#and he definitely wouldn't have put a very strong divide between his skill sets because like.

[roxynugget]

Guys, please, Tango doesn't consider himself a builder in the same way Michelangelo might not consider himself a painter* (see tags). You can accept you're very good at two things, and still consider yourself better at one over the other. It's not negative talk when he calls himself a redstone guy.

#tangotek #* Michelangelo was definitely good at painting but his preference was sculpture. Painting commissions were more frequent and profitable. #I don't know if this is the best example because it's difficult to parse exaggeration and fact #About historical figures in general especially artists and their personal feelings about their own art #and he definitely wouldn't have put a very strong divide between his skill sets because like. #You can see how much working and studying 3D space helped him create such life-like people in a 2D painting. #But I think Decked Out is a good example of harmony of skills too #The building part of game design and the coding part needed each other to create Decked Out 2 #My point here is #That we can't ask Michaelangelo if he considers himself a sculptor or painter #Because he's dead and also may not have an actual answer himself #But we can ask Tango! And he says he's a redstoner not a builder. And that's ok :) #Dear God this entire set of tags sounds like pretentious rambling but I'm gonna post it anyway bc I hope people see past me comparing #a beloved Renaissance artist to a Block Game Guy #and take time to reflect on how an artist might interpret themselves vs how their audience sees them thru the lense of their work.

[tigerlover16-uk]

If you’re open. For one, japanese polls show fans wanted Yamcha for the tournament. Super had filler mocking Yamcha as a loser who Gohan & Co try to prevent from learning of the tournament. The latest Herms translation on a Q&A for the Anime on why Yamcha wasn’t at the tournament, gave Goku's reason as he(Goku) thought little of Yamcha. I'd call that a dig, personally. If I was writing Super's I wouldn't do stuff things like that as they further divide, anger, or alienate the fandom for Super.

Hmm, okay I see your points there, and it’s understandable that Yamcha fans are upset.

Okay, for one thing though… how do you know the stuff with Yamcha in the saga isn’t Toriyama’s idea? The whole thing with him just expecting to be recruited and going home to wait seems more like an excuse to keep him out of the plot than a dig at the fans. And while I get taking issue with that idea… let’s think about it from a creative standpoint.

The tournament only has ten spots available. Extending the rosters to include more members would put a lot more work on Toriyama, Toyotaro and any other character designers at Toei to come up with that many more characters from other universes, of which this saga basically has close to a hundred new ones.

Each character is there for a reason. Goku and Vegeta can’t not be on the roster. Gohan’s been set up for his comeback for a while, and Piccolo can’t be passed up. Krillin is Goku’s best friend and the strongest earthling, so he has to be there. Android 18 is the only high tier action girl in the Z fighters, and Android 17 was brought back because he’s underdeveloped and hasn’t been seen since his cameo at the end of the Buu saga. So this was the perfect opportunity to use him, since this whole tournament setting benefits from teamwork between the warriors. Majin Buu was initially chosen to fill out a spot because he’s the most powerful non-saiyan. Master Roshi is on the roster because a running theme of this saga seems to involve experience and skill at fighting being often more valuable than raw power, and master Roshi is the wise old master character. He fits with that better than anyone else.

Tien is really the only one without a clearly definited role or reason for being here other than that he’s strong and fans love him. His role from what we’ve seen and the synopsis for the next episode seems to mainly be about supporting the other characters. A role Yamcha could have easily filled too, but then you’d have Tien fans angry that he was being excluded to service Yamcha, so either character gets the short end of the stick however that played out.

Frieza taking up Majin Buu’s spot seems to be a major plot point for the saga, because Toriyama wouldn’t bring him back again unless he has a good reason. But of course, Toei needed an excuse for why any other character couldn’t have been brought up by the Z fighters when Majin Buu started hibernating, because seriously, that’s a huge risk that’s not worth taking if there’s a better option.

Goten and Trunks were explained away because they’re too young, inexperienced and uncoordinated for this kind of tournament. Not unfounded, given how they handled fighting Majin Buu as Gotenks.

