#doomie's baldur's gate tag

[doomhamster]

I've got to admit, out of all the bullshit that's come out of the BG3 fandom, the recent "we hate Karlach" trend is among the worst. But you know what puts the entire turd cherry on top?

The claim that "Karlach is a Mary Sue".

I mean, I could rant for a solid half hour about how much I hate the term "Mary Sue" in general, how it's fandom anti-feminism distilled to its coffee-dreg essence, how it had zero literary value back when I was a fandom baby and everyone was doing Limyael's fucking stupid litmus test and it has even less now that everyone just uses it to mean "any female character who gets attention I don't think she should have".

Which, you know, is every female character that ever existed, at some point or another.

But even if you assume that there is such a thing as an objective standard of Mary Sue-ness? Karlach just isn't one.

She's gorgeous, but she's not the prettiest character in the group - that's Shadowheart, IMO. Nor is she the most socially adept and charming - that's Wyll. She's FAR from being the smartest - that's Gale, no question or contest. She's arguably the strongest fighter, but it's very close between her and Lae'zel - and since Karlach simply can't compete with Astarion for stealth or offer any of the advantages and flexibility the other companions have as casters, you really can't argue that she steals anyone else's niche.

She doesn't get more attention from the studio than any other origin except Wyll - compare to e.g. Shadowheart, whose Act 2 arc pretty much IS Act 2, or Lae'zel, whose arc runs strong through all three acts. And as for the fandom? I think we all know who gets the most love and analysis there. (Though I've seen a few people who waxed indignant that others might consider shipping Astarion with Karlach, in ways that were, shall we say, not sufficiently subtle about hating the idea of their darling being forced to touch a mere woman.)

Just. Step the fuck off my girl, people.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #karlach cliffgate #karlach

[doomhamster]

...okay but was I the only one who played the version of the game where Wyll does judge people, sometimes? Where he and Karlach leave the party if you attack the grove? Where he calls Kagha a monster for being willing to hurt Arabella? Where he condemns you if you let Isobel be kidnapped?

I know Wyll can be very kind, folks, and I love him for it as much as anyone else, but this version of him that would never get angry ever is fanon. And the version that "would never get angry *with his partner* ever because he loves them so much that he's willing to look past any atrocity"... that's a Wyll without integrity.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #wyll ravengard

[doomhamster]

Thoughts on Wyll, age, and maturity, because it is, as Karlach would put it, a whole situation.

1) At the time he made his pact with Mizora and was exiled from Baldur's Gate by Ulder, Wyll was 17. He was, by Earth standards, a minor. It's unfair of us fans to expect the same level of maturity and forethought of him at that time as we would of an adult.

1a) It's especially fraught to expect Wyll, a black character, to act older than his years, because of the way actual black kids are often claimed to look/act older than their years - and because of this are denied protection and often directly harmed, even killed.

2) In Baldur's Gate, the age of majority is 15. Which is certainly... a decision, on the part of the people who created the Forgotten Realms - but by the time of his pact and exile, Wyll WAS an adult in the eyes of his society, and in his own eyes, if a young one. So if you wonder why the other CHARACTERS don't treat the situation as though Wyll was a kid, that's why.

3) Wyll may have been a kid at the time but his actions were not childish. He didn't enter the pact because Mizora dangled toys in front of him, but to save his city, and the existence of the "demonic, infernal, heartless or soulless" clause shows he wasn't ignorant of the potential consequences or "telling himself it'd be all right because he wanted it to be". Mizora may have pressured and manipulated him but she's also done that to much older and wiser characters, including Wyll's own father; blaming Wyll of all people for not being able to resist her, given what she was holding hostage, is frankly gross.

4) Very importantly, by the time we meet him in the game, Wyll is NOT a kid any more. He is 24 years old. He's travelled, and had adventures, and learned, and matured, since being exiled. It's still the great tragedy of his life, and the pact with Mizora is still a burden on him, but treating him as though he's been frozen in time and not grown up at all is doing him a huge disservice!

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #wyll ravengard

[doomhamster]

More musings on overarching themes in BG3 - is it me, or do most of the origin characters in fact NOT have the option of becoming like their personal villains?

Astarion absolutely does - ascension turns him into Cazador 2.0 both in terms of behavior and of having literally taken a place that Cazador shaped for himself.

Gale can ascend to godhood, thus becoming something like Mystra, though I think whether or not Mystra is a villain is more arguable than most TBH.

Karlach doesn't have the option of becoming like either Gortash or Zariel; her bad ending is death.

Lae'zel likewise can't take Vlaakith's place; her bad ending is being eaten to sustain Vlaakith's power.

