#and all the focus is on the emotional dynamics of WHY they're making particular choices

[silverwhittlingknife]

Hi! Thoughts on Dick and Tim during Murderer/Fugitive, and their argument over whether Bruce killed Vesper?

(My interpretation was that to Dick, Robin means not only unwavering loyalty to Batman, but unwavering faith (“I’m dismayed that there can be a Robin who believes Batman could be guilty of murder”)— whereas to Tim it’s more about having faith in the symbol and the mission, not the person)

Tim (suspicious that Bruce has emotional blind spots and is about to get a case wrong): Nightwing. Channel Two. Go discreet. (Gotham Knights 1)

Dick: I don't - I don't see how you can say that and still wear that uniform... Tim: The guy who gave it to me–the guy who wore it first–HE taught me never to back away from any possibility that might lead to the truth. And he still believes that… right? (Gotham Knights 26)

Ooh, look, it’s one of my favorite comics of all time. <33

Yeah!!  I think hmmm.  Both Dick and Tim are intensely loyal to Bruce and they both care about him a lot.  But they do think about their loyalty to him in very different ways.

Also tl;dr I am biased here but also I am right dsfsfs - although I do think that Tim's loyalty is kinda to the symbol, I also think a big part of the issue here is that Tim's more unambiguous personal faith is given to Dick, not to Bruce. When Dick says, How can you wear that uniform and not have faith in Bruce, Tim answers, essentially, I wear this uniform because I have faith in you. Which is not what Dick wants to hear!

I had SO MANY THOUGHTS about this, so below the cut:

Dick and Bruce and the importance of faith

Tim and Bruce and the importance of doubt

More rambling Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts

Dick and Bruce and faith

Dick’s notion of loyalty is pretty firm: “It's no secret Batman and I have had our... issues. But I won't be involved in anything that hurts him.”  His connection to Bruce, from the very beginning, is all about their shared sense of mission: the oath in the candlelight. Dick’s got this intense loyalty that he feels he owes to Bruce, and he feels betrayed when it seems like Bruce isn’t reciprocating, because as far as Dick’s concerned they owe it to each other.

I think you owe me an explanation, Bruce. ... We were the Dynamic Duo, don’t you remember? / If Bruce Wayne doesn’t exist, who am I the son of? / I know you have to live through restraint. I understand how brevity is your moral compass. But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME. ... I trust you more than anyone. / I've trusted Batman with my life since I was eight. / On top of everything, he's my father now, too... I want to hit people just for thinking bad thoughts about him.

Dick’s first experience of Bruce is fighting by his side.  He initially conceptualizes his role of Robin as about being steadfast partners to each other, and although he'll sometimes later recategorize it as a kid's role, that doesn't change the way he thinks of his own relationship to Bruce: partners, no matter what.

Dick fights with Bruce a lot - he'll pick a physical fight in this very arc! He's not afraid to stand up to Bruce! He wants to be independent and bristles when he feels bossed around or ignored or when Bruce is dismissive or doesn't listen or doesn't call on him for help! But paradoxically, he stands up to Bruce because he has faith in him. Dick respects Bruce enough to confront him and he expects Bruce to offer him the same respect in return. He'll pour out his heart to Bruce because despite everything, some part of him expects Bruce to have an answer, to step up, to be the person Dick's determined to believe he can be.

Tim and Bruce and doubt

By contrast, Tim initially interacts with Bruce like a detective stalking a criminal.  He collects newspaper reports. He follows Bruce and takes photos of him and gathers evidence to present to Dick. He goes to talk to Dick, not Bruce, about Bruce’s problems—and Tim will pretty consistently continue to talk about Bruce to Dick (or occasionally to Alfred), to work behind Bruce’s back, to be frank with Dick in ways that he’s not frank with Bruce.  Tim’s often at pains to insist that he does respect and care about Bruce, but one of the reasons he has to keep insisting this verbally is because his actions and assumptions suggest a lack of trust.

