#so to argue that making ai art is evil even if you cannot make other kinds of art because 'art' comes from within-- well fuck that entirely

[greenedbeans]

There are a lot of issues with the ethics of ai art right now but it's really fucking something to see people consistently mad that it makes art accessible to others

#im seeyhing bc i saw a post like 'the art is inisde of you!! its called being human!! disability isnt an excuse for using ai art!!!' #so i go to their blog abd its all. 'dont be an ableist asshole!!!' and its like. oh okay cunt. #fuck all the disabled people who literally cant make art i guess! the art is inside them so they should be happy with that right?? #like literally this point is so fucking vile. the feeling of needing to make and not being able to is agony #and like. what an awful point. OBVIOUSLY art comes from within but thats not the fucking point #bc if it WAS we wouldnt feel the need to make art. we would be satisfied within our worlds with no urbe to reach out #*urge not urbe #but we DO make art and we do it at least partially to be HEARD and to be SEEN like no other method of communication offers #so to argue that making ai art is evil even if you cannot make other kinds of art because 'art' comes from within-- well fuck that entirely #also. people need to stop trying to define art in a way that differentiates True Divine Honest Art from lowly images or whatever #comes off very fashy and very you've never tried to make art #which the latter isnt an insult just that like. someone is trying to define something they have no experience with and it shows #and if op DOES make art then this whole thing is even more vile. i hate artists that try to deligitimize other art like this more than #a lot of other things bc i do make art and i have met those people and they are just fucking cruel full stop

[tonyglowheart]

in the great tradition of making up an argument in my head and writing about and publishing it a la the great philosophers of old except also this does come from posts I've seen around too lmao, I am back here today with a very correct opinion on Yan Wushi and Shen Qiao.

So. a couple of types of opinions I've seen in old meta posts give this impression that people are treating the "Yan Wushi believes humans are inherently evil"/"Shen Qiao believes humans are inherently good" as, like... fixed worldview/viewpoints that these respective characters have.

I simply do not think this is so. And I think it not only does a huge disservice to the characters and MengXiShi's writing, but imo it also affects the way you interpret the characters if you think that they respectively hold such fixed rules about the world as their viewpoint.

Like just on a general level, to ascribe so black-and-white, simplified, fixed worldview to these characters doesn't sit right with me because these kinds of rigid worldviews are very immature type of worldviews. To reference to Kohlberg's stages of moral development, to have such fixed "good"/"bad" views is a very conventional-stage way of thinking, and textual interpretations aside I think it'd be very foolish to have such a rigid, unnuanced worldview.

But beyond that, I just don't think the interpretation that either of them holds such rigid unnuanced worldview uncritically bears out in the text.

The biggest/easiest chunk of text to reference here is Chap 46, where SQ flashes back on something his Master Qi Fengge taught him:

“Because ‘tip of sword pointing upward’ is just a vague description. There’s no established rule defining whether one should point it up by an inch or two. Ah-qiao, rigidly adhering to the rules will only limit your own thoughts and visions, and this is true for learning martial arts as well as for conducting yourself.”

“There are many people in this world —— some of them are good, and some of them are bad. But there are even more who can’t be simply classified as ‘good’ or ‘bad’. They may not think in the same way you think, or walk the same path you walk. Just like the case with Yu Ai and Yuan Ying —— even the same set of sword arts looks slightly different in different people’s hands. Don’t deny others just because they are different from you. Like how the ocean is capable of holding water from thousands of rivers, a person should be forgiving and tolerant to diversity, and it is the same for practicing martial arts. People who are narrow-minded can only achieve so much. Even if they do reach the summit, they cannot stay there for long.”

(QQ ch46, snowycodex tl, emphasis added)

I like this chapter since I think this helps sum up a lot of transferable concepts that imo we see bear out in SQ's conduct and worldview.

So I think, rather than saying "he believes that humans are inherently good," a more accurate way to describe it is "he believes in the inherent goodness (the possibility of inherent goodness) in all people." Which isn't to say that there aren't "bad" people in the world - he killed Huo Xijing for example, and doesn't express any regret about it. But that he believes in the ability of people to do good/be good, even if that doesn't bear out all of the time. It's a very optimistic sort of view on the potential of humanity.

Yan Wushi on the other hand, yes he has declared "you're too naive SQ, humans are evil by nature," etc but this happens by way of him making certain points to SQ, not as part of a philosophical discourse where we might see the full nuances of each's philosophy argued out, so I think to see it as a fixed "rule" he has for the world is shortsighted (and also ascribes a shortsightedness to him that I just don't think he has. He sees SQ as a curiosity sure but not like an aberration against a fixed worldview. He's amused when SQ chooses kindness, not perplexed).