Shadowheart takes over Viconia's place in her bad ending - but while Viconia is *a* villain of Shadowheart's arc, she's really barely mentioned until confronted in Act 3. The one actually tormenting Shadowheart throughout her arc, and who decreed she be stolen from her family as a child, is Shar herself.

Wyll definitely doesn't turn into Mizora; his bad ending is remaining under her heel, not becoming more like her.

So that's one "yes", two "maybe" and three "no". Which makes me wonder why I've seen so many people talk about this as though it's a fact, how "breaking the cycle of abuse is the main theme of the game and the good ending is the one where you don't turn into your abuser" and so forth.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #bg3 #astarion #gale dekarios #karlach cliffgate #lae'zel #shadowheart #wyll ravengard

[doomhamster]

"It really feels like Wyll didn't even get to have a childhood - "

I mean, yeah. It's not as if he used to play monster hunter in the park, or go fishing, or steal fruit from the market for a lark, or try to sneak into the Counting-House. It's not as if his father read him fairy-tales or took him for outings on his days off. Nope. Unrelenting cadaver discipline and endless boring lessons, that was Wyll's life until Mizora turned up. /sarcasm and absolute, crushing weariness

Just... get to know Wyll before you wax emotional about him. Just a little. Please.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #wyll ravengard

[doomhamster]

So this may surprise people, but when I first got into the Baldur's Gate 3 fandom? I fucking hated Ulder Ravengard.

You see, I'd seen so many posts in Wyll's tag about how Ulder rejected his son for no reason, never cared about him, didn't even wait for an explanation before driving him out of house and home. Every Wyll lover I'd met agreed; Ulder was the worst and caring about him or his opinions was Wyll's greatest and only flaw.

And then, you know, I played the actual game.

And realized that Wyll himself telling the player "Oh yeah, I tried to tell Father why I'd made the pact but I was literally unable to speak of it because of Mizora. So then I brought him to Dusthawk Hill to show him where I'd fought those cultists, but there was no sign of a battle because Mizora had removed all the evidence. And that's when my father decided to exile me." is what gets parsed as "didn't even wait for an explanation".

Sure as fuck cured me of taking this fandom's word for anything. Or of thinking that any amount of gushing about one's deep and true love of Wyll necessarily translates to actually remembering and caring what he SAYS.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #wyll ravengard #ulder ravengard

[doomhamster]

Okay but given all the takes I've seen about how Ulder Ravengard must've ignored the Bhaalist temple at best (and more probably was in league with them!) because they could never have operated in Baldur's Gate without his complicity? How he must have ignored Gortash's activities, condoned Cazador's murders? How he's at BEST completely incompetent but, let's face it, probably irredeemably corrupt?

I wonder where the similar takes about Jaheira are. Or Nine-Fingers.

Which is not to say that I think either lady deserves it, any more than Ulder does - but they also style themselves protectors of Baldur's Gate. And neither one lets herself be inhibited by little things like "maybe we shouldn't spy on our citizens", or burdened with side jobs like "handling international diplomacy" or "leading the city's military defense". You'd think, since it can't POSSIBLY be the case that our various villains were actually good at hiding their activities, either of them would've caught a clue.

(I must say, by the way, I've never seen anyone try to blame the Emperor's activities on Ulder. Someone missed a trick there.)

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #ulder ravengard #jaheira #nine fingers keene

[doomhamster]

So this is just me being petty but could people stop referring to Wyll, Ulder, or anyone else who isn't Gortash as "Archduke"?

Gortash styled himself "Archduke" because he wanted to be bigger, shinier and tyrant-er than any previous leader of Baldur's Gate. It's not a title anyone else has used before and considering the shit Gortash pulled, it's not likely any sane person would try to use it again.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #wyll ravengard #ulder ravengard #enver gortash

[doomhamster]

Hey @feathers-and-dice! Just wanted to say I'd be interested in a discussion of whether Mizora's actions are or aren't coercive, but I expect the OP of that other post will block me any moment. (Also I somehow suspect they're not actually interested in any point of view that doesn't wholly agree with theirs...)

I would argue that Mizora's actions ARE coercive, most notably when she decrees that Ulder will die (as in, she'll murder him) if Wyll doesn't renew his pact with her. Note how this is treated as a prophecy by Wyll and all the other characters - everyone's assumption seems to be that Ulder is now doomed, and that this is because of Wyll's choice.

Then again, I would ALSO argue that this is a huge, massive cock-up on Larian's part in terms of how the whole, entire setting works, and possibly the largest single sign of how they didn't pay enough attention to Wyll's storyline.

