#and of course this doesnt mean sanitization and woobification isnt a problem in the aftg fandom

[dayurno]

Hmm I definitely agree with most of your rant regarding neils ao3 characterization, with the idea that gay relationships can't be written as heteronormative, honestly especially if one of them is gender nonconforming, and I do think some of the dislike around his character can be from a place of transmisogyny. And people who ask for more masc4masc and fem4fem couples are a bit dumb. But I still have a bone to pick with his characterization on ao3 and I can't put my finger on whyyyy

Maybe, it's because (and I'm speaking about the state of the fandom back around 3??or 4?? Years ago when I would actively go through the tags and look for fanfiction and neil was my fave) it was always neil bottoming in every fic ever, no matter what character he was being shipped with in the fic, but like a lot of these fics or even the ones that weren't explicit would have something happen to him where he was the victim or he needed to be coddled and comforted by everyone else, and while I don't think neil is impervious and will never feel and inch of distress in his life, i can't help but think it's a bit ooc (not that there's anything wrong with ooc fic) and it's like neil can also be dangerous and has the capacity to hurt ppl and can be a dickhead but I don't think alot of fic back then showed that? They'd just call him sassy maybe he'd make a few quips and that's it. I think theres a lot of fics out there that wipe out his complexity ig. Maybe I just hate his characterization bc I wanna be a contrarion and I find his characterization boring if it's like that because you can find it in any fandom assigned bottom ever and ive seen it too much so i wanted to see a switch up or its more about his personality being written and less about being feminine and bottoming though i do think the ppl who write him being more feminine also tend to write his character a certain way. But like I also cant help but wonder where it comes from, like it's neil written like this and rarely ever andrew so

Back when I was younger I used to think people in fandoms would make the character who revieves the more feminine one, maybe it's bc it makes it easier to relate and project, or maybe it's bc it makes it easier to contend with a gay relationship if you can fit into like heteronormative boxes bc that's what's familiar to you and that's what you know and see everywhere, or maybe it is just people being fetishistic but now I don't know🤔 also I do think top neil or dom neil is just kinda fun like you said to me kandrew r more the type to have vanilla missionary sex their whole lives but neil would be more adventurous and willing to try new things, he also has cheek and audacity which is cute, like a puppy

Sorry this is so long, I've just thought about it before and has no one to discuss it with

no need to apologize i asked for opinions after all!!!!!!!

i see what you mean re: neil losing his edge, and i do think that it happens a lot with him because he is the protagonist and a prominent character in the vast majority of aftg fics, but i wouldn't say the same de-fanging process doesn't happen to andrew. the fandom has made it a point to soften all of andrew's edges; it's one of the most common bones people pick with nora that she never gives into the idea that andrew becomes a normal, well-adjusted, life-loving member of society post-canon. whether i enjoy andrew in a softer way or not is irrelevant, but i think this is definitely not a neil-only phenomena. i wouldn't even say it's really more pronounced when it's neil! i just think that helplessness, that lack of agency and bite, is a staple of most fandom content because it's self-indulgent and forces characters to act on their relationships by asking for and receiving help from their peers, whatever it might look like for each specific fandom

now i will say that i don't think that the process of making characters wholesome and ultimately consumable has anything to do with whether they are written as feminine or not; whether they are only in a receiving position or not. sexual preferences and gender presentations are inherently neutral: they don't say anything about a person's personality. i think neil bottoming being such a popular trope is just due to a natural consequence of how andrew and neil's relationship is presented in the books — andrew as someone who, at the point of where canon stops, physically cannot allow himself to be on the receiving end of any sexual act, and neil, who loves him and wants to help andrew to find pleasure in whatever way he can. it's the dynamic we're given in the original text, so it's what people tend to think about more.

of course i'm not saying it never overlaps with neil's excessive sanitizing and de-fanging, and it might as well be, for some people, that neil's acquiescence to andrew having control of what they do in bed is an entirely justifiable reason for writing him in a more feminine way. my opinion is, i think, just that that is not inherently immoral — that feminine people with those sexual preferences exist, and at times might even find that their gender presentation plays a big role in why they prefer to interact with sex the way they do. the history of femme pillow princesses in the lesbian community is vast, just as is the history of stone top butches. these minor niches don't imply that all feminine and masculine people must respectively bottom and top, but we do no one a favor by disregarding their experiences when they are a big part of how queer people do sex. i think we fall into old conservative myths when we moralize sexual preferences; i think we try to conform to cisheteronormative ideals when we deny gender presentations that are inherently tied to sex.

and just as a personal comment, i actually agree with you about neil being written as a perpetual, helpless victim and losing his agency. i don't enjoy it. i think it is born from indulgence, born from projection and wish fulfilment, but indulgence isn't immoral. projection and wish fulfilment aren't immoral, either. and, while i don't like the sanitization of aftg characters, i think it is less a character or fandom-specific issue and more of a material consequence of late stage capitalism; it's a symptom of a sickness that goes beyond our little constructed world, and one we should discuss, in my opinion, outside of the boundaries of fandom and individual guilt

i guess my tl;dr is that sometimes things are bad and we have to sit with their right to exist anyway. and my general tl;dr is that we help no one when we go out of our ways to condemn and criticize content where one of the characters is gender non-conforming because of said gender nonconformity. and, ultimately, that what we are missing is more fanfiction about kevin day in tiny tennis skirts

#asks #HAHA sorry but its true though. #i think we will move past this when we can admit to ourselves that sometimes we just dont like how characters are depicted #and of course this doesnt mean sanitization and woobification isnt a problem in the aftg fandom #it is and its annoying and it sucks but the solution to the bigger issue of media sanization and censorship is im quite sure #not in placing the guilt on individuals who have just as much of a choice in living under capitalism as you do #which of course is None #anyway as always im open to anyones opinions so long as youre respectful