#In that the narrative treats her so grossly that it's hard to actually feel anything for her as a character

[themidnightcircusshow]

Not the person who sent you the X/TB question, but I loved reading your answer! I agree with it, even though I also adore X (it's clearly a flawed story). I have to say that a lot of people aggressively love Kotori in reaction to her mistreatment by the plot. I've been in the Clamp/X-TB fandom in the aughts, and it was super common to hate on her for being a weak, traditionally feminine character that 'got in between' the insanely popular ship. The poor writing certainly didn't help. 1/?

Nowadays, people are aware of the issues with Kotori's poor writing but decide to defend her instead of bashing her. She has good qualities and IRL would be a lovely person... too bad that, as you say, Clamp wrote her as a LI/fridged woman. BTW, the indigo painting thing was anime only. Speaking of anime, do you think that it's ending was based on what Clamp planned for the manga? In the anime Kamui becomes a part of Fuma (AFAIR) so that both the world and Fuma continue to exist. BTW IDK if you have it (and sorry if you do and I haven't looked yet), but I would love to read your top 20, or even just top 10 of Clamp characters! You write great Clamp meta. 3/3

I was in the fandom in the 00s too, but my corner wasn’t very interested in Kotori or Fuuma so I never really saw any bashing and more just... complete lack of interest lol. I can see how she got a lot of hate (tale as old as time-- canon love interest of popular slash ship) but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I kind of feel bad because I hate how she’s written, not what she’s written to be (if that makes sense), but dammit CLAMP has proven time and time again that they can write characters who are both sweethearts and interesting (*points to the clones in TRC* *points to the entire existence of CCS* *points to Sumeragi freaking Subaru, and Yuzuriha, and other characters in the same work who manage to be both nice and compelling*). It’s a case of where is the line between the character and what the writers did with the character, y’know? Which sucks coz I like sweet, stereotypically feminine characters, but everything CLAMP did with Kotori genuinely pushes my buttons (which is why I get a bit borderline aggressive with this topic, sorry... I’m always like oh this feels mean but also flames, flames on the side of my face).

About the X anime ending, I know CLAMP have said that it wasn’t what they planned and I think it’s not exactly what they planned (CLAMP would never have done that to Subaru), but I wouldn’t be surprised if some elements were there. Largely, like I said, I would be willing to bet (not a lot, but some) money that CLAMP originally intended to have Kamui die to bring back Fuuma because that happened in TRC. I’m going to assume Sorata and Arashi were going to be pretty similar to the anime too. Other than that I’m really not sure. Everything CLAMP has said about the ending they’ve planned for X makes me kind of nervous because (again, will write the meta one day) I think X needs to have a happy ending.

And on that bombshell...

Ok, top characters of CLAMP:

1) Sumeragi Subaru (literally my favourite character in all of fiction, everyone give him a little crown) 2) Clone Syaoran (used to be my ultimate fave before I found Subaru, and also CLAMP totally screwed up his character arc with that ending, but I still love him so very very much)

Interchangeable based on my mood: 3) Watanuki Kimihiro (is me) 4) Yuuko Ichihara 5) Sakurazuka Seishirou 6) Clone Sakura 7) Sumeragi Hokuto 8) The Mokonas

Also interchangeable based on my mood but not able to crack the above group: 9) Kinomoto Sakura (was my genuine idol as a child) 10) Li Syaoran (my grumpy son)

(I tried to do top 20 but the bottom 10 was just a mess and lbh all their butts could be kicked by the various xxxHOLIC fox spirits)

#Asked and Answered #Seronility #Meilin would go in the above but she's anime only #And some characters I like in the group but not so much on their own #Also if it helps my feelings on Kotori are kinda similar to my feelings on R!Sakura #In that the narrative treats her so grossly that it's hard to actually feel anything for her as a character #But R!Sakura we at least have a vague idea of her personality based on her counterparts #I think I just don't like the dreamseers in X it's an interesting concept but I didn't like how any of them were done #But I'm in full support of spite-stanning especially female characters who get unjustified hate #So if you all want to defend Kotori til the ends of the earth then power to you #I'm going to be defending the clones... probably from similar arguments #Honestly considering what kind of place CLAMP and general anime fandom was back in the 00s how the heck did Subaru get almost no hate #He practically was tailor made to be everything everyone hated and instead I've seen like two hate posts in my entire fandom history

[deborahdeshoftim5779]

Responses- The Marvel of Trelsi (Part VIII)

By BoltonEvans post here. 

Believe me, I’m in the same boat as far as my OTP goes. While there is a bit more of a variety of fanfiction to explore, the majority of it is grossly out of character (self-loathing homophobic asshole Troy, and Ryan with Sharpay’s personality who refers to Troy as “Bolton” are everywhere), and resort to using extreme traumatic scenarios, such as rape, for cheap drama.

