#tolkien language

[artist-issues]

I also would like people to give more appreciation to the great thematic unity in all of The Lord of the Rings. The idea is “do what good you can with what you are given.” Usually your abilities and your chances seem horribly small, even though your responsibility is so enormous. The minutes, the little decisions, the days, the small towns, the small characters, matter the most. The fate of the whole big world of good and evil and languages and races and heroes and villains all hangs on what’s done by a little scholar and his gardener.

#It’s every bit as complicated and uncomplicated as that #Tolkien might be obsessed with little details like history and languages for every region of his made-up world #but that’s because he knew that little details matter in life and in literature because they make up reality. #the lord of the rings #lotr #lord of the rings #the shire #Mordor #Aragorn #Frodo #middle-earth #Sam gamgee #Sméagol #one ring #Sauron #Gandalf

[velvet4510]

Here’s the thing.

Many Bagginshield shippers, especially in fics, focus on how Bilbo never got over Thorin, to the point where some describe Bilbo’s life as sad and unfulfilled because of that loss.

Don’t get me wrong: I do agree that he suffered terrible loss and undeserved torment by the Ring. And the fact that he never marries probably does have some connection to the memory of Thorin.

But, y’all, don’t forget or ignore the fact that, in Tolkien’s text, Bilbo does move on from grief and live the rest of his life well.

He does not become bitter from his pain. He retains his kind heart.

He is generous with his wealth, helping in every way he can the very community that ostracizes him.

He sees in Frodo a kindred spirit and takes it upon himself to be the parental figure that Frodo so badly needs as an orphan.

He and Frodo develop an uncle-nephew (really more like father-son) relationship built on trust, keeping no secrets from each other, to the level where he tells Frodo the truth about his encounter with Gollum. (And probably the truth about his feelings for Thorin, too.)

He and Frodo have so much fun, going for walks every day, studying the Elvish languages, and throwing big birthday parties to show the community a good time. It’s plain to see that caring for Frodo filled that massive void inside Bilbo, finally giving him someone to love and devote himself to looking after, after his first chance at that (albeit the first being a different kind of love) was taken from him.

He does not see himself as superior to the lower class despite his riches, and always treats the Gamgees with the utmost respect.

He teaches Sam to read and write.

He tells his story to the younger hobbits, inspiring more of them to want to learn more about the outside world and not be so sheltered and ignorant…an effort which ultimately saves Middle-earth because the Travelers learn from him to be curious and interested in the lands outside the Shire, and he inspires them daily, as they constantly say to themselves “if Bilbo could go there and back again and face great danger, so can we.”

He even learns to love having a tarnished reputation, ultimately taking advantage of being “mad” to play a fun prank.

When he is no longer at rest in the Shire, he gifts Frodo all his property which will ensure Frodo is set for life, and through all his passive aggressive gifts to his relatives, he gives the Gaffer genuinely useful items that he knows will help him, including ointment for creaky joints.

He gets a peaceful retirement among his Elven friends, which he spends writing his memoir so that future generations will know all about his lost friends.

And ultimately, he embraces the special gift of an exception from the Valar and rare permission to set foot in the Blessed Realm for one last adventure, where he will continue to look after his beloved nephew.

And the fact is, he never would’ve gotten any of these things if he’d stayed in Erebor. He would never have developed that special bond with Frodo - he may never have even met him - and consequently, Frodo may never have met Sam.

Yes, a lot of his life was lonely and somber. But much more of it, even after experiencing such a tragedy, was full of love and joy and fun and excitement. He became an invaluable caretaker and mentor to the next generation of hobbits, got a taste of fatherhood, passed on his expertise and his story, and spent his last years surrounded by friends and family.

Bilbo Baggins may have lost the love of his life, but he did not give up on life itself, and he lived a full one. Don’t forget that.

