Tumgik
#why are fancasts always like: white actor - white actor - white actor - white actor - white actor - zendaya šŸ„µšŸ„µšŸ„µ - white actor - white ac
littlefroginapond Ā· 7 months
Text
i just had a very visceral reaction to the timothee chalamet rumor.
like i already have anxiety, i donā€™t need the frail victorian sick boy making me even more anxious
but to the whole point of this: iā€™m applying to filmmaking schools currently and have been a DC fan for most of my life, so let me tell you that i have OPINIONS on DC casting
btw, these are of course my opinions, but as everyone always says, DC stands for Disregard Canonā€¦
Dick Grayson - Nightwing/Robin I
My Casting: Anthony Keyvan
Tumblr media
ideally i would want a Romani actor because Dick is canonically Romani (even if the the origin on why he isā€¦ well itā€™s pretty creepy), but i couldnā€™t find any.
i also tried finding Indian actors, because the Romani people are originally from a specific part of India and are officially recognized as Indian.
ā€¦but there was no luck there either. lmk if you have ideas
but this led me to Anthony Keyvan, who iā€™m pretty sure is Iranian and Filipino. Filipino actually works for Dick because eskrima (the weapon that Nightwing uses) is a Filipino style weapon, so becoming Nightwing could be a way to tie him back to his roots.
Jason Todd - Red Hood/Robin II
My Casting: Froy Gutierrez
Tumblr media
do i headcanon Jason as latino? yes!
is it because Jason grew up poor and abused by his dad? no! (if you headcanon him bring latino because of thisā€¦ thatā€™s racist my dude)
i actually headcanon Jason being latino because of this actor, whoā€™s half Mexican and half white. a combination of his past acting roles and just his general vibes feel very Jason to me.
Tim Drake - Red Robin/Robin III
My Casting: Aidan Gallagher OR Ian Chen
Tumblr media
Tumblr media
Tim is the one that i wouldnā€™t be incredibly mad if they cast Timothee Chalamet as. i mean, i have feelings about only casting A-list actors, but it wouldnā€™t be the absolute worst.
Tim is typically drawn very angular, which gives a lot of people the headcanon that heā€™s Asian. i donā€™t feel super strongly about this, which is why i found 2 actors.
i chose Aidan Gallagher for a couple reasons. one: heā€™s like 5ā€™5ā€ (at least according to google, i couldnā€™t find it on imdb). two: his role as Five in Umbrella Academy. UA has always gave me batfam vibes, and i do see Five as the Damian of the group, but for some reason, he also really reminds me of Tim
now if you do headcanon Tim as Asian (which iā€™m fine with, iā€™m just not super opinionated on it), then i think Ian Chen would be a good choice. heā€™s a pretty young actor (i think mid- to late teens), so he hasnā€™t been in much, but heā€™s a good comedy actor, which i think works pretty well for Tim.
and finally, the most contested casting of them allā€¦
Damian Wayne - Robin V
DCā€™s Alleged Casting: Timothee Chalamet
My Casting: Ian Ho
Tumblr media
Tumblr media
NO. NO. NO.
STOP.
i refuse to let this little white ghost boy play a character that is canonically white, Chinese, and Middle Eastern.
i will say that i had a hard time finding a young actor that is white, Chinese, and Middle Eastern, but Ian Ho is Chinese (allegedly, idk where i actually heard this), so it was the closest i could get.
BUT ITā€™S STILL CLOSER THAN DC.
these are all my opinions ofc, so donā€™t take it too seriously. also i definitely have fancasts of the rest of the fam so lmk if you want those too ā¤ļø
46 notes Ā· View notes
low-budget-korra Ā· 7 months
Text
Resident Evil Fancast #2
So, I've already did a Fancast before but it was like...I don't know, years ago? I still like it but now I'm taking more of a "realistic approach" choosing actors that could actually play the characters based on their Hollywood Status and age. I will also be remembering the Remakes when choosing the actors
Ps: I really like the cast of Welcome to Raccoon City and would totally watch them again in a sequel. I just choose not to put any of them here
Chris Redfield
So, for Chris my first choice was Gabriel Basso who stars in The Night Agent, I haven't watched the show but I think he matches the look with the character. He also have that aura of being serious but chill and trustworthy, he is in his late 20's so basically around the same age Chris is in Re1. The second actor is Marco Pigossi, a talented Brazilian actor that stared in Tidelands and will be in the spin-off of The Boys. He also matches the physical description of the character, and also have that aura that Gabriel also have plus those gorgeous charming and kind eyes. And Lastly I picked Dj Cotrona, he is the older of all, being in his 40's, I like his role in the From dusk till dawn tv series and doesn't hurt that he also matches the physical appearance of the character plus he really looks like a military man I don't know.
Tumblr media
Jill Valentine
Just by looking at Daniela Melchior you understand why I pick her, he is also in her 20's and have all the talent and charisma necessary to play the character . The second is Adria Arjona cuz I really love the idea of a Latina playing Jill, she in her 30's and has those damn eyes that just get you. Lauren Cohan is a bit older for the role, but she would be the perfect Jill to DJ Cotrona, if the movie wanted to portray them as older characters. Btw, the four protagonists I choose people around the same age to play the characters because I think it would be weird to have a 40'old Chris with a 20'something.
Tumblr media
Claire Redfield
Annalise Basso look more like the og Claire Redfield, she is also the youngest of the 3 actresses here and have very kind and loving eyes and features, and she is the youngest sister of Gabriel Basso and I think it would be pretty dope to see two siblings play the Redfield Siblings. Nell Tiger Free looks more like remake Claire, she have that "insta model" look and a "cool girl" vibe, she stars in Servant and is a very promising actress, and for all the Game of Thrones fans, she also played Myrcella Baratheon on the show. And Lastly, Sophie Skelton is the oldest on them, a talented actress that starts in Outlander , her looks is kind of a mix between old and new Claire, she is also have a more mature posture and would be the Claire to Lauren Cohan and DJ Cotrona Jill and Chris
Tumblr media
Leon Kennedy
Nicholas Hamilton, the bully in It would be a nice Leon to Annalise's Claire, since they both worked together before in Captain Fantastic. Second we have Nicholas Galatzine , who stars in Red, white and royal blue...I mean look at him, he really looks like remake Leon. Brenton Thwaites is the oldest of them and just have that friendly nice guy face. I think Leon needs someone who could appear/convey adorableness and capable inexperience and bravery. And I think these three fit this.
Tumblr media
Albert Wesker
Anthony Starr is the Wesker we always dream of seeing in the big screen and I will die on that hill. Warren Cole is good second choice, I mean he is a himbo in Yellowjackets but he also appeared in The Wilds and damn, he was intimidating there as the homophobic father. Lastly we have Kevin Janssen, I mean, look at him, he just have a villain face c'mon. Also he did portray a real, terrifying bad guy in Revenge (the good revenge corn movie)
Tumblr media
For RE1 I think of Kiernan Shipka, Nick Offerman and Jack Quaid as Rebecca, Barry and Brad.
Tumblr media
Resident Evil 2
Resident Evil 2 we have Jung Ho-yeon as Ada but I also think that Gemma Chan would rock that role. Sterling K Brown is Marvin c'mon. Violet McGraw as Sherry. Andy Garcia would be terrify good was Chef Bryan Iron. And Teddy Sears and Tricia Helder as William and Annette Birkin
Tumblr media
Resident Evil 3
Diego Boneta as Carlos Oliveira, just look at the gorgeous hair and beard. Stephen Lang as Mikhail Victor. Igor Jijikine would make Nikolai look even more intimidating. And Trevante Rhodes as Tyrell Patrick
Tumblr media
Resident Evil Code Veronica
Ewan Mitchell and Phia Saban from House of the Dragon would be so good as Alfred and Alexia Ashford. Jaeden Martell is basically at the same age of Steve and I think his character needs to be played by a young actor anyway. Tenoch Huerta would be a interesting Rodrigo Juan Raval
Tumblr media
Resident Evil 4
Diego Luna would be the perfect cast for Luis SerĆ”, not only he looks the part but also has that riz. Sophie Thatcher is a extremely talented young actress who would be able to portray a more develop and cool Ashley, like the one we saw in the Remake. Paula Patton was a nice voice, is elegant and would be a nice choice for Hunnigan, another actress that I think could play the role is Jennifer Connelly. Alan Ritchson as Krauser, I don't think I need to sell this one. Mads Mikkelsen is such an imposing presence on scene, he would be amazing as Osmund Sadler. And Lastly, Jack Gleeson, our beloved Jeffrey Baratheon, would be a perfect Ramon Salazar
Tumblr media
16 notes Ā· View notes
jellicle-chants Ā· 2 months
Text
Tumblr media
@ride-a-dromedary Since you asked, here's my beef with Hugh Jackman Meredith Willson's The Music Man Sutton Foster. (No really, that's what the soundtrack album cover looks like.) Basically, I think the revival did a terrible job of capturing the soul and energy of the original show. If you want to read my protracted rant about it, then by all means, continue below.
(Note: I'm mostly going off of the movie adaptation to count for the "original" since it's the version I'm used to, but I also listened to the OBC recording occasionally to see what was shortened for the movie.)
I think the first big thing I should mention is that Hugh Jackman is simply a terrible choice to play Harold Hill. No offense to him, but in my eyes he's always been better at playing a character who seems very charismatic but is actually a bumbling fool (i.e. PT Barnum). Harold Hill might be a conman, but his whole livelihood revolves around getting people to believe that he means what he says and then believe that, too. You need an actor with an incredible amount of charisma and presence to be able to pull that off, and IMO, Jackman is not that actor.
He's also (again IMO) really just snoozing his way through this recording, especially on 76 Trombones! He's dropping R's left and right (to the point where it almost sounds like he's making the effort to sound Southern) and they had to add in a trombone sound behind his mimicking one because it sounds SO dull. Then he mispronounces "Creatore" somehow?? I know that's the littlest thing to get upset over but it also just shows how little this show's creatives know or care about what this musical is all about (more on that later).
And then: they do the MMM thing from Cats 2019. AKA, where they drop out all of the orchestra and sing the biggest song, probably the song that the most people in the audience will know, in a really annoying, slow build-up that entirely kills the flow of the piece. Speaking of killing the mood, the dance break in the middle of the song really does that as well. "76 Trombones" is about the farthest you can get from broke, so I have no clue why they tried to "fix" it in this way.
My least favorite Hugh Jackman song from this soundtrack, however, is not 76 Trombones, but Marian the Librarian. Just from the off, this is one of my favorite musical theatre vamps ever and they absolutely ruined it by playing it at like twice the normal speed. It also starts in the wrong key and then keys up again (???) before he starts singing, and from there it only gets worse. He basically gets every single vowel he possibly could wrong (my favorite being the classic Brit-as-American "Watt can I do") and just trips and falls through the entire song extremely uncharismatically. He says "li-berry" at one point, for goodness' sake! Please, if you haven't listened to the original Robert Preston version of this song (either from the movie or the show), go do it now and then listen to the mockery Hugh Jackman makes of it. It's so obvious that Preston has such a better command over his voice and sound that it makes Jackman sound like he has no clue what he's doing.
Sutton Foster is not nearly as bad as her co-star, although I think she's also miscast. Obviously a Shirley Jones-style voice is really hard to recreate these days, but she's just got such a bright singing and speaking voice that if you had told me in 2021 that she was going to be playing Marian I would've thought you were bad at fancasting. I think she still does a fine job with the poor directing choices she was given ā€” a true professional.
