#and yeah I'm aware this might be a disingenuous ask

[nkjemisin]

Hey there. I'm writing a story set in New York City and am not American. I have few characters, but most of them are arab or white. I can't help but feel a bit wrong about it, given that America is much more diverse than that, and NYC being an emblem of that. Do you think I should force myself to include more representation or should I just tell my story, and leave that more diverse cast to some other story I could write? I know this is a neverending debate and there are many opinions about it, but I've always agreed with everything you've said in matters of representation in fiction, and so I'd be curious to know your personal answer on it.

I'm a little confused by how you're using "representation," here. It sounds like you think representation = "randomly sticking BIPOC everywhere." I think when most people use that word, it means something more like "create an accurate or at least plausible depiction of a group or place." In actual New York, there are plenty of Middle Easterners and white people who live in relatively homogeneous small communities where they might only see someone of a different ethnicity on the subway. If your story is set in one of those communities -- and you do stick some random BIPOC in that subway scene, because that's plausible -- then it sounds like your characters might be an example of good representation.

(Note: if you're not writing something set in the real world, but it features human beings, it needs to represent humanity as a whole, unless there's a good in-world reason not to. But if it's our world? You can get specific.)

Here's the catch, tho: plausibility is relative. If you've absorbed some biases and haven't done enough research, then you might end up writing something that feels plausible to you, but which isn't actually representative or plausible to anyone else. The way to avoid this is to do the research and check (to the best of your ability) your biases. For example, you aren't American, I assume you've at least visited NYC? If not, you should. You can visit some of the communities I mentioned! You can eat in restaurants, visit mosques, have conversations with actual real people who are living the life you're writing about! If you don't have the time, money, or spoons to do that, there are other ways to do good research -- films and YT/Tiktok videos made by people from the communities in question, for example. But you'd need to watch a lot of them to get a good representative sample.

I recommend this book to all the writing students I've taught at Clarion, and other writer workshops: Writing the Other, by Nisi Shawl and Cynthia Ward. There's a particular part of it that seems relevant here, which is a kind of hierarchy of "appropriate" appropriation, I think first mentioned by Diantha Day Sprouse but included in Writing the Other. Basically it says that if you want to write about a culture that isn't your own, you can learn about that culture in one of several ways: a) You can be an Invader, and just go take whatever intellectual and artistic tidbits from that culture that you want, regardless of how damaging this might be to members of that group. Example: non-Indigenous people who write about actual secret practices, or who encourage the desecration of sacred places. b) You can be a Tourist, in which you're still mooching from that culture, but at least you're figuratively paying someone for it and accepting tidbits that the culture has chosen to sell. Example: getting a sensitivity reader. Or c) you can be an Invited Guest, who brings in as much as they take out, and who has formed relationships that are beneficial to all involved. Example: being part of an exchange program, both as a student and later as a host, and maintaining those friendships outside of the program.

The goal is to be an IG, but that isn't always possible. Tourist is still better than being an Invader. (...I feel like I'm leaving out a category. It's been a while since I read the book; any more recent readers want to check me here?) But the closer you can get to actually participating in that culture, the more your work will be informed by reality instead of biases or misinformation, and the more likely your work will read as plausible not just to you, but to your widest possible audience -- people familiar with the culture and people who aren't.

(I'm a little concerned about your phrasing of "force myself to include more representation," note. Why would that need to be a forced thing? A writer's goal should be to write something that feels lived-in and authentic to [if it's a real place] most people's experience -- not to meet some arbitrary standard, but because that's how you master immersion and characterization. If good immersion and characterization feel forced to you right now, that suggests you need more practice. I recommend writing short stories!)

#answered asks #long #sorry I took a while to reply #some asks require more nuanced replies #and I put this one in drafts because it was so long #then forgot it was there #and yeah I'm aware this might be a disingenuous ask #but I am choosing to treat it as good faith

[luveline]

Hi Jade, just wanted to say, that it's totally okay to feel that way, It really is. You went through something that sucked so fucking much and you shouldn't feel angry at yourself for feeling what you are feeling. Honestly, if someone did the same to me I would feel the same.

I hope that stupid fucking idiots don't keep you away from your writing, because you are so talented it hurts🤭. Please take your time, the real ones will wait for you to return, whenever you feel better.

