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simmonsized · 2 years

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Hehe it’s okay, I expected that to happen since it just came out.

Anyway, wanna give us a Bro Strider relationship status update with people he has interacted with so far in this fic?

(WARNING FROM FUTURE ME: this post is VERY long. I'm SO sorry.)

LFKSFJ:IJF:OWIJW:O THE WAY YOU HAVE WORDED THIS IS SO FUNNY

i honesty don't know where to start with this guy LOL ummmm i will be honest we could be here literally all day. it's kind of hard to get into the idea of explaining this without stating exactly how far we've come but it really has come from "my god if only i could be alone for five fucking years wow what a world" to "my god if only i could be alone for five fucking seconds jesus christ" SO. not that much of an improvement but. an improvement!

i'm going to do this in bullet points slap-dashed real quick and dirty like bc there are SO many of them (<- second note from future me this was my hubris talking) (ps i got bro meta all mixed up in there i'm so sorry)

PREFACE: i think a lot of what comes across as "gentle" early bro strider stems from like, well u know all the fucked up shit with his soul, kind of slowly reanimating from Machine to Human Again, Dirk Strider (Bro Strider) with a Purpose, a single-minded idea of how things Have to Be, to a place where "i shouldn't be here i was supposed to be done and now i'm not sure how to proceed"

not to quote my own fic but this is a lot of our starting point:

"Your technique was a major shit show.” “Yeah, I’m starting to realize that now.” “Kinda surprising you didn’t realize it sooner.” It’s not, really. “Yeah, I--” He cuts himself off and you tense up, watch the lines of his shoulders for movement. “I don’t know.”

The point here was never, "Bro Strider is an Irredeemable Monster", but it was also never going to be "Bro Strider feels bad about what he did" because to start, he most definitely fucking doesn't. LOL. I think he saw the way he raised Dave as a necessity, and that it was the most logical path to follow, and that it never mattered if either of them liked it (i don't think bro liked much of anything back then, except for puppets lmao) because it was the path of least resistance with the highest likelihood for success. (I will not get into the way homestuck sets us up like it's a master-apprentice anime joke only to shit on people about it later, because i already made that whole post abt bro and dave and shit u know.) I see him very much the way we see early Dirk Strider, before his disaster with Jake, back when he really thought that pushing his friends to be their "Best Selves" was doing them a favor. Take that as you will.

From here we see Bro change from Before (purpose) to After (lack of purpose, no sense of self) and this influenced a lot of the way i ended up writing him. Which! basically he starts defaulting to how he raised Dave before training because he has. Absolutely no fucking clue how to handle Dave now that they're not strifing anymore, now that there's no game to train for. (Bro would rather he was not anything, anymore but. we won't get into that.)

ANYWAY

Dave(no-longer-a-sprite): a lot of their relationships started as ultra guilt-based on both ends. not from the past, but really just centering the part both of them played in Bro's death. i know we don't have canon proof of bro dying for davesprite but it's my world and i say he did bc it rly does make a weird amount of sense and follows my Guardian's Obligation to Keep Their Player Alive at All Costs. yes even doomed offshoots of their kid. ANYWAY. the two of them have benefited (yikes) from Dave's struggle with depression and his desperation not to let Bro's death be his fault (even though obviously it wasn't) and just their mutually weird "i was supposed to die but now i'm here. what do i do?" Dave didn't have the same revelation as Dave about all his shit with Bro, and he never had an outlet. He just internalized. But this also leads to our first apology! wow so early on and yet there are 50+ chapters that trail after it. It's almost like I believe that saying sorry is the first step or something! Basically their relationship went from revolving around death and a lack of purpose to the first kind of tentative, actual attempt at something of a familial relationship. I can't call Dave a trial run, because that's not fair, nor is it accurate, but Dave(sprite) is a more forgiving figure due to his isolation, and is more likely (not good) to forgive Bro his slip-ups than the other Dave. Also Dave says some alarming ass shit to him and I think that was probably something of a wake-up call for him, like a call to arms or somethin'. Basically, they are trying their best. Or I think they are! :)

Dave (not a sprite and never has been, this is why we call them apple and orange fellas): His relationship takes more effort and more time. Dave has a relationship with Dirk now, that is more positive than whatever he had with Bro (obviously) and it's not like he doesn't NEED Bro, because fuckssake they're still kids (you left a good ask about this but i forgot to answer because i'm a mess) and they need guardians but they're like. These two are the EPITOME of the concept of "you can love someone and want a relationship with them even if they hurt you so bad you can never forgive them." That is their baseline. It permeates every interaction. Dave is almost never not thinking about who Bro used to be, versus the way he's changed. He's jealous of Dave(sprite, for simplicity), he's jealous of Dirk, he's jealous of Old Dave, but he doesn't know how to ask for... whatever it is he wants! Not to mention Dave now has his own personal experience with Bro dying right in front of him, or preventing his death (sort of twice, i s'pose) and having a direct hand in that gave him a weird kind of catharsis, some kind of choice he never got to make as a thirteen-year old (and wouldn't have, anyway, as he confesses at some point). They are genuinely working some shit out. I just think it'll take more time.

