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old-childhood-drama · 3 years

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Taylor Swift and Joe Jonas Masterpost (Toe/Jaylor)

Before dating (May 2008)

We start with the Taylor lookalike

In May 2008 the Jonas Brothers are filming their music video for Burnin’ Up [x]. Joe’s love interest in it is played by a blonde girl who looks quite a bit (and she’s also styled) like Taylor Swift, for reference, this is the music video that has Selena Gomez as Nick Jonas’ love interest.

As far as we know they hadn’t even met so we don’t know exactly what this was supposed to mean, maybe Joe had a crush on Taylor or maybe it’s a coincidence.

We do know that Nick and Selena were dating when this was filmed and that by the time the MV was released (July 4th, 2008) Joe and Taylor were officially dating.

Toe is alive! (July 2008 – September 2008)

On Tour

Fans claim to have seen Taylor around the tour in early July, which matches with Taylor’s lyrics in "Last Kiss".

Last Kiss. Taylor Swift.

I do recall now the smell of the rain

Fresh on the pavement, I ran off the plane

That July 9th, the beat of your heart

It jumps through your shirt

On July 14th, Taylor and The Jonas Brothers perform “Should’ve Said No”[x] from her debut album, and this performance now forever exists in their 3D movie (a classic), a cute fact is that some fans have said that Taylor tripped when she first came out, so they had to repeat it for the movie.

On July 20th Joe flies to Wyoming to watch Taylor opening up for Rascal Flatts, and they flew back and she was spotted at the Omaha show.

She’s seen in a couple shows more and she joins the stage again for their Madison Square Garden shows in August [x]. They sing “Even now just looking at you feels wrong”.

They’re together but they’re not together.

For more context, we must remember that Taylor was a very new artist from a small label and The Jonas were pretty much at their peak and Disney’s biggest act, and they were managed like crazy and could never even think about being seen with someone in a romantic way. Any rumors were denied so fast, and Disney did the absolute most to keep it secret. So according to everyone they were just good friends, at the time both Taylor and Selena were annoyed by all the secrecy.

Now back to the timeline:

Taylor is backstage of the tour A LOT for the next couple of weeks right next to the other not-girlfriends Selena and Danielle.

She films a cameo for the “Love Is on Its Way” [x] video for the concert in New York. She was said to be only interested in hanging out with Joe and they were seen hugging *gasp* I know it doesn’t seem like much now but back then this was the hottest gossip and again the Jonas were not supposed to breathe near any human of the opposite gender.

Taylor and the Jonas were staying at the same hotel a bunch of rumors ensued, but I will not talk about the whole Olympics and Toe locking themselves in a room at midnight thing. If it’s real, we really needed to touch some grass and stop staying outside of people's rooms all night.

On August 17th Joe goes to Ryan Seacrest's show and denied that Taylor is his girlfriend in the best way a corporation like Disney can train you to deny something that’s true. Saying Taylor is “a great girl and I think anybody would be lucky to date her. I think anybody would love to go on a date with her.”

And Taylor tells People Magazine “He’s an amazing guy and anybody would be lucky to be dating him” Cinematic parallels.

Taylor is spotted in the back (in a mirror) of one of the Jonas youtube videos [x]. Basically, we all knew they were together.

The Central Park date (August 28th)

Now if you were a fan of either the Jonas Brothers, Selena, or Taylor you know this next part and it the iconic triple date of Central Park.

Again, this is kind of famous at this point and Selena has been quoted saying how awful it was because the boys were not allowed to be seen with them so they all went to Central Park (Selena’s first time in Central Park) and Taylor and Selena walked about 20 feet of distance from the guys so nobody would think they were together but we all already knew because it wasn’t like they were that good at hiding it and there are pictures of them together that night (the clownery of it all).

These backstage tour adventures are the reason Taylor and Selena are friends today and in Selena’s own words the best thing to come out of those relationships.

VMAs (September 2008)

With how many pictures of them together that night [x] [x] [x] exist you would think they had gone together as a couple but no just two besties! The 2008 VMAs are so the show where Russell Brand mocks the Jonas Brothers and their purity rings and Taylor publicly defends them.

Toe seems happy for the rest of September but as we know now the end is near.