Love uuuu, hope you'll feel better.💕💕💕💕🥰🥰

There's part of me that knows it sucked and sucks and will suck for a while and then there's part of me that's like — okay babe you can simmer down now, it wasn't too bad. I think I have this dual awareness of it like – yeah that hurt your feelings but if you wanted to whine about it you should've done it at the time and — I don't know. I think I'm so sick of constantly trying to calculate how people will react to my feelings like . I don't wanna be a cunt about stuff and have it come back to bite me. Luveline's that egotistical freak who couldn't cope with a mutual accidentally paraphrasing her fic (though I'd like to reaffirm that this is not the sole reason I'm having a nervy b)

I'm sick of myself as im answering this ask right now cos I'm thinking, someone might take this the wrong way, someone's gonna say you're being disingenuous, or a wussy, I am so so terrified of being a bad sport or a bitch that it's like I have this constant babble in the back of my head telling me to stop talking

Stupid fucking idiots — I love you so much for your ask but I just wanna take a second to say I can't agree with this part 'cause it was an accident, you know? Unless you mean the mean anons then yes I'm seconding it and people are idiots. Which isn't to say 'mean anons' are without credibility (no I'm not saying you should send people hate) I'm sure I've received critique that was sorely needed at that point and nobody is above review but also sometimes people are fucking idiots (revisting my earlier point — I'm very tired of myself because as I'm writing this I'm worrying about all the ways someone might take it out of context). People suck sooooo much but that's because they're people, we are all idiots and none of us are infallible, but people r also great too like you, who took the time to send me something encouraging and sweet and empathetic when you absolutely didn't have to, so thank you

#jade's asks #ily

[olderthannetfic]

I'm a Chinese, nationally and racially. Racial projection seems to be a common practice in western fandom, doesn't it? I find it a bit... weird to witness the drama ignited upon shipping individuals with different races, or the tendency to separate characters into different "colors" even though the world setting doesn't divide races like that. Such practice isn't a thing here. Mind explaining a bit on this phenomenon?

--

Sure, I can try. But of course, fish aren’t very good at explaining the water they swim in.

Americans aren’t good at detecting our own Americanness, and a lot of what you’re seeing is very much culturally American rather than Western in general. (In much of Europe, “race” is a concept used by racists, or so I’m told, unlike in the US where it’s seen more neutrally.) Majority group members (i.e. me, a white girl) aren’t usually the savviest about minority issues, but I’ll give it a shot.

The big picture is that most US race stuff boils down to our attempts to justify and maintain slavery and that dynamic being applied, awkwardly, to everyone else too, even years after we abolished slavery.

There’s a concept called the “one drop rule” where a person is “black” if they have even one drop of black blood.

We used to outlaw “interracial” marriage until quite recently. (That meant marriage between black people and white people with Asians and Hispanic people and others wedged in awkwardly.) Here’s the Wikipedia article on this, which contains the following map showing when we legalized interracial marriage. The red states are 1967.

That’s within living memory for a ton of people! Yellow is 1948 to 1967. This is just not very long ago at all. (Hell, we only fully banned slavery in 1865, which is also just not that long ago when it comes to human culture.)

Why did we have this bananas-crazy set of laws and this idiotic notion that one remote ancestor defines who you are? It boils down to slavery requiring a constant reaffirming that black people are all the same (and subhuman) while white people are all this completely separate category. The minute you start intermarrying, all of that breaks down. This was particularly important in our history because our system of slavery involved the kids of slaves being slaves and nobody really buying their way out. Globally, historically, there are other systems of slavery where there was more mobility or where enslaved people were debtors with a similar background to owners, and thus the people in power were less threatened by ambiguity in identity.

Post-slavery, this shit hung around because it was in the interests of the people in power to maintain a similar status quo where black people are fundamentally Other.

A lot of our obsession with who counts as what is simply a legacy of our racist past that produced our racist present.

--

The other big factor in American concepts of identity is that we see ourselves as a nation of immigrants (ignoring our indigenous peoples, as usual). A lot of people’s families arrived here relatively recently, and we often don’t have good records of exactly where they were from, even aside from enslaved people who obviously wouldn’t have those records. Plenty of people still identify with a general nationality (”Italian-American” and such), but the nuance the family might once have had (specific region of Italy, specific hometown) is often lost. Yeah, I know every place has immigrants, and lots of people don’t have good records, but the US is one of those countries where families have on average moved around a lot more and a lot more recently than some, and it affects our concepts of identity. I think some of the willingness to buy into the idea of “races” rather than “ethnicities” has to do with this flattening of identity.

