World State's Betas. And so on.

As people who once committed suicide and now suffer the punishment for it, reapers must be seen as somewhat lowly, maybe even detestable by others who have been judged differently. And when I say judged, I mean by whatever entity that decides which soul goes where for whatever reason. This is one of the reasons I theorize in favor of karmic reincarnation (aka reaper rebirth theory): the afterlife doesn’t need your body, it just needs your soul, and Undertaker says human bodies (with their brains and cinematic records) stay in the human realm. Reapers don’t judge souls, they only collect them or don’t collect them. And maybe sometimes add a comment to the report. The soul goes “somewhere” to be judged by “someone”.

Which adds to my theory that reapers aren’t even in charge of the reaper organization. They aren’t trusted to govern themselves because that would be like letting inmates act as the wardens of a prison. So, something judges their souls and decides they are to become reapers, as both punishment and chance for salvation or redemption or “forgiveness”.

So “they” say.

So the reapers believe….

But not Undertaker. Not anymore. He must escape and wants to tear down the entire system, and it must be something very big and terrible to make him want that. I have some old posts about this, like the idea that the superiors are angels but that these angels treat human souls much like demons do: they might eat them. Or the angels prepare human souls as meals for the gods to devour... or at least the "god of this world" to devour. This salvation they seek might not even exist. What if even they are eventually on the menu, once they've obtained "forgiveness"?

I do suspect there could be a lot of things going on to control active reapers, like:

Conditioning through threats/pain -- where new reapers are taught to believe they must be punished for killing themselves as humans. This is part of the fear aspect you mentioned. If you believe in salvation and damnation, and you are told you will be damned if you don't repent, chances are you will do as you are told and suffer what you think is temporary punishment... for fear of eternal damnation. This is like the BNW scene where Delta babies are tortured any time they reach out for things like flowers or books with nice pictures. They become conditioned to avoid such things, and this is called neo-Pavlovian conditioning. Similarly, reapers might become conditioned to avoid anything that would be seen as straying from the path to salvation. Having physical relationships with humans would be listed as one of the major no-no's. Fear of too much interaction with humans could be instilled in repetition of physical pain, but this might be harder to do with reapers, so it's probably accomplished with threats of eternal damnation... though it's definitely not 100% effective. Just look at Ronald flirting with Mey-Rin and girls he meets on the Campania. And, of course, there's whatever Undertaker has gotten himself into with the Phantomhives.

Conditioning through rote memory -- All conditioning includes repetition, but in this case it's not necessarily about instilling fear, so the process is painless. Techniques like this might be used for developing daily routines and instilling morals. In BNW, Alpha (highest caste for males) and Beta (highest caste for females) children are "taught" certain things by a process referred to as hypnopædia. It's where a soft voice repeats things to you as you sleep, the idea being that you will eventually (after enough repetitions) immediately recall these words whenever an applicable situation pops up. It's been ages since I read the novel, but I think the example used to explain it was about a kid who listened to geography facts while they slept, like about the Nile River? When prompted to answer a specific question, the kid couldn't think of a reply, but when someone asked them specifically about the Nile River (or whatever), the kid mindlessly repeated the words from the recording. When asked to explain what they just recited, they had no idea. Or they still couldn't answer the original question. It was determined this method couldn't be used to make people actually understand anything they were hearing on repeat, but it could seriously affect their behaviors. It gives them the World State-approved version of moral guidance. For instance, their roles as mass-consumers. Perhaps you have heard the idiom "A stitch in time saves nine"? It's the idea that making repairs to things, like clothing, as soon as you find a rip will make those items last longer. Hypnopædia is great for making these people repeat idioms and live by them without caring about whether it's actually a good idea. They reinforce these behaviors by regularly repeating such platitudes to each other. So one of theirs is "Ending is better than mending. The more stitches, the less riches", convincing them to toss away and replace broken/worn things instead of fixing/mending them. This has a few more examples. This has even more examples, and yes! I was right; the experiments started with trying to teach a boy about the Nile River. (A couple more links, here and here from Study.com, but you have to set up an account -- free, I think -- to read the full essays.) And yet another, including these gems: "Everybody’s happy nowadays" and "Every one works for every one else." In Black Butler, reapers sometimes say things that suggest they have been conditioned in a similar manner, though it might not be while they sleep... though it is definitely mentioned how they "require" sleep. 🤔 Consider these sorts of concepts or beliefs that reapers might repeat to others, whenever the words seem to fit the topic; they might actually be saying these things because they were taught to automatically make these sorts of statements whenever the opportunity arises. This reinforces objectiveness, timeliness, efficiency, and a sense of duty and contentment in their jobs, despite it being a form of punishment. Oh, and the "necessity" to not lose their glasses!

