#see even with THIS long post I don't think I've captured everything orv has to say about love

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What do you think about how most people summarize orv's themes as love. I saw one of your reblogs about how it's too simplified for other works?

my general opinion is that saying "x is about love" is usually too damn vague as an analysis. while love is not a universal emotion (shoutout to loveless aros,) it's a common enough human experience that I really think that you need to specify what ABOUT love is being explored. is this a work about the depths of love? is it about the transformative potential of love? there are a thousand different ways love can manifest, and about a billion different ways a story can offer insight on the nature of love. I think it doesn't do justice to a story if you're not specifying what exactly it has to say about love.

all that out of the way, yes. many of orv's major themes are about love. specifically, it relates the love a reader has for a story to the love that a person can have for another human being. a story, like a person, can contain depths unknown to both author and reader - it is impossible to ever reach a complete understanding. there is always some element that will be impossible to communicate. something left hidden behind a wall.

but you can love that story, that person, anyway. you can offer your own interpretations, and try to understand as best you can. and the love and effort you put in matters deeply. the way that you can affect other human beings, specifically, matters deeply. even if it seems like your efforts will never reach that person, even if they are justifiably hurt by your efforts, even if your interpretations are wrong, even if you are the sole reader of a story. it matters that you were there and tried to love it as best you could.

orv also has a lot to say about love, self-sacrifice, and salvation. kim dokja's love of the story and his companions is a major motivator to why he destroys himself over and over. it's paralleled to his own mother, who sacrificed herself for his sake, and who he resented all his life and yet can't stop making the same choice when it comes to the safety of others. that sort of love and salvation hurts as much as it saves. it's as selfish as it is selfless. it's the same choice his companions make in order to get him back. they love him. they would be able to live with his resentment and guilt if it meant he would survive.

kim dokja's love for yoo joonghyuk, specifically, is both selfish and selfless. it is his love for yoo joonghyuk that was (unintentionally) responsible for much of yoo joonghyuk's suffering. the choices kim dokja makes out of love are what mitigate yoo joonghyuk's suffering, and eventually are what allows him to free himself from his eternal cycle. again, it is the love a reader has for a story, and the way that a reader both craves conflict and craves for the characters they love to overcome it.

it is the same love that drives yoo joonghyuk and han sooyoung to repeat the cycle again, as a choice this time. selfishly and selflessly. han sooyoung damns the world to apocalypse because she wished to save kim dokja's life. yoo joonghyuk chooses both regressions and his time in space to grasp at the chance to keep kim dokja alive. neither of their choices is guaranteed to save him. they know that. love alone isn't enough to save someone. but they make this choice because they love him, knowing that he would hate the choice. they create the story together because they want their sole reader to be understood by it.

and that's the end theme of orv's meditations on love and the nature of stories. if you love a story enough that it saves you... well, perhaps it's possible that the story, too, loves you back.

none of this is easy to describe in a sentence. I agree that it's probably easier to just say "orv is about love?" but I wish more people identified it further beyond that, since that usually is where the discussion just stops. I find orv's discussions on love to be some of the most compelling presentations on the topic that I've ever seen in fiction, and I like discussing it! i want to treat it with the complexity that it deserves.

#narrates #orv #see even with THIS long post I don't think I've captured everything orv has to say about love #it's a gigantic fucking novel and has SO MANY THEMES #also imo. when people say 'x is about love' it does often come at a cost of dismissing other themes in a work #in addition to either simplifying or straight up misrepresenting the work's actual depiction of love #which is why I tend not to enjoy it as a type of analysis. at least when it's expressed without much complexity or nuance #however i will say that I have seen some good posts on orv's handling of love lmao. i don't mean to say they aren't out there #or that they're not operating under the same level of specificity that i prefer #just that I personally want to always keep the conversation specific and complex whenever I get asked about it!