So I think a more useful interpretation of YWS's worldview is more along the lines of, like, averages. In that instead of seeing YWS as "he believes all people are Evil by nature," it's more like, statistically speaking he believes that humans can/will be led astray by a variety of factors, and that even the most "good" person can have "evil" actions teased out of them if they are pushed enough - the exact experiment he is running with SQ. To me, this idea that like, in his experience humans are more statistically likely to act out of selfish/self-preserving/"evil" intentions than altruistic ones in the longterm, works a lot better for interpreting his character and making him a good foil for SQ. He's the pessimism on "human nature" to SQ's optimism - the "even if you have a close relationship, if you get in the way of self-preservation then people can be pushed to the point of valuing the self over you."

But yeah, the tl;dr of it all is, I don't think Yan Wushi and Shen Qiao are the "humans are inherently evil/good" characters, it's more, Shen Qiao is the "humans are capable of doing good/being kind and I choose to believe in that," and Yan Wushi is the "if you push someone enough they will abandon altruism, everyone has a bottom line including you" (though I think he underestimates how much hope SQ can find in the little kindnesses in the world lol, cuz like in Chap46 we see him close to some sort of abyss of despair but is QUICKLY brought back up by encountering Shiwu. But I think per the rule of statistical averages, SQ is very much a Kindness Georg so that's why I don't think he rocks YWS's worldview - he still has a place in the bell curve he's just way far out on the narrow end lmao).

But anyway, this complexity is what makes them (1) interesting characters, and (2) good foils for each other. Thanks for coming to my TED talk lmao

#qian qiu #thousand autumns #qian qiu meta #yan wushi #shen qiao

[enzo-zzz]

A vent on the fandom + cg

If you dont wanna hear any negativity, please just ignore this post. It includes dissatisfication on the yttd fandom and ongoing belief in it. I'm not going to use very kind words here, so just ignore this post. 3b spoilers included.

I like yttd so much, but the english fandom, i cannot interact because how toxic it is. Even the smallest different of which route you choose, will attract anyone to abuse, harrass, ridicule or humiliate you. And to be truth, there are many of them who are so judgemental, to the point that there is only one thing that are right and the other are wrong. Black and white mindset. The term "canon route" is what fans created itself. I guess there are many of them who are teens or kids, since most of kids who havent grown up yet tend to lean towards black and white mindset, even if they believe they are not. If you find people who keep arguing especially on social media, you can bet that its teens. Adult are too tired to involve in things like fighting with strangers. There is one time when the poll asked your age and the age range quite small to teens age. I guess thats why i think so.

OTHER THAN THAT, THERE'S ONE THING I'M ANNOYED WITH. ABOUT THE CG AND HOW THE FANDOM DECIDES THAT THE MORE CGS, THE MORE CANON IT IS. To be perfectly honest, i'm the one who came up with the analysis that on certain route 2-2 ending the cg is more. But people really use it the wrong way and now thought that anything that has more cg is the canon route. The word canon route is wrong in itself, who tf come up with the term canon route in yttd? Is the reason for creating two route is for one to be canon only, or for sparing different characters, or for having different storyline? (I personally think that on different route, the story will change and the ones who got to live at last is probably different ). Now i see those who misuse that information everywhere. "In sou route 2-2 ending evil joe AI dont even have new cg but in kanna route he has. See how biased the devs are? he should have drawn more if he really meant the route to be the canon one. Kanna route will get happy ending, sou route is bad ending." I think thats stupid. B*tch, he keep reusing his old art here and there. You can check for yourself. Joe and midori has same hand based on the cg? He's just reusing the hand art. The arm in 3b and 1-1 is the same arm he reuse. Sou and kanna 2-2 ending basically use the same sou drawing, he just changed it a bit. Sara in 2-2 kanna ending use the same cg as when keiji try to calm her in front of computer, he just changed the face. Midori and sara on the 3b game screen cg basically use the same cg in the 3b content, but changed a bit. So i can think why need to create new cg when joe is still malicious as the hallucination in 2-2 sou ending? If i want to create something i will also reuse this to save my time.