OK, some quick things before I get to the most infuriating part of this revival.
It was also very bold of the creatives to not only keep My White Knight, which is one of my always-skips of the original, but to also add another one in in "Columbia, the Gem of the Ocean".
Why the hell is Pick-A-Little so slow??? It's a patter song, folks, it's supposed to be peppy.
I guess they directed the poor kid playing Winthrop to exaggerate the lisp as much as possible (could they have considered maybe just hiring an actor with a lisp instead?) because it straight up sounds like he's putting it on as a joke most of the time. šŸ˜¬
I think the new lyrics to "Shipoopi" are cringe. Is it that hard to suspend your disbelief that people in 1912 had antiquated views on relationships? Is "hussy" really even that bad of an insult anymore? This song also gets the slowed down + long-ass dance break treatment, God save me.
So, if you're familiar with The Music Man, you might have noticed that I haven't yet mentioned a few key songs/moments. This is genuinely the part of the story of this revival that makes my blood boil. If you're unaware, 4 side characters in The Music Man make up a barbershop quartet, played in the original Broadway production and movie by the Buffalo Bills, a pre-existing quartet who Willson had become friends with even before writing the show. The Bills get multiple songs in the show, all sung in the barbershop style, and they all show off the iconic barbershop effect known as ringing chords, created from the quartet's just tuning. (I don't know enough about music theory to get into the weeds about this, but suffice it to say that barbershop singing and musical theatre singing are not interchangeable).
Apparently, when the revival was first being produced before the pandemic, a barbershop quartet called Category 4 was approached to play the quartet members. Great! Then, allegedly, post-pandemic, it was, to quote a spokesperson for the revival, "in the best interest of the show" for them to suddenly cut ties with Category 4, which would have broken contracts Category 4 said they signed. Less great. Instead, the 4 men credited as playing the quartet are Phillip Boykin, Eddie Korbich, Daniel Torres, and Nicholas Ward. I say "credited," but keep in mind that the OFFICIAL cast recording on Spotify does not credit Nicholas for "Sincere" AND "Lida Rose" (where Phillip's name is also misspelled), and on the two songs he is credited for, Spotify seems to have him confused with a violinist/conductor of the same name.
I bring this up to say that I don't blame these men for the situation Category 4 was put in ā€” it seems the producers or someone else behind this production is extremely sloppy and willing to cut corners, including casting four musical theatre singers as a barbershop quartet. Because of this mindset, the songs are distinctly missing those ringing tones that are present in the Bills' versions, replaced with what I can only describe as "tricks" to make it seem like the harmonies are ringing, like a heavy overuse of dynamic changes, especially sforzandos. There's also at least one moment where one member (I think it's the tenor?) straight up sings the wrong note and completely changes the chord. Obviously I don't blame him for not being good at a singing style he literally isn't a professional at, but if there were at least one person in the booth familiar with barbershop or the original song, it hopefully would've been re-recorded.
And that's what hurts me the most ā€” Meredith Willson was a huge fan of barbershop music and the Buffalo Bills especially, and now the music he wrote for them is being butchered by people 60 years later who want to make a quick buck. This revival has "cash-in" written all over it, from stunt casting the leads regardless of how well they fit the roles to not bothering to get actual professional barbershop singers to play a barbershop quartet. It's a soulless attempt to resurrect a great musical that didn't need to and shouldn't have happened.
6 notes Ā· View notes
la-pheacienne Ā· 1 year
Note
All of Westeros is white, even Dorne, but Arianne quentyn and trystane aren't necessarily fully white, but mixed. Their mother is from Norvos, a city that is inside of Essos. The people from inside of Essos are usually described as in-real life poc. The problem, however, is that grrm is a dude that wrote this on the 90s mainly and is really orientalised. But this fandom seems to be unable to rationalize that fact and start respectful discussion regarding possible representation and physical appearance of characters. The other problem is that they themselves spread orientalised visions of Dorne. I've seen so many people creating gifsets and fancasts of Dorne using a mixture of Pakistani, Indian, turkish etc even a SPANISH actor just bcs they have some shade of brown skin, hair and eyes.
Yeah excuse you but Dornish people are greek. Like, in canon. You say a lot of nice words nonnie but I don't see you mentioning this in your ask so I'll have to respectfully correct you because I'm just SICK of my culture being heavily disrespected and erased by pale blue eyed bitches. Elia is literally a greek name, my cousin is named Elia. The name Arianne is the latinized form of the greek Ariadne, GOOGLE IT AND STOP BEING IGNORANT SHITS FFS can't us greeks like have ONE thing for ourselves??? Why do you hate us so much? I'm sorry but if you combine Palestine and Spain you get Greece and that's canon and fuck y'all if you disagree. Rhaegar dumbed Elia the classic greek beauty for a grey eyed northern-european plain Jane and they both got what they deserved, unfortunately Elia payed the price, which symbolises Greece always getting the short end of the stick and being sacrificed in European wars since fucking forever. Educate yourselves.
24 notes Ā· View notes
romancomicsnews Ā· 7 months
Text
Who should play The Batman in the DCU?
Tumblr media
This is a question that I think no one really wants to answer.
After the success of Matt Reeves The Batman, Michael Keatons return to the role, Kevin Conroy's Death, and Ben Affleck leaving it, I think it is safe to say people have had enough Batman, and enough good takes of the character.
Even so, Andy Muschetti is currently set to direct The DCU's Brave and the Bold, which will show a new Batman, now older and with his son, Damian Wayne.
Recently a popular fancast surfaced of John Krasinski for the role, to some fans love and some fans dismay.
Tumblr media
Personally, I don't think he was suited for Reed or for Bruce. I can see him more as a Green Lantern. But this did get my wheels turning, hopefully to do better. And I got some picks. But first, we need to answer a few questions.
What live action versions are we pulling from?
Tumblr media
We want to pull key elements from different versions, but there are so many iterations Jesus.
I am not going to go into all of them, I'll stick with 3. But know that I am a fan of most iterations of The Batman.
Ben Affleck
Tumblr media
Love him or hate him, Ben Affleck's Batman was memorable. Personally he has a lot of things I want to incorporate into our DCU Batman. For one, he is our older Batman. Our actor should be similar aged to Ben.
He is also a complete unit. After being Batman for so long, he has had to make himself more of a unit in order to properly take out foes.
This is also the best voice, suit, and fighting style I've seen for a live action Batman. The voice modulator works wonders.
I think Ben had a presence that made it clear he was a leader of the team, if not Thee leader. I want our Bruce to feel the same.
Robert Pattinson
Tumblr media
Robert Pattinson is a little weirdo. And I mean that in the best way.
This was the first time I think it was properly shown how uncomfortable it might be to be around such a presence as Batman. He is fear personified, and working with someone like that can and should be awkward.
Pattinson also took being Batman way too seriously, our Bruce should do the same. Batman's a religion to Bruce.
We need someone who can be a middle ground between these two as Batman.
Christian Bale
Tumblr media
While those two perfected Batman, no one has done Bruce Wayne better than Bale.
Bale by far did the act of Bruce Wayne most convincingly. It is one of my favorite aspects of his films. We need someone who can pull off charming douchebag when needed, but slip back into dark loner.
Bale was also funny in a way Batman hasn't been in awhile. We need someone when comfortable be able to joke with Clark.
You can see why casting a Batman can be extremely difficult. Balancing all these characteristics are crucial to making it work.
What ethnicity is Bruce Wayne?
Tumblr media
All iterations of Batman have been white.
Now, is there value in making him another ethnicity? Maybe. Making him a person of color could be part of why he doesn't trust the police and takes matters into his own hands. Perhaps maybe his parents being new money is why they are killed. Who is to say?
For now, I will say Batman can be any ethnicity.
Other Stipulations
Tumblr media
The DCU Batman is confirmed to have a son, Damian Wayne. Assuming he has already raised Dick Grayson, Tim Drake and Jason Todd is already dead, this Batman has to be in their 50s. We're looking for an older actor.
George Clooney, Val Kilmer, Michael Keaton, Christian Bale, Robert Pattinson and Ben Affleck have all taken up the role, meaning we need a name. Someone who immediately you know, whether you like it or not. But we also need someone surprising.
We need someone who we can see doing this for awhile. At least 5-8 years. The DCU is just starting, so someone with longevity is a must.
He should probably be tall.
Finally, as always, someone not known for past superhero roles. Let's begin.
3. Jamie Dornan
Tumblr media
Jamie Dornan may be the safest and most controversial choice for The Batman.
Like Pattinson before him, Dornan is known for playing the love interest in some pretty bad movies, but since has made a career for himself full of wins. Projects like Belfast, Barb and Star Go To Vista Del Mar and the Tourist proves Dornan has the acting chops for it.
He is a little younger than we would like, but he can play older, and looks a lot like a classic Bruce Wayne.
Tumblr media
I have two main concerns for Dornan. One, would he be better off as a villain? In the DCU, he may make a fantastic Gotham City villain like Harvey Dent. But in the MCU, does he have the making of a fantastic Doctor Doom? I think so.
Tumblr media
Finally, the character he plays in Fifty Shades of Grey is BASED on Edward Cullen, who was played by Robert Pattinson, our current Batman. The comparisons will be built in from the beginning, and we something fresh.
I think Dornan can kill it, but there's too much against him for him to be my main pick.
2. Bradley Cooper
Tumblr media
Now I know what you're thinking, he's Rocket Raccoon!
Yes he is, but the Guardians movies are now finished. And unlike his teammates, Cooper doesn't really show his face when playing the character. In a way, he is oddly detached from Marvel.
He has also worked with James Gunn before, is currently producing Joker: Folie a Deux, and has an incredible career to back up him as a pick.
From American Sniper to Nightmare Alley to A Star is Born, Cooper consistently delivers. He can do suave, he can do loner, he can do troubled, and he can do comedy. I think he could be a spiritual successor to someone like Ben Affleck, and lead the Justice League in a way that feels natural.
He'd also be useful behind the camera, as he was the director of A Star is Born.
Tumblr media
My biggest concern with Cooper is whether he would want to do it. One of the benefits of playing a raccoon is you get to work from a booth for maybe a few hours and you're done. This would be a commitment.
There also comes the question of whether Cooper is bigger than the role. We want people to be lost in the story, so finding an actor who convincingly be Batman is crucial. Cooper might be just a little too big for this.
Of my three, I think Cooper is the most likely to land the role, and that may be for the best.
1. Alexander SkarsgƄrd
Tumblr media
If we're looking for a surprising pick, with range, physicality, a name that is big but not bigger than the role, I give you: Alexander SkarsgƄrd.
Known for roles in The Stand, Succession, The Northman and Infinity Pool, SkarsgƄrd is one of those actors who is often forgotten but people are excited to see when he pops up.
He is a dramatic actor who can do funny, scary, and anything in between. He's played fantasy characters in The Stand, a billionaire asshole in Succession, and a warrior in The Northman, all praised. He has all the making of a great Batman.
Tumblr media
He is classically handsome, and at 6'3, 46 years old, he is just in the age range we're looking for, and towers over most heroes.
He doesn't feel like any other Batman before him either, which will help us stay away from those comparison conversations.
I don't think there really is a perfect answer as to who should be the next Batman. But of all my options, SkarsgƄrd makes the most sense. I could see him and David Corenswet leading the league for years to come.
