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isagrimorie · 4 years

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@glompcat

replied to your post

“I was listening to “Talking Who to You” and their review of Diary of...”

They sometimes almost seem to have a hint of an interesting idea to explore with her in that regard, but then since they refuse to actually examine these things just abandon it. Like in Legacy of Time, when Benny started to question what River really *means* when she talks about being married. Or in Eight of March's Emancipation where River expressed envy for two seconds that Leela lived on Gallifrey with her Time Lord husband. Which also opened up the fascinating whole subject of how much River really knows/understands. She studied the Doctor, she learned about them and their friends from academic texts and third and fourth hand accounts. She clearly doesn't actually *know* most things, and I wish we could see more of her coming up against the fact she doesn't actually understand everything, that she is clinging to these assured ideas and yet the reality of the situation still surprises her etc

Instead of like... constantly needing to write stories where River's odd view is affirmed as right. Like in Emancipation she comments that she understands Time Lords just as well as Leela, and that just... continues to stick out to me. Because obs Leela didn't challenge that as she had no idea who River was, which meant that just went on by without comment and just... confused the shit out of me. She isn't a first hand expert and authority on everything. She's an academic, an archaeologist. She's still never met any Time Lords other than the Doctor and the Master, and most of what she knows is based on a lifetime of academic study. That *could* lead to hilarious misunderstanding/vulnerability in her stories when she does have to meet up with the Doctor.

Oh man. Yes, those two stories!

I was especially disappointed with the Legacy of Time story with Benny when it suddenly became ALL about Eight. Here are two awesome women, who are so similar to each other and all the writers could think about was put Eight into the story.

And then doesn’t even delve deeper into it. I figure Benny’s expression the whole time was mildly confused and ‘seriously?.

And you bring up a good point! For the longest time all River knew about the Doctor is what Madam Kovarian taught her, she is an academic! Also, of all people to say she knows Time Lords as much as Leela... who has lived with Time Lords, and not just one outlier renegade Time Lord.

I was also pretty annoyed with majority of the story until the last part but man, I really need a writer to really push more into River’s story and dig deeper. They could go for a more comedic effect with it too!

It certainly would be a more interesting thing to explore than jokes about how because she's married to the Doctor it is magically ok for her to strip them naked and have her way with them when they're unconscious, like we got in the boxset where she met Five. Which was just... such a rollercoaster for me as it is the one where she gets to confront Kevorkian!

Oh. God. That boxset.

I know what you mean. I was so uncomfortable, and clearly Five didn’t know what was going on nor did he want to participate with anything River was trying to initiate.

It also goes to my point of -- just because The Doctor married her, doesn’t mean it travels back to the Doctor’s other lives. I can maybe accept this up until Eight because he straddles the line of Pre- and during Time War, the catalyst that changed the Doctor into the person River fell in love with.

Moffat might be all into the Time Traveler’s Wife story but I’m a firm believer of ‘right time, right place’. The Doctor pre-Time War isn’t the exact same person that becomes the post-Time War Doctor/Post-almost recovery Doctor who falls in love with River. Pre-Time War Doctor isn’t ready to fall in love with River, the Doctor has a whole life before River, a whole family before River. Just as much as she should and does have her own life outside of the Doctor, the Doctor had a whole history before River.

Yet even there, when Kevorkian is there and they are literally inside a copy of River's childhood bedroom there was no real grappling with what it means that River studied the Doctor-as-monster her whole youth long that she was training to kill them literally every day of her childhood, and yes, somewhere along the way things changed, so what happened, when did she start to see the Doctor differently, and what misconceptions does she still carry with her from her earlier studies and how do they inform how she sees the Doctor's actions/their relationship now?

I can only nod here, because like I mentioned in the post, I wanted to know when exactly did River really fall in love with the Doctor and not just the idea of the Doctor or the things she knew about him? When was the first moment that didn’t have to do with any of those things did she realize she’s in love with him, for realsies?

When she meets these people who knew the Doctor like Benny or Leela (or Susan or Ian or Barbara etc except I haven't heard that box set of Diaries yet unlike the others) how do their impressions contrast with her own?

Not to harp on about that one off story too much, but it stood out to me due to its obvious positioning as both written and directed by women, but I do think about things like how in The Eighth of March Emancipation she kept insinuating that the Doctor mainly kept Leela around for eye candy and how that showed this MASSIVE lack of understanding of Four and what he was about and it really fascinates me, like what does it mean for an Academic to literally fall in love with the subject of her studies? Particularly an Archaeologist whose field is built on piecing together desperate remnants to create an incomplete idea of a whole? Like if her stories must all culminate in being about the Doctor (which based on some things said in Vortex I think may have been part of what Moffat told them to do with her)

‘Like if her stories must all culminate about being about the Doctor’ AUGH. This is so frustrating. Especially the part about what River’s insinuating about Leela, who is awesome and fantastic. I mean, isn’t enough she still gets called Savage in Gallifrey? And River has to pile that on top too. Thankfully this rolls off of Leela, but honestly, that was uncalled for.

why not actually explore how and why she reached the conclusions she did in Husbands of River Song, which is of course always in her future? It's set after all of these adventures we listen to, so why not - if a Doctor plot is needed - focus on how she reached the conclusions she did there if that speech was sincere?

