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adhdnojutsu · 5 months

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Identity wars & the Uchiha

I always wondered why Itachi haters hate him because he committed mass murder, but excuse Sasuke, Obito, and Madara, for doing/attempting the same. I finally managed to put my finger on why exactly this doesn't sit right with me, other than just being plain silly or using trauma or marginalisation as an excuse for just about anything. Look, I'm queer, doesn't mean I get to walk into a roomful of c*s folks and empty my clip.

Itachi weighs human life in absolute numbers. Anti-Itachi, pro-Uchiha fans weigh human life in identities.

To them, each marginalized life is worth a whole busload of non-marginalized lives. They forget that social justice is NOT revenge, ie marginalized people taking the whole cake and leaving the non-marginalized to starve, but to redistribute the cake so NO ONE goes hungry.

To them, anyone in Konoha other than the Uchiha are non-marginalized aka "the oppressor", so their lives carry not even half the weight of an Uchiha's.

Because clearly, when they defend Sasuke's planned mass murder, it's not just "Danzo and the elders", no, these people think "guilt by association" is the new social justice, so everyone "laughing" in Konoha, to use Sasuke's words from his unhinged rant, is guilty and deserving of retaliation, too. There are no "victims" or "innocents" in Konoha unless they have a ping pong bat on their shirts, it seems. Not even babies or elderly. They're all guilty of something only 3 living people are even aware of.

They don't realize they're justifying school shooters. Because yes, the boy was victimized by a handful of bullies and had every right to go after them, but what, pray tell, justifies shooting up the whole school? That's what Sasuke, Obito, and Madara are. Glorified mass shooters. They have righteous beef with an entity or handful of people, and they're happy to take everyone else down with them for sharing the enemy's zip code.

When lumping all Konoha residents/people everywhere in with "the oppressor", these people don't take into account:

-genuine ignorance of the administration's rotten tactics

-if aware, a lack of power to change anything

-repercussions of treason/desertion -rational thought, ie. not criminalizing someone for living in the only place they've ever known

-other forms of marginalisation existing within Konoha, as well as civilians and dissenters -cultural/propaganda impact, ie. drinking the kool

-aid not typically being an act of malice and thus not warranting a death sentence

-limited responsibility for elected leaders: you may not have voted for this leader, or your elected leader may not keep his promises

-various personal and societal struggles not leaving capacity to march for the marginalised; remember Konoha doesn't even pay decorated ninjas enough to have their sick children treated: Mukai Kohinata had to spy for an enemy village to pay his son's hospital bills, and Konoha sent Itachi to kill him for it

-Kage are not democratically elected, making people living under them even LESS responsible for their administration. The Kage administration is a dictatorship, making everyone living under a Kage oppressed and victims. This also adds not-so-voluntary pressure to the "voluntary" decision to serve as a ninja. Imagine saying no to a dictator with a huge standing army of brainwashed child soldiers.

-the public reaction to the genocide. If they hated Itachi that much for it, surely, they could have made good allies to the Uchiha if the latter had EVER bothered to share their concerns rather than simmer in silence!!

All they see is "Uchihas oppressed, so everyone else bad". So they don't mind that Sasuke or Madara or Obito kill a bunch of innocent and marginalized people along with "the oppressor". Collective punishment, guilt by association, all those things I thought we all agreed are ALWAYS bad, are suddenly excusable if committed in the name of justice (revenge) rather than power.

Itachi "looks bad" because he only killed oppressed people, under orders from the oppressor. Itachi haters don't even take into account that he did so in tears and hating his commander and only obeying because of the many INNOCENT lives he thought were at stake - many more than those 60 or so Uchihas. He didn't kill the clan "for the oppressor" (a government), he, from his POV, killed the clan for the people who didn't ask to live under this, or any government - after all, there is no opting out of "enabling injustice through citizenship" no matter where you go, so why fault anyone for existing where they do?

Is all of Konoha really "the oppressor" because of those 4 old people? Where could Konoha residents go in protest where they would not collaborate with some form of oppression, where is that utopia of innocence and justice? Fugaku sure wasn't gonna build it, since he would have to establish a new iron fist rule to keep people in line after *checks notes* kidnapping a leader who only ever showed them a loving face.

"Guilt by association" is not how to advocate for social justice. Not in the Narutoverse, not IRL. You just turn the aggressor-victim dynamic around, not eradicating oppression.