Yamcha though, he was an obvious back up choice for if one of the other characters couldn’t compete, and obviously viewers were going to notice that. And even if he wasn’t written as wanting to get back into fighting, he would never refuse such an offer knowing the universe was at stake.

So an excuse had to be made, since Toriyama wanted Frieza for some yet to be reached plot reason (Notice that character’s like Jaco weren’t even acknowledged and they skipped out on the chance to canonize Pikkon aswell, like some fans wanted).

And there was a way around it. Yamcha had already retired from fighting back at the Cell saga, Goku knows this by now and so wouldn’t expect Yamcha to still be in fighting shape by this time. Keep in mind, back in the Champa saga he initially turned down Vegeta’s suggestion to recruit Gohan, not because he thought he was a bad choice, but because he knew Gohan was rusty and not really a fighter anymore, and they needed someone who could already fight at their best for the tournament. As soon as Goku learned that Gohan had been training with Piccolo and he asked Goku if he could compete, Goku was more than okay with it until the conference thing came up.

Same thing probably would apply to Yamcha in this tournament. Goku didn’t even know who he wanted for the tenth member until Oolong told him Roshi was with Tien. He had no real reason to assume Yamcha would have wanted to join the roster, since he’d been out of fighting so long. And the only chance he would have got to recruit Yamcha was at Bulma’s place, and as soon as the tournament came up Yamcha was all like “Hey, I wanna join too!! But wait, maybe I should wait for them to ask me? Yeah, that’s it, I’ll go home and wait, then turn em down, and then make a grand entrance at the last minute”

It was silly and a bit weird since Yamcha’s not one for showboating usually (Though not necessarily above doing silly things), but it got him out of the way long enough for Goku to recruit a full team and then Frieza. It’s not clear if this whole situation was Toriyama’s or Toei’s idea, but Toriyama was definitely the one to decide the roster and who was going to do what in this saga. So he would have been responsible for Yamcha not competing anyway, so I wouldn’t put the situation above him. Heck, it feels like something he probably thought up on the spot while he was writing the outline, wrote it down real quick and didn’t too hard about it before handing it off to Toei and Toyotaro, who were stuck with it at that point. We’ll know for sure what exactly the situation is when the manga’s a bit further ahead and we see what Toyotaro’s excuse is. If it’s more or less exactly the same, then we can safely say it was Toriyama’s idea and thus not filler by Toei.

Also, where did Gohan or anyone try to hide that the tournament was happening from Yamcha or demean him over it. Goku and co mentioned the tournament was happening right in front of him, that’s what caused him to suddenly run off the way he did. No one ever said he couldn’t be in the tournament, nor did they mock him over it. They just didn’t think to ask him, because again, Goku and the others knew he was supposedly retired and thus didn’t immediately think of him as a candidate any more than they did Videl. Everyone acted pretty normally around him, the only exception being Vegeta showing annoyance when Bulla started crying, but the same thing had just happened when Mr Satan tried to make her laugh so that wasn’t anything against Yamcha. Just a throw away gag.

Oolong is the only character who tried to dance around the subject, and that was when Yamcha directly asked him if the others might recruit him after the roster had already been filled, and Oolong didn’t want to disappoint him. Otherwise, there’s no implication anybody would have turned him down or derided his fighting ability if he had just openly asked about the tournament when he had the chance. They didn’t think twice about having Yamcha play baseball with them, because they all knew he was great at that and he would have been the most useful person to help out.

It’s sad that Yamcha ended up screwing himself out of a place on the team, but that was more due to his own ego, not because any of the other characters thought badly about him. Nothing about his scenes really paints him as pathetic or a loser, just that he had gotten ahead of himself and made a silly mistake.

I don’t think this running gag was meant to deride or attack the character. Otherwise the writers would have had the characters openly mock him a lot more, turn him down when he asked, and have him end up feeling dejected. But he wasn’t especially upset at all when the others left to fight in the tournament. He was sheepish and embarrassed with himself when Puar expressed sympathy for him being left out, and he looked rightfully suspicious about Frieza, but he ultimately laughed it off as one of those things, and when everybody did leave he got serious for a moment and wished them luck, saying that they had to win. Which goes to show that Yamcha has his priorities straight and that the fate of the universe matters more than him getting a chance to strut his stuff.