THIS THIS THIS.

IDK. There is so much they could explore with her but they just don't seem willing to challenge her... authority? In a way that ultimately undercuts her, because she is constantly positioned in a mold that removes any actual work needed to gain information/the upper hand/her level of skill. So rather than being the result of hard work and effort, it's just... how it is. Which de-powers her. IDK, I kept trying with Diaries I really did, but it actually was the one with Tom Baker in it that made me give up.

“they just don't seem willing to challenge her... authority? In a way that ultimately undercuts her, because she is constantly positioned in a mold that removes any actual work needed to gain information/the upper hand/her level of skill.“

Yes, this, exactly! It’s like the writers are way too afraid to handle River with anything but reverence and care. And for a story to work, characters shouldn’t be handled like they’re made of glass!

In the end, what happens is, it feels like the stories are all telling not showing.

The start of it (Diary of River Song boxset with Four), long before the story with the Doctor in it, had people who knew her as students at Luna University in it, and the way the story dealt with them and their relationship to River, it was honestly insulting, not just to the characters but to anyone who has ever been in graduate school. Like they kept fundamentally refusing to either understand or care to understand what being in an Academic institute means. By claiming it was all so easy for River and removing the effort and skill needed, they are de-powering her PhD. By making the other students all so incompetent in comparison to her, they are again... - her PhD. Hell, now that they've established Benny was her tutor, they're depowering Benny (ED: emphasis mine) in the process. And that is not even starting to touch on the dynamic of having the other academic in that story ultimately hating River because her Husband had been in love with River and asked her out one time in Grad school before River rejected him and he is still hung up on River? Like who thought that was a good dynamic?

...

Which is I guess a lot of words to essentially say that Big Finish often refuses to take River off this strange pedestal of hyper-competent perfection, where she is always the most clever person in the room, always knows the answer, and even in her fucks ups and failures is still ~the expert~ in full. But in so doing the value in her expertise, the hard work, the real strength it took for her to get to where she is... well to be deemphasized it has to even be a factor which it never is, as it just doesn't seem to exist for them at all. She just knows everything until the plot demand she doesn't so things can move along, and when she knows it she knows it best, and if you question this in any way she'll respond with a joking quip and won't you look silly than, and that is that.

☝️☝️☝️

Whole heartedly agree, Big Finish isn’t doing the work they should be doing to really explore her character, and we know from other stories that they can actually deepen a character’s back story and add more insight to them too!

I mean, my favorite BF Doctors (other than Eight) are Six and Five with Peri and Erimem!

BF has had so many opportunities to do better by River but they always end up going the easy way instead of doing the hard work to explore a) who River is outside of her programming, how much it’s affected her and b) make River face up to questions about her feelings for the Doctor.

c) Also, just like with Kate Stewart in UNIT, I don’t want to hear the Brig’s name uttered in the presence of and around Kate. I don’t want River to run into the Doctor in the next couple of boxsets.

#reply #glompcat #discussion: big finish #big finish is not doing river any favors #DO RIGHT BY RIVER BIG FINISH

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obsidianarchives · 5 years

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Game of Thrones Recap: S8E1 - "Winterfell"

We’re back! After 12 years of waiting (okay, a year and a half, but who’s counting) Game of Thrones has returned. Mirroring the reunion of long-separated characters in-show, this episode at once feels like an old friend that never left, and yet has grown and matured in undeniable, but almost imperceptible ways. Compared to previous seasons, the episode maintained the improved (if breakneck) pacing of post-book content but has characters being written more consistently with their established arcs and motivations. They even trotted out a new intro this season. While in past years, the focus was just on how expansive this story truly was, ranging across countries on two continents, the focus is now much narrower and honed in on the remaining threats.

King’s Landing

In the capital, we see Cersei overseeing The Golden Company’s arrival in Westeros without much fanfare, and to the Queen’s deep disappointment, sans elephants. With precious little time left in the series, it seems unlikely the famed Essos mercenary troop will feature as much political intrigue as suggested in the books (with much of that being shifted into Jon and Daenerys’s storyline), they do at the very least come through suited and booted under the command of Captain-General Harry Strickland. The comparatively ragtag Second Suns these are not! Sidelined sidepiece Daario Naharis can eat his heart out while we see exactly what this portends for Cersei’s grand plans.