The Break-Up (October 2008)

Social Media was different back then and Taylor did what every teen girl with a broken heart did in 2008 and she went to myspace with an edited post to make a statement about the Toe current situation.

Post-Breakup

The 27 seconds Joe Jonas will regret for the rest of his life.

Taylor went on Ellen and I don’t even think I need to say much this interview is THAT iconic she sat on that couch and told the world exactly how Joe had broken her heart in the following two quotes:

“There’s one that’s about that guy, but…that guy’s not in my life anymore unfortunately. That guy…that’s an ouch.”

“I’m not even gonna be able to remember the boy who broke up with me over the phone in 25 seconds when I was 18…it was like 27 seconds, that’s got to be a record.” [x]

She also went on Ryan Seacrest’s and when asked about the perfect guy she saw an opportunity and took it, saying “I used to always say sense of humor, but I think that it’s important to have the same kind of sense of humor. I have a really dry, sarcastic sense of humor and if somebody doesn’t think that my sense of humor is funny, then that’s not something that is good. Um, so sometimes you know, that can be a wrong match. If they’re not allowed to go in public with me, that’s sort of an issue too.” [x]

Bonus the amazing youtube video Taylor posted with Joe’s Camp Rock doll and how he comes with his own phone to break up with other dolls [x]. Taylor eventually went full out and cited Camilla Belle (then girlfriend of Joe) as the reason for the breakup. And you know someone at Disney’s PR office wanted to die when this was going down.

So finally, Joe was forced to acknowledge the whole situation with a Myspace post:

"I never cheated on a girlfriend. It might make someone feel better to assume or imply I have been unfaithful, but it is simply not true. Maybe there were reasons for a breakup. Maybe the heart moved on. Perhaps feelings changed. I am truly saddened that anything would potentially cause you to think less of me. For those who have expressed concern over the "27 second” phone call. I called to discuss feelings with the other person. Those feelings were obviously not well received. I did not end the conversation. Someone else did. Phone calls can only last as long as the person on the other end of the line is willing to talk. “

Forever & Always

Now this song is known as THE Toe song and it was born out of the end of the relationship when she felt Joe was getting distant, but she couldn’t do anything to help it, it was made really late into the production of Fearless so she had to rush to finish it in time (so no other breakup songs are about Joe in the original album).

Forever & Always Was I out of line? Did I say something way too honest, made you run and hide Like a scared little boy I looked into your eyes Thought I knew you for a minute, now I’m not so sure

In the 2009 Grammy's Taylor and Miley (insert The Ex-Girlfriends Club Theory here) performed Fifteen (obviously not about Joe) and the Jonas were in the audience. I believe this is probably around the time Taylor writes Mr. Perfectly Fine and You All Over Me, which we know get to have thanks to Fearless (Taylor’s Version) 13 years later.

You All Over Me

The best and worst day of June

Was the one that I met you

With your hands in your pockets

And your 'don't you wish you had me' grin

But I did, so I smiled, and I melted like a child

Now every breath of air I breathe reminds me of then

Mr. Perfectly Fine

'Cause I hear he's got his arm 'round a brand-new girl

I've been pickin' up my heart, he's been pickin' up her

And I never got past what you put me through

But it's wonderful to see that it never phased you

In November of 2009, she also goes to SNL and mocks Joe in her monologue. "You might think I'd bring up Joe That guy who broke up with me on the phone But I'm not gonna mention him *rolls eyes* In my monologue [Spoken:]Hey Joe, I'm doing real well, tonight I'm hosting SNL [Sings:]But I'm not gonna brag about that In my monologue [x]"

To make things even more dramatic and very awkward The Jonas Brothers, Demi Lovato, and Taylor Swift spent NYE together watching the ball drop on TV and this was probably not how they wanted to start their years. [x] [x] [x] and a video [x]

Now let’s discussed some of the songs that came out at the time. The Jonas response to Forever & Always was Much Better. Nick described it as a song that was very personal to Joe and Joe went on to say that it was based on his very interesting year. They also at some point wanted to pretend the song was about their love for their fans but come on. Joe also changed the lyrics from ‘superstar’ to ‘country star’ and later changed it to ‘movie stars’ when he broke up with Camilla who is the ‘Much Better’ girl from the song.