Tim’s first experience of Bruce is of someone who could be a knight or a monster, who needs help and intervention, who can be loved but not entirely trusted.  Someone who isn’t gonna be okay on his own; someone who needs saving and fixing; someone whose sense of himself can’t be entirely trusted or listened to.  Batman needs a Robin.  No matter what he thinks he wants.

In New Titans 71, Wolfman writes Dick musing about Tim as a Robin and how he’s different from Dick himself, and thinking, “He questions more.”  Much later, in Teen Titans/Outsiders, Kory will note the same difference.  Which is a funny thing to write given all Dick’s fights with Bruce—but I also think it’s a true insight!  Tim’s default is questioning.  Almost his entire tenure as Robin is spent as Bruce's apprentice, not his kid, and that affects his attitude a lot. He never takes his trust in Bruce for granted.  It’s carefully considered—and it could be revoked.  A part of Tim is always judging and measuring Bruce, deciding which qualities he thinks are admirable and which ones not so much, what's worrisome and what's not, analyzing whether Bruce is looking after his health or not, etc etc.

You have to promise me something. You'll listen to Alfred and at least call it a night and give yourself a chance to heal. / How many times are we going to have this conversation, Bruce? You died tonight. For almost two minutes you were dead. / Maybe Batman doesn't need to know about this. / He's a hard guy to get to know. / I have friends. He has... associates. / Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. / My boss - my teacher is gone, gone as in fled, but also gone out of his head. And now he may be a murderer as well. / I think maybe Batman has gone crazy. / Don't like the risks he's taking. Don't like the way he spoke to me. I hope it's the concussion talking. I don't want to think his edge is coming back.

It’s not that Dick never worries about Bruce in this way.  He does!  In the arc right before Lonely Place of Dying, his inner monologue compares Bruce to an alcoholic. And IMO it’s strongly implied in Gotham Knights 26 (the Dick-and-Tim fight about Bruce maybe being a murderer) that one of the reasons Dick is so forceful and so upset by Tim’s suggestion is that he’s suppressing his own private doubts.  Tim’s dragging into the open something that Dick is refusing to look closely at.  Dick's faith is an act of will—if I’m going to be Bruce’s ally, then I can’t believe he’s capable of this.  I can’t allow myself to believe it.  And if I believe he’s capable of it, then I’m not acting as his ally anymore:

Dick: "I think it’s… admirable that you can continue serving a system in which you have so little faith. But I can’t. I can’t, Tim. I cannot believe that Batman is guilty of murder. I do not believe it, and I will not believe it. And I can’t stand with anyone who does."

You don't get this upset about somebody saying that the Earth is flat, you know? Dick's not laughing the accusation off; instead, he's drawing a hard line - I will not consider this. I refuse to go there. The topic is off-limits.

(In the same comic, you've got a similar fight going on between Alfred and Leslie with similar stakes - Alfred refusing to believe it but clearly harboring secret doubts, Leslie openly suspicious.)

General Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts

Tim to friends: "I lie to Batman" (Teen Titans 3) Dick to Bruce: "But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME." (Outsiders 21)

It’s always been Tim’s instinct to strategize around Bruce rather than with him. Tim will lie and circumvent Bruce’s orders, whereas Dick will disagree to his face.  Dick respects Bruce enough to give him his say and argue back, whereas Tim tends to think of Bruce as an admired-but-unstable figure who you sometimes listen to but sometimes plan around.

And I think you get the core of that in this arc!

Tim voices his concerns pretty frankly to Dick, but is way more circumspect in front of Bruce, because he doesn't entirely trust Bruce - Tim thinks "is Bruce stable and trustworthy" is "a decision that Dick and I will make in consultation with each other," not a decision that Bruce can make.

In the past, Dick has basically gone along with this kind of thing - he and Tim gossip about Bruce a lot! So it's not surprising that Tim's first thought is that they can confer on it again. But when it becomes a question of "is Bruce murderous, criminal, immoral," then Dick's loyalty kicks in. That's too serious an accusation for Dick to feel entirely comfortable talking about it behind Bruce's back.