Speaking of royal jumpoffs, Euron again asks for a downpayment on his reward for aiding the Crown and asks to bed the Queen. She reads from the Book of Olivia Pope and demands Euron earn her, and then immediately lets him into her bed anyway. While most people are, to put it mildly, bemused by Euron’s continued prominence I’m (against my better judgement) at least willing to see where the writers are taking us with his character. It seems like there’s at least one twist left in his arc, at the very least as an obstacle in the Cersei/Jaime relationship. The story would have been better served setting it up during the meandering season 5 as the series stalled for George RR Martin to finish his books, but what’s done is done. If nothing else highlighted how truly alone Queen Cersei has become, it was her resignation in letting a Greyjoy into her bed, even if it was simply to keep him around and as a tool for her alleged pregnancy.

Meanwhile, after interrupting one of Bronn’s dalliances, Hand of the Queen Qyburn relays Cersei’s offer of gold to the sellsword if he will kill her “traitorous brothers” Jaime and Tyrion. And because she has no chill, she wants him to use Joffrey’s crossbow that Tyrion used to kill Tywin to do it. I think most of us would be surprised if he took her up on the offer and betrayed his friends, especially since he got paid up front, but this furthers the idea that one of her brothers will turn the tables and be the one to kill the Queen.

Finally we were reminded that King of the Iron Islands, Euron, whose ships ferried the Golden Company, still had Yara as a hostage in his ship. This is immediately paid off as Theon leads a successful rescue while crazy uncle “Crow’s Eye” is occupied plying his wares trying to send Cersei her queenly quivers. It’s still eff Theon forever around these parts, and while I remain unmoved by his inevitable redemption arc, he did come through for once. Despite her time as a captive Yara almost immediately has a plan and decides to retake the Iron Islands while Euron is abroad to provide a fallout shelter to survive the Winter should the Northern Alliance fail. Theon however feels honor bound to return to Winterfell and help his Stark kindred. While that’s cool and all, I’d be more worried about the other Northerners if they see him first. The last thing they remember is him allegedly burning the youngest Stark heirs alive and setting Winterfell to the torch among an infestation of Ironborn captors in the North.

Sidenote: Everyone is real cool about seeing Bran alive and wheeling around. Sansa knew Theon didn’t actually burn them because he slipped up, but everyone else should be a little more shocked he’s still alive.

Last Hearth

In Winterfell, we learned when the Wall fell, Sansa called all her banners to Winterfell to prepare for the long night. Ned Umber, underaged son of the traitorous Smalljon (who died in the Battle of the Bastards) and current lord of the Last Hearth, remains a straggler and was given more horses and wagons to transport his crew. You knew from jump nothing good was going to come from that late breaking news.

Cutting to the Umber’s house seat, we find out Tormund and the plot imperative remainder of the Brotherhood without Banners survived the collapse of the Wall and have made their way to the Northernmost castle in Westeros. It’s abandoned however, with obvious signs of a recent White Walker attack. In an eerie dark, they run into Lord Commander Dolorous Edd and what’s left of the Night’s Watch also making their way south. Momentarily fooled by Tormund’s gorgeous baby blue eyes, the two parties join up to find Ned Umber’s dead body bolted to the wall with the arms of several other corpses arrayed in a now all too familiar spiral pattern of the dead. Many viewers have noted the vague similarity between this and the Targaryen sigil. It’s possible “Fire and Blood” may have a deeper meaning than we originally thought, but before we can ponder that, surprise! Little homie ain’t dead!

Well, he is dead, but not dead-dead, which is still bad news for our group as he zombies back into the fight as Tormund’s back is turned. Luckily Beric Dondarrion and his flaming sword are there to burn him, but now they know the army of the dead is between them and their retreat to Winterfell.

Winterfell

WHERE. IS. GHOST?!?!?!?! Ahem...

We start in the home of the Starks, and quite expertly mirrored the start of the series with seemingly all of the North gathered to witness the procession coming to Winterfell and the arrival of the King and Queen. They even featured a young boy as Bran 2.0 climbing around and Arya hiding in plain sight betraying her noble bearing. Not to be forgotten is the Permit Patty looks of the Northerners as they see Missandei and Grey Worm rolling through the gates, and you can tell they have clearly not seen Black people in the North before.