Mom: Wow! His best friend from a past life where he was cruel and awful but also at one point may have had feelings and emotions and could have been a person but never so much as he wanted to be, and he's definitely jealous of her, and he also knows that she is imperfect, the same way all guardians tend towards a lack of perfection, but they balance each other out. They are both what I would call "opposite sides of the extreme" if u know what I mean. He is the most comfortable with her because he does not have to pretend, and does not have to be gentle, and she will take his shit because she wants to, and he doesn't want her to, but he can sort of.... She is the first person Bro Strider trusts again, I think. Or he wants to. I think he's just now starting to realize that maybe it's not all bullshit, when people believe in him.

Nanna Egbert (and Hass I spose): Resentment for a life that he was always supposed to leave vs the first adult who ever showed him kindness vs growing up mean and crooked vs the way that she forgives, so so easily, too easily. But he wants her to be proud of him but no he doesn't but yes he does. He would probably bend over backwards for Nanna to make her smile. He would also let Hass put him in a chokehold but only as long as it would take to fucking suplex him into a table. He would never admit to these residual attachments because they are all mixed up in who he used to be, and he doesn't know yet how to separate them from who he is trying to be now.

Dirk: I am not getting into my dirk vs bro vs dirk meta but it went from: This is just me and he is not a real person because he's me so who cares what i say to him -> He is me but now i see that he is also a person who reflects who i used to be and i don't like that -> i'm embarrassed -> I understand him and he understands me to a point and i REALLY don't like that -> beginning to see Dirk as his own person mixed up with "sometimes he's Dirk, sometimes he's you". Dirk meta. we could go all day.

Rose: I already made a whole post about Bro and Rose LOL. Rose wants something from Bro. Bro feels obligated because she's related to Roxy, but it's also maybe the first outside relationship where someone knows who he is from the start and still... appears to want to know him?

Roxy: Mom Lalonde Jr. Feels weirdly comfortable with her. Or at least less likely to snap at her. Thinks she's funny. Doesn't really know how to deal with kids sometimes but he tries, with her. She's kind of the only one (outside of u know).

Alpha Rose: Absolutely Not.

The other Guardians: Amused but tolerant. Annoyed but intrigued. Willing to put up with their bullshit from a sense of obligation he cannot explain and that frustrates him (it's just because they remind him of Nanna and Hass, he swears)

Alpha Dave (flavor: Pacific Cooler): Wow. We could be here for LITERALLY all day. No one has asked for my Bro vs Alpha Dave meta. I'd rather not get into it but alpha Dave was built as a reflection of Dave's worst traits but also as more of a direct parallel to Bro. They understand each other. They don't want to understand each other. Bro has basically gone from "wow who the FUCK is this douchebag it has been so long since i have met another adult who would probably kill someone without blinking" to "i guess he's okay." That is where we are, and doesn't that speak a thousand words.

Hal: It is not Hal's fault that their first interaction went so poorly. I know we don't talk about Cal as a juju but man fucked up ARquiussprite was all mixed up in there right. What the fuck. ANYWAY i think he has reached exasperation on a Dirkesian level with Hal, but also perhaps the beginnings of "oh he's a kid" and thus we have. Gestures to all of the black text in the new chapter. Bro thinks of himself as so far removed from the identity of "Dirk Strider" that he sometimes makes decisions other people would find "bad" and "not very good". Still, Hal is a kid. He knows Hal is a kid. He can kind of tell he's a lonely kid, even if he won't admit it (because Bro was a lonely kid, once upon a time.) I think he thinks Hal is annoying. Has no qualms about blocking him without a second thought. But he won't stop him from pestering him, either! :)

THIS IS UM. TOO LONG?????????????????? This is all i can think of i am sure i am missing someone but fuck me what a cast am i right.

#not even my longest post i think #lmfao who am i missing ummmm #the run and go fic #spoilers i guess #glad we are all at peace with the decision i made for hal this chapter lmfao no one has shaken me about it #SPOILERS I GUESS #the daves are orange apple and pacific cooler yes those are their official titles

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rosemary-is-in-pesterquest · 4 years

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I am. SO. frustrated. that they keep fucking up davekat. like I just wanna go off. just wanna go the fuck off, man, I didn't even ship them that hard at first but god damn I do now and it's pretty much because the epilogues and HS2 have fucked them up so bad and I know they are better than that. let me just.