Much Better - Jonas Brothers

I get a rep for breakin’ hearts

Now I’m done with superstars

And all the tears on her guitar

I’m not bitter

But now I see

Everything I’d ever need

Is the girl in front of me

She’s much better

Taylor’s iconic response in Better Than Revenge seems to be more of an attack on Camilla. She’s spoken about her regret for this song since then and hasn’t played it in years and Camilla seems to be ok we never forgiving her for it [x] [x]. Regardless this song remains a staple of the genre ‘Feminism OFF, Bops ON’.

“I was 18 when I wrote [“Better Than Revenge.”] That’s the age you are when you think someone can actually take your boyfriend. Then you grow up and realize no one can take someone from you if they don’t want to leave”. - Taylor 2014.

Better Than Revenge - Taylor Swift

Let's hear the applause (Come on, come on)

Come on, show me how much better you are

(So much better, yeah?)

See you deserve some applause

'Cause you're so much better

She also released "Last Kiss" about the nicer part of their relationship, and some believe other songs such as If This Was a Movie, Haunted (Speak Now) and Jump Then Fall (Fearless) are about Joe. From the Jonas, the other song believed to be about Taylor is Paranoid (Lines, Vines and Trying Times).

Jump Then Fall

Well, I like the way your hair falls in your face

You got the keys to me

I love each freckle on your face, oh

I've never been so wrapped up, honey

Probably a song was written about and in the early days of their romance and the long hair freckles [x] thing definitely fits 2008 Joe.

If This Was a Movie

Baby, what about the ending?

Oh, I thought you'd be here by now

Thought you'd be here by now

According to some this song is a sister song to "Last Kiss" in the same album and that is confirmed to be about Joe.

Haunted

Come on, come on, don't leave me like this

I thought I had you figured out

Something's gone terribly wrong

Won't finish what you started

This song would be a sister to Forever & Always since Taylor described both to be about a relationship that was fading in the end and that she was confused as to how they got there in the first place.

"‘Haunted’ is about the moment that you realize the person you’re in love with is drifting and fading fast. And you don’t know what to do, but in that period of time, in that phase of love, where it’s fading out, time moves so slowly. Everything hinges on what that last text message said, and you’re realizing that he’s kind of falling out of love. That’s a really heartbreaking and tragic thing to go through because the whole time you’re trying to tell yourself it’s not happening. I went through this, and I ended up waking up in the middle of the night writing this song about it.” Taylor

Friendlier days are coming (2010- )

I guess time can heal a lot of wounds and Toe is seen hugging and on friendly terms at the Clive Davis party on January 31st of 2010 [x].

The world was so shocked when we realized that Joe went to see her perform in a couple of her shows in September 2011 [x] [x], and in here Holy Ground is born about her new evaluation of their former relationship rather than the bitterness of the breakup. The lyrics' secret message is “when you came to the show in SD” and the potential parallel to "Last Kiss".

Holy Ground - Taylor Swift

We blocked the noise with the sound of ‘I need you’

And for the first time I had something to lose

And I guess we fell apart in the usual way

And the story’s got dust on every page

But sometimes I wonder how you think about it now

And I see your face in every crowd…

… Tonight, I'm gonna dance

For all that we've been through

But I don't wanna dance

If I'm not dancing with you

Last Kiss - Taylor Swift

I do remember the swing of your step

The life of the party, you’re showing off again

And I roll my eyes and then

You pull me in

I’m not much for dancing

But for you I did

They're seen talking in the MTV's EMA's 2012 [x].

From here they seem to be friendly and in May of 2015 after the Billboards. They even go on a double date later that year with Gigi Hadid, Calvin Harris, and Karlie Kloss (this picture feels so cursed). Nick and Joe get invited to Taylor’s 4th of July party and they seem somewhat distant after his split from Gigi.

Present (2020- )

In 2020, we got the amazing surprise of folklore with the song ‘Invisible String’ that makes a reference to Taylor’s past songs about exes being harsh and how she sent Joe and his wife Sophie Turner a present for their baby girl’s birth. In 2021, she has now released the re-recordings of Fearless and we are all reliving the drama and enjoying the chaos of Taylor’s and Sophie’s friendship not letting Joe know peace for those 27 seconds over a decade ago.