#itachi #naruto #itachi uchiha #itachi naruto #uchiha itachi #uchiha clan #uchiha massacre #uchiha #obito #madara #anti itachi #pro uchiha clan #anti konoha

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lira456 · 7 months

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sasuke shinden star pupil

what jun easaka thinking without no indication of clan other members especially children and babies but she did mention in naruto retsuden that sasuke took sakura and sarada to uchiha clan graveyard, but here how vaguely she tried to put it, in canon sasuke did admit he can forgive itachi not konoha especially he held hokage responsible for the damage to his clan, then how can easaka just refuted any indication of other uchiha clan members lives being sacrificed and how they were treated, this sasuke is oof, sasuke forgotten about his clan's sacrifice? and easily agree what his brother did was right? but sasuke was talking about in end punishing culprits and judged and how he is only member of the clan, now that sacrifice is okay as long it's for village sake, sasuke would never sacrificed children for village, this is not canon sasuke, what the hack easka itachi did only sacrificed himself but many children as young as 3 to 4 who has no knowledge of coup( itachi shinden),

Isn't it morally questionable to portray a mass murderer in positive light without not mention of how his clan was butchered narratively? Also why shouldn't new generation feel remorse about dirty past of the village and know the whole truth, that's how naruto came to understand sasuke after knowing the dirty past of the village then why should not next generation and otherwise they would glorify a imperial japan like figures hiruzen and tobirama and hashirama, would follow another cycle of hatred in the name of the village

new generation getting taught only the bright not the dark side, that's why orchimaru can exploit mitsuki like children bc he is great importance to konoha similar to usa used imperal japan genocidal doctor and nazi's ngel of death for their own benefit, then there konohamaru manipulated team 7 to do hard b rank which would death by telling gaara's b rank mission but not telling the whole truth how gaara was forced by his father and village authority to do using a monster since his birth so much teaching for younger generation!

so sasuke agreed that war that madara obito created was not in vain lol then madara and obito did not do any wrong by sacrificing so many shinobi life!!!!! they are hero, that's make shinobi villages hypocrites but yet there is 5th shinobi war at the door in shikimaru shinden novel!!!! yea itachi did that by committing genocide he did not really passed anything what he passed was a fascist belief of WOF

Canon Sasuke would never something like he felt satisfaction that that everything his brother kept safe without indicating his clan or his parents sacrifice and how Konoha wronged them plus in shinden sunrise novel sasuke admitted that uchiha was discriminated:

and he said the hopeful heart like naruto only connected him to konoha, ssuke care about peace of the shinobi world not konoha not about passing this to next generation, sasuke never agreed with konoha's method regarding itachi then how can he bluntly prasing without mentioning uchiha's injustice and konoha's dark side, how awful it was and how they conned itachi to do dirty bid, esaka did not canon manga other novels with overlooking many issues conneted to itachi and sasuke which shaped who sasuke is today, even boruto manga has dignity to tell future should be better meaning not how past was but the way easka openly showing itachi's method was great without uchiha clan's mention or konoha's dark past seems she ignored many parts of the history even shikimaru shinden remembered dirty past of the village how itachi used as sacrifice for vilage and wrong, here esaka very proud of it? without giving many viewpoints from sasuke's side, she is indirectly supporting genocide narratively! so apparently genocide and discrimination is good for the sake of the village and authority LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BONUS: SASUKE SHINDEN SUNRISE:

Here is difference bc before village creation ninja were hired to do various kinds of works bc that's how they survived bc it's their job and trained like it as life mission even die for it uchiha senju killed each other children but the uchiha persecution was horrible bc they were cofounder clan of the village, they also lost their lives for the village in the wars and calling it home and they have every right to be free like other clan but they did not treated equally and betrayed again and again by the 2nd hokage, hiruzen, hashirama, danzo and even by their own kin itachi and shisui when they were innocent, what uchiha did to chinoike was normal bc it was warring state period where killing children was normal which why village was created so that children don't need to die yet tsunade's brother nawaki and uchiha children had to die, after village creation all clans formed their own village there every clan should be safe and treated equally, really author sucks by having analogy like that with ignoring how konoha authority get unpunished for the persecution and genocide of the Uchiha clan, author tried to make sasuke feels guilty for what uchiha did to chinoike which was mission as it happened before village creation but konoha was uchiha's home so persecution to their own people is unjustified that's why naruto never reveals the whole truth, analogy here should be:

Uchiha harmed chinoike as a ninja mission how Konoha harmed amegakure for ninja missions being provided by land of fire daimyo but konoha persecuted and harmed uchiha were evil and unjustified as uchiha were comrades and loyal clan who fought for konoha in great shinobi wars and protected the village even with being persecuted

#anti naruto ending #anti naruto uzumaki #anti naruto #anti hashirama #anti hiruzen #anti konoha #anti shinobi system #pro sasuke uchiha #pro uchiha #pro uchiha clan #pro sasuke #anti tobirama

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golden-bean-soup · 2 years

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Hot take but the Uchiha shouldn't be blamed even partly for the massacre and it is solely konoha's fault. This shouldn't be an unpopular opinion, you don't excuse genocide by blaming the victims.

#pro uchiha clan #anti konoha

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mdr-reikas · 2 years

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I really don't like the way that a lot of obkk fanfic are like really anti Uchiha. They paint Obito to be this shining star in a black sky, the only good or redeemable uchiha. Or even worse, pro konoha. I don't like the idea of Obito just falling in love with Kakashi and then abandoning every single one of his believes, even the ones that were valid.

#pro uchiha #pro uchiha clan #pro sasuke #anti konoha #obkk #kkob #obikaka #kakaobi #obito uchiha #my posts

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loveforsasuke · 1 year

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why sakura in "pro uchiha" tag? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

#anti sakura uchiha #anti sakura fandom #pro uchiha #pro uchiha clan

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leportraitducadavre · 7 months

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My interpretation of Itachi's character is fairly contrasting with yours. I pose my arguments against your analysis. I hope I would get a lead unto having an unbiased opinion.

Itachi's position in here between was a rock and a hard place. Having witnessed horrors of wars he chose to the stop war. It wasn't the best decision but even still he accomplished many things.

A new Forth Great Ninja war was prevented. Uchihas plan wasn't to reform the government it was to take control of them. Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands. While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village. This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

Madara, with the pact, was foiled for more than seven years long enough for the strong Shinobis like Naruto and Sasuke to grow up and defeat him.

Sasuke's life was saved. Itachi would go at all lengths to protect his brother. Afterall, its only obvious he would be over-protective of Sasuke since both loved each other a lot(as siblings).

The Uchiha's reputation were saved. Imagine what would have happened to the Uchihas after the war. The people were already suspicious of the Uchihas and now we will have never ending persecution and would be branded as traitors, doesn't matter if the coup won or lost. The coup wasn't about reforming anyway.

People in the village got to be safe too.

And despite all these he still regretted a lot enough that he wanted the person he adored the most to kill him. Also, no one here is trying to justify his action. A justification and a reason has a clear distinction. Just because there was a reason it doesn't make the acts were justified. He himself acknowledged that. The writer didn't try to justify nor did Itachi himself. People like, Hashirama and Naruto, appreciated the role he played and praised him as a Shinobi.(being seen as a villan while protecting the people isn't easy, btw). They weren't justifying or glorifying his actions in any instance.

He wasn't an absolute nationalist. He he was an idealist. His motivations most cases(especially while making big decisions)were to 'not beget war' and 'maintain peace'. Doesn't matter if Uchihas managed to control the village it still starts war, death, destruction and countless losses which is exactly what Itachi hated from when he was 4. He also wanted to reform the village by becoming a Hokage. He wanted to wiped out the entire ninja system since ninjas were the ones who were used as a weapon for the Diamoyo start constant wars. The Leaf was sort of obnoxious in the time of Tobirama and Hiruzen's regime. But even still, the Hokages were good and passionate and also the people were innocent.

How do you even know it was prevented? Shisui stating that hidden villages will take advantage of Konoha’s civil war to invade was just a fear that was actually constantly proven wrong throughout the series; when Suna invaded and Konoha was destroyed (forcing it to send their most powerful shinobi out of the village to collect money) no other village took advantage of the situation, not even Kumo or Iwa, two of the big five that were not struggling politically or militarily as Suna, Kiri and Konoha were. Kumogakure even tried to kidnap Hinata while in the middle of signing a peace treaty, yet they did nothing against the Hyüga clan nor the village during one of their most vulnerable state.

Furthermore, you mean to tell me that a civil war (I am using that notion generously because Konoha is a military state with a non-civilian population, specifically trained for combat) destabilizes the military and economic power of a city, yet the complete disappearance overnight of one of the village's founding and most powerful clans does nothing to its structure? Other villages wouldn’t see the absence of Sharingan-wielders as an enticing opportunity to strike? Do you mean to tell me that a village was left without police to control it overnight (and their job is considered super important by detractors), yet the city did not succumb to chaos?

Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands.

What were their demands? Enlighten me.

While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village.

Where do you get this information from? There’s nothing of the sort stated in the manga.

This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

Obito’s plan needed the annihilation of the Sharingan-wielders as he didn’t want anyone capable of obtaining the Mangekyou to jeopardize his plan to control the ten-tails, Itachi killing the Uchiha literally allowed Obito to start the war!!

Madara, with the pact, was foiled for more than seven years long enough for the strong Shinobis like Naruto and Sasuke to grow up and defeat him.

… what? This doesn’t make any sense and has nothing to do with Itachi… you mean to tell me that Itachi killing his clan made Sasuke as powerful as he is? Because Sasuke has always been powerful and has always been Indra’s transmigrant, and as I’ve said, Obito wouldn’t have been able to initiate the war (or at least would’ve been incredibly difficult for him) with the Uchiha clan still alive!

Sasuke's life was saved. Itachi would go at all lengths to protect his brother. Afterall, its only obvious he would be over-protective of Sasuke since both loved each other a lot(as siblings).

An eight-year-old was tortured mentally by his brother through Tsukuyomi by watching his clan and parents get killed over and over again, was left to live alone in a compound destroyed by his brother’s actions, having to clean his parents’ own blood and fend for himself –but at least he’s alive… the circumstances and solitude in which he grew is abysmal, traumatic, negligent and inhumane, but we don’t care as much about children’s safety as we do children being just alive.

There were other children in that compound, children that knew nothing of and participated not in the coup to which Itachi didn’t extend the same kindness he did his brother.

What “reputation”? The Uchiha were always constructed under a negative light within Tobirama’s system, you lot keep saying they were saved from being seen as detractors when there’s not a single panel that states they were planning to change the system as a whole (rather take down the current government, which is not the same).

Furthermore, to think that they cared about the rest of the population's mindset regarding them is so incredibly simplistic I have to laugh at it –they’re the strongest clan in the village, without Uchiha, there’d have been no village in the first place, and they were already aware of the unfavorable perspective in which they were regarded by others, nothing in itself would’ve changed.

The Uchiha being seen as loyal to the village helped no one but the current system as it is, as they’re seen as a government without opposition, it wasn’t about maintaining the Uchiha’s honor, but keeping the fragile credit of the structure and those in power -if Uchiha died in their own terms, then other clans will know about the clan’s discomfort with the current mindset, and those that feel uncomfortable with it might find a group that validates such sentiments:

Kakashi admits to being uncomfortable with the way he's viewed by the system, he even uses plural when referring to ninja ("we ninja") -meaning there's a communal uneasiness with the whole situation.

The fact that the government silenced detractors (Uchiha) by killing them will only deepen further the general shinobi population's discomfort, which is why is imperative to silence the truth.

[On another note, why do you keep using "honor" as an excuse to execute an entire compound of people? The entire clan was decimated and the whole "honor" of the family rested as another responsibility Sasuke had to endure all by himself thanks to "Itachi's love" -they were left with no honor as Sasuke was forced to restore it! Furthermore, they're all dead! What is "honor" gonna do for them? For the massacred innocents at least? They did nothing wrong and were killed regardless, their honorable nature wasn't even being questioned!]

People in the village got to be safe too.

Safe of what? When was it stated they were going to fight against those who weren’t in power? The problem is they rebelling against those they deem their oppressors but not the government refusing to renounce their power in order to keep the “population they hold so dear” safe? They are both willing to kill innocents (so I guess some people in the village weren’t safe, but in your book, they don’t matter as much), and use the rest of the military population to strike against Uchiha (which is also, never actually stated!). The idea of a “within war” was never confirmed as the Uchiha had no chance to strike, no one is to say they weren’t trying to take power through force yet quietly, no one is to know what was their actual plan as that was never brought to light!

The Uchiha are wrong for wanting to take the power but the government isn't wrong for wanting to keep it, the Uchiha are wrong for their methods to seek authority but not the government for defending the status quo. Uchiha having power would mean annihilation, somehow, despite them being against just their oppressors, not Konoha as a whole; while the government seeks to protect the village despite massacring an entire and most important portion of their militia and one of the founders' clans.

And despite all these he still regretted a lot enough that he wanted the person he adored the most to kill him.