Tumblr media
Thank you for reading! If you'd like to support me, you can:
Follow me at www.facebook.com/romancomicsnews
Follow me on Twitter @diegoleonroman
Follow me on Threads @romanleondiego
Help me pay my student loans by donating!
3 notes Ā· View notes
horizon-verizon Ā· 6 months
Note
I am Palestinian and there is absolutely no characteristic of Palestinian culture in Dorne or the Martells. Their stans only use racial stereotypes about us & orientalist characterization to justify it and prove that the Dornish are ā€œPOCā€ in order to make them seem oppressed, and are pushing even more racism and orientalism towards MENA populations.
According to them, the Dornish are simultaneously Arab, Desi, Amazigh, Iranians, Turkish, and sometimes, Latinos. North African, West Asian, and South Asian countries are lump together as one monolithic ā€œbrown peopleā€ entity. 30+ countries with multiple, unique, and diverseĀ cultures and religions, very distinct fromĀ eachĀ other. The Martells simultaneously celebrate Diwali and goes to Hajj. Why would the Dornish followĀ Hinduism or Islam ?? They largely follow the Faith of the Seven, the Westerosi Catholic Church.
For their edits, they use pictures of the Alcazar of Seville or the Alhambra, castles located in SPAIN, and fancast drop-dead gorgeousĀ INDIANS actresses like Deepika Padukone, Freida Pinto, Aishwarya Rai as Elia (ā€œaĀ kitchen drabā€....) or adult Rhaenys. Or Dev Patel as Young Griff. They keep using the screenshot of GRRMĀ listing Palestine as one of his inspiration for Dorne to justify their headcanons, so why do they keep insisting on using Bollywood movies, Indian actors, Indian monuments, saris, etc ??Ā The only common points between the Alcazar of Seville/Alhambra and the Taj Mahal are the Islamic architectureĀ and the engraving of QuranicĀ verses.
Disclaimer: EDITED, Long, and Repetitive bc of attempt at clarity and Reminding Readers
Maybe coming from this post (I've gone back and edited it with corrections)?
I think it's because people really want to see PoC representation in their high fantasy literature, which is completely valid. However, yeah, the Dornish aren't Palestinian-coded nor Arab/SouthAsian/etc.-coded...I mean, they mainly worship the Seven, too, the Westerosi polytheistic version of Catholicism. So they can't necessarily be 1-1 like Palestine in terms of culture & ethnicity, even though the ME does have Judaism & Christian peoples. Again, Dorne--as far as was told & shown--mainly worship the Seven. (look to section "B", point #1)
Big Point: A singular major, past, centuries-old event of intermarriage before the Targs arrived is not a continuous event. The Rhoynar marrying pre-Rhoynar Dornish peoples happened in a few isolated incidents and afterward, the people became what they now are and after many decades & centuries, they do not have that "two people" identity anymore. They are just "Dornish". Their ancestry is always brought up mainly because of their custom of noblewomen being equally as able and seen as worthy to rule as their men, esp the Martells. To compare them to Westerosi farther up.
A)
Doylistically, on the one hand, people could claim that the Dornish could claim PoC-ness or be easily adapted into being played by PoC actors in the real modern sense by who they are descended from -> an Essosi people who had darker skin. Yet the Valyrians and Andals are "white" by the 1st being "proto-English with a Catholic religious analog and the 2nd being an ancient Rome-analog"?!
They are not Rhoynish either just because they are descended from the Rhoynar who--a very long time ago (centuries, before the conquest)--intermarried with Andal-descended lords and presumably smallfolk. Ethnically, they are something else entirely (maybe Andal-Rhoynar but that seems insufficient) their own thing from their unique history.
So, we have "Moor" descendants marrying "white" Christian Spaniards. So, like Spaniards and Italians, they seem the "lesser whites" which still makes N.Euro descent and N.Euro look at Italians, Spaniards, or those in Central EU as "lesser whites". Meaning that they have both Andal and Rhoynish roots with the Rhoynish equal primogeniture and opener-sexuality and little-to-no bastard stigma really defining its difference from those Westerosi further north. Dorne is a state with various skinned but seemingly non-racialized people (internally, not how the Andal-FM nor Daeron I characterize Dorne) and the Dornish people are a unique ethnic group.
And because race has always been about power and not culture:
B)
I was one of those who watched the show before I read the book, and I thought the Martells were PoC and I did some research. Apparently, Oberyn looks like this:
Tumblr media
šŸŽØ Credit: Magali Villeneuve
And his description:
has the features of a saltyĀ Dornishman [more below in section C, but: "These Dornishmen are lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair, having been most strongly influenced by the Rhoynar"]. He is a tall, slender, graceful, and fit man, and has a lined and saturnine face with thin eyebrows, black "viper" eyes and a sharp nose.Ā His hair is lustrous and black, with only a few silver streaks, and recedes from his brow in a widow's peak.
Arianne looks something like this:
Tumblr media
šŸŽØ: tiziano baracchi
Darker than "olive" Her description:
is buxom and beautiful, with olive skin, large dark eyes and long, thick black hair that falls in ringlets to the middle of her back. She has full lips, a husky voice, and round ripe breasts with huge dark nipples. Favoring her motherĀ Mellario, Arianne is short, standing at five foot two.
Mellario was from the Essosi "Free City" city of Norvos but their skin color is not really described.
Oberyn's daughters all have different complexions and mothers of different origins, Westerosi and Essosi (all descriptions from the official wiki):
Obara -- "big-boned woman near to thirty, long-legged, with close-set eyes and with the same rat-brown hair of her motherĀ which she sometimes ties in a knot. She strides quickly and angrily.Ā Obara has callused hands and can have a mannish look." -- mother: unnamed Oldtown prostitute
Nymeria -- "slim and slender as a willow, with straight black hair worn in a long braid which pulls back from a widow's peak.Ā She has dark eyesĀ which are large and lustrous.Ā Her full lips areĀ wineĀ red and curve in a silken smile,Ā and she has high cheekbones. Areo HotahĀ describes Nym as having pale white skin inĀ A Feast for CrowsĀ but mentions her olive skin inĀ A Dance with Dragons." -- unnamed noble Volantene, specifically of the "Old Blood" - Volantis, another Free City in Essos
Tyene -- "is fair, with golden hair and deep blue eyes.Ā Dimples bloom in her cheeks, and she has a gentle, sweet voice" -- mother: a septa from the Reach
Sarella -- "light brown skin" -- mother: the Summer Islander captain of The Feathered Kissed ship
Elia -- black hair/"her black braid flying behind her" (The Winds of Winter,Ā Arianne I) -- mother: Ellaria Sand
Obella, Dorea, and Loreza -- no description as of Nov 5, 2023 -- mother: Ellaria Sand
Ellaria Sand is supposed to look like this:
Tumblr media
šŸŽØ: amok
Her description:
Although not accounted as a beautiful woman, Ellaria is regarded as attractive and eye-catching, with an exotic, sensuous flair.Ā She has black hair.
AND
"black-haired paramour" & Ā "She is not truly beautiful, she [Sansa] thought, but something about her draws the eye." (A Storm of Swords; Sansa IV)
And Doran Martell (currently reigning as the Prince of Dorne) has no canonical physical description aside from "His body is soft and shapeless, and the gout has swollen and reddened the joints of his knees, toes, and hands." However, since he is Oberyn's brother we can assume that he most likely has similar "salty Dornish" coloring.
C)
The anon of the first linked post all the way up above: "GRRM himself has said that the closest equivalent of Dorne to the real world is the Moorish influences of Spain, and mentions PALESTINE and Wales as being two other influences. Literally his own words. Even in Game of Thrones, they filmed the Water Garden scenes in the Alcazar of Seville, a beautiful Moorish castle in Spain. That castle was literally built by Muslims and incorporates versesĀ from theĀ Quran and countless traditional Arabic and Islamic architectural elements".
You: "there is absolutely no characteristic of Palestinian culture in Dorne or the Martells. Their stans only use racial stereotypes about us & orientalist characterization to justify it and prove that the Dornish are ā€œPOCā€ in order to make them seem oppressed, and are pushing even more racism and orientalism towards MENA populations" AND "North African, West Asian, and South Asian countries are lump together as one monolithic ā€œbrown peopleā€ entity." AND "They keep using the screenshot of GRRMĀ listing Palestine as one of his inspiration for Dorne to justify their headcanons, so why do they keep insisting on using Bollywood movies, Indian actors, Indian monuments, saris, etc ??Ā The only common points between the Alcazar of Seville/Alhambra and the Taj Mahal are the Islamic architectureĀ and the engraving of QuranicĀ verses."
1.
If we are talking about race vs ethnicity & the rise of racism from religious or ethnic differences and a desire for colonial domination...
Dornish people mainly live in their own principality or a kind of state controlled by a "prince" or "princess" that is actually unlike the Rhoynar cities because there were multiple "city-states" under several Rhoynar princes and princesses who, while sharing a language, also likely had different laws and sub-styles of the dress and think of themselves as culturally/ethnically different from each other.
Thus in terms of Dornish people being oppressed or experiencing racial oppression alone, we cannot compare Dornish people nor the Dornish state to Palestinian refugees and Palestinians living under an apartheid. They are not the same, they are not living under the same conditions of racial or ethnic terror. And yes, a lot of Palestinian people out of this region of the Middle East draw a large part of their Palestinian identity from their memories and terms with the Nakba and the effects of said event that exist today and have been for more than 50 years. What I'd say is similar is that many Dornish may also draw some of their identity from their continued resistance to conquest...but the Dornish are not resisting ethnic cleansing, genocide, or racial extinction. The first Targaryen attempts at conquest were decidedly non-ethnic-cleansing so much as just your average kind of "conquest" that Andal, nonDornish Westerosi have performed against each other before the Daenys and her father ever settled at Dragonstone. Yes, Westerosi can be racist towards Dornishmen but that includes the "stone", fair-skinned Dornishmen as we see from the continuous marcher vs Dornish conflicts over land & grudges/vendettas over past conflicts/deaths.
What are some traits of Palestinians or Palestinian culture that another anon was trying to say the Dornish currently have?
"Game of Thrones"--"filmed the Water Garden scenes in the Alcazar of Seville, a beautiful Moorish"
"theĀ Quran and countless traditional Arabic and Islamic architectural elements"
"Moorish", as Medieval and early-mod period EUs used, referred to Muslim Arab-speakers. Aside from North Africans, Arabs, and Amazigh did include Muslim Europeans, because Islam itself was the defining basis for their difference from those Christian Europeans and the regions where people who adopted Islam or Islamic states dominated where those N.Africans, Arabs, and Amazigh lived. In a medieval context, DOUBLY SO.
Once again, Dorne does not worship any Rhoynish god & their official religion is decidedly of the Faith of the Seven (aside from those of the Greenblood, but these are not a large part, a dominant, nor very influential part of the Dornish population).
Nowhere did GRRM say that the Welsh inspiration only applied to the stony Dornish. why do people think this? Perhaps because these are the ones closest to the Marches and thus fighting often with Reach/Stormland marchers, they'd be the most Welsh/Irish-like. The Welsh/Irish/Scottish inspiration, however, is the fight for separation from a conquering centralizing entity--societal/governmental separation from the rest of Westeros--& having a separate identity from that almost like Northmen seeing themselves as different culturally and ethnically from "southorn" Andal people and vice versa bc of their different customs regarding the allowed genders to rule that come from Rhoynar customs.