I used to be in another fandom where the homosexual ships involved exploitation of rape as a plot device, which is quite frankly disgraceful. As for Troy being “homophobic”... Is that why he decided to make friends with the most flamboyantly gay... Oh, never mind. I truly believe so many fans were watching a different film altogether. 

Even worse, I’m the only person still actively writing for my ship, these days, with the very rare exception cropping up and taking me by surprise every couple of months, or so. It’s a very sad state of affairs.

Sad, indeed. They have far more in common: 1)- A love of the Performing Arts and corresponding commitment, 2)- Strong work ethic, 3)- Kindness, generosity and thoughtfulness, 4)- Humour. The honest viewer doesn’t need to ship them to see this. Gabriella by comparison only meets ONE of the above criteria-- being a hard worker, and that only relates to her academic pursuits. When it comes to Troy or Ryan’s hard work, she’s happy to flush that down the toilet when it doesn’t suit her. (She’s also happy to play the two against each other to get emotional revenge, which is obnoxious). 

A few more notes/additions, because I’m both obnoxious, and incorrigible:

- My Tryan bias results in my perspective of Troy seeking Sharpay out and agreeing to perform with her and save her “sinking ship” of a talent show only if she also allows the Wildcats to perform, revolving around Ryan persuading him to do so. Troy was hellbent on dropping out of the show and resuming kitchen duty as a show of solidarity with his friends. It was only because of Ryan that he ultimately changed his mind. So, even though Troy absolutely does uphold his commitments (he is a textbook people pleaser, after all), I view that instance as the one exception where Troy had to be talked into keeping a promise. Thankfully, it was by someone who was actually looking out for him, for once.

That’s a good point. Thanks for pointing this out. 

- One minor correction: Gabriella transfers to East High after the new year begins. In the American school system, this would be the start of the second semester, or halfway through the school year, and it’s questionable just when, exactly, she and Troy began officially dating after the events of the first film. In all likeliness, she and Troy dated for about half of their junior year, broke up several weeks into summer vacation, got back together (after Troy was willing to throw an opportunity for a scholarship out the window because of Gabriella’s reaction to him prioritizing his future over giving her a summer worthy of remembering), managed to stay together for most of senior year, then broke up, again, when Gabriella unceremoniously and callously dumped Troy over the phone a week before the year was out.

Correction noted, thanks. 

“When Troy tries to show her a golf course in HSM II, she tells him “I don’t play golf”, which is harmless enough. But given that she should have known by then that her boyfriend was on the school’s Golf Team, it would have reflected better on their relationship had Gabriella taken an interest in his golfing, whether she liked it or not. Particularly since Gabriella was later bitter that Troy didn’t ask HER opinion on the much-derided “Italian golf shoes”. If she doesn’t play golf, why does she care?"

This is a brilliant point, even though I believe that Gabriella telling Troy that she doesn���t play golf when he was obviously setting up a date (since he’s the sole half of the relationship tasked with planning every single date they go on), was rude. I’m assuming that Gabriella, contrary to what sense and logic would dictate, doesn’t take any real interest in Troy’s golfing because it was nothing more than a plot point for the sake of the narrative in the second movie, and never comes up, again, afterward. Her general apathy toward him is also a factor, though, of course.

I also want to add that, as far as their lack of a “common thread” goes;

-Gabriella seems unable to commiserate with Troy’s financial woes, and, indeed, never expresses a single concern about how she’s going to afford her own college tuition- another disparity.  

Oh, this is a VERY good point. Thanks for noting this one. Contrary to what popular romances like to claim, financial disparities can often harm a relationship, with the lesser fortunate partner feeling inadequate (particularly if they are a man) and yet steadfastly refusing any financial assistance. In Troy’s case, he never envies Gabriella’s financial position or asks for anything from her (although she bums freebies off him ALL the time), and expects to resolve all his financial issues himself through hard work and personal responsibility. This is one of the things I really like about him. However, his flaw of worrying so much also comes to light, which is where, as you say, Gabriella comforting him at the very least would have helped somewhat. Of course, what she ACTUALLY says is that they should “focus on right now”-- in other words, herself. 

Whenever Gabriella pulls attention away from his relatable issues and back to her own First World Problems, I tend to think this would have the psychological effect of making Troy feel as though he were complaining too much, if that makes sense? Because he always invests SO much in alleviating Gabriella’s worries whilst sidelining his own. So he would be internalizing a LOT of anxiety, which is extremely unhealthy. In conjunction with the fact that Gabriella makes him feel and look like a toddler in their relationship, his financial woes would make him feel even more inadequate for her as a partner. When his truck breaks down whilst he takes her home, he looks embarrassed, even though the reason is perfectly normal: he needs a new fuel pump. But it’s almost as though he anticipates her mockery, which makes me think that she regularly mocks him when things go wrong-- even if those things went wrong due to circumstances beyond his control. And let’s not forget the fact that he feels so obliged to impress Gabriella by spending his own limited resources on her, even though she can clearly afford to not only provide for herself, but also do nice things for him. What was stopping Gabriella from buying herself a pizza and inviting Troy round for once? Why couldn’t she pay for dinner and a movie sometimes? Why couldn’t she use her mother’s car or help buy her own, since she clearly has the money? Why, as you have already said, could she not help Troy out with his truck woes? (As I’ve said, I’m almost POSITIVE that she would have gotten irritated with him on the ride back from California, because his truck is unreliable. She has no concern for anything that troubles him. I bet she didn’t help pay for petrol, either). He eventually spends/borrows money to attend Berkeley for reasons beyond my humble comprehension. 