#lotr #jrr tolkien #lotr books #lord of the rings #the hobbit #bilbo baggins #frodo baggins #bilbo and frodo #hobbits #samwise gamgee #elvish language #red book #the valar #valinor #tolkien elves #bagginshield #thorin x bilbo #samfro #frodo x sam

[scribefindegil]

As much as I adore conlangs, I really like how the Imperial Radch books handle language. The book is entirely in English but you're constantly aware that you're reading a "translation," both of the Radchaai language Breq speaks as default, and also the various other languages she encounters. We don't hear the words but we hear her fretting about terms of address (the beloathed gendering on Nilt) and concepts that do or don't translate (Awn switching out of Radchaai when she needs a language where "citizen," "civilized," and "Radchaai person" aren't all the same word) and noting people's registers and accents. The snatches of lyrics we hear don't scan or rhyme--even, and this is what sells it to me, the real-world songs with English lyrics, which get the same "literal translation" style as everything else--because we aren't hearing the actual words, we're hearing Breq's understanding of what they mean. I think it's a cool way to acknowledge linguistic complexity and some of the difficulties of multilingual/multicultural communication, which of course becomes a larger theme when we get to the plot with the Presgar Translators.

#imperial radch #also a great example of the 'you don't have to be Tolkien' phenomenon #if you want to think about linguistic differences by building all the languages in your setting #and being able to explain what those differences are through actual texts in the language in question #that's AWESOME #but it's not the only way to do it #it's also interesting because of course this style only works in book form #everyone's speaking different languages but in a written account they're all 'translated' for you #but of course if it was a TV series they would all have to be speaking a language the audience understands #(or you *would* have to go wild with conlangs) #and i think that's really cool as well-- #how for a series where song is so central we don't actually hear any of the actual in-universe words or any of the music #it's all been filtered #and again you know this is happening but seeing the examples of how real songs--the shape hymns and 'L'homme Arme'--are presented #makes you a lot more viscerally aware of how limited your perspective is #it's good #ann leckie i love you

[trashanstuff]

Tales from far away lands

Bella and Bungo have known eachother since they were kids.

As the respectable Baggins he is, Bungo isn’t at all the adventurous type but he still fascinated with about heroes and creatures that roamed middle earth. He eventually tells to Bella about them and she feels compelled to go see those far away places for herself

#belladonna took #the hobbit fanart #the hobbit #Bungo baggins #bilbo baggins #I'm sorry if its not very clear #english is not my first language #tolkien fanart #tolkien

[jay-wasstuff]

Le abdollen. (You're late.) You look terrible.

Hannon Le. (Thank you.)

#the two towers #still one of my favourite scene from the trilogy #everything from body language - to the intimacy of their hands - the way aragorn just looks at legolas and legolas' smile #also my pics are so clear #lotr #lord of the rings #legolas #aragorn #aralas #jrr tolkien #tolkien #legolas x aragorn #legolas greenleaf #orlando bloom #viggo mortensen #oh and eowyns reaction

[toskarin]

forewarning that this is mostly just an observational ramble

one thing I've gathered from looking around older western fantasy otaku sites is that, presumably in large part because of the order in which things entered mainstream consciousness, sauron is talked about pretty consistently as the final boss of the lord of the rings

technically, this is true of everywhere, but I want to emphasise that it is extremely common to see younger fantasy otaku a decade or two ago use ラスボス when explaining who he is, as a primary descriptor

[before going any further on this, it probably bears mentioning that the japanese translation of lord of the rings is a bit divisive. when it comes up, it's either in the context of how impressive the translation is (skews older) or in how unreadable it is (skews younger), because it's translated into antiquity prose. apparently exceptionally so, even for a fantasy novel, so it was very much extreme nerd shit]

a big part of this is, of course, just the idea of the final boss having more awareness than tolkien at the time the movies were coming out. I imagine almost the exact same thing would happen more or less anywhere that video games hit mainstream nerd awareness before tolkien did, but there's something else that I think might have something to do with it, because if you're looking at old enough threads, you notice that not only is sauron being explained as the final boss, but this is being mentioned in contrast to morgoth not being the final boss