William: "We do this indifferently... level-headedly..." and "clock out in a timely fashion..."

Ronald: "I've always been part of the anti-overtime school..." and "being strictly against overtime on principle..."

Sascha: "I enjoy every day much more than when I was alive."

Othello: (about Undertaker) "...recover every single soul on his list, without mercy or delay" and (about problems) "It's crucial to detect and fix bugs at the earliest opportunity."

Conditioning with pleasure -- All World State citizens are also conditioned to seek out certain forms of pleasure, like recreational drugs (soma) and sex, but they are not to reproduce. In fact, the lowest castes are born infertile, so that they don't reproduce on accident. Betas (female) keep contraceptives handy at all times; the kits are called "Malthusian belts", and the responsibility of avoiding pregnancy really is left to them. Pleasure is a strong incentive. With the reapers, they might also be conditioned to give into their baser desires, but with serious restrictions. If the reaper rebirth theory holds out, they do reproduce, but they would be expected to reproduce among themselves only, so that all babies born are the next generation of reapers. We might not see female reapers in the human realm simply because they are kept under stricter control. That way, they won't become pregnant with a human's child. You would think that if being a reaper is punishment, and if reapers are reborn souls, then the organization could just banish all reproduction, so there would be no one left to require punishment, once the last active reapers are forgiven. But of course not. If they did that, who would collect human souls? How else would suicides receive the punishment they've been told they deserve? So, this system would have to maintain itself with the birth of new reapers from the suicides occurring in the human realm. This entire cycle is being forced upon them just to keep it going, which is a big reason why I don't think reapers are in charge of the organization itself; the "superiors" or "higher ups" must be something seen in the Afterlife as truly superior to reapers. But if reapers have libido and are allowed to act upon it within their own ranks, the incentive might be enough to keep their numbers replenished. We've seen William and Grelle complain about staff shortages, and that suggests this system might be slowly breaking down; fewer reapers are choosing to reproduce, at least among themselves. There seems to be no particular restriction on certain vices, though, like gluttony, smoking, drinking alcohol, etc. Othello has a hefty appetite, Undertaker has some major sweet tooth (apparently), Ludger smokes, and a few reapers have mentioned and/or have been seen consuming alcoholic beverages. It's even possible they don't really need food or sleep, but they've been told they do, and those things happen to be pleasurable for most people. Othello is definitely convinced he needs "sugar" to keep his brain working, and he might be right, but we don't really know for sure. Some other phrases in BNW are "A dramme in time saves nine", "A gramme is always better than a damn", "One cubic centimetre cures ten gloomy sentiments", "When the individual feels, the community reels", "Never put off till to-morrow the fun you can have to-day", and "Progress is lovely." Those first four phrases are all about taking the drug soma. I can imagine Othello going straight to food anytime he feels like he needs to think clearly after a stressful situation. The "fun you can have to-day" quote sounds like a Ronald line, and possibly Grelle. The progress quote makes me think of Sascha... but also makes me think about death scythe modifications. Like the World State, the reaper organization might actually promote consumerism and some other forms of pleasure-seeking. It would help explain why we've seen reapers sporting such high-end accessories, like their name brand watches, shoes, agendas, luggage, glasses, hats, etc. They have a tendency to seek out luxury goods and services, like Grelle's nail appointments. Even Sascha's interest in photography, which seems to be a mere hobby that has been incorporated into their work, since no one else is taking photos of the bodies they just collected souls from, might be one of these consumer-based pleasures that's being encouraged. It's also a nod to the appreciation of technological progress, even if it could be detrimental, which is a huge theme shared by Black Butler, Brave New World, and Mother3.