While there will be Rhoynish elements to fashion, architecture, metalworking, and inflection of the Common Tongue (accent)...it does not stop the Dornish from, again:
recognizing that their state language is the Common Tongue [the Red Princes & some of their descendants of the Martells tried to eradicate the use of the Rhoynish language from the Red Princes] even though many of the Dornish's accents are very influenced by the Rhoynar to the current day
worshipping the Seven and not Rhoynish gods
having some elements of Andal fashion and architecture along with Andal ones, even if the "stony" Dornish have more Andal influence in dress, etc. [think of Spain and its Arab or Islamic architecture...Spain is a European country]
having a class system similar to Andal-FM Westeros: aristocracy, or the "ruling class" vs everyone else [less about the culture here, more about hierarchy structure which is not the same as a culture]
No matter how far down south or into the desert we go. Of course, dress will change in different Dornish regions' climates but also by class and/or wealth.
2.
And this is said screenshot of GRRM talking about the influences that made Dorne what it is ("So Spake Martin", 2000):
Tumblr media
"flavor given the culture [previous Andal Dorne preNymeria] by the great Rhoynar influx"
"South of the wall a hot, dry country more like Spain or Palestine [not just Palestine, and this was referring to climate in the first place, not culture]"
"Moorish influence [not dominant power or overlord] in parts of Spain [not an African, Asian, etc. region, again, emphasis on it being like Spain with an "outsider" "influence"]"
"Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in" [emphasis on Dorne being claimed as an amalgamation with just one PoC real-world state with PoC populations]
People need to see GRRM's "mixing and matching", and no "non-for-one transplants" regarding PoC influences. Westeros, though obviously an England/Anglo-Saxon "transplant", is still not exactly historically like England in that Dorne is similar but not equal to Wales or Spain or Turkey/Palestine yet not itself equal to a Caliphate due to religion and language.
However, aside from the Dornish not really even being a part of a racialized state under a dominant power racialized as superior, this is what GRRM says about the Dornish and Martells (his blog, 2013):
Tumblr media
This is about what GRRM said in terms of JUST physical appearance -> "As for the Dornishmen, well, though by and large I reject one to one analogies, I've always pictured the "salty Dornish" as being more Mediterranean than African in appearance; Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, etc. Dark hair and eyes, olive skin. Pedro Pascal is Chilean. (Check out Amok's version of the Red Viper, that's how I saw him. Or Magali Villenueve's beautiful and sexy portrait of Princess Arianne)."
And this was one of the responses:
Tumblr media
Most relevant piece bc it mirrors the anon's definitions of race: "If Alessandro de'Medici was the Duke of Florence, why not a brown man as the Prince of Dorne? Even now, with your description of Dorne as "Mediterranean," I immediately think of the vastness of the region, which saw so much North African and Middle Eastern influence."
This entire exchange on GRRM's website reveals that originally the Martells/most Dornish were inspired by EU Mediterranean people, like the Portuguese or Spaniards, Greeks and Italians.
a.
While it's certainly possible bc of the proximity of geographical locations within the Mediterranean regions and the population makeup of various Italian states including "Moor" and darker-skinned folks, we don't know for absolutely certain if Alessandro de Medici truly had a slave-servant mother or otherwise an Arab/African mother--he was one man whom many in those upper circles wanted gone for their own rise to power. But
Unfortunately, while there shouldn't be anything wrong with being of a woman with a different ethnicity or religion, claiming that he was from a "Moor" mother would be a way for other people to try to diminish his reputation and likeness-peerage with those in court as Alicent and the greens trying to claim Rhaenyra was unfaithful to Laenor and that her kids with him are actually bastards to ruin her reputation. It wouldn't be about the "truth" so much as swaying public opinion with certain details of appearance. A political strategy.
At the same time, who knows, perhaps they used the fact of him looking darker than a lot of EUs around them...but the EUs themselves have married N.Africans and also came in several "shades"...so yeah.
If we are only talking Watsoniansly/in-world/in-text vs modern ethnic (not racial) identities, your mother being a "Moor" or Muslim did not make you yourself a Muslim, Moor, or racially "Black" or Arab, and "biracial"/"mixed race"--as a racial term or category of Blackness or whiteness--wasn't a thing for these Italians.
b.
One man/a few people in higher circles or in power doesn't make the entire family or state PoC when most of them appear pale, speak a specific Italian dialect, AND live under European customs forever after and before.
His presence did not recreate the entire Medici or anyone descended from them into Africans/Arabs ethnically nor racially. "Racially", he would have been seen as "more" "noble Italian Christian" than anything, even with some using his skin to liken him to the socially suspected, racialized "Moors". And just because there were absolutely NA. and M.E. influences in many non-EU and EU music, literature, architecture, etc., doesn't make every Mediterranean person PoC. (We find out that the idea of courtly love partially was influenced by an Islamic mystical conception of love itself as being "a delightful disease, as demanding of faithful service" [coming from Crusade contact]. It doesn't suddenly mean that "Italy" [one of the first regions to pass down such things through Petrarch] became/was/is a PoC region. Still doesn't make Italians PoC.)
RACE - Mediterranean/Italian/Spaniard/Portuguese/Southern Europeans have BOTH been racialized as "lesser" whites in early modern period European AND have the closest proximity to the "best" whiteness that always becomes THE definition of "white" under pre-WWII phrenology and eugenic scientific racism. "Best" becomes "true", never leaving its own hierarchy but always able to retreat back into its own "absolute naturality" to justify that created hierarchy. These two things came hand in hand and justified each other because both sought to "prove" that "biological and behavioral characteristics were fixed and unchangeable, and placed individuals, populations and nations inside of that hierarchy" through skull measurements...which itself comes from that medieval idea of one's "nobility" or lack thereof being indicative in appearance.
As I said above, even today, some white people of Protestant-N.European backgrounds sometimes look at Italians/Italian-descent people through their stereotypes of being "hotblooded", and hypersexual "white" people. This is most definitely an element of racialization. These "other" whites are those descended from the NorthWestern regions of Europe (England, France, Germany, and Scandinavia/Nordic people).
c. HOWEVER!!!!!
The user in the pics above who wished for more PoC representation in the TV and book series through the Martells makes a good point that "Mediterranean" doesn't have to be limited to the European Med regions and peoples. Because N.African, ME, etc. peoples (those not racially classified as "white") are also directly connected to the Mediterranean Sea: Turkey, Egypt, Palestine, Libya, Algeria, etc...it's weird how race makes us consider these people not Mediterranean, but that's race for you, it denies culture and ethnicity for the sake of "white" supremacy
GRRM does conflate the general Mediterranean with EU Med, and that's because the racial category "Mediterranean" defines "Mediterranean" as "white people from Spain, Italy, etc"
While there weren't "black", "PoC", "brown" racial categorizations in any Arthurian legends nor the societies that these came from, there were racializations (as in descriptions and sense of the person that made them different by look by some "degree" even if not toally by "kind") of characters that were told to be of different/non-EU origins.
they were expressing the racial problems with GRRM's original intent for the Martells and some Dornish to be imagined as those who'd be categorized as PoC or brown in the modern world, telling us that there is room for PoC in-world leaders and nobles as there were in Arthurian legends and other medieval romances
They were right to point out the serious difference in how most PoC-confirmed or imagined or similar people were more "supporting characters" to specific "white" characters and that there was a need for more diversity where the PoC-acted/played characters in adaptations since the original works AND adaptations are made for racialized audiences of the modern world.
d.
Like with Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre--where Rochester's first, "mad" wife, Jamaica-born, Creole-heritage Bertha Mason, aka Bertha Antoinetta Rochester--we see a lot of debate over characters' racial identities between white and PoC readers in multiple EU pieces of literature. This is a thing descended from that academic conflict that is sociopolitically motivated.
The documented hot refusal from many white historians and "lay" white readers to even contemplate the possibilities of a PoC-featured-character (positively or not) under certain circumstances comes from the enduring acceptance and expectation that most mainstream media will have whiteness at the center and default of the story. That the media is created and will be created and should be created for white audiences. which is exactly what we should be breaking.
3.
So, I believe that the reason we have people saying the Martells are PoCs is because they saw the definite potential of modern racialization & racial categories happening in ASoIaF and wanted to see themselves or their experiences in the fiction they engage with, just like that user above. Just like that commentator. So they use South East Asian clothes and other things to fan cast/re-cast/reimagine even after what GRRM has made bc before then they have already built that picture for years since they read the main series and before the show aired.
When English/NW Europeans and pre-1800s writers say things like "swarthy" or "tall, dark, and handsome", they were not usually saying this person was as dark as a Western African but they may sometimes use racial/color ideology to characterize a EU white person as "too passionate", "blustering", "angry", and "lacking enough proper restraint". GRRM is the same, as he tells us in the picture above from his blog!
And since we can't always detect a person's race or lineage just by looking at them, it also still means that they may have African or Middle Eastern ancestry. Then we got to ask ourselves when and where do some of our (mostly the U.S. I refer to, but other countries' racial categories are still very different) definitions of race need to overshadow the text/past racial categorizations and racializations? It's even stranger when you realize that even caring about something like this comes from a very specific history series of particular events of people performing racialization.
But even though the now-Dornish are a people who have been forever changed by pre-Rhoynar Dornish men's intermarriages with Rhoynar women, their kids (and not the nonDornish Westerosi) were the ones to determine what Dorne would look like.
Though they seem to match the definition of a "mixed race" and therefore are equal to persons racialized as "PoC" today, in many societies like the U.S. (one-drop and grandfather clause), that simply doesn't exist for Dorne because there was no nonDornish oppressive power that defined legal racial definitions that affected their infrastructure or made them second-class citizens for them to then develop their own ethnicity like Black people in the U.S, which is its own race-ethnicity developed from legal and economic atrocities and racialization.
Most of the oppression common-born Dornish face is from Dornish aristocracy! Class-based rather than race or religion-based.
Yeah, there's a possibility that some people felt a sort of having two different identities as the kids and even grandkids of Nymeria's women and the pre-Rhoynar Dornish men, but without that element of another group enforcing a new racialization to further divide the Dornish (as Daeron I foreshadows or clues us in?!) all there is that shared history and Martell overlordship, and the Martells are one of those with the most Rhoynish/not-Andal-FM influence. Of course, most of Dorne will follow suit. There are no laws in place to determine who is "PoC", "Coloured", or "white" or any ASoIaF-fantasy version. They have a past/centuries-old and successful intermarrying between (mainly male) Martells and Nymeria's (mostly female) people WHILE having the same language and religion as the rest of Westeros, as well as other customs.
With the way GRRM made them, they are both "white" and not "white" because "whiteness" is not a thing in Westeros. And for the sake of readers looking for people to claim to have PoCness, whiteness itself has undergone several definitions according to the immediate political needs of those holding the higher positions of power or influence in the state or groups within states seeking political privileges from being racialized by that dominant society's legal and social systems.
This means they can be as "dark" as GoT Oberyn and even have what some modern people see as Arabic physical features (which kinda makes little sense bc Arabs share a lot of features with some "Med" Europeans, especially Turkish ones) but we also see how they can be quite diverse in the canon with paler "stony" (not a true ethnicity, this is a racial category that Dornsih people do not see to acknowledge and therefore is not an ethnicity) people and Oberyn's paler daughter Tyene.
Refrain: The Summer Islanders, though, ARE DEFINITELY the "Black" people of Westeros. As GRRM says in the pic I showed.