New immigrant groups were often seen as Other and lesser, but over time, the ones who could manage it got added to our concept of “whiteness”, which gave them access to those same social and economic privileges.

Skin color is a big part of this. In a system that is founded on there being two categories, white owners and black slaves, skin color is obviously going to be about that rather than being more of a class marker like it is in a lot of the world.

But it’s not all about skin color since we have plenty of Europeans with somewhat darker skin who are seen as generically white here, while very pale Asians are not. I’m not super familiar with all of the history of anti-Asian racism in the US, but I think this persistent Otherness probably boils down to Western powers trying to justify colonial activities in Asia plus a bunch of religious bullshit about predominantly Christian nations vs. ones that are predominantly Buddhist or some other religion.

In fact, a lot of racist archetypes in English can be traced back to England’s earliest colonial efforts in Ireland. Justifying colonizing Those People because they’re subhuman and/or ignorant and in need of paternalistic rulers or religious conversion is at the bottom of a lot of racist notions. Ironic that we now see Irish people as clearly “white”.

--

There are a lot of racist porn tropes and racist cultural baggage here around the idea of black people being animalistic. Racist white people think black men want to rape/steal white women from white men. Black women get seen as hypersexual and aggressive. If this sounds like white people projecting in order to justify murder and rape... well, it is.

Similar tropes get applied to a lot of groups, often including Hispanic and Middle Eastern people, though East Asians come in more for creepy fantasies about endlessly submissive and promiscuous women. This nonsense already existed, but it was certainly not helped by WWII servicemen from here and their experiences in Asia. Again, it’s a projection to justify shitty behavior as what the party with less power was “asking for”.

In porn and even romance novels, this tends to turn up as a white character the audience is supposed to identify with paired with an exotic, mysterious Other or an animalistic sexy rapist Other.

A lot of fandoms are based on US media, so all of our racist bullshit does apply to the casting and writing of those, whether or not the fic is by Americans or replicating our racist porn tropes.

(Obviously, things get pretty hilarious and infuriating once Americans get into c-dramas and try to apply the exact same ideas unchanged to mainstream media about the majority group made by a huge and powerful country.)

--

Politically, within the US, white people have had most of the power most of the time. We also make up a big chunk of the population. (This is starting to change in some areas, which has assholes scared shitless.) This means that other groups tend to band together to accomplish shared political goals. They’re minorities here, so they get lumped together.

A lot of Americans become used to seeing the world in terms of “white people” who are powerful oppressors and “people of color” who are oppressed minorities. They’re trying to be progressive and help people with less power, and that’s good, but it obviously becomes awkward when it’s over-applied to looking at, say, China.

--

Now... fandom...

I find that fandom, in general, has a bad habit of holding things to double standards: queer things must be Good Representation™ even when they’re not being produced for that purpose. Same for ethnic minorities or any other minority. US-influenced parts of fandom (which includes a lot of English-speaking fandom) tend to not be very good at accepting that things are just fantasy. This has gotten worse in recent years.

As fandom has gotten more mainstream here, general media criticism about better representation (both in terms of number of characters and in terms of how they’re portrayed) has turned into fanfic criticism (not enough fics about ship X, too many about ship Y, problematic tropes that should not be applied to ship X, etc.). I find this extremely misguided considering the smaller reach of fandom but, more importantly, the lack of barriers to entry. If you think my AO3 fic sucks, you can make an account and post other fic that will be just as findable. You don’t need money or industry connections or to pass any particular hurdle to get your work out there too.

People also (understandably) tend to be hypersensitive to anything that looks like a racist porn trope. My feeling is that many of these are general porn tropes and people are reaching. There are specific tropes where black guys are given a huge dick as part of showing that they’re animalistic and hypersexual, but big dicks are really common in porn in general. The latter doesn’t automatically mean you’re doing the former unless there are other elements present. A/B/O or dubcon doesn’t mean it’s this racist trope either, not unless certain cliched elements are present. OTOH, it’s not hard for a/b/o tropes to feel close to “animalistic guy is rapey”, so I can see why it often bothers people.

A huge, huge, huge proportion of wank is “all rape fantasies are bad” crap too, which muddies the waters. I think a lot of people use “it’s racist” as an easy way to force others to agree with their incorrect claims that dubcon, noncon, a/b/o, etc. are fundamentally bad. Many fans, especially white fans, feel like they don’t know enough to refute claims of racism, so they cave to such arguments even when they’re transparently disingenuous.

