#I'm not a witch or religious btw just autistic

[spoekelse]

The Uncertain Origins of Lilith

This is a response to Trae Dorn's claims on their podcast and on Tiktok about the origins of Lilith, which I believe to be wrong. For context, listen to their podcast and read/watch their Tiktoks and Tumblr posts.

My base claim here is that there is a lot of scholarly discourse as to the origins of Lilith, whether she was, in Judaism, originally a singular figure or just a type of spirit, and whether the idea of her as a singular figure is exclusive to Judaism.

Furthermore, we absolutely can't just say all of this "misinformation" originated on Tiktok. Tiktok, like old Tumblr, is of course an absolute mess spiritually. Tumblr's the home of Mesperyian, and numerous cults have originated on Tiktok. So I'm not trying to defend Tiktok here, I'm just against saying with certainty that nobody but Jewish people may believe in her. And I mean to show evidence of older origins of people believing her to be a separate goddess.

First of all, it's important to note that Jewish mythology does have its own night spirits syncretous with "lilu", Lilin (Hebrew: לילין) that are mentioned in the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch, with these annotations by translator R.H. Charles. (read original)

Lelioto. These are the Lilin (לילין)) from the singular Lilith לִילִית. Male and female demons named Lil and Lilit belong to Assyrian and Babylonian demonology. They were thought, as were also the Lilin (Shabbath, 1516), to attack men and women in their sleep (Lenormant, La Magie, p. 36). The Lilith, or night demon, is mentioned in Isa. xxxiv. 14, along with the satyr 'שָׂעַיר The Lilin, according to the Talmud, were female demons corresponding to the Shedim or male demons. They were partly the offspring (Erub, 18b ; Beresh, 42) of Adam and Lilith, Adam's first wife, a demon, and partly wore derived from the generation that God dispersed (Gen. xi.), for God (Jalkut Shim., Beresh. 62) transformed that generation into Shedim, Ruchin, and Lilin. These Lilin inhabited desert places. They were said to kill children. They have been compared with the Lamiæ and Striges ; όνοκένταυροι. is the LXX. rendering of the word in Isa. xxxiv. 14.

However, this 1930 magazine article by Maximilian Rudwin says "The Hebrew word lilin is not a true plural of lilith. We would expect lilitim or lilitos as a plural. The word is in reality the masculine counterpart of lilith and denotes a male night-monster." Which makes it seem like this isn't plural and is a singular male deity.

What these two sources assert checks out with this Jewish Encyclopedia entry on the same source text.

Of the three Assyrian demons Lilu, Lilit, and Ardat Lilit, the second is referred to in Isa. xxxiv. 14. Schrader ("Jahrb. für Protestantische Theologie," i. 128) takes Lilith to be a goddess of the night; she is said to have been worshiped by the Jewish exiles in Babylon (Levy, in "Z. D. M. G." ix. 470, 484). Sayce ("Hibbert Lectures," pp. 145 et seq.), Fossey ("La Magie Assyrienne," pp. 37 et seq.), and others think that "Lilith" is not connected with the Hebrew "layil" (night), but that it is the name of a demon of the storm, and this view is supported by the cuneiform inscriptions quoted by them.

Cited are Emil G. Hirsch, Solomon Schechter, and Ludwig Blau, all of whom are respected authorities on the subject. Lilu, Lilit, and Ardat Lilit are apparently separate beings, Lilit being a goddess of the night.

And what of the protective prayer bowls of Sassanid Babylon? Lilit and Lilith, separate individual males and female demons, apparently suddenly becoming separate beings during Jewish exile in Babylon. But at this point, they don't seem to have been known as the being who wed Adam before Eve, so why did nearly every Jewish house have one of these prayer bowls, and did the idea spring up out of nowhere? And, if Lilith is purely Jewish, why did gentile Babylonians also ward her off with prayer bowls?

All this to say, we can't even definitively say they were only a class of beings and never individual deities.

As you know, it's very debated within Judaism whether Lilith as a singular entity, as the first wife of Adam even exists. Rabbis Maimonides (1138–1204) and Menachem Meiri (1249–1315) have said she does not. Certainly, there is a precedent of lilin as some type of supernatural entity in Judaism, but that's all we can say for sure.

Also, this 1919 copy of Pirke Aboth, equates the demons "mazzikin" with shedim and lilin, and acknowledges their origin as Assyrio-Babylonian. "this is the most general term for them, though various other grades of them are mentioned in the Talmud and kindred writings : shedim = "evil genii," an Assyrio-Bab. loan-word ; lilin, probably evil spirits of the night, also from the Assyrio-Bab."

What do we know for sure? We know the textual basis from which the notion of Lilith as a wife of Adam supposedly arose. We know that rabbis, as a whole, (of course) do not agree on whether this is a strong enough textual basis, or if this is something picked up by Jewish exiles in Babylon. We cannot say if Lilith, as an individual deity, existed in Mesopotamian mythology.