D)
Again, race existed AND continues to exist to differentiate the "inferior" people from the "superior" "white" race of paler-skinned, loose/flat-haired, North-Western-then-South European peoples whose ancestors they could trace or identify with most were Christians. Whether in Brazil, all EU countries, the U.S., etc. Yes, European people/countires can be and continue to be extremely discriminatory and racist, esp against Africans and Romans. Individually and legally.
In the modern world, race is categorized differently across today's world, as evidenced by what "black" means in Brazil vs the U.S.; the South African Coloured group vs "black" vs "white" vs "Indian" (apartheid race categories, and "Coloured" still is relevant and a sort of racial category in S.Africa today); "mestizos" vs "peninsulares" vs "mulattos" of various colonizations-slavery era-to-today S.American, Mesoamerican, Caribbean countries. All because "race" is a socially constructed category, made by culturally-ethnically external persons of power over another group. Ethnicity, however, is and has always been a factually independent phenomenon.
"PoCs" as a term in itself a racial term that means "anyone who is not pale skinned AND of long, consistently 'uninterrupted'/'impure'/ European descent". It is not an ethnic term or a name for an ethnic group.
Ethnicities are social groupings purely based on shared cultural heritage, descent (from specific other ethnicities), culture, religion, and/or language.
In this way, there are 3 main ethnicities in the whole of "Westeros", which are those of FM, Andal, and Rhoynish descent and we could even argue that there may be more unknown smaller groups. And none of these are racial groups! Two of the three also share the exact same religion and language and most customs barring sexuality and primogeniture (except those of the Greenblood, who still speak Rhoynish): those of Andal and those of Rhoynish descent. First Men-descent peoples of the North worship the old gods of pre-human Westeros.
Intermarriages between certain ethnic groups were not systematically and socially outlawed or discouraged to maintain the visible and legal distinctions between racialized groups in either Dorne nor not-Dorne. No ethnic or religious groups are banned from taking certain jobs or entering guilds; no particular groups were banned from living in certain areas or even traveling and using certain items and ways of travel. (We're talking about the humans, not the TWStSotE or the giants, bc we are doing ethnic groups, not totally different species.)
How do groups get racialized and prepped for legalized racialization? Governments--monarchies and aristocracies, here--attempting to better organize their control over populations and consolidate power after past and very recent conflicts with "foreigner-conquerors" like the Muslim conquest of Hispania by the Umayyad Caliphate, to whom the anon before referred (Limpieza de sangre).
Why are they "foreign", besides coming from a literally other region and culture? Medieval people's primary identity marker besides class was religion, and Muslims were considered actual enemies of Christian societies in Europe. People saw religion as the means by which people were "inherently" different:
Especially in a period like the Middle Ages, when religion meant membership of a community much more than adherence to a set of principles or beliefs, there was a sense in which one was born a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew, just as one was born English or Persian. ("Medieval and Modern Concepts of Race and Ethnicity"--Robert Bartlett)
This is also why in medieval literature, Jewish people were referred to as "black" and "dark-skinned" pseudo-metaphorically, as Christians had the "true" faith and therefore were spiritually "bright" or closer to God's "light". And humoral theory, with Jewish people being conceived of as a people with a more melancholic constitution (black bile = melancholy -> night, evil, malice, envy):
The Isagogue, an Arabic introduction to Galenic medicine translated into Latin in the eleventh century, similarly explains that dark skin identifies black bile as the body's ruling humor. (8) The linking of black or dark skin with melancholy continues in European texts of the twelfth and thirteenth century. Short poems delineating humoral types circulate widely in the period; the "Melancholicus" is described as "envious and sad, greedy and close-fisted / not without deceit, fearful, and of mud color [lutei]. ("The Jewish body in black and white in medieval and early modern England"--M. Lindsay Kaplan)
Thus Jewish people were named "black" for their nonChristian-ness and thereby untrustworthy or "grasping" natures.
Then there is the separate history of the idea that "nobility" (as in "bravery", "virtue", and overall "good and attractive 'quality'") could be seen outwardly and obviously through physical features that curiously never actually get a consistent list or picture until the 1200s-1300s (it's always been at least grey eyes and/or blonde hair). We have to remember that the ancient Greeks and Romans were used as the medieval Europeans' inspirations for medicine, morality, philosophy, beauty standards, etc., and they themselves did not give highly detailed portraits of what makes a person "beautiful" or even in just describing women in other than vague, noncomparable terms or singular traits: Athena had "grey-eyes" and that's it...Aphrodite's hair was "long", Briseais was "tall", Chiseas was "not tall", and Hera had "nice arms". Their main concern was what men looked like and if their bodies looked "strong".
It wasn't until poets and bards of the 1200-1300s began to make lists of more features that made women attractive that we get more detailed portraits of "good-looking" people and men vs women attractiveness. (For women, the "best" became to have small and high breasts, grey eyes, blonde hair, pale skin, white teeth, a mouth like a rosebud in size and shape, wider hips, a plump butt, and finally a round and pudgy belly. Basically a "pear-shaped" body). And this turned into the literary device of the "blazon", which the medieval poets (Petrarch popularized it) and later early-modern period poets, dramatists, and other writers, as PoetryFoundation says:
A literary blazon (or blason)Ā catalogues the physical attributes of a subject, usually female. The device was made popular by Petrarch and used extensively by Elizabethan poets.
describing and making the body as a list of individual parts instead of its own whole thing, so that parts of the body can be compared to other things and thus give a certain characterization to the subject that way. The subject themselves becomes less themselves and more the perspective and "dream" of the writer/audience.
And "racial and racist stereotypesā€”even ostensibly positive ones (such as ā€œAsians are good at mathā€)ā€”by definition, conflate and confuse biology and culture" ("Were Medieval People Racist?").
Combined -> the setup(s) for early modern-to-current racializations.
E)
We do see some of this sort of attempt or precursor of solid racial categorization from the nonDornish towards Dornish people regardless of class: "salty", "sandy", "stony", and less known, those people who still speak Rhoynish and live by the Greenblood:
Tumblr media
The "salty" vs "sandy" vs "stony" things are all exonymic proto-racial categorizations (like the term "Moor") that still don't present different real racial consequences among those Dornish.
Exonymic? Meaning that they are not categorizations made by the native people--noble or not.
It's not like Daeron I would have out-of-the-blue been able to create these categories without there already existing a socialized link between Rhoynish culture and "negative", not-patriarchal-enough nobility. Rhoynish influence/culture directly defines these categories. (But he didn't impose nor did an entire other group of people impose infrastructural change to Dornish society for the sake of their own created racial supremacy...ever.)
There are/were several battles and skirmishes between Stormlanders, Dornish, people of the Dornish Marches, and Reachmen Dornish. AWoIaF relates, "hot-bloodedness and sexual licentiousness, and are still viewed with some mistrust and rivalry by the people of the neighboringĀ Dornish Marches and theĀ Reach". Dorne's equal primogeniture (i.e., far less intense and critical misogyny) and freer sexuality are those things that are made more definitive of the Dornish's political difference and separation from the non-Dornish aristocrats at least at the time of Daeron II's court and marriage [zaldrizer-sovesi] AND "race" as a concept does not track equal to what we consider "race" and those racial experiences PoCs have in modern societies despite these definitions WHILE still indicating ethnic discrimination.
It's funny, because rather than the Jewish "melancholia" described above, the Dornish, by their nonDornish association, would be considered a "sanguine-choleric" people for their "hotbloodeness" and "sexual licentiousness" that really comes from:
a long history of skirmishes with other Andal peoples, then the first 3 Targs and still surviving as their own state, then those eternal ones for revenge and small pieces of resources between houses along the borders of Dorne to the north...leading to the fierce Dornish independent identity
comparatively freer sexualities and fewer sexual restrictions on gender roles (men and women, as men having sex with other men is very taboo and emasculating in the ND, "100%" Andal-FM culture)
and not treating women leaders as an anathema (equal primogeniture)
Yes, there is no racial Dornish diaspora like there is a Jewish or Black diaspora ("theĀ dispersionĀ or spread of a people from their originalĀ homeland" usually due to wars, violence, displacement, etc.). With Dorne and Dornish people being politically and culturally independent--both in idea and practically since before Daeron II's marriage to Myriah Martell--there were definitely Dornish people moving in and out of nonDornish Westeros and some would inevitably live in ND Westeros, these people are migrants-dual-subjects of a state that is still in all the ways it matters, independent. unlike Black people in the U.S. or Coloureds in S. Africa, whose governments historically and currently gave/enforced these categories developed from European-to-settler/colonist racialization. And unlike anti-Semitic/Islamophobic laws & anti-blackness and other real-world measures, there is no evidence of any oppressive laws or daily discrimination against Dornish communities (I'll say the Sylvenna Sand of Dance fame is an indication of Westerosi patriarchy looking at Dornish less-intense patriarchy as a lesser-"dangerous" identity maker).
Their "racial?" identities also do (yet, if it will go exactly like real life) not have the oppressive or racial context that enables people to argue that Rhaegar left Elia, didn't love her, or valued her and her position as his wife because he felt racially superior to her--esp with how we have no literary (symbols, metaphors, parallels in-text) nor direct evidence of Rhaegar seeing Elia through a racial bias as his father does with Rhaenys their daughter when she was presented (which is what this entire thing came from, as Elia/Martells stans claimed and what drives that argument in this post/reblog HERE).
It is that the Dornish will be considered the lesser "race" if there ever came a time when they were ever truly conquered and imperialized by ND peoples from Westeros. For now, it is far more accurate to say that there is ethnic bias against the Dornish or the Martells that could slide into racism.
GRRM created a world and fantasy series that is trying to simulate a medieval racialization of people WHILE also inevitably showing the roots of modern civilization, which are two different forms of racialization that are nevertheless connected. In other words, GRRM hasn't successfully made 1-1 analogs concerning race.
But does "origin"="being"? How and why?
Therefore, we do see a race or race existing in Westerosi ideologies, but it is BOTH not as prominent as how they regard how women should be treated AND comparatively more fluid to modern-day race and even changeable.
Refrain: The Summer Islanders, though, ARE DEFINITELY the "Black" people of Westeros. As GRRM says in the pic I showed. I have to repeat this because I can see people trying to take advantage of it.
In All...
A people of the first few "mixed" Rhoynar and "100%" Andal Dornish children from intermarriages that are no longer just "mixed" individuals. To claim that they are anything else is to begin the process of racialization, as such a phenomenon (intermarriages between previously separated ethnic groups to become a new distinct one) actually happens more often than not, and to make it unique to just the Dornish is to Other it for racial categorization, as NonDornish aristocrats probably would do. Fans refer to the state of "Westeros" as a "nation", it was not a nation but a territory of several states and smaller fiefs owned by nobles who collected taxes from local peasantry and probably gave a portion of that to the King/Monarch, keeping the "King's peace" (feudalism). The reason why there is a divide between "NonDornish" and Dornish people is the measure of how much Andal vs. Rhoynish culture makes the infrastructures and political practices in the respective regions, and there just so happens to be much more Andal-influenced regions and more people than Rhoynish-influenced without Andal culture becoming either true or "official" overlords over Dornish people in any unique or oppressive way different from how the Monarch is the "overlord" over a Stark, Karstark, Tarly, Hightower, Lannister, etc.
I think anon from that ask is saying that GRRM intended for the (arbitrary number) 80% of Dorne (therefore "Dorne") to be PoC and thereby make it a PoC state/people through choosing to mix several ME, SE, and N. African cultures's properties into a new fictional "Rhoynar" people. To them, this mix-match defines the Dornish as PoC because they see the Dornish people as being a "mixed-race" group of individuals like biracial children of modern interracial couples, and they continue to be biracial exactly as conceived until the current time of ASoIaF.