--

Not everyone here thinks this way. I know plenty of people offline, particularly a lot of nonwhite people, who think fandom discourse is idiotic and that the people “protecting” people or characters of color are far more racist than the people writing “bad” fic or shipping the wrong thing.

But in general, I’d say that the stuff above is why a lot of us see the world as white people in power vs. everyone else as oppressed victims, interracial relationships as fraught, and porn about them as suspect. Basically, it’s people trying to be more progressive and aware but sometimes causing more harm than good when those attempts go awry.

#Anonymous

[2cumlord]

> Sock: Troll this human.

TA: 2o how wa2 valentiine2 day. TT: Great, thanks. TT: How was Quadrant Affirmation Day? TA: boriing. TT: Sucks. TA: eh. could be wor2e. TA: ii could be you. TT: Okay, that was too easy of an insult. TA: hey ii mean iit from the pu2her. iit ii2 2uch a 2alve two know that at lea2t ii dont have two eke out YOUR piitiiful exii2tence. TT: You just really love to shit on me, huh. I say this every day like it's somehow news to me, but honestly. TA: no. hey. lii2ten. TT: What.

TA: 2o ii am pretty alone up here, riight? ii am ok wiith iit becau2e iif 2omeone DOE2 come two 2ee me there ii2 u2ually 2ome kiind of torment iinvolved. ii dont experiience po2iitiive phy2iical contact. TA: recently an old friiend wa2 a22iigned two my 2hiip. but 2he 2tiill ha2nt come two 2ee me iirl, partiially due two ju2t not wantiing two. 2he know2 that 2he wiill be horriifiied when 2he 2ee2 me. TA: but at lea2t ii know that MY ii2olatiion ii2 iimpo2ed by external factor2. there are rea2on2 thiing2 are what they are. you diid thii2 two your2elf. you arent beiing phy2iically kept from anythiing. no one touche2 you and youre alone from everyone and iit2 all becau2e of you. TT: Yeah. TA: that2 what make2 you a cuck. TT: Don't think that's what cuck means. TA: you 2hould lii2ten two hal more. word2 dont actually mean thiing2. TT: Yeah, okay. TT: You just say things, huh. TT: You just say things and don't give a shit. Wow. TA: what? TT: Nothing, dude, I'm just you know, reeling a little bit on how you think you can just say things to me. TA: that ii2 liiterally how 2ociial exchange2 work. ii know you are criippliingly ii2olated but come on. TT: No. I refuse. TT: Fuck you TA: whatever. TT: Self-isolating is great actually. Don't get why you think I'm bothered that I'm alone. TA: lol. that ii2nt goiing two conviince me but hey whatever make2 you feel better. TT: Wow. TA: what. TT: What are you confused about. TA: oh ii dont thiink iim confu2ed. youre ju2t playiing up how 2hocked and taken aback you are 2o you dont have two confront the fact that iim riight. TT: Right about what? TA: all that 2tuff ii 2aiid. about how alone you are. TA: keep up. TT: You're really not. TA: whatever. TT: If you were right, what would that change. TA: hey admii22iion ii2 the fiir2t 2tep. TT: Haha. TA: lol. TT: You’re so funny, Sock. You love making baseless assumptions! TA: 2ure. you can go ahead and pretend iim wrong, doe2nt matter two me. TT: Nah, dude. You’re right about it, but I think it’s funny that you think I’m that unaware about my self when I’m the asshole who thinks talking to a clone of his brain is a worthwhile endeavor. TA: diid ii 2ay you were unaware. iif anythiing ii wa2 ju2t makiing iit clear that EVERYONE ii2 aware. TT: You certainly implied it, dude. TA: whatever you want two thiink ii iimpliied ii2 your bu2iine22. TT: Everyone’s aware, you think? Somehow that seems unlikely. TA: that2 what you would liike two thiink. but no ii thiink everyone 2ee2 how empty you are. who ii2 iit you talk two agaiin? TT: Why would I talk to anyone. TA: your braiin clone AII, who kiind of HA2 two talk two you becau2e you made hiim. he thiink2 youre 2hiit. TA: fii2h guy ii2 ju2t lookiing for a22. TT: HAL thinks I’m shit because I think I’m shit. What you like about him is literally an externalization of my and his self loathing. TT: You really think I give a shit about Cronus? TA: no. TA: iim makiing a broader poiint about how empty the iinteractiion2 you have told me about are. ii wa2 goiing two contiinue two 2ay that equiiu2 