So if you wanna really use this cg argument, then maybe you can consider why alice memory game got so many more cg than reko's? and how ranmaru gone insane has so many new sprite and pose with the hair like that. And why when dummy is dead they got cg's. Especially the ranmaru dying one, he got moving cg's and how it was put more effort into that. Then that means dummy dying is actually the canon route since when they alive they got no addtional cg? This is my assumption, but i think the devs just do as many cg as it takes depends on how impactful the scene he's working on, not because its canon, thats really a lazy take if he is actually unwilling to do extra route but still forcing himself to do it anyway. Imagine if dummy is dying but no cg, instead a message " ranmaru/mai/anzu died ". Do you think that will really give impact to you? This game clearly hinting that joe is going to be the spotlight of the game, even in 3b. So when sou set the real joe ai in kanna route for sara, the script is written for the real joe to genuinely react to sara. of course thats going to be heartwrenching since joe himself is the very important part of sara's life. When the script is made that way, lacking of cgs will hamper down the storytelling nankidai genuinely want to deliver. All i can say is it come from the heart of the author himself. If it is just only text for something as tearful as that moment and no cgs, it wont really touch the feeling isnt it? It is the same with alice memory game that tells about how alice "kill" midori. I'm not sure how many it is but atleast there is 3 cgs with one of them has variant. The story of how alice kill midori is also important and should have impact, thus the extra CG's. I can say its about being passionate and indulged in the storytelling.

I dont even know if joe will ever heal sara in sou route, but based on how the story still keep joe relevant til the end, then there must be something that need to happen between them in the end right? Nankidai even made sure that sara see the dog keychain in 3a if player probably choose to not ask gin about the dog keychain he's hiding in ch 2. Its also for relating ranmaru and joe. Having closure or conclusion with joe in the middle of game is still valid, and having a closure with joe at the end of the game is still valid. Imo, having closure with joe at the end of the game after all of those suffering involving him makes the better climax or impact for sara chara development since the game build up to highlight joe and mr. Policeman, it can be even better if all of it are to be pull together in the ending.

Even if the devs has route he prefer, he's not abandoning any route he less prefer, only if its true that he ever have a route he prefer. Plus you dont know which route he's prefer if any. He's taking his work seriously, it just some "fans" looking down on him, even to the point calling him biased, he's punishing the one who take another route, treating like he only use his career for egostatiscal reason (it somehow clearly mirrors that you are the one who egostatiscal to the point of wanting to find any excuse to punish other, you just using the devs name to validate your mindset). If he's dislike people who chose that route that much, then why create that route? If he know its tiring to make alternate route, then why still make the choice to let 3 dummy alive route at the end? It will make more work. I can only assume its out of passion, or just that he deep down wants the character to be alive atleast in a route ( idk if this is correct, i just read google translated version of his public fanbox that he's actually very reluctant at first when the time comes and "crying" so hard when he had to kill joe in chapter 1. So the part where he wants to spare some character is only my assumption ). By this punishing logic, shouldnt he not make alice die when you push reko ai to spare gin, and only do it to those who dont push the ai to save gin by killing real reko? I am more sure that the variants is to tell a different story or who to spare, and specifically for who sara actually was.

Happy endings? I'm not sure. I've expected that once from story with a lot of deaths, wishing for atleast the protagonists alive. Anime or story with a lot of death is definitely my jam, but from what i see, most of them has bittersweet ending, it depends on how the author wants it to be. Some author dont mind killing them all till the end, and some author just easily kill them all because they plan to revive them later. And everyone sense is different. Some japanese people sense in storytelling is a bit different imo. As the one being the audience, happy endings is the most common wish the audience wants. But its all up to the sense of the author. This is why i'm annoyed with some kids from overseas who rarely watch or play many things that involves a lot of death from japan suddenly says that this "one happy ending, this one bad ending! Everyone will survive in this route, everyone dead in this route"

Just play any route you like, nothing wrong with that. Whats wrong is to start this war of ridiculing others or have that irritating attitude towards those who play their own first route and start bad mouthing or desperately throwing bad assumption that one route will end very bad just for the sake of feeling better for your choice and to scare others.You do know that when you read a book, you'll only know if the overall story is good or bad until you know the ending right? The ending will conclude everything that happened. What happening in the fandom is now like, you only read 3/4 of the book and already expecting that this one will have good ending and bad ending. What if its not about the binary, but for the difference in direction? Its not that bad if the story of the book is kinda predictable, but with how plot twists become the main part of yttd's charm, its getting more difficult to predict how it will end. There's a lot of story which was masterpiece in every part as seen by fans, until the ending hits. Its what the author wants, but its not what the fans wants.

If you pick fights with others, even passively, the consequence is all on you. Good luck taking care of your mess.