However, the modern "mixed-race" depends on the already existing races created by the world one lives in and only can be active and politically real races within a society with such definitions and dynamics of race built into its legal & education systems.
Still, though PoCs are historically and currently oppressed groups (aside from EU Jews, who were/are white and were continually oppressed) in places where European imperialism and colonialism reshaped previous societies, it's not correct nor wise to say that all or most PoCs draw their very being/humanity from discriminatory violence alone instead of the racialization oppressive groups performed because identity itself is not as simple or absolute and enduring as race and oppressive regimes try/tried to make. Or their ethnicity, like Black Americans. It's just that:
racial identity is political identity, not inherent or made "true" by those oppressive forces, that is exactly what those oppressors want (proving "might" = "right")
Elia would never have experienced anything equal to even what a richer PoC person does in the U.S. in terms of race
the Dornish are not PoCs!
Refrain: The Summer Islanders, though, ARE DEFINITELY the "Black" people of Westeros. As GRRM says in the pic I showed.
5 notes Ā· View notes
etherealnoir Ā· 1 year
Text
You can always tell when white people donā€™t know any actors of color for fancasts, and are too lazy to do a minute of research. Bc someone on Tik Tok was like ā€œWe should do a remake of Twilight with Taylor Russel as Bella and Martin Sensmeier as Jacobā€
Martin is almost 40 years old. Why would he play a 15 year old boy?
Also we donā€™t need a remake of Twilight.
6 notes Ā· View notes
kyle-valenti Ā· 2 years
Text
@elenajones23 asked me these questions literally like a month ago but I wanted to do some research to remember some of the anti-m@lex points and then my mom died so anyway I'm answering them now!
(keep in mind I haven't watched any of s4 yet)
Who do you ship Kyle with? Who do you want him to end up with? And why?
.... I've thought about this a lot. I was an enormous Kylex shipper and still love what they could have been if the show had taken things there. (As soon as I find a non-racist, non-white, actually Native actor to fancast as Alex for edits, I'm sure I'd be crazy about them again.)
Aside from them, I think the last ship I liked him in was either Guerenti or kyle/michael/maria (their one episode killed me). I did like kyliz in the beginning, but now I know they share a sibling it's further down the list.
Do you ship Michael & Maria and do you think they still have a shot of being endgame?
GOD YES i ship them. i may love guertecho, but miluca was my first michael ship that cannot be pried from my hands. That being said, no, I don't think they will be endgame. the m@lex stans are too loud and they've already decided to push maria off onto another side character because the cw hates woc.
Agree or disagree? Alex is TOXIC af and his relationship with Michael is TOXIC af. might seem sweet on the surface but itā€™s actually toxic just like Ross & Rachel.
... the friends reference made me laugh so much. i also don't like ross/rachel, mainly because of Ross, but I do think they're far different than m@lex. (i think liz/max post s2 finale are more rachel/ross honestly, but that's a different conversation)
as for Alex and by extension m@lex being toxic... definitely agree.
to begin with, Alex refuses or perhaps is incapable of seeing the class privilege he has while Michael grows up in poverty. he tells Michael with no compassion that he has to leave the only home he ever had that wasn't abusive or a literal truck. he constantly demeans michael in s1 for doing what he can to survive and brands him as a dirty criminal that's wasting his life. Whenever Alex talks about his trauma, he's always punching down.
he didn't care what was best for Michael consistently. he stole the part of Michael's ship, ignoring the significance. he guilted Maria after he finds out she slept with Michael, knowing that she didn't know, and knowing that she'd push Michael away for him. All when Alex wasn't sure he truly wanted to be with Michael the entire season? After consistently playing hot and cold?
I think one of the worst offenses to me is that after Michael was reunited with the mother he thought was dead who was then killed less than 15 min later, Alex wanted to trauma dump that same night. Without comforting him and then arguing when Michael said he couldn't talk at the moment.
And Michael knows all of this. It's why he chooses Maria in season one. She's the healthier option and someone who can make him happy without the pain that Alex brings via previous trauma. to quote @dylanobrienisbatman when Michael says love is the worst thing that ever happened to me... "sir, you are an abuse victim."
12 notes Ā· View notes
dionboop Ā· 2 years
Text
PJO God's Fancast
Okay, I decided to do it, so here is my fancast for a bunch of the gods from the PJO series.
I'm not really trying to stick by the book descriptions of the gods or anything like that, instead, I'm going on pure vibes. That being said, for some of the gods (Namely Hestia) I've decided not to do a fancast because they are described in the book as appearing as children. I have included an Artemis fancast though! I also tried to give my reasoning for each choice, but tbh I have no idea how much it actually makes sense!
This list includes my fancasts for: Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Ares, Hermes, Hera, Athena, Dionysus, Demeter, and Artemis!
I'll post another with the rest of my fancasts later!
Tumblr media
Zeus - Nikolaj Coster Waldeau
I personally really loved the casting of Sean Bean as Zeus in the PJO movies (one of the only casting bits I liked.) So I kinda wanted to keep someone with a similar vibe, but also someone who could give off some new energy which is why I picked Nikolaj Coster Waldeu. I personally think he would kill this!
Tumblr media
Poseidon - Taika Waititi
So not to hate on other peoples fancasts, but a common fancast I see for Poseidon is to have Logan Lerman come back and play him. I hate this with a burning passion. I've never felt that he suited the PJO series, much less the Poseidon related people. Nothing against him, he just doesn't fit the vibe for me. I've also been yelling to my friends about how I just don't think a white person should play Poseidon, which is how we end up here. I just think that Taika Waititi has an amazing ability to balance humor with seriousness, something that I feel is needed for Poseidon. Not to mention he looks the part as well!
Tumblr media
Hades - Hiroyuki Sanada
My fancast for Hades changes so often that its really difficult for me to choose one at any time. However right now I feel fairly co fident about this choice which is Hiroyuki Sanada. First of all, he is an incredible actor and can play these more "serious roles" within stories. But he also can be more comedic when needed, not necessarily something 100% needed for Hades, but a nice addition. I feel that he gives off the vibes of a secluded God on the dead and I personally think he would nail this part.
Tumblr media
Ares - Oscar Isaac
Oscar Isaac has played a variety of roles over the years, and he has killed each one, but he has definitely played quite a few more toughed up roles and proved that he could do those. I think having someone who isn't stereotypically "threatening" and make them threatening for the roles of Ares would be the way to go. Also I feel like watching Oscar Isaac throw hands with a twelve year old would be funny so...yeah
Tumblr media
Hermes - Paul Bettany
If you've ever watched "A Knights Tale" then you will know that Paul Bettany would absolutely kill this role. He definitely has some of that trickster energy to him that I think is needed for Hermes, particularly I'm always drawn to when he played Chaucer in "A Knights Tale" as my reasoning for this. He can play both serious and "trickster" type very well.
Tumblr media
Hera - Janet Montgomery
Particularly her energy in "Salem" really reads as Hera to me. She has this sort of poise to her in every role that really reminds me of the way that I remember Hera being written in the books. That sort of stand tall figure definitely reads to me as Hera. I also think that in her roles she has played a darker side that could translate to Hera's wrath type of thing!
Tumblr media
Athena - Lupita Nyong'o
I don't really have much to say on this one. Lupita Nyong'o just has this energy of intelligence and wisdom around her, if that makes sense. So I always think of her as Athena.
Tumblr media
Dionysus - Pedro Pascal
With Pedro recently having played Dieter Bravo, I definitely think that he has solidified himself as my pick for Dionysus. Not only could he fulfill the usual energy of Dionysus, but also in the cases where we see Dionysus being more protective over the campers, he could nail that. After all, he is Hollywood's go to for playing the protective fathe figure role.
Tumblr media
Demeter - Audra McDonald
We're getting into the ones now that I really just chose based on vibes and vibes alone. I just think Audra McDonald would be a good Demeter mainly based on the myths as I don't believe she is in much of the actual PJO series. I just think she would kill it.
Tumblr media
Artemis - Maisie Williams
You're gonna look at me and tell me Arya Stark isn't basically already Artemis??? She's already played a role similar to Artemis and I think she is still young enough to play the younger-looking Artemis in the series.
11 notes Ā· View notes
cxncordia Ā· 2 months
Text
There were a lot of things I disliked and some others that I outright hated about Percy Jackson.
But there are three that I liked.
First was the fact that Hades is not portrayed as this brooding emo guy. Thank you.
Then the fact that Toby Stephens played Poseidon works really well. I mean, he fits the age and he does resemble a little to the kid actor playing Percy.
And the one thing that I loved was the fact that the actor playing Zeus is black.
Seriously.
I loathe most fancasts of Greek Gods because they are so fucking white even when Greeks aren't necessarily white. But oh well, years of colonialism and helenism surely helped you to cast Chad McWhite as Zeus and Sarah Whitebottom as Hera.
And don't get me started on how most of these fancasters always have a typecast for Apollo: blonde, six-pack, curly hair...
Fuck that.
That's the reason why my version of Apollo was Half-Latino and Half-British. Because I wanted somebody who could encompass an universal youthful beauty that fits the standards and yet doesn't at the same time. I will die on the hill that Sean Teale is perfect to play Apollo.
And I've also been a fan of a Black Zeus. Specially considering that one of his epithets is "Zeus Aethiops", or "Zeus the Gleaming/the Black".
So yes. Yes to all of this.
0 notes
batarangsoundsdumb Ā· 3 years
Text
batman fancast šŸ˜šŸ˜
alfred pennyworth - danny devito šŸ˜
Tumblr media
bruce wayne - robert pattinson (my beloved)šŸ’ž
Tumblr media
dick grayson - lil huddy šŸ„°šŸ¤©
Tumblr media
jason todd - james charles šŸ’ž
Tumblr media
tim drake - rico suave šŸ˜Ž
Tumblr media
damian wayne - mason ramsey (but only if he dies his hair brown like ian wayne :-)
Tumblr media
commissioner gordon - chris evans šŸ„µšŸ’—
Tumblr media
547 notes Ā· View notes
therealvinelle Ā· 3 years
Note
Whatā€™s your fancast for the Cullens since you despise the live action casting
For this one, we must assume that the time-space continuum has collapsed and I am able to pluck any actor or model I want from the past century and stuff them in my movie. That, or I stole a TARDIS.
In order of the alphabet:
Alice: Twiggy. Emaciated but beautiful, her strange features shouldnā€™t come together so well but they do. An odd-looking, unconventional, tiny beauty.
Bella: Kristen Stewart was a good call, she problem was she played the wrong character. My fancast for her would be a young Jodie Foster. She has that frail, sensitive, expressive beauty going, easy to overlook at first glance but grows more beautiful the more you see her. Sheā€™s a phenomenal actress, very good at silent vulnerability.
Carlisle: I expect no one to be with me on this one, but: David Bowie.Ā Otherworldly beautiful, something ineffably alien about the man, his face makes you drop whatever youā€™re doing, and thereā€™s so much happening in those eyes.Ā I could believe that Bella found this face blinding like the sun. As an additional plus, he looks distinctly British.Ā (Second ref).
(Shoutout to a young Peter Oā€™Toole for also having that certain kind of aura I would expect from Carlisle. Plus, highly attractive. Heā€™s already my fancast for Tom Riddle, though, and itā€™s embarrassing to always be pointing to the same guy.)