which seems a bit random (morgoth doesn't exactly come up enough in lotr proper to cause this confusion), if you don't know that angband, where morgoth is the final boss and sauron is just the midboss, was pretty popular with western fantasy otaku. well, popular in the way that cult classics are, but you know how it goes

with that in mind, it makes sense that it was (at one point, before tolkien was more accessible through other channels) something people called each other fake fans over

so in a kind of interesting way, namedropping sauron in fantasy otaku spaces that skewed younger (for a time) was almost equivalent to namedropping morgoth in western fantasy nerd spaces. that all kind of stops being the case once you have the peter jackson movies immediately at hand, though

there's also the fact that, because it's a little harder to read lord of the rings in japanese, someone who's casually into the book is much more likely to also go ahead and read the silmarillion, which helped rings of power get incredibly popular with older audiences in japan when it came out. as a fun side effect of all this, there's a bit more morgoth x sauron shipping around

#also should be clarified that the specific way that tolkien is translated in japanese is like #seemingly made to create a generational divide in people who have strong opinions on whether you should use kanji in western location names #same argument as always: do you translate for western sound or period-appropriate language #and its answer is a resounding 'both'

[tilions]

Do you ever think about how none of the Hobbits died in the Shire? They all left it when their time had come, as if they couldn't bear it to face death in the land they all went through so much for.

I mean, imagine how those goodbyes must have been for them and for their families. We know of Sam and Elanor but what about Pippin and his son Faramir? Or Merry and his potential children? How did they say goodbye to them, presuming that they knew this journey east would be their last one? That they would never see their loved ones again? Had they made peace with that?

Also the way how their final destination mirror eachother: Frodo, Bilbo and Sam's last destination, the undying lands, the west, the home of immortal heroes from ages past; and Merry and Pippin's last destination, Minas Tirith, the east, the home of mortal heroes of the present.

Just thinking about the fact that none of the Hobbits stayed in the Shire until the very end

#tolkien #lotr #the hobbit #frodo baggins #sam gamgee #merry brandybuck #pippin took #bilbo baggins #i keep coming back to this thought from time to time #and i can't put my feelings into words properly (trust me i tried in multiple different languages) #this is the best I've got

[silmarillion-ways-to-die]

#Tolkien's languages #quenya #sindarin #tolkien legendarium #tolkien #silmarillion #lord of the rings #lotr #lotr rop #lotr trop #fantasy #jrr tolkien #the hobbit

[amethysttribble]

A part of me wants to update the Thorn post, because I have a better understanding of how it worked in the English linguistic shift, but it’ll probably never bear the fruit I want it to and I’m tired, so alas

#please please please know though #that is you are a native English speaker #the way the Nolofinweans are talking would be the language to sound SO strange to your ears #not the feanorians #please please know #Feanor wasn’t saying ‘a thnake thithered across the road’ (a snake slithered across the road’) #all the other noldor started saying ‘se child sanked me sough I did nothing’ (the child thanked me though I did nothing) #guys I cannot impress on you enough that we still use the thorn on english we just write it differently #tolkien #Tribble post

[kylobith]

The Languages and Linguistics of Middle Earth

Gin suilannon!

In the context of my minor programme in Celtic studies and languages, I am following a course called From Táin to Tolkien and Beyond, and today, we had a guest lecture about the languages of Middle Earth, more particularly Sindarin. Since it might be useful to some of you (out of curiosity or for your fanfictions), I thought I would share my notes and my conversations with the guest lecturer here. This was a very linguistics-driven lecture, so I will try to add explanations where I can and, hopefully, make the information more accessible. If you have any questions, you can react to this post or DM me! And beware, this is a very long post. So, without further ado, here is what I learnt.