Invisible String

Cold was the steel of my axe to grind

For the boys who broke my heart

Now I send their babies presents

#Taylor Swift #fearless #fearless (taylor's version)#forever & always #mr perfectly fine #you all over me #last kiss #toe #jaylor #joe jonas #jonas brothers #folklore #invisible string #paranoid #much better #lines #vines and trying times #better than revenge

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gunnerpalace · 4 years

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hey there! so i used to be a huge fan of bleach, and loved ichiruki, and i was reminded of them today but i haven't been involved with the fandom since the series ended. however, i've heard of different variations of why the series ended/ships happened the way they did, and was wondering if you knew or could direct to me a post that explains that? i apologize if i'm bringing up bitter feelings, but i've always been curious if bleach's ending was a big FU from kubo or if he always intended rr/ih

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post that really goes over it structurally in that kind of way (from a shipping perspective). I’ll get back to what you actually asked me after some asides, because it’s not so simple to just analyze the ships in a vacuum.

I’ve had my own post about why the ending was a fuck you moment, thematically, because it failed to resolve any of the themes and momentum of the series in a way that would be appropriate (either internally or in the context of the supposed genre of shounen.)

I would also say that the ending was a fuck you moment in terms of lore, backstory, and mystery, because all of the historical and political dimensions (i.e., things involving the Soul King and Great Houses) were unceremoniously shuffled off to Can’t Fear Your Own World. Not that any of those things were ever brought up properly in the manga to begin with; the proper and natural time for that would’ve been at the conclusion of the Soul Society arc, when Ichigo and co. spent a week there, which we saw none of. So I would say that everything in CFYOW is basically retconned bullshit hung off prior convenient plot hooks, and that the same was true of TYBW and LSS/TLA/Xcution as well. There may have been some notes and forethought, but it’s about as “valid” as Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert’s Dune works are compared to the original Frank Herbert ones; it’s second-hand, at best.

(This is setting aside that Bleach was clearly made up as it went along. For example: Noriaki literally admitted that he didn’t know who had killed Aizen in Soul Society until he realized that Aizen not being dead was the most shocking answer; the clear baiting and abandonment of Kisuke as the villain hinted at through various means such as his unclear and later retconned reasons for being exiled, and so on. Bleach was very much a J. J. Abrams-style mystery box work that was made as it went with, at best, rough notes, which is why its themes and focus change, for the worse. I also have a post about why it stopped being special, which is part of a running series I intend to write on how to rewrite it to fix and preserve that)

The best recent thing to compare it to is, really, HBO’s adaptation of Game of Thrones, wherein D. B. Weiss and David Benioff openly admitted to removing or deemphasizing story elements, and ignoring themes in adapting the work. The difference is that Bleach was not being adapted from anything; it degraded due to its own creator not understanding what he had created.

(To put it very simply, because this would be the point of Hyperchlorate Part II and would take a whole post to explain: the ending of the Soul Society arc did not properly establish and flesh out Soul Society as a place with a history, space, and purpose. Instead, the Arrancar and Hueco Mundo arcs decided to be a thematic inversion and deconstruction of the Karakura and Soul Society arcs. This again had an ending that did not establish or flesh anything out after Aizen’s defeat, with an even greater diffusion of focus onto ancillary characters. The Xcution arc tripled down on this by addressing something entirely new and retconned in, only to abandon it midway through in favor of going back to invoking Soul Society. And Thousand-Year Blood War took all of these problems to 11. tl;dr: Noriaki tried themes, people hated it, and so he just shoved in more and more dumb sword fights between people nobody cared about, half of whom hadn’t previously existed.)

So, let’s get back to your question. Let’s talk about ships. I’ve clicked a lot of keys and spilled a lot of ink on this subject over the years, but I no longer particularly feel like searching my own archives (really ought to go back through and organize them better) beyond this post and my own follow-up to it about the chronology of IR interactions, so I’m just going to repeat myself.

First, let’s say that Bleach was not ever a manga about ships.

I’m not disavowing that what Rukia and Ichigo had was special. That was called out multiple times through the focus of the art, the dialogue, and by the characters themselves. (Directly by, for example, Orihime’s outright statement to the effect in Soul Society, and her later jealousy regarding it. Indirectly by, say, Uryuu’s acknowledgement that him saving Rukia first would piss Ichigo off. In fact, the biggest indirect indicator doesn’t even involve Ichigo and Rukia; Shunsui asks Chad why he’s there and Chad says he wants to save Rukia, Shunsui calls bullshit that two months isn’t enough time to risk your life for that, and Chad agrees and says he’s there because Ichigo wants to do it. Shunsui moves on, but his argument is left hanging: why was two months enough for Ichigo? Because, as Orihime will later say out loud, Rukia is special.)