Thats why i'm reluctant to publish any theory because the fandom will always use it as an excuse to pick fights with other and say " i'm more right bcs i got this proof" . U see in my caption i dont want any of those harasser to even digest my theory. If you are one of them get out of my blog.

[pumpkinofthedale]

themxerte replied to your post “With the introduction of Moira, and the discussions and scandal a lot...”

Universes. And yeah those are maybe weak spots but I simply don't believe that a company that has the whole game dedicated to the grey moralities of how you see good and evil differently from a different point of view (World of Warcraft) would make such a damn boring, not complexed evil character.

Heya friend, I was wondering if you had actually taken the time to read my entire 1.5k word post detailing how I think Moira fits into the reaper story line.

However if you have read it and still feel that I feel that way about his characterization, allow me to elaborate and include and cite actual evidence. I love Gabriel Reyes and I firmly believe that he will be the epitome of grey morality within the story.

That being said there is nothing, nothing within the story saying that Reyes didnt get some of his powers before the fall of overwatch. In fact given the track it seemed the devs would go down earlier, I’d argue it was canon that he had at least some of them since SEP at the very least. I still think it’s canon that he had some of them before the explosion.

I also never said that he got his smokey wraith powers before the introduction of Moira. I said that I believe something was wrong DNA wise because he was an earlier test subject within the SEP program than Jack, and that his DNA, the fabric of his existence, was deteriorating causing a boatload of problems that no one was willing to risk getting caught up in major legal trouble to fix. I believe his body smoking is part of that. It’s probably something completely out of his control until Moira enters the picture.

 The way the devs worded their unveiling of Moira at blizzcon and her relationship to Gabriel Reyes, they implied that it’s plausible that Reyes didn’t necessarily get his powers from Moira, but instead Moira got her powers from studying Reyes’ DNA and it’s degeneration. A theory heavily backed up by in-game lore:

“Repairing Degenerative Genetic Structures” with a large post-it note that says “Draft”

Not to mention the blizzcon panel

Geoff Goodman: “It [Her Fade ability] has some similarities to Reaper’s wraith form…uh which is…it’s funny how that works out.” Michael Chu: “You know, we obviously - there’s a…there’s a close relationship between Moira and Reyes-slash-Reaper, and I think one of the fun things we were able to do is to sort of hint at some of those things in her, uh, abilities.” Geoff Goodman: “She’s helping Reaper out and is like, ‘You know, I think I could make this better, I have an idea.’”

Blizzcon 2017

On to my other points:

“We sort of saw Overwatch really open up to the world, and listening to players and the stories they were telling and what they imagined the Omnic crisis to be really made us second guess what we were doing in First Strike,” said Kaplan. “We thought, ‘Hey, if we go down this path, it really closes all these doors.’”

Fan theories about the Overwatch cast’s pasts abound, and players produce fiction, art and other original content in droves. Although animated shorts and digital comics have had success in filling out the game’s universe — particularly the most recent comics, “Uprising” and “Reflections” — the Overwatch team found that a 100-page graphic novel no longer made sense as supplemental reading material, six months into the game’s life.

“Part of the magic is that everything is not tied off and explained to players,” Kaplan said of keeping Overwatch’s canon less defined. “There’s a lot going on in Overwatch right now where I think that the story in players’ heads is often even cooler than what we can deliver to them.”

Jeff Kaplan May 2017 during a polygon interview

One very important thing to remember is that early previews of that 100 page graphic novel showed Gabriel Reyes as an ominous figure with heavily shadowed lighting. I believe that fan input especially on how Reyes is characterized, and the theories involving him had a lot to do with the cancellation.

 Yes, Gabriel Reyes manipulated Overwatch into helping innocent lives in Kings Row during the uprising comic. Even as Reaper he’s shown to kill very very few people. Like 2 people on screen max, and neither of those people were innocent. They worked for Vialli one of the top talon “bosses”. 

I’m not saying that Reyes is going to just let innocent people get caught in the crossfires of his plans. Kings Row can’t boil over into a full out omnic uprising because that will absolutely be a catastrophe that could trigger another full-out omnic crisis. He’s shown to be more pro-active in making sure people are safe than Jack is.

And Talon doesnt know about his involvement with the capture of doomfist or Overwatch’s intervention. This is extremely important information to remember. Gabriel Reyes is a man who works in the shadows, and I firmly believe that he has no firm allegiance to anyone, but rather to the ideal of making sure that nothing like the Omnic crisis ever happens again while he still lives/functions.

