#Arturia said that!! Dude tRUST ME

[coe-lilium]

Would you be willing to rank the major Apocrypha characters (Masters and Servants) from best to worst? I'm curious as to how you would rank them

Gladly :D

Be warned that this will be 90% tastes and maybe 10% narrative/objective analysis. And sorry for taking so long to answer. Also, it got long ^^’

A concise, condensed ver before the cut

- 10+/10, tie between Mordred, Jeanne e Shirou

-  9.5/10: Semirams and Shishigou Kairi

- 8-7.5/10: Vlad, Achilles, Shakespeare, Caules 

- 7: Chiron, Fran, Atalanta, Karna, Fiore, Darnic

- 6, I start not caring: Gordes

- “wasted” and “still bitter after 5 years”, no numbers: Avicebron and Siegfried

- 5-4, it’s complicated: Astolfo

- 4: Sieg (and it might go down to 0, I’m serious)

- 3 to 0: Jack, Reika, Celenike 

Btw, I kept them vague, but spoilers/hints up to vol4 and 5

Rank “will fight the world for them, forever in Higashide’s debt, I wish one day for Nasu to write them himself because I trust the mushroom man to make me love them even more than I already do, 10+/10″: 

Mordred: SHE. Higashide’s best accomplishment in winning me over no matter other flaws. Tie with Gilgamesh as my favorite Nasuverse character ever.

There isn’t a single thing I don’t love about her (bar that atrocious “dress” under the armor, delete that). The armored and casual character design. The backstory as abused and exploited child who tries to break free of her mother influence and plots but ends up following them anyway because of her other parent rejection and, ultimately, how Morgan life lasting damage could not be undone without support. Her snarky, bratty, selfish and ferocious personality she show to the outside world and the hidden insecurities, the good heart and the ability to reflect on her flaws. Her loyalty and her desperate need for parental love and recognition as her own person. Her fighting style that is a delight to read or watch, truly a beast. Her chemistry and relationship with Shishigou, all of it. How it start in that cemetery, how develops over the course of the story, how she manage to open, connect and trust him and ultimately find a real father in him.

If I have to find a “wish this was expanded on” is her written in but not recognised by canon issues with gender/presentation which wasn’t a real issue for me until I read metas here and I’m now quite confused especially on how to write her (him?) in the future, when I’ll hopefully get at it.

The only reason I don’t completely wish for her and her Master to have been made MCs is the love I have for the following two guys and this couple steal too much of a spotlight from other characters.

Still, while theirs is a story more focused on personal growth and healing then deciding the fate of a great number of people or the world, in the end Mordred and Kairi saved each other so it could’ve still meshed neatly with the overall salvation theme. Sadly it was not meant to be but I’m more than content for what we got.

Jeanne: She. Who gets only second place and no caps lock because, a surprisingly good portrayal none withstanding, she could’ve been even better had Higashide done a bit more research (in his favour, I don’t know what kind of books on her are translated in Japanese and if the processes transcripts are among them).

For example I’ll forever maintain that, while the whole “romance” thing has a historical base (funny that, uh?), it required a way better realisation and as it’s written in Apocrypha does her character a disservice. Laeticia too, who was a potentially interesting “device” and could’ve been our outsider perspective, got derailed into more nonsense romance and aww poor Sieg and oh man, who-gives-a-damn: not me.

Also, not enough of a sarcastic spitfire or military prowess (“just waved the flag”, now that’s a funny way to write “half of Charles’ court was impressed by how good she was with every damn weapon”) for my tastes but I guess historical Jeanne is just that irreplaceable or TM chose to emphasise her piety and “sainthood” over other traits in order to avoid an Arturia 2.0.

Not a single mention to her mentors either, in 5 volumes (which is bad, extremely bad, Higashide why) and too much of Gilles de Rais nonsense but unfortunately Type Moon is committed to roll with it. Dunois, La Hire and d’Alencon never, poor me. 

That said, Fate!Jeanne is really a good interpretation, firmly rooted in history and I love, love her. 

Her faith and lack of hate are spot-on and are treated with respect instead of mocked. 

She’s allowed to have a no-nonsense and even ruthless soldier like attitude, a protective streak (which always remind me of that promise she made to a young noblewoman to keep her husband safe and bring him back to her, or how she took care of her young squire. Both survived her) and loth of empathy at the same time. 

She’s down to earth but can also be immature and have flaws and be tempted. 

This post is already long as it is, so here’s some more reasons I love Apo Jeanne: 

Novel Jeanne musing 1       

Jeanne meta from the manga 1

Jeanne meta from the manga 2

My eternal greatest disappointment will forever be the lack of a satisfying confrontation with Shirou. You write someone able to shake Jeanne d’Arc convictions, make her doubt her conduct and moral standing when the threat of torture and the Rouen process weren’t able do so... and you don’t follow on it? Unforgivable.   