He regretted nothing, he wanted Sasuke to kill him in order to both give him an objective and to distract him from finding out Konoha’s involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, shouldering the entire responsibility of their demisse.

Also, no one here is trying to justify his action.

But you are, you wrote point after point why he had to kill his clan.

A justification and a reason has a clear distinction.

What distinction? You need to expand on the notions you think are relevant to you own argument.

Just because there was a reason it doesn't make the acts were justified. He himself acknowledged that. The writer didn't try to justify nor did Itachi himself. People like, Hashirama and Naruto, appreciated the role he played and praised him as a Shinobi.(being seen as a villan while protecting the people isn't easy, btw). They weren't justifying or glorifying his actions in any instance.

What are you even writing? I’m being honest with that question, claiming to have a reason to kill his clan is used as a justification for his actions! I can’t believe I have to explain that to you. He never said he had no justification (their coup was treated as such over and over, everyone took advantage of them wanting to coup in order to both order the massacre and carry it out!!).

How on earth can you write “People like Hashirama and Naruto appreciated the role he played and praised him as a shinobi but they never justified him”, so are they praising him or not? Them positively reinforcing Itachi and praising him for “his sacrifice” (you see, not only he is perceived as a villain, he is a villain, he killed an entire kin -again, innocents included, in order to maintain specific people in power) is justifying his actions under the notion of the “greater good for the village”.

He wasn't an absolute nationalist.

He did everything for Konoha! He even claimed himself to be “Itachi of the Leaf!” What are you even talking about?

He he was an idealist. His motivations most cases(especially while making big decisions)were to 'not beget war' and 'maintain peace'.

Yet his actions concluded in Obito being able to control the Ten Tails with almost no real opposition as the only other Sharingan-wielder was Sasuke.

Doesn't matter if Uchihas managed to control the village it still starts war, death, destruction and countless losses which is exactly what Itachi hated from when he was 4.

How do you know? Do you have an entirely new manga written by Kishimoto about what would’ve happened had the Uchiha taken over the village? Itachi hated Uchiha since he was four because they brought “war, death and destruction” but not Konoha that actually provoked such wars, deaths, and destruction, what an intelligent boy!

You have to be a troll because, man, “unbiased opinion” my ass. Also, did you just come to my blog with arguments coming from Itachi Shinden? The story not written by Kishimoto?

He also wanted to reform the village by becoming a Hokage. He wanted to wiped out the entire ninja system since ninjas were the ones who were used as a weapon for the Diamoyo start constant wars.

Funny, under Hiruzen’s regime he would’ve never become Hokage, furthermore, when did he even hinted to want to become Hokage?? Never in the entire manga. Also, the Daimyo did little to nothing when it came to wars, those were all the Kage’s responsibilities! Dear Lord, did you at least read Team 10’s Arc? Asuma’s background literally explains how the Shugonin Jūnishi fought each other because six of them wanted the entire military power of the Land of Fire to be managed by the Daimyo alone while the rest, Asuma included, defended the Hokage’s existence.

The Leaf was sort of obnoxious in the time of Tobirama and Hiruzen's regime. But even still, the Hokages were good and passionate and also the people were innocent.

Which people were innocent? The children and non-Sharingan wielders that knew nothing of the coup and were massacred regardless? How can you write “the Hokages were good” while they literally ordered the mass killing of people they swore to protect? How can you use “obnoxious” and “good” to describe the same two people?!

Gosh, the fact that you lot (Itachi stans) don’t comprehend that his involvement in the massacre of his own people alongside the protagonist’s endorsement of state-sanctioned genocide, makes the annihilation of an entire portion of a village a plausible option to handle internal disagreements is disastrous.

Committing genocide against the village’s own people sets a dangerous precedent where future governments can see and use such slaughter as a conceivable, even necessary, tool at their disposal whenever they feel threatened, making any clan vulnerable to the decisions of its government and guaranteeing the silence of possible detractors or even the censorship of constructive criticism of the political, military, economic and cultural system.

Jesus.

#anti itachi #anti itachi uchiha #anti tobirama #anti hiruzen #anti hiruzen sarutobi #anti tobirama senju #anti konoha #anti shinobi system #anti naruto #anti naruto uzumaki #anti kakashi hatake #anti hashirama #anti hashirama senju #anti tsunade #anti tsunade senju #pro uchiha #pro sasuke uchiha #pro uchiha clan

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