Every single one of his talon missions that would have brought the world closer to an omnic crisis (Katya’s assassination, retrieving information about the whereabouts of former overwatch agents, stealing doomfist’s gauntlet, killing Jack or Ana) has completely and utterly failed. The man is a tactical genius and so far every mission save picking up doomfist and infiltrating talon and killing vialli’s men, has failed. Against people he’s worked along side before. 

There is absolutely no way he doesn’t know what they’re capable of. The dude outsmarted god ai programs, you really think he wouldn’t have been able to calculate his former friends’ actions and adjust his missions accordingly? Hell, he even knows it was sombra that fucked up the assassination, and he did nothing about it.

Gabriel Reyes is an incredibly intelligent and calculating man. He was probably the president of the chess club in high school, and as every chess player knows, you have to be at least 2-3 steps ahead of your opponent. On any normal type higher level you should know the next ten moves and each possible outcome. Someone on Reyes’ level has hundreds of different moves calculated at any given time.

So now imagine for a moment, that Gabriel Reyes is not some soft goober of a man some people make him but instead a calculating morally grey person who understands exactly what is at stake if talon wins. He’s lived through one crisis, but the world is only just beginning to truly bounce back. It was essentially Armageddon. It cannot happen again.

Talon has infiltrated overwatch.

Talon has infiltrated blackwatch.

Talon has has most likely infiltrated the UN.

Conventional methods of tracking and dealing with spies hasn’t been working. The head of the Overwatch anti-talon task force is dead and his wife is missing. He is doing what he can to help, ie sending mccree to kings row to deal with the uprising situation as well as manipulating overwatch to help. Sending Genji to help apprehend doomfist. Things that talon doesn’t know about because it isn’t strictly blackwatch shit going on. It’s a man on vacation, a commander checking in with his friends and updating them on a situation. It isn’t direct involvement at kings row. It’s manipulation.

But overwatch is strangled in even more red tape and controversies and it’s failing. It cannot properly do its job anymore and Gabriel Reyes is running out of options. Mccree and genji have left; who can he trust but himself.

I believe he did plant the bomb to blow up the zurich base. But I also happened to notice that only Jack was caught in the blast besides him. None of the main overwatch agents were caught in the explosion. He has cool smokey wraith form so he can probably survive, that’s probably one of the ways he was able to survive, though there were obviously some serious complications. I’m sure other overwatch members died in the blast, but he seems to have waited until the base was relatively empty. 

Talon can trust him now. Something went wrong of course he has a vendetta. 

Except, he is ineffectual. His direct actions with winston to secure the names and locations of former overwatch agents in order to fulfill that vendetta prompts winston to recall the old agents. His actions with Hakim and talon reunite Jack and Ana when he has a chance to kill both of them. Overwatch is being reformed except this time, it’s not under the UN’s control. 

Meanwhile reaper, seeming terrorist with a vendetta against overwatch who “inadvertently” cause overwatch to reform a few years after the fall as an independent organization away from the control of the UN and likely away from the clutches of talon’s shadow puppets there.

But he also has their trust which means that innocent people have also likely died by his hand in his quest to infiltrate and take out talon. I also have no doubt in my mind that he probably would kill Jack or Ana or any of his friends if they do actually interfere with his plans just as i do believe that if he felt that it was necessary, he would let innocents die.

“What’s important to us is that their motivations are not purely rooted in being evil, despite how they might seem on the surface.  As we reveal more about these characters, we want people to be able to empathize and understand their beliefs.  Because sometimes what makes a villain a villain is the extent to which they’re willing to go to reach their goals.  And one thing that we find most important when we’re talking about our villain characters is that there is nothing to say that a villain cannot be as charismatic or more charismatic or as likeable as a hero character - because, like the old saying goes, ‘every villain is the hero of their own story.’”

Michael Chu early March 2017

Reyes has a lot of potential to be an almost antihero. Someone who does some shady under the table shit, but only because he thinks it will help the world. I think Blizzard has realized this and why it hasn’t cemented a lot of things in canon. They want to wait and see what it is that fans could seriously enjoy. They love fan feedback. That’s why they created Moira! That’s why they cancelled the 100 page graphic novel about the omnic crisis! Because they want to be able to see their story evolve just as much as the fans do.

anyways. I’m not putting this one under a cut so people don’t have to take the time to click the button to see ALL of what i have to say about the subject (even though I have tons more to say, but I’ve spent so much time on this that I kind of want to be done rn)

#themxerte #gabriel reyes #moira overwatch #overwatch #fan theory #w34ry words #i hope ive explained my thoughts even more #because i love gabriel reyes and would die for him