Which I think is what you were driving at with your comment about coercion not being okay under infernal law. Because it CAN'T be, because if devils were allowed to just hold people's loved ones hostage, then the Hells would control literally everything by now. Larian established something that, if true, would wreck the setting, because they didn't bother to continuity-check and canon-check Wyll's arc the way they should have.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #mizora critical #larian critical #bg3 #wyll ravengard

[doomhamster]

So I was just reminded of the perfect example of why the sloppy writing of the Ravengards annoys me so much.

At one point during their reunion, if you're playing as Wyll, you can tell Ulder "it's just like you to judge without knowing all the facts". Which, on the one hand, when it came to his decision to exile Wyll, Ulder very much DID do that - he didn't have any other choice, granted, but still.

On the other hand, according to all the other sources in which he appears, Ulder Ravengard really doesn't DO snap judgments like that. The D&D modules describe him as a meticulous man, slow to speak or act, who is capable of making quick decisions on the battlefield but prefers to weigh his options thoroughly when he can.

And if Larian had kept his characterization consistent with those other sources, we'd be able to dig out all kinds of juicy interpretations of that line!

Was Ulder acting outside of his normal character, and what are the implications of that - was he being hasty because he was angry, because he was distressed, because Mizora was influencing him?

Is WYLL acting outside of his normal character, levelling an accusation against his father that he has to know will hurt? Is it a sign that he's struggling more with the decision to forgive Ulder than he wants to admit?

Hell, if Larian at least gave Ulder a consistent characterization within their own game, we'd know they'd created their own version of him who IS in fact the type to make quick, ill-considered judgments. Which would still annoy me, but it's not the first time - their version of Viconia DeVir doesn't have a lot more than a name in common with the original either, or so I've been told.

But they don't even do that, really, and so what could've been an interesting character moment becomes muddled and ineffective.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #ulder ravengard #wyll ravengard

[doomhamster]

"Zevlor and Ulder are opposites because Zevlor is a commander of a heroic order of soldiers"...

Are we talking about the Hellriders here? The Hellriders who are founded on lies and dirty secrets, by the survivors of a resounding military failure who ran like whipped dogs and locked the gate on their own comrades left behind? The Hellriders who, yes, protect the countryside in Elturgarde - but also help uphold a theocracy? The Hellriders where you're supposed to be a member for life, not ALLOWED to leave even if you want to, except they kicked Zevlor and Tilses out for being tieflings?! Those Hellriders? Not sure they're actually that much better than the Flaming Fist, buddy.

For that matter, are we talking about Zevlor? The same Zevlor who took on responsibility for leading his exiled people to safety, who tried his best but fucked it up because he's only human (well, a tiefling) and a powerful being he was not equipped to resist turned his own needs and fears against him? Who now lives with crippling guilt over failing people he cared about, and struggles to figure out how - IF - he can still be a hero when he has that to carry? Not sure he'd agree that he's that different from Ulder, either.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #zevlor #ulder ravengard #zevlor/ulder agenda #don't pit two sad old men against each other!

[doomhamster]

I think honestly the problem with Ulder Ravengard as a character, or rather with fandom's perception of him, is that he gets a QUADRUPLE whammy of "can't do anything right".

Ulder is a parent. Which, in fandom and especially on this site, means people are not only primed to see the mistake he DID make wrt Wyll as unforgivable (and as solely Ulder's fault despite any other factors in the situation, like, you know, manipulative devils) but to believe that since he COULD make such a mistake he must be a bad parent and a bad person overall. Must have been abusive, cold, demanding, you name it.

Ulder is a cop. Which means it doesn't matter that we're told he's spent the past decade since taking command of the Flaming Fist trying to clear up the corruption - he hasn't succeeded, and he should've known it's not worth trying because wanting to reform a corrupt institution is stupid and immoral.

Ulder is a political leader. Which means anything that's wrong in Baldur's Gate is his fault, because he should have fixed it. Even if that would've demanded he install himself as a dictator, keep citizens under unacceptable (and in the setting, frankly impossible) levels of surveillance, and downright thought control at times. (I've seen claims Ulder is to blame for... some people in Baldur's Gate being racist against tieflings? It proves he must be racist himself or he wouldn't "allow" citizens to hold such views? Do you people hear yourselves?)

And of course, finally and most damningly, Ulder is a black man. Which gets him and all his decisions judged more harshly than they'd ever be otherwise - even, a lot of the time, by the same people who are rightfully furious when the rest of fandom does that to Wyll.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #ulder ravengard

[doomhamster]

his father then disowning him at 17 and kicking him out of the city #ultimately because he played hero so well that it made his father look useless #god poor Wyll

...god your poor reading comprehension, if you actually think that's what happened.