Edward: Robert Pattinson was a great cast, though he was a bit old already in Twilight, and like Steward he did not play a character I recognize. Cedric Diggory is far more Edward than what Pattinson played in the movie. If I had to come up with an alternartive, Iā€™d go Timothee Chalamet. Beautiful, and the kind girls flock to.
Emmett: Jean-Claude van Damme. A ruggedly handsome muscle mountain. Dudebro, but imposing.Ā (Second ref)
Esme: Hard to cast, because not a lot of people make me thinkĀ ā€œAh, yes, this is Snow White in the fleshā€.Ā Rachel Stirling as Caroline Crale in ā€œFive Little Pigsā€ is my best suggestion for her, because I can see that in her. Caroline is older, a bit rounded, yet easily the most beautiful woman in the room. Hers is a face you write poetry about. In addition to this she is every inch the ideal woman for her time and culture, so dignified and good it hurts. (Photo ref)
Jasper: Clint Eastwood, hands down. The easiest fancast of all the Cullens, to the point where if I were casting for a Twilight reboot today I would still cast Eastwood, even though heā€™s in his nineties. The movie Unforgiven is the reason why. Throughout his career, Eastwood played these terrifying, badass men surrounded by violence. His life is garbage and he knows it, but heā€™s top dog in the dogfight. Dirty Harry especially comes to mind, Harry is a cop whoā€™s earned his moniker because he does what others wonā€™t, even as he hates every inch of this life. Unforgiven is the movie where he got away from it all, heā€™s found happiness as a humble hog farmer raising his two young children. Just, the way Eastwood plays these characters, the way he makes what would be an unremarkable action movie badass into a tired soldier powering through for reasons he doesnā€™t quite remember, all the while having this confident air of the top dog whoā€™s won every fight and knows heā€™ll win this one as well, makes him spot on Jasper. Also the fact that heā€™s ridiculously good-looking.
Rosalie: Dianne Argon is painfully beautiful, sheā€™s every ideal at once. More, her demeanor isā€¦ sheā€™s good at the haunted thing. Those who have seen her in Glee will know that sheā€™s extremely good at being fine on the surface, even when sheā€™s completely unhappy - and you can tell at once glance sheā€™s unhappy. As the inverse of Foster sheā€™s easy to dismiss as just beautiful, then you truly look at her and sheā€™s so much more.
165 notes Ā· View notes
thevalleyisjolly Ā· 3 years
Text
Ok, Iā€™ve rewritten this post several times because I really want this to be a productive and respectful discussion, but this is a conversation that does need to be started.Ā  Iā€™ve been thinking about the whole cultural appropriation story line in this season of The Unsleeping City so far, and of course I think itā€™s great that Cody is starting to realize why thatā€™s wrong and that Murph is making it explicitly clear that it is wrong, but I want to reorient the conversation away from Cody now and talk about Ricky as a Japanese-American character.
Because when Zac went ā€œJust to paint a picture for you...ā€ during the museum fight episode, there was quite a bit of surprise from non-Asian people in the fandom that this was really a serious issue, and one that Ricky would be bothered by or speak up about.Ā  But why wouldnā€™t he?Ā  I mean, the character is Japanese-American, and so is the player.Ā  Doesnā€™t it make perfect sense that he would at least be a little bothered by a white person appropriating Japanese culture?Ā  Asian fans certainly noticed and pointed it out before that episode aired.Ā  Ricky/Zac certainly noticed - go back through the episodes and observe how every time Cody pulled out a kunai or threw a shuriken, Ricky was cringing or facepalming with an uncomfortable laugh.Ā  Even with seven different camera perspectives to watch at the same time, it should have been pretty clear in the fandom that this was an ongoing issue that would bother and was bothering Ricky.
And I think there are several different facets to this, but the one I want to address is how thereā€™s a tendency in fandom to ignore or erase Rickyā€™s Japanese heritage.Ā  Not literally (although there is a particular sting every time I see another Ricky fancast where the actor is of another Asian heritage than Japanese - Asian people are not interchangeable).Ā  But especially prior to Season 2, there was a general trend in the fandom that liked to simplify Rickyā€™s character and overlook him as a complex player character because of traits that are very common in East Asian immigrant cultures.
Perhaps itā€™s because my heritage is East Asian and Iā€™ve had more exposure to general cultural customs and behaviours among East Asian immigrants, but Zacā€™s portrayal of Ricky has always read as a very obvious Asian-American child of immigrants to me (and, yā€™know, Zac and Ricky are actually Asian-American children of immigrants).Ā  Not expressing negative emotions out loud, not verbally articulating thoughts and feelings but expressing them through actions, deferring to other peoplesā€™ needs first instead of expressing his own wants because itā€™s not about him.Ā  With the caveat that Iā€™m Chinese and not Japanese, these are common practices that Iā€™ve observed in my own family, among friends and acquaintances (of various Asian heritages including but not limited to Chinese), in broader experiences with other East Asian immigrants.
(Asia is not a monolith and Iā€™m not familiar with the immigrant cultures and experiences of people from other Asian heritages.Ā  I specify East Asian here because that is broadly what I can speak on and because Ricky is Japanese, but other Asian people please feel free to discuss your experiences as well)
And obviously, these are not monolith traits observed at all times, Iā€™ve definitely met plenty of East Asian immigrants who did express their emotions loudly, who used their words, who were assertive about their own needs and wants (this is not the post to be getting into different generations of immigration and the culture differences between those generations).Ā  And it also depends on the context - from my own experience, in private within families, both emotions and words can get extremely loud (if you dare to risk the wrath of your elders by arguing with them!)Ā  But my point is that the habits I pointed out above are still relatively common in East Asian immigrant cultures, even if not all individuals follow them at all times.
Particularly prior to Season 2, there was a common perspective in the fandom, usually couched in ā€œuwu, I love that Zac is playing a hot dummy!!ā€ that would go along the lines of ā€œRicky doesnā€™t have a character arc, he doesnā€™t get into conflicts with other people, he doesnā€™t say anything and is just happy to be there, heā€™s a shallow character whoā€™s just a himbo.ā€Ā  All of which Iā€™d dispute, (*insert post here about Ricky as a character reclaiming Asian masculinity*), but I want to focus on how the main traits -refraining from overt emotions, remaining reserved in speech, not bringing up his own needs and wants- that were brought up and used to simplify and dismiss Rickyā€™s character were traits which are commonly found in East Asian immigrant communities.Ā  The whole ā€œremaining reserved/trying to avoid conflictā€ is something a lot of East Asian-American kids pick up at home because what you say or donā€™t say isnā€™t as important as what you do or donā€™t do.
And I mean, so much of Ricky is about doing things for people, showing his feelings through his actions, not his words. Ā Just because he wasnā€™t getting into PC conflict in Season 1, or expressing his emotions in the same ways as other PCs, doesnā€™t mean he was just a silent, cheerful himbo.Ā  Which thereā€™s nothing wrong with being a himbo, and it can be particularly empowering in Rickyā€™s case as an Asian man (see above linked post about Asian masculinity), but thatā€™s not all there is to Rickyā€™s character!Ā  And donā€™t get me wrong, I personally love that part of his ongoing character arc in Season 2 is speaking up about his feelings and expressing to other people what he wants (because thereā€™s the ā€œAmericanā€ part of the Asian-American experience thatā€™s not just about having Asian heritage but is also about negotiating that relationship in a place with different norms and customs). Ā But it doesnā€™t negate the ā€œAsianā€ part of ā€œAsian-Americanā€ either, which does impact and shape the way Ricky interacts with people and the world.
In hindsight, I donā€™t think itā€™s a coincidence that interest and meta in Ricky skyrocketed once he did start being more vocal and assertive in Season 2, which are common traits in many Western cultures.Ā  And itā€™s not the only reason that thereā€™s a deeper interest in Ricky now (shout out to all the Asian fans and allies whoā€™ve been really diving into Rickyā€™s character this season!) and I choose to believe in good faith that it isnā€™t intentional or malicious (audiences do tend to gravitate more towards tangible moments of conversation and conflict rather than background acting).Ā  But I think we as fans need to start questioning why as a whole, we really didnā€™t start giving deeper thought to Ricky until he began displaying more typically Western traits, because I think itā€™s emblematic of how, very subtly and unconsciously, we are used to privileging white ā€œAmericanā€ behaviour and ignoring or glossing over Asian (immigrant) traits.
In many ways, Ricky prior to Season 2 (and very arguably up until the museum fight), has been perceived in the general fandom as a sort of post-racial American-melting-pot character.Ā  Fans donā€™t wholly ignore that heā€™s Japanese-American, you canā€™t really do that when his family name is ā€œMatsuiā€ and when the Season 1 finale showed that his interactions with the American Dream pretty strongly involved his parentsā€™ immigrant experience.Ā  But knowing intellectually that Ricky is Asian doesnā€™t always translate to actually perceiving him as an Asian person with all the implications and racial dynamics that entails.
An example of how this manifests: Ricky and Esther become a canon couple.Ā  Numerous posts begin to appear (and periodically still do) that express opinions along the lines of Ricky/Esther being the only tolerable ā€œhetā€ couple.Ā  Ignoring the fact that we donā€™t know Estherā€™s sexuality and we only have an offhand Ztream comment for Ricky, Ricky/Esther is a canonical interracial relationship between two non-white people, a Japanese man and a black woman.Ā  Interracial relationships are already extremely poorly represented in media, to say nothing of interracial relationships between non-white people.Ā Ā  Yet we overlook the racial dynamics and only focus on the perceived queerness (or not) of the ship.
Or, for another example, taking the discussion on cultural appropriation and making it all about Codyā€™s flaws and character development, rather than considering how it affects Ricky as a Japanese man to see a white man disrespecting a part of his cultural heritage.
Anyways, I really urge D20 fans, especially if youā€™re not Asian, to start questioning and challenging how you really perceive characters, what kind of characteristics you tend to privilege and be drawn to and why, and what kind of fandom environment you shape in your interactions with the show and with other fans.Ā  This is not to say that Ricky should be everyoneā€™s favourite character or that you canā€™t dislike him, but it is important to think about why we have the preferences that we do.Ā  I especially urge you to remember that Ricky Matsui is a Japanese-American character, that this was a deliberate choice which has been repeatedly brought up by Zac (who is a Japanese-American actor), and that you cannot and should not ignore Rickyā€™s heritage when you think and talk about him.Ā 
(And if you think Ricky is being an ā€œassholeā€ to Cody just for being, frankly, mildly perturbed in his direction because Cody spent most of the season so far being very offensive to Rickyā€™s cultural heritage, I really encourage you to think critically about your opinions and why you hold them.Ā  And if, after thinking critically, you still donā€™t see why theyā€™re wrong, please donā€™t let the door hit you on the way out.Ā  Your conscious racism is not something that is welcome in this fandom, and Asian fans are not here to teach you better)
((White and non-Asian people can and should reblog this, but donā€™t clown around.Ā  Productive, respectful discussion is welcome.Ā  Asian fans are more than welcome to add their perspectives/agree/disagree, especially people with Japanese heritage))
374 notes Ā· View notes
gimme-mor Ā· 3 years
Text
ACOTAR THINK PIECE: VISIBLE TO INVISIBLE
*DISCLAIMER*
Please take the time to read this post in its entirety and truly reflect on the message I am trying to send before commenting. My goal is to use my background in Gender and Womenā€™s Studies to deconstruct the comments I have seen on social media, bring awareness to the ACOTAR fandom, and encourage critical thinking and self-reflection. I WILL NOT tolerate anyone who tries to twist my words and say I am attacking real life people. In fact, I AM CRITIQUING THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES NOT THE PEOPLE USING THE ARGUMENTS.