Before we get into the Epic of Gilgamesh business, I've got to say, I take issue with the confidence with which you make these assertions. You admit you are not a scholar. Yet you just keep saying "clearly" when it's not at all clear.

You say ki-sikil-lil-la-ke is totally unlike Jewish Lilith, which is verifiably false. Again, from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

"The superstitions regarding her and her nefarious doings were, with other superstitions, disseminated more and more among the mass of the Jewish people. She becomes a nocturnal demon, flying about in the form of a night-owl and stealing children.."

Lilith is capable of turning into a night bird in many variations of the legend. Yet you sort of derisively mock the interpretation of ki-sikil-lil-la-ke being Lilith, saying it "could literally mean owl", as if that's supposed to disprove anything. In Isaiah 34, a prophecy regarding the fate of Edom, the name "lilith" is associated with owls.

34:14 "And shall-meet wildcats with jackals the goat he-calls his- fellow lilit (lilith) she-rests and she-finds rest 34:15 there she-shall-nest the great-owl, and she-lays-(eggs), and she-hatches, and she-gathers under her-shadow: hawks [kites, gledes] also they-gather, every one with its mate.

There's also Songs of the Sage. For more on Lilith and the association with owls and other night birds, this bit on Wikipedia provides a nice directory.

In the "Inanna and the Huluppu Tree", which is where the "lilitu" is purported to have first verifiably appeared, the young goddess Inanna caring for the Huluppu tree in her garden. She cries, because a Zu bird, and serpent "who knows no charm", and a lilutu have made the tree their home. Her brother Gilgamesh then slays the serpent, and the lilitu and the Zu bird flee. In a hymn about the origins of Inanna, she is taken to Kur (the Sumerian underworld) to taste the fruit of a tree that grows there, which reveals to her all the secrets of sex.

This parallels 13th century-onward Jewish (and Christian) tellings of Lilith

According to the Revelations of St. John, it was Samael or Satan, who, disguised as a serpent, tempted Eve to disobey the Lord by eating of the forbidden fruit and thus brought upon herself and her husband the wrath of their Creator. A certain Christian tradition identifies the serpent of the Garden of Eden not with Samael or Satan but with Lilith, who thus was the main instigator in the fall of our common ancestors. Dante Gabriel Rossetti, in his famous poem "Eden Bower," follows this later tradition in ascribing the temptation in Eden to this serpent woman Lilith. (source)

In Mandaeism, she's considered to represent the branches of a tree with other figures that form other parts of the tree, which you can see in the (honestly difficult to find and download) A Charm against Demons of Time by Christa Müller-Kessler. Lilith or liliths are referenced in Ginza Rabba and Qolasta as residing in the World of Darkness.

In Lilith's Cave- Jewish Tales of the Supernatural compiled by Howard Schwartz, you can see that accounts of Lilith as Asmodeus' Queen grew to include legends about another world, a world which existed side by side with this one. Yenne Velt is Yiddish for this described "Other World".

And as you well know, Lilith is commonly associated with sex. All these parallels are apparent.

Did Kramer "fuck up"? Scholars do not know. Sure, some contest it, but that isn't thewidely held opinion. You constantly calling it a "mistranslation" is giving me hives. Just stop! Why do you keep calling it a mistranslation?

(Regarding the Burney relief, I'm not going to try and claim that's Lilith. It could be, it fits- wings, the animals, the connection to Inanna- but there's just no evidence, and without evidence, trying to claim anything is ridiculous.)

Something else that's going to give me scurvy is you insisting it wasn't a singular goddess, but a whole class of beings; as if it cannot have been both! Religion and history are funny like that- ideas change. Beelzebub, once god of the Philistines, becomes a demon, and then Satan himself. Pegasus is one being, yet we call every winged horse a pegasus. Zeus and Hades- are they brothers, or are they different aspects of the same deity? Is Persephone the same as Despoina? Who are her parents? Are the Eumenides born of Ouranos' blood, or are they daughters of Hades and Nyx, Hades and Persephone, Euronymè and Cronus, or Euronymè and Phorkys? Are gorgons a type of being, or are Stheno, Euryale, and Medusa the only ones, and "gorgon" is just their title?

Lastly.. it's just weird how you talk about people who worship Lilith as a goddess and their experiences. You're like "the thing called Lilith is not a goddess, so if you are dealing with what you believe to be a goddess either they are not Lilith... maybe it's not a goddess, maybe... you've got all these legends about things called Lilitu.. just saying", implying it to be some nefarious pretender. What is a goddess? What is a demon? Who are you to say?

And of course, yes, I agree, always be careful when dealing with the religion of real life people. Don't bother Jewish people about this, they get enough trouble. But there will never be clear answers to these questions of faith. Your god might be somebody's demon. I see a lot of people who work with Lucifer. Just be kind. And look at your primary sources.

Also look at this excellent video by Dr. Justin Sledge on the subject.

#lilith #witchblr #witchcraft #<- tagging for visibility #occult #I'm not a witch or religious btw just autistic #whispers of spoekelse