Generally IMO, how Dick conceptualizes his loyalty tends to vary a lot depending on who he's talking to. So e.g. in general, Dick's more likely to gripe about Bruce to Tim than he is to gripe about Bruce to the Titans, because he knows that Tim basically likes Bruce. Tim's Robin! Dick takes for granted that Tim is loyal. So it's not disloyal to complain about Bruce to Tim, because Dick and Tim are both on Bruce's side. Dick complains to Tim about Bruce abruptly summoning them into No Man's Land, but doesn't share the same complaint with the Titans. And that's because the Titans aren't friendly toward Bruce in general, and so bitching to them would be disloyal, would be airing dirty laundry outside the family.

By contrast, Tim's a safe audience... until you end up in a situation like Bruce Wayne: Murderer, when suddenly it sounds like Tim may not be on Bruce's side anymore. What are you saying, Tim?

I do think that if Tim had been right, if Bruce had been a murderer, Dick would've ultimately helped take him down. He's very defensive of Bruce because that's how Dick understands the obligations of loyalty, but... he's part of confronting Bruce and demanding explanations in the Cave, and he and Tim (and Cass and Babs) all investigate Bruce together. I think if there had been very very very credible evidence, Dick would've helped fight to take evil!Bruce down. But I also think he would've never stopped mentally searching for an explanation: mind control? body double? I think he'd have an incredibly hard time accepting that Bruce had just murdered someone.

And I mean! In Dick's defense! I don't think Bruce would! At the end of the day, I think Bruce deserves all kinds of criticism in post-Crisis, but I also tend to think that Dick's read of him is a bit more accurate than Tim's, that even though Bruce can act monstrously in all kinds of ways he is at bottom a person who would never ever ever murder a civilian girlfriend no matter how unstable he got and no matter how threatened his secret was. Dick might have a bit more faith in him than he deserves, but at the same time, Tim's jumping to the worst-case scenario pretty fast here, much as he does during Batman: RIP, and I think you could definitely argue that Dick - who's known Bruce longer and better, who lived with Bruce for years instead of just worked with him - has a better and more instinctive sense of Bruce's strengths instead of just his faults.

(And in Tim's defense, as Babs is about to point out to Dick, Bruce has not been behaving especially well recently and Tim has a lot of reasons to be frustrated with him. And Tim's not the only one - Babs is pretty suspicious too!)

.... And of course, I mean, as a Dick and Tim fan, I love that this arc makes very clear that Tim feels his own loyalty is to the symbol, yes, but also that he associates the symbol with Dick first and with Dick's sense of morals, that he trusts Dick, that he sees the costume as something Dick gave him and that's the legacy that he's trying to live up to, to never walk away from the truth, that he thinks the two of them need to be willing to consider the worst of Bruce .... and also the delightful paradox that this isn't loyalty that Dick asked for or wants or welcomes!!

Dick has always taken for granted that Tim was loyal to Bruce, not to Dick; he's not at all happy to hear the opposite. This isn't a heartwarming moment for them but instead a really fraught one, because it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty but it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty that's specifically about not offering unconditional loyalty to Bruce, so Dick feels like he's being invited to be traitors together instead of feeling touched by Tim's trust. Tim's loyalty is something he has to learn to come to terms with rather than something he's happy to have.

And I think that's great!! I love love love these kinds of complicated emotional dynamics (TM), and Bruce Wayne: Murderer is full of them. It's such a fun read.

#THANK YOU FOR THE ASK <33 i rambled for so long sdfdsfs but i really really love this whole arc #it's such a great fight and it does so many interesting things with characterization #it's a story about everybody's very individual relationships with bruce #and all the focus is on the emotional dynamics of WHY they're making particular choices #dick & tim #dick grayson #tim drake #ask tag