Control by monitoring -- In BNW, if I recall correctly, there are some monitoring/recording devices around the World State, so the powers that be can keep an eye on you to an extent. However, most of their monitoring is based on conditioning, which includes tattle-telling on anyone who isn't behaving as expected of their caste and of any other suspicious activity. They are not necessarily being tracked, but they are being monitored, to some extent, particularly by their own peers and superiors. I theorize that reapers are monitored more directly, and that there might even be tracking devices in their special glasses. Somehow, William shows up quite soon after Grelle kills Madam Red, who wasn't on the list of people to die. All her victims were slated to die, even if Grelle didn't assist, but Madam Red herself wasn't. This means that word of Madam Red's death got to William almost immediately. Perhaps as soon as her soul ascended for judgement? Then there's the fact William also apprehends Grelle for an unauthorized death scythe modification, meaning that modification must be new. It's the first time we see Grelle's death scythe at all, and we have no idea what it was before that scene. Not a chainsaw! But also not a training scythe, since we later find out Grelle upgraded from that as soon as training was complete. This information could have reached William any number of ways, including a mention of a chainsaw-shaped death scythe in the description of the report on Madam Red's untimely death. But how William knows where to find Grelle -- exactly which back-alley -- is the sort of information a tracking device could provide. And those glasses seem (to me) the best place to hide one. Another part of their conditioning would revolve around their need for the glasses and how they keep reminding each other not to lose them. Grelle has gone the extra step of keeping them on a fashionable chain, so if they come off, they aren't likely to go flying, unlike what happens to William in the reaper OVA and Ronald in the manga. I expect Othello's rimless pair without ear rests to fly off his nose at some point.... Anyway, what better place to put a tracking device than something they are expected to use all the time because they have been "bred" (for a lack of a better word right now) to need them? Only deserters, like Undertaker (and Alan and Eric) would dare to discard their glasses. If there's no tracking device in them, why get rid of them? Why not continue to use the glasses when they are still so nearsighted? They keep their death scythes when they desert.... So, yeah, I think those glasses are meant to be necessary for them largely because there's something in them that helps to monitor their whereabouts, and possibly even their activities. I believe the reason the reaper organization has trouble keeping track of deserters, like Undertaker, is because they don't keep their glasses.