What I’m saying is that that was never the focus. It was explicitly constructed that way.

How do I know? The Grand Fisher fight. The Grand Fisher fight is emotionally charged, bringing up both Ichigo and Rukia’s greatest traumas, and is their one real moment of not understanding each other for a time. It was a triumphant moment that made them truly glad to know one another, and you can see it in their reactions afterward (Rukia thanking Ichigo for not dying, Ichigo asking Rukia if he can keep being a Shinigami). There was a lot to unpack there, and you can see it in the way they look at each other.

What happened immediately after the Grand Fisher fight? Noriaki skipped a whole month. We go from June 18th of 2001 to July 17th of 2001. He deliberately skipped all of the emotional impact of that event, and Rukia being around for Ichigo’s 16th birthday. Just never happened. We never hear about it. Wasn’t his focus as a writer.

Now, I’m convinced that was because he was scared of what he had on his hands. He wasn’t willing to commit to either a couple’s battle shoujo or a shounen with male and female seemingly-heterosexual co-equal deuteragonists who clearly had a strong emotional bond. More specifically, he wasn’t willing to make Rukia a centerpiece of the manga despite having designed her first, having made her the moral and philosophical core of his manga, and having based Ichigo entirely around completing and complementing her. But hey, that’s just my opinion, right? Except it kept happening.

From the Grand Fisher fight onward, the name of the game in the manga, structurally, became keeping Ichigo and Rukia apart.

The moment she was taken back to Soul Society, her prominence dropped. We got emotionally charged scenes of them regardless. Right at the conclusion, after yet another emotionally heavy set of Ichigo and Rukia interactions, we again skip almost a month, from the end of the first week in August of 2001 to September 1, 2001. (Due to some completely unnecessary timey-wimey bullshit with the Precipice World.)

In the Arrancar and Hueco Mundo arcs, they have roughly a day together over the course of three months. What happens after every meeting? They’re shuffled apart and split up, and we cut away. This time, for over a year!

Ichigo and Rukia again have a very emotionally charged meeting in the Xcution arc. And what happens at the end of that arc? We skip ahead another month to TYBW. (Xcution ended sometime in May of 2003, TYBW starts June 11, 2003.)

And in TYBW, Rukia and Ichigo barely meet up at all. Indeed, the focus is scarcely upon them.

In CFYOW, neither of them even appear, let alone have any relevance to the plot.

The implication, in my opinion, is pretty obvious: Noriaki was deathly afraid of dealing with the outcomes of their interactions, and that ultimately became him being deathly afraid of allowing them to interact at all to begin with. Why? Well, as I said in one of the last linked posts:

As an author, sometimes you will find your characters will do things you didn’t anticipate or plan for, and you’ve got two choices: you can go with the flow and do what’s natural and deal, or you can fight it and try and impose your vision anyway.

He refused to let his art take the direction it needed to go in.

Now, some people might say he got bored of them, or of having them together. I say that’s bullshit. And the reason I say is down to three things:

He didn’t ignore them, he did his best to keep them apart. I outlined this above.

He did not emphasize anything or anyone else instead. His focus was all over the place. While, admittedly, Ichigo’s prominence also declined, so did everyone else’s.

It would have served him well to focus on their interactions to expand his universe and explore its lore. The things that were detailed in the databooks and CFYOW could’ve been presented naturally and easily if they were together. But that came with a cost of shifting the focus. A cost he refused to pay.

Let’s talk more about (2) and (3) now.

Regarding (2), Chad and Orihime are inextricably linked in Bleach, because they essentially have the same relationship to Ichigo. “But Orihime loves Ichigo, and Chad is his no-homo bro!” someone proclaims. So what? They’re presented as equal and parallel at every step.

They both gain their powers at approximately the same time.

We are told they gained their powers due to the Hogyouku (in Rukia at the time) interpreting their wishes (and no one else’s, such as Tatsuki, Keigo, or Mizuiro), meaning they probably had the same strength of desire.