Shirou: This guy. This absolute mess of a human being. I need more and no, GO, “evil alternative self” isn’t what I mean (but yeah, gimme him too). After discovering him in Apocrypha I started digging my university library to hunt down his IRL self story and there is no higher accomplishment for a Fateverse character for me.                                                                                    Fascinating person and fascinating take by TM, double so since I discovered dude’s still being vilified in contemporary Jp stories/entertainment and man do that enrage me.

It’s like someone mixed up a character I love (Kirei), one I loathe (Kiritsugu), shaked it and the result it’s the best possible one I could ask for. 

I like the character design (both), the historical and post 3HGW backstory and how it shaped him into a Jeanne opposite (for excellent reasons), the most “Kotomine” traits like the snark and trollish attitude and how they cover all the suffering, despair and hate boiling under the constant smirk. How Higashide avoided the “turned evil” interpretation that’s prevalent in jp entertainment and made him a good person and a hero, if a misguided one and also the trapping of a “void/hollow inside” personality and instead gave him those fragments where you see he’s still a 17yo kid. 

He’s not just interesting, he’s funny to read, even with all the angst going on.  

The interactions with Shakespeare are great and... his relationship with Semiramis. Man, that’s excellent, excellent stuff. Can’t gush enough about how much I love them together

My only great complaint -for now, until I see a certain late discovery with my own eyes- is that all the narrative build up and comparisons between him and Jeanne (done in-universe and acknowledged within the text mind you, I’m not headcanoning here) went wasted. 

How can you write two characters who mirror each other so perfectly, put them as “head” of their factions, in the same role both... and not deliver with a confrontation? The only thing that tried to do so was -ironically- the anime in ep #13, as their confrontation in the novels wasn’t as personal and as good as the anime.      

Rank “good, excellent civilisation, never get tired of them”, 9.5/10

Shishigou: best father ever, 100% should legally adopt Mordred. He was/is extremely enjoyable to read about, snarky, smart, his fucked-up magus backstory had long lasting effects but managed not to destroy him, on the outside your tough, broody mercenary making hard decision but actually a good, moral person with a caring nature and, again, a great father. 

As already said, his and Mordred narrative is less tied to the different views of salvation theme and more to the “people making their wishes come true” and they’re bit of outliers for the whole duration of the story but I wouldn’t change a thing (except one T_T). 

His relationship with Mordred is one of the absolute highlights of Apocrypha for me, in every medium.

Semiramis: shallow reason first: charming, scheming, hot asshole-ish royalty in league with a Kotomine troll, what more could’ve I asked for?                        That she was an interesting char in her own right, which is what I got.          

More in-depth, she’s another character I never have enough of. Begrudging sole responsible adult of red team, I couldn’t help but grin every time she had to deal with AKA team or single members, not to speak of her scenes with Shakespeare, which are both amusing and very good for characterisation. 

She may not have that much of screen time compared to other faves but earned her place by making what she had memorable. 

Her backstory is simple: abandoned child learns to exploit her society view on women to rise to the top and get everything she wants and fuck everything else. Which not only neatly establish how and why she became what she is but also why this broken kid, which is a sort of her exact opposite, fascinate her so much. 

Speaking about our broken resident Kotomine, her chemistry with Shirou is simply great, all of their scenes are a joy to read. They have fun plotting together, they (she, dude’s either too young to notice or just let it go) casually flirts, have a functioning, mostly open relationship from the get-go that works no matter how messed up they really are and get each other’s back until the very end. Most of the more lighthearted stuff is in vol 1-2, then things gets more interesting. 

See, as much as she seems to be (and like to present herself as such to enemies) the perfectly devoted Servant and is aiding Shirou… she’s also truly villainous, cold and ruthless as hell and is also very conflicted and switch back and forth on what she wants, not much as out of the War as instead from her Master in particular (don’t think bad… okay, do) for the whole series. Vol3 and 4 are a godsend for her character and you dunno how I wish we had more than a bare bone summary for vol 5 because god damn some things in that summary. 

With the many, many stay night or Zero parallels and homages in Apocrypha, she come off as a sort of reverse Zero Gilgamesh and Gilles in being, respectively, the devilish member of the  Kotomine - Servant pair and the “personal involvement/interest in the saint figure, sometimes verging on the creep-ish, predatory behaviour" one (Gilles was 100% full on creepy mode, Semiramis keeps her thoughts for herself and is just tempted. I strongly appreciate), “reverse” for being conflicted, but in the end being a better person than both dudes above and respecting and knowing her partner enough to let go of her worst desires/frustrations. There’s some really good stuff in these two’s relationship, let me tell you. 