okay so originally, davekat is built on themes of mutual defensiveness in response to insecurity. when Dave is first introduced, he portrays himself as a cool guy, and gives us the concept of Strider irony. where a normal person might claim to love something shitty as an ironic joke, or maybe the ironic joke masks sincere enjoyment... Strider irony, according to Dave, has a billion more levels of sincerity and insincerity, to the point where you have no idea what the real intent is. in part, this is due to teen pretentiousness... but in some ways this is a reflection of him genuinely finding his Bro unfathomable, and wanting to protect his own genuine thoughts, opinions, and interests from criticism, without actually coming off as insecure. as time goes by, you can watch him and figure out what is sincere and what isn't... he doesn't actually keep that tight of a lid on things, but that's partially because the game allows him more freedom than he usually has. he at least isn't living in his Bro's shadow anymore. some might extrapolate this to mean that he's experiencing more physical and mental security than usual, while others might just say he's coming into his own via this journey, but the fact of the matter is that he felt the need to hide behind this facade in the first place. and the tricky thing with Dave is that it isn't all fake. it's a weird mixture of who he is, who he wants to be, and what he thinks others will respond well to. his development isn't so much discarding the mask, as it is reconciling what it's made of, and incorporating it into his true self as he matures. he accepts it as a piece of him. it's very subtle, and natural, and true to what growing up is really like. I think this is why so many people like Dave and relate to him so much.

for Karkat, insecurity manifests in the form of being hyper critical of everyone around him. to be honest, this also comes from a deep sense of concern for the people around him, and the fact that his friend group is made of a bunch of loose canons who do destructive shit for fun, and people who are easily dragged into that sort of thing. but the thing that keeps Karkat's hyper critical nature from irritating people too much is that he's also super extra critical of himself. he admits it when he's done something wrong... though admittedly often after it's made people angry at him, and he has a good amount of very sincere apologies that he delivers so that they come off as very sincere and actually work in terms of reconciling with people. Karkat's biggest issue is that criticizing your own internal flaws and actually fixing them are two different things. and while Karkat can identify many problems with himself, he's not always the best at making them go away. it takes him a long time to learn how to change himself, because in order to change yourself, you have to accept the flawed parts of yourself and work with them, rather than just trying to push them out of your sight. this is why his anger at his past and future selves is ultimately unhealthy. it keeps him from truly addressing the fact that his current self is just as subject to those same flaws. for example, if he's talking to a past self and a future self, and his future self is condescending to him, and his past self is naive, then his present self is both of those things to his conversation partners. but he's so repulsed by his own negative attributes that he's not really dealing with them. his saving grace is that everyone can see how hard he's trying, and how worried and scared he is. ultimately, Karkat doesn't want to be the reason for screwing everyone over, and that's more concern for others than anyone ever asked for. it gains Karkat a lot of good will, without him necessarily even realizing what he's doing.

what's excellent about davekat is that they come out the gate fully critical of one another... but neither is willing to back down either. somehow, these two insecure idiots trick each other into defending themselves. and it's brilliant, because they get all their critical bullshit out of the way immediately. they don't fear criticism from one another. they already criticize one another all the time, and it's fine. like, their worst complaints about each other are right out there in the open, and how freeing must that be for a couple of guys who worry about other people's opinions of them so much? Dave has nothing to hide and nothing to prove. Karkat defends his own positive qualities. it's good for them. eventually, they just kind of run out of material... and there's something comforting about knowing that they've said every bad thing they can think of about each other, and none of it was a deal breaker. they're still in each other's business constantly. and that's when they start to learn from each other. see, Karkat is really blunt. he wanders into the thick of things, yelling at people and making mistakes all over the place... and Dave is just more cautious than that. his whole cool guy persona is made to keep that kind of raw emotion from leaking out, and to make every mistake seem like he meant to do that. but Karkat makes mistakes all the time. and apologizes all the time. and he comes out okay. Karkat is sincere. but Karkat is also high strung... and Dave isn't. Dave knows how to chill, and he plans things, and he can sit down with people and calmly talk through a plan. get it in simple terms and hash things out without panicking. Karkat often exhausts himself trying to run around and manage everything, and while it can be kind of endearing to see how much he cares... it's not exactly healthy. Dave has more of a level head, beyond just his cool kid persona, and isn't afraid to make people walk things back and take it from the top. and actually, what Dave and Karkat have in common is that they try really hard for the people around them, and feel great concern for the people they love. when the chips are down, they value similar things. and once they've run out of ineffectual ways to badmouth each other, that's what they have left. probably the thing that bugs them the most about each other is how much they actually have in common in terms of priorities. and while I do think that in their relationship, they'll probably always bicker with each other, that's the core foundation. they're caring people who look out for their group and try to help wherever they can. in essence... they're both knights through and through.

and then HS2 fucks it all up. legit why even confuse anything about their relationship? just let them uncontroversially date, keep it lowkey and tasteful, realize the wonderful potential of their friends razzing them about it a little, and write a better story for them to exist in. god damn. like, seriously, just give them more people to actually care about, because Dave and Karkat feel out of character if they aren't constantly in the lives of a plethora of friends who are important to them. look at them in homestuck. look at everything they do best. of course they wouldn't thrive in HS2, none of the cast even likes each other anymore!! Dave and Karkat were basically instrumental in setting up rosemary, which fits so well with all of their characterization its insane. I just want everyone to periodically go back, and reread homestuck, and remember when these characters were good people.

BASED WENDELL COMING IN WITH THEIR ANALYSIS BETTER THAN WHATEVER THE FUCK THE HS2 WRITERS SHIT OUT

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