Itā€™s no secret that SJM struggles with diversity, often opting for ambiguous words like ā€œtanā€ or ā€œgolden skinā€ to describe her characters. But over the course of her writing career, she has made efforts to write inclusively; and though her representation falls on the side of bad representation at times, she has made it clear in the text if characters are non-white, describing them with varying shades of brown skin or having dark skin in general. As it stands, the ACOTAR world has a limited number of characters of color, so itā€™s confusing to see them whitewashed in fanart, fancasts, and fan edits. When whitewashing accusations are brought up in the fandom, they are dismissed with statements like:
It doesnā€™t matter
Donā€™t like it? Ignore it and move on
This is art and itā€™s open to interpretation
As a person of color, you donā€™t see me complaining
This is just how I imagined the character
The text doesnā€™t say the characters have ethnic facial features
Fans can cast whoever they want to portray fictional characters the way they imagined them
Itā€™s just fancasting, itā€™s not that deep
Not everything is about race
If you want people of color to be depicted in the books, go read books specifically about characters of color
Fancasting characters of color as white is not erasing anyoneā€™s race because theyā€™re not real
Theyā€™re fictional characters regardless of the bookā€™s description, so who cares if people imagine characters of color differently
Western society has grown so accustomed to the media being dominated by white representations that envisioning a character as white becomes the norm, even when faced with evidence to the contrary. Although nearly all of the characters of color in the ACOTAR series have been subjected to whitewashing, only a handful of illustrations accurately depict Vassa as a woman of color. It can be assumed that because Vassa has features society deems as inherently white (i.e. having red hair, blue eyes, and freckled skin), it is acceptable for the fandom to imagine her character as white despite her having golden-brown skin. This mentality is harmful because it suggests that naturally colored hair, light colored eyes, and freckles are exclusively white features and that people of color with these features donā€™t exist. The act of whitewashing characters of color in the ACOTAR series marginalizes fans of color in a space that is inherently rooted in white-centeredness, and downplays the impact whitewashing has on fans of color. The continued erasure of characters of color in the series not only normalizes the belief that fandom is a space for white people primarily and people of color secondarily, but it perpetuates the notion that whiteness is better and more palatable in visual media.
From employment to education to healthcare to media, race and discussions about race are inescapable because racism affects everything in society. The media has a history of prioritizing whiteness and white narratives often at the expense of people of color. Racebending, which can be understood as changing the race of a character, occurs not only in fanworks such as fanart, fancasts, and fanfiction, but even in visual media. It allows characters that have been traditionally white to be reinterpreted as people of color in an effort to diversify casts and counter whiteness as the default in both visual media and fanworks. Unfortunately, racebending itself gives way for problematic justifications and assumptions. Whitewashing is a form of racebending that erases characters of color from media and replaces them with white actors. The act of whitewashing characters of color is commonly excused with declarations of artistic or personal interpretations of characters despite the text stating they are not white, which ultimately diminishes the impact whitewashing has on people of color. Aside from that, racebending traditionally white characters as people of color has been framed as an issue that is just as offensive and bad as whitewashing characters of color. In the article ā€œ8 Things White Fans Can Do to Make Fandom More Inclusiveā€, it states:
ā€œ. . .You could argue that people often reimagine white characters as characters of color (popularly known as ā€˜racebendingā€™), so why not do the opposite? The short answer is this: When people racebend a character, they create more diversity. If theyā€™re fans of color, they do so to see themselves in the fictional media they love. When people whitewash a character, they decrease diversity. Theyā€™re erasing a character of color and, whether consciously or unconsciously, sending the message that theyā€™d relate more to the character if the character was white. . .ā€ (https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/making-fandom-more-inclusive/).
The belief that racebending traditionally white characters as people of color carries the same racist implications as whitewashing characters of color is equivalent to arguments that proclaim the existence of reverse racism. Racism and prejudice have often been used interchangeably in society, causing racism to be simplified as one group not liking another. Racism involves the marginalization and oppression of racial groups based on a socially constructed racial hierarchy and it combines with socialized power to carry out systematic discrimination through institutional policies and practices. White people can be victims of prejudice but never victims of racism because, unlike people of color, prejudice against white people doesnā€™t lead to structural, systemic, and lasting disadvantages in education, healthcare, career prospects, and other societal structures. When the element of power is removed from discussions about racism, the definition of racism becomes overly simplified and ignores the real and damaging impact it has on the lives of marginalized people. The impulse behind reverse racism proponents and arguments against racebending traditionally white characters as people of color are motivated, consciously or unconsciously, by the desire to center whiteness in the media while marginalizing people of color in the process. Whitewashing characters of color is incomparable to racebending traditionally white characters as people of color because whitewashing contributes to the continued erasure of people of color in the media. Moreover, racebending traditionally white characters as people of color would only have the same societal effect as whitewashing characters of color if white people faced the same systematic and institutionalized mistreatment experienced by people of color.Ā 
Itā€™s important to be aware of the ramifications of whitewashing and to not view it as insignificant because whitewashing characters of color is rooted in racist ideals and is a method of preserving white dominance in the media. Whitewashing characters of color in a society that favors whiteness is extremely problematic because: it implies that characters of color are inferior to white characters and arenā€™t as relatable as them; reinforces colorist views that deem brown and dark skin as unattractive; and feeds into the notion that eurocentric standards of beauty are superior to ethnic features. SJM isnā€™t always clear with her character descriptions in relation to skin tone but when she is, the ACOTAR fandom should take notice because when characters are described as not white then theyā€™re not white.
108 notes Ā· View notes
serpenteve Ā· 3 years
Note
Hi! A lot of antis say that if the Darkling was poc, we would not love him that much. I was wondering if you could give your opinion on that please?
I don't know that I've seen "if the darkling was a poc he wouldn't be as loved" take as much as I've seen people antagonizing Darklina shippers because he's played by a white actor in the Netflix adaption and acting as if both Mal and Alina weren't both white in the books.
The first take is probably coming from a general sense of frustration that white men tend to be able to get away with a lot more compared to their POC counterparts. But I don't think this particular take has much bearing on the Grisha trilogy given all the characters were white in the books and Darklina was always the most popular ship. It's not as if the sole appeal of Darklina only comes from Ben Barnes although I know the antis like to pretend it is.
I find the anti's preoccupation with the race of the show's characters and using that as some kind of proof of their moral superiority not only incredibly exhausting but also just as superficial and performative as the way the show deals with racism itself.
Ironically, before the show racelifted the characters, literally the only character that was speculated to be a man of color was the Darkling himself. Bardugo likely *intended* for him to be perceived as white but we all know how little the fandom cares about her intentions. There's a throwaway line in Demon in the Woods that says "He spoke fluent Shu and Kerch, and could pass as either" that had fans speculating that he could be Shu or half-Shu, especially considering how little information there was about his biological father and that Baghra jumped from place to place. I remember having conversations with mutuals at the time where we all briefly wondered if he could be part Shu based on his book description. My personal headcanon was that he is not even a native Ravkan and his inexplicable love of Ravka, a country that has consistently treated him like crap, comes from desperately wanting a home and sense of belonging. His whole experience of being othered as a Grisha by the local muggles and being othered as a scary shadow summoner by the Grisha themselves lends itself to a metaphor for being a person of color or being part of any minority group. The Darkling literally makes more sense as a person of color and you can still find MOC fancasts for the Darkling under the old #alarkling tag.
But now I'm seeing people either be completely ignorant of this fandom history or pretend like racelifting Alina and Mal magically fixes the problems (and racial caricatures) of the original source material. Alina's racelift is much more organic than Mal's since Alina's parents lived close to the Shu Han-Ravka border anyway. For some reason, they changed this in the show's universe to have her parents die crossing the Fold rather than die in one of the King's border wars šŸ™„Just so you don't forget who the real antagonist of this show is supposed to be, I guess. Mal's racelift seems entirely superficial. I haven't looked into the background of his casting but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't originally intend for him to be a man of color and then when Archie got cast, they had to sprinkle some random lines into the script. Case in point: Mal only faces racism at the orphanage alongside with Alina. The racism of that scene literally only exists to show why Mal and Alina would be drawn to each other and then it's never brought up again. Mal doesn't face any racism in the Army like Alina does. Mal is able to be judged by other characters based on his actions, bravery, skills, and choices whereas Alina repeatedly judged and othered for her appearance. When we pan out to the other POC characters (Zoya, Inej, Jesper, Nadia, Arken) we find that either these characters also face zero racism OR the script selectively picks and chooses when a POC character will face racism and when they won't. Conveniently, when these other POC characters do face racism (like Inej when she stabs Polina), it's only to manipulate the audience.
All of this, of course, is not even touching on the fact that the main antagonist and central conflict of the series is crushing a rebellion led by the leader of a marginalized group while the heroine hitches her wagon to the imperial monarchy. There is such a massive disconnect between the plot and characters and the show racelifting the heroine and her love interest is coat of very fake woke paint over an incredibly anti-Grisha and anti-minority story.
70 notes Ā· View notes
kingthekj Ā· 3 years
Text
I fear that most Actors/Models of Color that white people can tolerate or like to add in their fancasts because of inclusion or (they literally don't know any other Actors of Color) will only help the actors but worsen people's concept of Racism by it. Racism isn't always inherently violent. It's a mindset. A thought process. There are microaggressions or just how people think and what they associate people of color with. Black women who are naturally muscular or just want to be muscular are weirdly fetishized with "Step on me." or the "I want her to [insert violent but sexual act]".
Or, and I'm not Asian but I've seen this but if I get something wrong lmk, pale skin Asian people are not treated as the adults they are but instead they are treated like dolls. Asian men especially are infantilized especially in K-pop groups (I'm throwing a stone at a hornet's nest by saying this but fuck it). Same with lighter-skinned Asian women. They only use words like cute or innocent or tiny when these are in fact grown-ass people that were talking about.
These actors have either euro-centric features allowing white people to fine them attractive or they are fetishized or infantilized or sexualized or put on a pedestal. It's the media version of "I'm not racist, I have black/brown friends!"
If you interact with a person of color in any form and all you can do is either sexualize them fetishize them or infantilize them, you have a racial bias. I am not calling you racist I am saying that you need to evaluate why you only see light skin Asian man as precious why you see dark skin women as always independent strong and unbreakable and why you only see black men sexually and only talk about their bodies and not their attributes and personality and accomplishments. It's a shame for people like Anthony Mackie who is incredibly talented at his craft to only be reduced to a sex image and object and to be underrated in his own show where he is one if not the titular and main character.
And it goes without saying but if you are not in this category then this post isn't about you. If it don't apply, let it fly.
Zendaya, MBJ, Dev Patel, Reece King, Booboo Steward, Steven Yeun, Anthony Mackie, etc. And they throw in Lupita Nyong'o or Danai Gurira or Winston Duke for the dash of dark skin are just some people I've seen this happen to.
And this post is slightly skewed towards black people because I am a black person so I cannot and will not speak for the people of color and their experiences. Any other people of color would like to elaborate or bring up other points I didn't talk about then please I encourage you to.
White people don't clown on this fucking post.
134 notes Ā· View notes