ii2 ju2t glad 2omeone ii2 lonely enough two put up wiith hii2 ca2te-ob2e22ed a22. TT: I don’t tell you about plenty of other interactions I have, dude. TA: and the fact that hal thiink2 you are 2hiit ii2nt what ii liike about hiim. ii thiink he ii2 decent two talk two. TA: uh huh. TT: But you know what? You’re right. It’s all empty and I really, really don’t care. TT: It’s not like I’d be a worthwhile person to connect to, as I’m sure you’re convinced of. TA: why not. TT: Are you genuinely asking me that. TA: no iim dii2iingenuou2ly a2kiing. TT: Disingenuous answer, then: I’m too much of a cuck. TA: lol. TT: Slaps self: this self can fit so much cuck energy in it. TA: yeah. iit wa2nt actually dii2iingenuou2 though. TT: Ah. TA: yeah. TT: Well, I mean the answer’s pretty clear, dude. I’m not a good person, which I assume is something of a prerequisite. But beyond that, I don’t have any interest in becoming a worthwhile person to interact with. TA: 2uck2 two 2uck. good thiing you have tho2e 2hade2 ii gue22. TT: Haha, yeah. TA: were you never a good per2on. TT: I don't know. TT: I don't think I'm the right person to ask. TA: who el2e would know 2omethiing liike that? TT: Me from the past, or something. TT: I highly doubt I was ever a good person, but I was a better person. Not that I deserve to improve anything. TA: yeah ok. TT: Yeah. TA: 2o. how doe2 that make you feel. TT: What does what make me feel. TA: the fact that you arent goiing two iimprove. TT: Even if I wanted to, I doubt I'd be able to. TT: I've come to terms with it. TA: that2 rough. TT: Is it? TA: yeah. TT: I guess. TA: fuck you. TT: Oh, using my words against me now? TA: fuck you. you 2uck. TT: What’s the problem, dude? Got nothing better or insightful to say, now? TA: whatever. TA: liike you 2aiid, you arent goiing two get better. 2o what2 the poiint of IIN2IIGHT. TT: Are you in a place to shit on me for not getting better. TA: iim ju2t 2ayiing. TT: I mean I’m stuck in circumstances that, by not being changeable, force me to continue being an empty distant fuck. Might as well accept it and give up, so that’s what I did. TA: yeah riight. who2 forciing you. TT: You know what, fuck it. I’ll tell you. Me trying to keep this a secret has been part of a whole effort not to seem as shitty as I really am. TT: I work for Crocker Corp, dude. I do a whole lot of what most sensible people would call morally obscene. Do you know what that means. Why in the fucking hell would I try to get close to people if that’s what I’m doing. TT: Sorry, rephrase. Why in the fucking hell would I be worth knowing if that’s what I’m doing. TA: lol. wow you 2uck. TA: 2o what 2tuff ii2 morally ob2cene. TT: I’m the leading developer of mind control technology, and it’s a job that, in its own sick way, is deeply fulfilling. TA: huh. TA: that2 fucked up. TT: Yeah, maybe. TT: Jane got me this job. TT: Not that she's probably aware of what this is actually about. TT: It's kind of funny. She saved my life, basically, and yet she singlehandedly made sure it'd be as miserable as roadkill being smeared all over the ground. TA: 2uck2 two 2uck. TT: Yeah, sure does! TA: you have two 2tay iin that job? TT: Yeah. TT: I mean, I know too much to be allowed to resign, basically, not to mention that if I hadn't agreed to the job, I'd be sitting in jail or dead or something worse. TA: why would you be iin jaiil or dead. TT: I tried to fuck some shit up with my robot selling. TA: huh. TT: Yeah. TA: youre 2hiit. TT: Yeah, I know, dude. TA: ok. but the fact that youre aware of iit ju2t make2 you more 2hiit. make2 you wor2e. TT: Yeah? TA: yeah OBVIIOU2LY. TT: Yeah. I know dude. TA: ok. fuck you. TT: I don't know how to tell you that I'm viscerally aware of whatever problem you might notice with my existence. TT: Current state of existence. Whatever. TT: But it's just not really on a level that matters anymore. TA: you fuckiing 2uck. ii already thought you were wretched and u2ele22 but youre even more of a wa2te of 2pace and oxygen than ii thought. TT: Hey, but the Empire values me, so maybe not, right? TA: 2hut the fuck up. TA: iidiiot.

#cyberstates #chatlog. #ask to tag -- #mind control mention -- #[ tldr: sock learns some Deep Dirk Secrets ]