✽ Notes on Historical Linguistics, Manuscript Tradition and the Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth by Dr. Aaron Griffith

✣ Shared histories of languages and manuscripts are often visualised with tree diagrams to see the evolution and how they branch out

✣ Little material was published about Middle-Earth and the Elves during Tolkien's lifetime -> Most of it is part of the Legendarium -> Main periods of writing (here we only mentioned the writing processes or when a project was finished, not when they were published): - The Lost Tales (1916-1926): infancy of the Elvish languages - Sketch of The Silmarillion (1926-1930): revision of The Lost Tales and some changes brought to Elvish - Quenta Noldorinna (1930): further reworking and significant expansion of the sketch - The Hobbit (1933): originally intended as an unrelated story - Quenta Silmarillion (1937): fullest expansion of The Lost Tales and significant refinement of the languages - The Lord of the Rings (1950s): use of the mythology of all the earlier writings as a basis, reworking of the languages and massive changes in their interrelations - The Silmarillion (post-1948): based on Quenta Silmarillion, which was heavily revised after The Lord of the Rings

✣ Tolkien rarely dated his works and compositions, so it is difficult to establish a precise creative process or linear chronology of the changes brought to Middle Earth. However, he did leave us some clues: - Absolute Dating -> occasionally, Tolkien did attach dates to his manuscripts, but it remained a rare occurrence - Relative Chronology -> some compositions are dependent on changes to earlier works, so a logical chronology can be estimated (this can also be made possible by the scrap papers from Tolkien's personal records and drafts) - Handwriting -> can be misleading, but it can be a helpful tool to date pieces of distinctly different chronological layers - Nomenclature -> Tolkien frequently changed character names, so particular names can be matched with letters and extracts in which they appear - Christopher Tolkien -> his manuscript order from the twelve-volume The History of Middle-Earth series

✣ Critical asymmetry -> languages frequently split into dialects and other languages of their own, but when manuscripts are retraced according to their version of the same text (think of Arthurian romances and oral tradition being recorded at different points in time and therefore presenting different themes or characters), narratives (stories) cannot be regrouped as easily -> However, there are 2 relations between stories and languages: 1. How changes can propagate in a language system or narrative tradition 2. The relations of language families in real- (at the time of composition) or book-time (time as it passes in the stories)

✣ In natural language, change moves forward in time. This is a trend which also applies for errors in manuscript copies (irregularities in tropes, character changes, etc.)

✣ In stories, a plot development can be carried forward just like a sound can evolve in a language. However, change can occur backwards, too. For example, if a character's ancestry is modified, this can change the whole manuscript history of the story being written (by this, understand that the story must be readapted to fit the new information to maintain some consistency).

✣ Historical linguistics is concerned with the study of language change and the formation of language families (Romance languages, Germanic languages, Slavic languages, etc.). It does so by examining and comparing systems from different languages to see if they can be retraced to an original, common system (Welsh and Irish stemming from Proto-Celtic, for instance).

✣ Some of Tolkien's languages were intended to be related. The following languages and dialects are related in a clear, 'historical' structure, which mimics the way that languages evolve in our world: - Quenya - Sindarin - Lindarin - Noldorin - Telerin - Doriathrin - Ilkorin

✣ Elvish languages were constantly revised by Tolkien, making it challenging to determine a single 'history' (or creative process) of Elvish tongues. In their case, it is more accurate to speak of a series of histories or continua, which refer to the times at which Tolkien brought significant changes (often 1916, 1937 and post-1948). A tree diagram is thus no longer fitting to visualise them all. The diagrams overlap in a three-dimensional visualisation instead, with each layer representing the changes of each major revision.

✣ Some changes were brought solely for aesthetic purposes. Tolkien found the phonetics of Welsh and Finnish particularly pleasing to the ear and, therefore, based Sindarin and Quenya on their structures. As you probably already know, these are the two most-developed languages in the lore of Middle Earth, but he fleshed out at least four other Elvish languages (Telerin, Ilkorin, Doriathrin and Danian). There were generally more changes in Quenya (abbreviated Q).