Jon Snow returns to Winterfell after his quest for allies (and dragonglass), and he finally gets his reunion with Bran, who he hasn’t seen since episode 2 when he was hanging on for dear life after being pushed out of the Astronomy Tower by Jaime Lannister. Any hope that Bran may have gotten some chill in the offseason and settled into being a less creepy Three-Eyed Raven was immediately blown as he remains as cold and detached as ever. He rudely interrupts the formalities between a less than impressed Sansa and meeting the family Daenerys to remind them they “don’t have time for all of that” with the Night King on the march. He does have time for an old friend, but we’ll get back to that later.

We soon find out that Sansa isn’t the only one a bit chafed at Daenerys’s presence and what that means for the political reality of the North. The trillest player in the game, and Lady Olenna reincarnated, Lady Lyanna Mormont takes time out of her busy day of giving people stank faces to read Jon for filth. We all know Jon is only concerned about the Great War against the dead, and while you’d THINK knowing their only protection from the White Walkers which had stood for 8,000 years was gone would focus them, petty is gonna petty. Meanwhile Sansa asks the QTNA such as how are we supposed to feed these extra 100,000 people you just showed up to dinner with? Did you bring food for those two fully-grown dragons with you, or did you burn all that grain from Highgarden and spend the money on winter fits Dany?

The homecomings continue as former (and technically still, depending on your interpretation) husband and wife Sansa and Tyrion get to catch up for the first time since the Purple Wedding. We get to see how much Sansa has grown, and for all the earlier haters calling her naive and dumb, she’s the one pointing out the obvious holes in believing in Lannister promises. But the real meeting we’ve all been waiting for finally happened; Jon and Arya are together again! They both downplayed what they’ve been through, but we see just how much their experiences have changed them. Jon has spent seven seasons doing everything he can to be the shield that guards the realms of men. Arya in turn did everything she could, and killed anyone she had to in order to make her way back home to her family. It’s a subtle difference in perspective that Arya invited Jon to realize before his big picture thinking misses the forest for the trees.

And then there was Gendrya!!! Sorry, got a bit excited there for a second. We see Gendry already hard at work fashioning dragonglass weapons in the Winterfell forge. Arya comes in to ask for a custom made weapon, and also to flirt, and their obvious chemistry has not changed a bit. But before that, the Hound gets to be a proud papa bear and see his baby for the first time since she left him to die (and robbed him) at the end of season 4. It went about as gruff and awkwardly as you’d expect but there was obvious love there.

While Ser Davos, former hand of the former King in the North Jon Snow, talks to Tyrion about the seemingly inevitable marriage proposal to seal their alliance, Daenerys and her boo are looking for any excuse to get out of his folk’s place and get it on. She takes him out for a date, and apparently Jon has been putting it down so good she’s letting him borrow her car with the AKA plates. She invites him to get on Rhaegal and we finally get Jon, the not-so-secret Targaryen, riding a dragon!!!!!! The dragon named after his father no less, and while we all know — and the dragons clearly know — Dany and Jon are still in the dark about his true parentage. They fly off to a cave underneath a waterfall and Dany remarks they could stay there for a thousand years in obvious echoes of the dialogue between Jon and Ygritte north of the Wall.

After getting her back broken, Dany goes with her little buddy Jorah to thank Maester school dropout Sam for curing his greyscale. Upon realizing he’s a Tarly however, she also has to not-so-delicately break the news that she flambéed his father and brother for not bending the knee. Already crestfallen, Sam is pushed by Bran to reveal Jon’s true parentage as he’s paying his respects in the Winterfell crypts.

Always on time for heartbreak, we realize this is the first time Jon has “seen” his father since they parted ways on the Kingsroad in S1E2 when Ned promised to explain about his mother the next time they saw each other. What should have been another joyous meeting between best friends is soiled as Jon is less struck by the “you’ve been playing hide Longclaw with your Auntie” news than the whole “you’re the one true King” part, and is in full denial of a man who’s been given yet another promotion he never asked for. In the space of a single conversation, he now has to grapple with the feeling that his father Ned lied to him about who he was his entire life, whether this news cripples his alliance to save Westeros and defeat the dead, the realization that the love of his life is not only now a political rival but blood family, and the weight of another crown after he just refused the first.

In our final scene we see a hooded Jaime Lannister make his way into Winterfell after finally abandoning his sister’s evil to try and fight for the living out of honor. Unfortunately, the very FIRST person he sees is Bran, who’s been sitting in the same exact spot all night, waiting for his “old friend.” See, he didn’t have time for Jon to meet the family, but he did make time for Jaime’s ass after he pushed him out of the window.

With all the callbacks, this episode did a wonderful job of subtly (and not-so-subtly) reminding us of where we started so we can appreciate just how far we’ve come. While some were expecting a bang after so long off the air, the first episode of the final season focused on setting the final pieces on the chess board, and giving us a deep breath before the final descent into madness.

#Game of Thrones #Season 8 #Winterfell #Winter Is Coming

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