Seriously, I thought I'd read all the counter-canonical, "I love Wyll so much but don't ask me to play through his dialogues or remember them", cold rotting bog corpse takes I'd ever find in this fandom, but no! Congratulations, you've managed to create something "fresh" and new!

-in the singsong voice of someone who's had to repeat this 1 274 times- Ulder exiled Wyll because he thought Wyll was sworn to a devil, which was correct, and hence that Wyll had betrayed the city, which was wrong but Mizora made sure Wyll couldn't explain or prove his innocence.

It had nothing to do with being jealous. Until he's rescued in act 3 of the game, Ulder had no clue Wyll had done anything worth being jealous OF - and when he does? He isn't jealous. He's proud.

I don't expect fandom to give Ulder a fair shake, for all kinds of reasons - but I'm sick of seeing people claim they wuv Wyll ever so much while completely misrepresenting his backstory.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #wyll ravengard #ulder ravengard

[doomhamster]

Okay but I've been seeing a few posts on how BG3 and its fandom doesn't embrace the realities of the setting because resurrection could fix everyone's problems. Apparently it's established that "die and get rezzed" fixes vampirism, tadpoling, even situations like Karlach's heart.

I see two problems with that.

In the first place, "just get resurrected" isn't as simple as all that. The regular issue Resurrection spell explicitly doesn't work on the undead, and also doesn't remove "magical diseases, curses and the like". So in order to actually fix the problems, you need True Resurrection (unless you're Gale, who clearly doesn't expect even True Resurrection to hack it in his particular case - he carries that scroll, but expects it to return him to his immediately-pre-death condition if cast quickly enough; it's an attempt to avoid the orb detonating, not to resolve the situation).

True Resurrection is a 9th level spell, which means you need a lvl 17 cleric or druid to cast it. (Which means, going strictly by game mechanics, none of the characters we see in BG3 could do it, since the game's level cap is 12 but there doesn't seem to have been any adjustment of spell slots. For that matter, none of the characters in the game could cast regular Resurrection either - that requires you to be level 13.) You also need reagents worth 25000 gold a pop. That's a lot.

(Also? While I'm as tired of talking about Astarion's trauma as the next person who doesn't think Astarion and his trauma is the entire point of BG3 actually? I do think "please lie down and let us kill you, we promise we'll expend all this gold and favors and stuff to get you back afterwards and then you will be Fixed" is a bit much to ask of the guy. Hell, I can't see Shadowheart or Lae'zel having *that* much trust in the early stages either.)

In the second place, the characters almost never treat resurrection as an option. There's Gale and his scroll, Mizora can bring Ulder back if he dies before her little blackmail-Wyll-back-into-the-pact spiel, there's Withers and his antics which are really mostly game mechanics... that's it.

Not only do the tadpoles never think to use this method to solve their own problems, it's the same with the NPCs. Ketheric needed Myrkul's help to bring back Isobel. AFAIK nobody even suggests to Durge that they try to get Alfira resurrected. If Kagha and her snake kill Arabella, you'd think rezzing the kid *should* be something they'd consider as reparations, but nope. If Ulder dies in the Iron Throne, even Wyll doesn't suggest bringing him back. And so forth.

Which... I could say a lot about that decision and the use of death as a means of creating tension in a setting that canonically has resurrection, but it's pretty clear that we're not supposed to see rezzing as something everyone knows about and counts on in this game!

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #bg3 #baldur's gate 3

[doomhamster]

Could someone tell me where the "Cazador was a socialite and held decadent parties where the spawn were used as party favors" thing is mentioned in game? Because I've never run into it and from my own playthrough I got the impression Cazador was a recluse.

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #astarion #cazador

[doomhamster]

Okay but in re: "the Ravengards both have their aspirational identities" - the fact they're RAVENGARDS.

It's got a certain lofty ring to it, doesn't it? A certain... mystique. You wouldn't expect a Lower City blacksmith like Ulder's dad to have a last name like "Ravengard".

On the other hand, let's say that blacksmith's youngest boy left the family home. Probably when he came of age, at 15. We know he had no chance of an inheritance (per Murder in Baldur's Gate); we know he had a poor relationship with his father (per BG3 itself); we know he joined the Flaming Fist, an organization well known not to give many fucks about the background or, indeed, the original names of its recruits.

Doesn't "Ravengard" sound EXACTLY like the kind of name a teenager would come up with in that situation? A boy disenchanted with his past and his family, driven by dreams of becoming a hero, a man the Gate could not ignore and would never forget?

#doomie's baldur's gate tag #ulder ravengard #doomie's headcanons