If Mordred-Shishigou take the cake for best platonic relationship in Apo, Semiramis and Shirou single handy destroy every competition for the romantic one. 

Rank “You. I like you”, 8-7.5/10

Vlad: here’s someone I’m pretty content with how he’s written (I wouldn’t change a thing), but really wish had had more space just because I enjoyed him a lot. Higashide nailed him and I wanted more of a historical Vlad III who is a hero, a good ruler caring for his country and a ruthless warrior and executioner and none of this aspects negate the others. Plus, it was refreshing to see a Vlad III being so clearly separated from the “vampire” twist that his wish for the Grail was to erase book and legacy from existence.

Achilles: a simil Alexander, I dislike the IRL/myth dude but can’t stay mad with their Fate incarnations. I like his personality, his quirks, his relationships with Chiron and Atalanta. Loved the mocking duel (and the anime committee will hear me scream from the other side of the world if I get robbed of it  yeah, I wrote this part before ep17. Fuck you A1). 

I don’t even think he needed more screen time, he’s really fine with what’s shown. Not every character need to be a main one and Achilles manage to be a good secondary one, with enough development and characterisation.

Shakespeare: here’s an enjoyable dude I like to hate. Amusing character, his interactions with Semiramis and Shirou are a joy to read or watch, but, fuck this guy. May Moriarty and Saber Gilles have their way with you in Chaldea.

Caules: one of those rare beasts known as “perfectly functioning siblings” of the Nasuverese. Respect his Servant and tries to do her right till the end. A good dude.

Rank “could’ve shined more in a longer and more focused series, but okay” aka those who served their purpose, 7/10 

Chiron                                                                                                            Atalanta                                                                                                          Karna                                                                                                                Fran                                                                                                                  Fiore                                                                                                                Darnic

Not really anything to say about each one here. They’re fine as they are.            

Could’ve used more Darnic, the 3HGW is a fascinating subject no matter who the Einzbern decide to summon and his actions shaped the whole world of Apo. Personally I’d have cut the Jack business and expanded him as a character/treat, maybe to shed light into CT politics and magus society fuckery (because if there’s something the Yggdmillennia as a whole and each one of them in particular show is how the magi society is an aberration that twist and corrupt everything it touch). But in the end I know it was either Ygg vs CT as promised or Rulers against each other and I’ll gladly take the latter.  A longer series could’ve had space for both, who knows.

Rank “nice arc. There are more interesting people but I’ve come to appreciate you” 

Gordes: Probably the human character who experience more growth in the series.

Rank “wasted” and “decent what little is there, perhaps, but still bitter after five years”

Avicebron: also know as the poor thing similar to the antagonist in background and wish that could’ve worked with the themes while also being a personal foil to the protagonist in being a golem/artificial life creator and user but the writer couldn’t/wouldn’t bother with him for some reason and he only got to be the “Gilles de Rais summon Chtlulu and heroes have to team up to bring him down” of Apocrypha, with no other purpose than being a Zero “homage”. 

To add insult to injury, the Adam threat does literally jack shit on a narrative point because “Servant goes stray and threaten the world, Servants form both factions have to team up to defeat him” already happened, 2 episodes before for the anime, end of vol2 vs beginning of vol3 for the novel version. And Mordred and Shishigou making an alliance with the surviving Black members was already going to be a thing after the Gardens mess. Shame, shame and shame.

Siegfried:  tainbocuailnge here has written some good meta about him lately and, yeah, perhaps all of that was intended, and I can kinda appreciate it. The point is that I couldn’t give a single crap over the OC when for him to come into being means sacrificing freaking Siegfried. I may not have read as much or being already attached to the literature/epic character like other cases but… no, just no. Siegfried deserved way better than what he got in Type Moon. 

Add more personal bitterness because with such numbers I thought it was finally time for the Heroes to shine and for the Masters to be sidelined and instead we got super special super powered MC. To hell with it.  

If anything, Siegfried may be the only character the anime did more good than damage. He’s still there and sometimes get to act as a mentor instead of being a useful power up and then fucking off for the remaining 4 volumes.

Rank “I tried to like you, I wish I could like you, but I cannot stand you no matter what”, 5-4

Astolfo: I’ve tried to like him but to no avail (rest assured, though, that I’ll deck anyone who’ll try use that t*ap or “girl” bullshit). 

It has to be that unholy combination of extremely airhead personality and mannerism, all the screen time he gets that could’ve gone to my favourites, that idiotic attempt at a “love triangle” (for the love of God, Higashide) and a voice acting that, I swear, even if I already didn’t like him from the novel the anime would’ve been the nail in the coffin. All these combined make him grates on my nerves like few other Fate characters. Perhaps part of my distaste comes from being unable to shake the feeling that the author himself don’t respect him.