They both go to Soul Society “for Ichigo.”

They both utterly fail against Yammy and Ulquiorra.

They both spend most of the Hueco Mundo arc doing nothing.

They are both featured prominently in the Xcution arc, and both fail to see through Tsukishima’s powers despite their love for Ichigo. (Meanwhile, Byakuya coolly tries to murder someone who he thinks is his mentor, in Ichigo’s name.)

They both get sidelined in Hueco Mundo with Kisuke in TYBW, doing little to nothing.

They both are utterly ineffectual in the final fight in TYBW.

They are often portrayed together, they are often as effective as one another, and they are equally as developed in their relationship to Ichigo going forward, which is to say: not at all. The loss of focus on IR did not come with an attendant rise of focus on IH, any more than it did with the sudden rise of IchiChad. Nothing was built in IR’s place. There was no emotional or human content which filled its gap.

This is where the IH ending coming “out of nowhere” stems from: it indeed came out of nowhere, because Ichigo was never shown to have any interest in Orihime in all this time, nor an especially close relationship with her. He never hangs out with Chad or shows a bond with him either. He never hangs out with anyone, in fact. (Indeed, “friends” in Bleach do not do any of the things that friends actually do in real life. Nor do parents. You might say that interpersonal relationships and communication largely don’t exist in Bleach. But that’s its whole own topic.)

I would honestly say that more time and emphasis was given on Ichigo’s pseudo-surrogate mother relationship with Ikumi than was spent on him interacting with Orihime. (I would say Noriaki has serious hangups about relationships of any kind, be they romantic, familial, or friendly, and also has some severe hangups regarding mothers and fathers, but that is also its whole own topic.)

Regarding (3), Noriaki apparently wanted this big, Game of Thrones-style world with a long history and political machinations and so on. This is the whole point of TYBW and CFYOW. Trouble is, early Bleach was successful because of its small-scale intimacy. So how do you go from one to the other? You have to lay the foundations at every step. And Noriaki steadfastly refused to do so at every step. Having Ichigo and Rukia interact, and focusing on Rukia while Ichigo was sidelined without powers, would’ve permitted that organically. Indeed, if RR was the endgame, it would have given time to establish that, were it his desire. (Because Rukia never showed any interest in Renji, and frankly Renji always seemed way more preoccupied with Byakuya.) It didn’t serve his goals, but he did it anyway.

It’s much simpler to say he lost focus, and that he started to hate the manga as a whole. Why else would you have Mayuri fighting a giant hand when that achieved nothing, and Kenpachi fighting Thor when that achieved nothing? It became empty. Hollow, you might say.

But that takes us back to the question you posed: where did the ships come from? Nowhere. IH, RR, and fucking TatsuKeigo weren’t established anywhere. They just appeared. Why?

Well, why did every single character wind up doing the exact opposite of their intended and stated goals in the end?

Why did Soul Society revert to its previous attitude and rebuild the Sokyouku?

Why did nothing get resolved?

Why did nothing change?

Why was it all revealed to have been completely and utterly pointless?

In my view, it’s because that ending was a giant fuck you to the readership and Shueisha. There is no other way to interpret an author pulling a 180° and completely nullifying their characters’ arcs, and their work’s themes. Aizen’s little speech at the end is the cherry on top. I read it as Noriaki saying that he’s showing “courage” in telling us all to fuck off.

As to why? That’s an open question. His relationship with Shueisha was contentious, so maybe he was mad at them. (They gave him a deadline once he was dragging his feet, and reclassified Bleach as a joke manga.) His readership was on the decline after the Soul Society arc ended, so maybe he was mad at the audience. I don’t know. I also don’t really care. What I am convinced of is he decided to blow up his franchise and to not leave a single stone unturned when he did so.

That’s where that “ending” comes from, which is why despite it featuring IH and RR, both are thoroughly unsatisfying and without setup: it was the only way to piss absolutely everyone off, including people who wanted that outcome.

In a way, it was his greatest success since the early days of the manga.

Anyway, this was messy, but it’s not a simple topic to address. The tl;dr is that Bleach was a trainwreck from the very beginning that only succeeded on the merits of its characters, and that Noriaki deliberately avoided the promise it had to be something unique and grand. The ships are just a part of that, and cannot be understood in isolation from it.

#Asks #Bleach

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