✣ What was originally Noldorin (abbreviated N) in the 1916 and 1937 versions is now Sindarin (abbreviated S). After 1948, Noldorin became a dialect of its own, and its place in the language tree shifted. The terms and grammar remained rather consistent from one version to the next. -> example: 1916: N Balrog 'fire demon' (bal- 'anguish' + -róg 'strong') 1937: N Balrog 'fire demon' (bal- 'torment' + rhaug 'demon') 1948: S Balrog 'demon of might' (bal- 'might' + raug 'demon')

✣ Such modifications reflected the major changes brought to the stories (especially to what we now know as The Silmarillion), but they also mirror the natural linguistics evolution of real-life languages. This causes a problem, namely in the emergence of 'linguistic orphans', or words whose etymology was no longer valid because the linguistic or sound laws that birthed them in the first place were removed. -> example: Eärendil (Q 'lover of the sea', ayar- 'sea' + -ndil 'lover') 1916: eären was the genitive form (or possessive form) of eär, so the compound made sense. 1937: eäron replaced eären, but Tolkien remained particularly attached to the previous version because of the Old English éarendel -> this created a disruption in etymology, so he declared that eär/eären meant 'sea'

✣ Major sound changes introduced with The Lord of the Rings

✣ Tolkien introduced lenition in some grammatical cases. In Celtic languages, it is a rather common occurrence. It consists in the softening of a consonant at the start of a word according to certain rules. For example, the sound [p] is softened into a [b]. My knowledge of Irish is non-existent, but it is something which happens in Middle Welsh (c.1100-c.1400) and Modern Welsh. -> example: before 1972, Tolkien suggested that the name Gil-Galad ('star of brilliance', 'brilliant star') was lenited, which means that the second component of the name stems from the word calad (lenition causes the c to soften into a g). -> However, he stated in a letter in 1972 that lenition no longer occurred if 'the second noun functions as an uninflected genitive' (in other words, that the possessive is not marked with an apostrophe, 'of the', or any other marker that applied in Sindarin). This explains the merging of ost 'start' + giliath 'fortress' into Osgiliath 'fortress of the start'. If giliath was lenited, the name would instead be Osiliath or Ostiliath (when lenited, g disappears at the head of the noun). -> There is one noted inconsistency regarding the 'rule' above, and it is the case of Eryn Vorn 'Dark Forest'/'Forest of Darkness'. Eryn is a plural form of oron 'tree' and morn acts as a noun (but it is usually the adjective for 'black, dark' and morne is the noun referring to 'darkness, blackness'). Due to Welsh vowel change rules in certain plural forms, morn becomes myrn, and this very same plural form should accompany eryn (both adjective and noun adopt a plural form). Instead, we find a singular form of morn which is lenited (m becomes v). This is possibly an error accidentally left in by Tolkien.

✣ The nature of Noldorin/Sindarin makes Elvish languages rather realistic in their evolution compared to real-life languages, because irregularities occur. Dr. Griffith argues that languages naturally show irregularity because of gradual changes and borrowed words, but he acknowledges that accidents are sometimes just that. Accidents.

✽ Notes on the lecture by Dr. Aaron Griffith

✣ A general interest in creating new languages emerged in the 19th century. It was believed to be a tool which could help resolve political conflicts by creating a sense of cohesion and avoiding miscommunication. This is evident in the creation of Esperanto.

✣ In most cases of invented languages, the language was invented first, and the world or context they belonged to was formed from there. Tolkien worked exactly the other way around.

✣ Tolkien aimed to create an English myth, because he considered that England lacked its own mythology. King Arthur is generally considered Celtic in essence (possibly Welsh) and therefore could not apply as an English myth. This could explain why he retained the Gregorian calendar throughout The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. It served as a familiar bridge between Middle Earth and England/the real world.