It’s very unhealthy and Gabriella’s lack of sympathy makes it even worse. 

-Gabriella’s bedroom decor, behavior, and wardrobe choices suggest a childlike innocence to her personality, and she talks about wanting things to be "like Kindergarten”, but, as you mentioned, she pokes fun at Troy for holding onto boyhood playthings. Watch her face when Troy takes Robo-Rob from her, worrying that she’ll break the toy robot.

That doesn’t strike me as the face of a girl who finds her boyfriend’s dorkiness and sentimentality for an aspect of his childhood endearing. That’s the face you pull when a person says or does something crazy and you’re trying to wrap your head around it.

You seem to have all the right gifs! Christ. There’s rarely ever any genuine affection in her eyes when she’s around Troy, as I will discuss later. Maybe in HSM I with the rooftop scene, we saw some genuine affection as she was opening up to Troy. That vanished not long later after the webcam stunt, in which her expression was NOT hurt/disappointed, but cold and almost hostile. (Maybe she didn’t want to appear weak or hurt by his words, given that she DID shed tears earlier). And yes, the hypocrisy is staggering in the way she treats Troy’s childhood interests. 

-Troy knows his future is coming at him full steam ahead, and even though he has no idea what he wants to do, after high school, and is “being pulled in a hundred different directions”, he acknowledges, “We’re going to graduate. That’s going to happen. Nothing is going to slow down”… while Gabriella laments, right in front of him, life not grinding to a standstill, just for her, so she never has to leave East High. This suggests not just a disparity in priorities, but in maturity levels, as well; something that would have caused an eventual rift between a real life couple that nothing could have patched up.

Absolutely. 

Imagine, years down the road- if they managed to stay together- Troy fretting over steadily accumulating bills and taxes while Gabriella rolls her eyes and tells him to just push for a promotion at work. Then, imagine Gabriella finding out that the electric bill hasn’t been paid and their electricity is about to be shut off. Do you think she’d take a stressed out Troy aside and promise to find a way to get them out of this rut, or angrily confront him and demand to know why the bill hasn’t been paid and if he wants them out on the street?

Shaking with laughter! :D Please God, let it not get this far! 

Imagine how Gabriella would respond if Troy sustained an injury, in college, that ruined his shot at a career in professional basketball, or if he got laid off from his job. Do you really think she’d stay by his side and try to work things out? Or, do you think Troy would come home to find the engagement ring he put his entire salary toward, sitting on the kitchen table beside a note from Gabriella explaining that she “can’t do this, anymore”?

That dialogue... :D That is JUST what Gabriella would say. I’m laughing because of the sheer irony. We are told that this couple represent “Relationship Goals”... I just can’t! *wipes eyes*

Based on everything I’ve seen in canon, I heavily lean toward the latter.

The Wail Fest in HSM II epitomises Gabriella’s philosophy in a nutshell: “I gotta do what’s best for ME.” She really knows how to play the scorned lover in every one of her Wail Fests. What’s even more insulting in this song is when she sings, “You’ll be okay!” This is AFTER she: 1)- quit the job he secured on her behalf, 2)- mocked and derided him for his promotions, 3)- flirted with Ryan to manipulate his emotions, 4)- dumped him, 5)- and eventually rejected his necklace. She has some audacity! Every time she is about to drop kick him, she constantly makes the presumption that he will understand her behaviour: (HSM I)- “You’ve got your team, and I’ve got mine. It’s WHERE WE BELONG.”, (HSM II)- “I just don’t belong here, I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND”, (HSM III)- “I can’t be a little adult right now, Troy. I’m hoping you’ll understand that.” It makes me sputter with rage. Meanwhile, when it comes to HER turn to show some understanding in the following situations: (HSM I)- When Troy is clearly being pressured to avoid the Musicals, (HSM II)- When Troy is under pressure from Sharpay’s harassment and his fast rise to fame, (HSM III)- When Troy is worried about his future--- hey, what do you know? Her “understanding” vanishes. It’s like she never heard of the word. 

*angry sigh*

I’ll discuss more of this in later posts. If you don’t mind, I’ll add some things you’ve said here. (Giving credit, obviously). 

Thanks for the responses! 

#Trelsi #BoltonEvans #Responses #TheseAreGreat #Playmakers #LiterallyTroyAndKelsiForever