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What you wrote about letting the Poster in your mind die struck a cord in me. Lately when I'm writing I can't help but censor myself & add a tone of irony to it & lampshade cliches. Do you have any advice on how to write earnestly? Do you have any favorite media that is written with sincerity you would suggest?

my opinion is that if you're trying to cut out your own urges to be ironic and detached DURING the process of writing, you may end up overly scrutinizing your writing while it's happening, and that's usually what gets you too trapped in your own head to even get many words out. my advice is to simply let it happen in the first draft of whatever you come up with, and then have it be one of the things you look for while going over it in editing. ask yourself when you edit: am I saying what I actually want to say? am I being ironic for a reason, or is it because I don't know how to write anything else? can I try to do something less ironic? if I feel like I want to write something funny, can I come up with jokes that aren't "hey look at this cliche?"

above all else, when editing your own work, I find it valuable to think about whether this is the sort of story you really want to tell. if you feel passionate about it, why do you find it necessary to censor yourself? and if you find that you don't feel passionate about it, maybe you should restructure the work to make it more enjoyable to you. of course, not every scene in a story is fun to write, and not every moment of irony or lampshading is necessarily a bad thing. but if you find that irony is becoming a major habit in a work, it might be worth thinking about whether or not you're actually enjoying your own story.

as for the sincere media - most good media is very sincere! i actually think irony poisoning is the exception rather than the rule, though it is common enough in big blockbusters and the like that I do feel I have to complain about it. I would say most works I've read and enjoyed have been quite sincere. there's good stuff out there if you look.

that said, the works that come to my mind as being particularly upfront in their sincerity are:

mob psycho 100 - you've probably heard of this one. middle schooler with psychic powers and a severe case of emotional repression dispels a lot of ghosts with his con artist mentor and also figures out how to be a more well-adjusted person. mp100 has had a LOT of very eloquent reviews, so I won't say too much about it. it's just an extremely funny and shockingly emotionally resonant work.

witch hat atelier - absolutely gorgeous manga about a little girl who becomes an apprentice witch after discovering that magic is not exclusive to those who were born witches as she thought, but instead a teachable skill that has deliberately been kept in the hands of a few. the art in this is stellar, and its moments of horror are just as well-captured as its moments of gentleness. one of the themes of witch hat atelier is the beauty of art/magic and the joy an artist finds in its creation, and the artwork of the manga REALLY reinforces this theme. it's beautiful to look at and there's a quality of sincere love for both the work itself and its audience that suffuses the manga. though I will give a general tw for child harm - another major theme of the story is the responsibility adults, particularly teachers, have towards children, and this theme necessitates showing the ways that children can be harmed by teachers, as well as showing the ways that a good teacher can affect a child. it's very good!

omniscient reader's viewpoint: this one is LONG (over a million words) but is a great example of what I would call "post-cringe." a guy ends up seeing the events of his favorite fantasy-apocalypse action novel be recreated around him, and is determined to survive in this world where only he knows everything. one of the most charming things about orv, to me, is that the novel read by the main character is pretty obviously "cringe." it's a badly written escapist webnovel that is sometimes overly edgy, relies a lot on clichés, and can be very dense. the story points out sometimes how facts of the novel's world are kind of stupid or contrived. and yet, our protagonist loves that novel, and the story VERY much validates his love of it. despite him having at times a little bit of that ironic detachment towards the novel he loves, it's always clear that he thinks the cool monsters etc. are The Shit and that he is enthralled by the events playing out around him. the writing leans into how cool its setting and set pieces can be. hell, one of the big themes is how a story, no matter what kind of story it is, can mean everything to the reader who loves it. it's a good example of a work that can poke fun at its own clichés sometimes WHILE still loving those cliches and wanting the audience to enjoy those exact clichés.

again, there's a lot of good stuff out there! these are just my picks for having notable sincerity. if you read a lot, chances are that you will find a lot of great, earnest work. personally, I would recommend figuring out what genre you enjoy reading or watching, and then trying out some highly rated works in that genre. it's a great way to try out shit you haven't tried before! I would also recommend trying out stuff from 15 or more years ago, generally, if you're looking at more mainstream novels, movies, and TV series rather than specific genre fiction. the irony poisoning problem wasn't so prevalent then.

hope this helps!

edit: I FORGOT EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE. please watch eeaao, it's a deeply sincere and whimsical piece of art

#narrates #LONG post but here you go. #killing the Poster in your head can be a bit of an involved process #if you make the effort to be less detached & ironic in your self-expression the habit will eventually fade