I realise it’s quite… unfair, because on the page he has everything I usually like: he’s brave, he’s kind, he has morals and will maintain them in front of everything, he stand up to assholes, he save and inspire people, you can overpower him as much as you like and he still won’t care and will still fight you. 

Astolfo is a good, decently written character and I really wish the franchise would just stop using him as a joke and stop being so gross to him in order to cater to even more gross “fans”. 

If I were to put tastes/guts feelings aside, I could praise him for pages. I simply can’t bring myself closing the gaps from appreciating the undeniable qualities to actually like the character. 

Rank: fluctuating between “your concept should’ve been handled by a more experienced narrator” and “goddamn, does your very existence piss me off”, pending more on the second as we go on, less than 4

Sieg: on the page kid’s got a good arc. An homunculus, a magus’s tool, trash to be used and disposed off, gains consciousness and, shaped by what he witness and the actions and sacrifices of heroic figures, rise to free his kin from their slavers and then find himself fighting to “save the world”. How he attained freedom and have come to interpret it and his experiences put him in the path of the antagonist and the two and their “ideologies” makes for an interesting double face of the coin, forced salvation vs free offer and answer to actual prayers. Sounds pretty great. 

Unfortunately, Higashide aimed too high for his skills or didn’t learn well from Nasu and Shirou Emiya, or both. 

Otakus mad because he “got the waifu” aside, Sieg do come across as too damn lucky and overpowered and there is a limit on how much the in-universe reason “damn, the Counter Force had to work hard to give him a chance to stop a Heroic Spirit with hundreds time his experience” can go before the readers start getting annoyed at Heroes dropping dead or getting sidelined just to push him forward. 

I’m not a fan of these buzzwords, but the impression he’s a fan fiction OC that force the original and more interesting cast to revolve around/sacrifice for him or hijack their plots is damn strong. Scrap it, it’s not an impression, it’s exactly what happen. In at least 4 or 5 cases. 

There were also too many times he bore me to death so not really what you want from your protagonist. 

Another thing, more grave than personal preferences: his wish/fight firstly go nowhere, then get resolved too quickly without a fuss and then, once his goal has been effortlessly achieved, he proceeds to tag along and stole duels and confrontations from other characters, on which he had no stakes nor reason to be. What kind of writing is this?! He get the contract with Astolfo, walks in the castle and the Yggd agree on releasing the homunculi. And that’s it. Wow?

Also here’s my 100% personal reason for not having an ounce of interest in Sieg, godly writing skills or not: for once, just once, we could’ve got our first Fate solo female protagonist. An all-around badass but, at the same time, not an Arturia nor Shiki nor Arc nor Aoko clone. Who just happened to be my favourite historical figure ever.

Could’ve kept the same theme of opposing concepts of salvation, brought the Ruler vs Ruler/Saint vs Saint thing in the spotlight, with all their nice baggage of similar lives resulting in  opposite views by different regrets and traumas, faith or lack (that instead got all swept under the rug, and man if the self awareness of vol4 isn’t something to behold) and after five years I still feel personally robbed of all of this, especially when it became clear Apocrypha was yet another “male protagonist with the world revolving around him while the female heroine gets to be his support/sidekick. Oh, and as already said, he get the confrontation with whom the narrative builds as her rival”. Because of course he does. 

You don’t sideline Jeanne frigging d’Arc and expect me to forgive you for it.

Rank “why are you even here, why are we wasting anything on you”

Jack and Reika: ye god, why. The concept behind this Jack the Ripper? I find Fake ver superior but I’m on board. Then, first, that fucking character design. Sorry BL, reddit, MAL and whatever: putting a child in a thong is a revolting choice of character design and no, there’s no “well, she learned from prostitutes” that count.    I appreciate at least the connection made with Atalanta. But the execution. Their “plot” drag and drag on and goes nowhere (hilariously so in the anime. What was the point of Jack killing some random homunculi and disappearing for the whole arc, again?). Their only narrative purpose is doing ???? for roughly three volumes, *do that* to Atalanta and shaking Sieg’s worldview. At least they grant Jeanne some badass solo scenes and to us more insight on her character. Still the equivalent of a anime-only filler, and a bad one. 

Pity, really, because a child Jack who 1. is a child and act as one and 2. get heavily influenced by her/their Master and thus could either become a better person or be exploited wasn’t that bad of a twist for a famous figure but the pair was never allowed to be more than “Apo pair of rogue murderers”. 

Celenike: just… begone. I cheered when she died in the novel, cheered loudly when she died in the anime and will cheer even more loudly when she will die in the manga. 

#Anonymous #answer #fate apocrypha #fate apocrypha spoilers #fate meta #almost 4k words #fate series