Control by physical tampering -- World State citizens are all born in hatcheries, not hospitals or birthing centers. And these are all "bottle babies" (like "test tube babies"), a very wild concept to be mentioned as early as 1932! The hatchery specialists manipulate the fertilized eggs and the conditions in their artificial amniotic fluid in order to create members of the different castes. I hope that's not too much of a spoiler; it's explained early-on, just like the neo-Pavlovian and Hypnopædic techniques. Alphas and Betas are given the best embryonic conditions. Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons are given a progressively increased amount, respectively, of ethanol in their amniotic fluid, effectively simulating increased levels of fetal alcohol syndrome. There might be more to it than alcohol levels, but I distinctly recall that aspect. It comes up sometimes, since that guy Bernard Marx? I mentioned him way higher up in this insanely long post -- he's an Alpha, but there's a rumor that someone accidentally added alcohol to his bottle while he was "gestating". So, control over individuals in the World State begins before birth, and it effects every aspect of their lives. If reapers somehow retain their old human bodies, their bodies have to be manipulated to make them change into reapers. If reapers are given new adult bodies -- their souls are judged and placed into fully-formed bodies -- those new bodies have been created/designed to be nearsighted (as an excuse to make them rely on special glasses) and have various abilities that humans don't have. They can withstand severe injury and heal quickly, are fast and agile, and they can become invisible and even achieve some form of teleportation. Grelle can use techniques to change hair color, nail length and color, teeth shape, and other aspects of appearance at will; it could just be a glamor of some kind -- a trick. Undertaker can teleport right out of his clothes! Since some methods of suicide would have destroyed their human bodies, it seems fitting they would all just get new bodies, whether baby or adult. I personally really like the idea of their human bodies being left behind and their souls judged and placed into reapers being born. This gives the Afterlife a long time to condition reapers (using methods already mentioned) for their upcoming punishment, even before they are officially recruited and trained for active duty. As some of my readers have mentioned, they should need more than their souls to have any memories of their past lives as humans. Well, there are two ways to achieve this: 1. Either parts of their old cinematic records were taken, saved, and attached to their new bodies, or 2. They are provided with artificial memories. They would still have to go through something similar, if they weren't born but given new adult bodies. Now, as active reapers, they undergo some extra form of punishment whenever they break rules (and are caught). Grelle has to write a formal apology and undergoes a stint of suspension after being apprehended for killing Madam Red and making unauthorized death scythe modifications. I'm not entirely convinced that "suspension" doesn't already include a reaper's cinematic records being tweaked to make them more compliant and focused on their assigned work. But, more ominously, Othello warns that if Grelle had gotten into a serious fight with Undertaker and Sebastian at Phantomhive Manor (in front of all these humans), Grelle wouldn't get off so easily as before. What would Grelle have to go through, if that incident had occurred?!? When you are expected to work "to the bone until you are forgiven", according to Sascha, what's worse than suspension (which prolongs the punishment)? 👀 And what does Othello know about the possible punishments available? He's also threatened Undertaker with "picking his brains", which kind of suggests looking at his cinematic records, along with really picking at his brains. Undertaker isn't ready to be "dissected in his lab", and I can't blame him. Reapers this is done to might not know it's been done.

In a not-so-subtle way, Undertaker is likened to Bernard Marx in this comparison or parallel. Bernard is different from other Alphas in the World State, even though he is instrumental in developing some of the conditioning techniques (like hypnopædia), and he tries to rebel against it all. It works for a time; he even leaves the World State (deserts his post and everything) and lives among the "savages" for a while. But -- sorry for the big spoiler here!! -- eventually, he ends up back where he started. Back to the hatchery and conditioning center, back to the meaningless sex with Betas, back to all the consumerism and the soma holidays. Like the others, he looks forward to appearing and feeling young, until he's about 60... then dying (pumped full of pain meds) in a hospice bed... just to die and become fertilizer for their food crops and ornamentals. Literally. Plant fertilizer.

Othello might be the one who is actively involved in the process of keeping reapers in line (and something might have been done to put him back in line around the same time Undertaker first tries to escape, roughly 70 years prior to current events), but it's Undertaker who deserts his post and lives among the humans (likened to savages) for many years. And it's Undertaker who develops (or redevelops) cinematic record manipulation techniques... to reanimate the dead... the sort of thing other reapers once worried Othello might do. Perhaps learning about techniques used to control reapers is what finally sent him over the edge, so to speak, and convinced him he needed to escape. Oddly ironic, if the cinematic record manipulation is true, for Undertaker to use similar methods to make and control bizarre dolls....

Now, given that last fact -- that others once worried Othello might become the mad scientist -- Othello might be the parallel to Bernard Marx, and he's already been reconditioned and returned to reaper society. But, depending on what ends up happening to Undertaker, Undertaker might still end up being the ultimate parallel to the unfortunately anti-heroic Bernard. I've said before that Undertaker could get caught (if enough people team up to take him down), returned to the reaper realm/Afterlife, punished way more severely than Grelle ever was, and forced back into serving out the rest of his punishment... extended even more to make up for all the time he wasn't actively working towards their idea of salvation. Seems to me that any previous attempts to reform him failed, but this time?? I highly doubt Undertaker would easily give up and rejoin the reaper realm to become fertilizer become Othello's experimental lab rat... or go back to seeking "salvation". He'd probably rather die in combat....

Well, this post was both a pleasure and a life force-sucking endeavor for me. I sincerely hope it gives you both the pleasure and pain to read as it gave me to come up with (and type on my tiny iPhone keyboard). 😆

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