This entire situation could have definitely been handled better and wasn’t a funny joke, but honestly I don’t get the feeling that Yamcha was being intentionally derided or mocked by the writers. If anything, the joke seems to be that he could have probably avoided the situation he made for himself and got what he wanted if he stopped being silly and just asked Goku directly if he could be on the team. Which, again, dumb joke. Not necessarily an attack at the character, or his fans.

The thing with the Q & A sounds suspicious, I agree, and I can’t really say too much without knowing the full context. It could be just the one person doing the interview giving it his own two cents and not really talking for Toriyama or the writing staff, in which case shame on him. Or maybe the intention was lost, and he’s just meaning that in the sense that Goku didn’t think of Yamcha because he’s been out of the game so long that he’s probably very out of shape, similar to his reasoning with Gohan for the U6 tournament. Which, that’s not too bad, though not exactly fair on Yamcha either. I dunno, feel free to be annoyed with that one.

I get being upset with how Yamcha’s been treated. I’m not really happy with it either, I’d love to see more done with Yamcha because I do love his character, I’m just not offended or angry because I don’t think there’s any intentional disrespect towards him. Just that the writers aren’t sure what to do with his character, since Toriyama clearly isn’t giving them anything for him to do in the main stories. Which, yeah that’s not a good excuse, but it’s one I can live with, and it’s what feels like the case rather than them having it out for the guy.

It’s good to hear that Japanese fans wanted more of Yamcha. Maybe that’ll encourage Toei to push Toriyama to do something with him in the future, or maybe give him his own story’s or character arc in a breather episode or two after this saga wraps up. Maybe finally give him a girlfriend that doesn’t treat him like Bulma did. For all we know, Toei and Toriyama might just not have considered that he had so much support while planning the saga.

Although, a lot of Western fans wanted Cell on the roster instead of Frieza, and that wouldn’t necessarily have been for the better in terms of the story. Sometimes what fans want isn’t always going to be in the best interests of the story. We already had two characters, Krillin and Gohan, who’s had to have character arcs developed about them wanting to pick up martial arts again and get stronger leading into and during the current saga, three if you count Master Roshi given his interaction with Ganos in today’s episode and the “secret training” he’s apparently been doing for a while for years now to be able to fight fairly in the tournament of power.

Having the last remaining character besides Videl who had given up being a martial artist and more active member of the Z fighters, and that might start feeling redundant or pushing things too far, having so many characters suddenly getting stronger again so soon to the level that they can seriously compete with the warriors from the other universes. I mean, look around at how many people are outright angry for some reason that Krillin was able to put up any kind of fight against people at all.

And none of this is to say that leaving Yamcha out and have him play so little a role in Super so far is justified or that you can’t be disappointed and annoyed over it as a fan of the character, or how it’s been handled. Feel free to do so. And you have a point being concerned that this might make the divides in the fandom even worse, though that’s more down to the idiots in the fandom being stupid and fueling their own confirmation biases than anything. Same reason I don’t truly hate TFS for the problems they’ve caused, because at least several members like Kaiserneko acknowledge their bad influence and they never meant to create such levels of toxicity in the fandom. Careless fans who can’t understand that something is a parody are responsible for that.

you have a right to be mad. But personally, I don’t think any of these things are intentionally digs at fans so much as they are ignorance on Toei’s part. Who knows, maybe Toriyama actually has a plan and this thing with Yamcha this saga is actually leading to something down the line, won’t know until we’re a lot further into Super. Things could improve, but it is frustrating the way things are going so far and I don’t blame you for being in a bad mood.

I don’t think the situation’s as bad as you do, but then again maybe I’m just not as passionate about Yamcha as you are and I see things from a different perspective. This is all I can really say on the subject, I’m sure I can’t really do much to change your mind and you do have some good points and reasons to feel the way you do.

Let’s both just hope that things start looking up for Yamcha in the future, and that Toyotaro doesn’t actually have the characters directly insult Yamcha for wanting to compete or something like that when he gets further ahead in the manga. Because honestly with his writing, I wouldn’t put it past him to do exactly what you think the anime is doing.