✣ In original maps of Beleriand, there used to be land west of Ered Luin (the Blue Mountains northwest of the Shire). This was changed in later maps, which Tolkien designed and drew himself. Often, Arda was depicted as a globe with several continents. Afterwards, Tolkien decided that Arda was, in fact, flat.

✣ Backstory of the Elves (I have no knowledge of The Silmarillion, so if I did not use the right terms or names, please feel free to correct me!): - Elves first came into existence in Cuiviénen and were invited by the Valar to join them in Valinor, meaning that they had to cross the continent and the ocean - Not all Elves made it to Valinor, however. Some decided to separate from the main group and settled in different areas of Middle Earth, like in Greenwood (later known as Mirkwood). This caused the language they spoke to evolve into different dialects and, sometimes, completely separate languages - Elves returned to Middle Earth after the war against Morgoth (S; Q Melkor), aided by Númenorians - The West was physically separated from the rest of Arda by a 'cut' through the ocean. The gods then shaped Arda into a globe, but once past the portal to the Undying Lands, it was flat again.

✣ Most often, Tolkien did not provide translations of the phrases he peppered into his works, mostly because he believed that nobody would be interested in them. Once he received enthusiastic letters from readers, he decided to attach them to later versions. He did regret publishing the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, however, because the changes felt too 'final' and he felt as though he took away his own liberty to make further revisions to the material (once it's published, you cannot go back).

✣ Tolkien created quite a lot of poetry to match the phonological aesthetics of Sindarin and Quenya.

✣ Outside The Lord of the Rings, the longest source we have in Sindarin is The King's Letter, which was originally supposed to be part of the epilogue in The Return of the King but was not in the final version because he wrote it in the 1970s. In this letter written entirely in Sindarin, Aragorn (then King Elessar) invites Sam, Rosie, and their children to visit him and Arwen in Minas Tirith.

✣ Sindarin grammar is tricky to reconstruct because of the lack of sources on the matter and the complicated grammar revisions that Tolkien brought. However, we do know that it is loosely based on Welsh, which he confirmed in 'English and Welsh' in The Monsters and the Critics (published posthumously in 1983). He aimed to recreate the same 'pleasant' sounds that he found in Welsh for Sindarin. If the reader knows how to pronounce the Welsh alphabet, then they can easily pronounce Sindarin.

✣ Secondary sources on Sindarin: - A Gateway to Sindarin by David Salo. Salo worked as a language consultant on the films, but his book has been criticised by Tolkien scholars because it tends to ignore the changes between 1937 and 1948 and it treats Noldorin as a dialect of Sindarin, which is no longer the case from 1948 onwards. - The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-Earth by Ruth S. Noel

✣ Primary sources are very incomplete, but the main ones we can use to observe the language are the following publications: - The Lord of the Rings - The Lost Road and Other Writings - The War of the Jewels - The Peoples of Middle-Earth

✣ As established in the previous section, Sindarin follows some of the grammatical rules present in Welsh and pre-modern Welsh. We encounter mutations, especially lenition (also called 'soft mutation' because of the sounds becoming softer, e.g. p becoming b), and they play a crucial role in the structure of Sindarin. Below is a comparison of soft mutation/lenition in the context of Welsh and then in Sindarin. -> Welsh: dyn 'man' + teg 'attractive' = dyn teg 'attractive man' merch 'girl' + teg 'attractive' = merch deg 'attractive girl' -> soft mutation after a feminine noun, t is softened into a d -> Sindarin: Perhael 'Samwise' (literally 'half-wise') Berhael 'Samwise' -> lenition when used as a direct object in a clause, p softened into a b Carm Dum 'Red Valley' (capital of Angmar) -> uses tum 'valley', but it is lenited when acting as an adjective or an adverb, t softened into a d

✣ Other forms of mutations exist in Sindarin, but this part of the lecture is quite technical and does require a basic knowledge of Welsh or Middle Welsh to be comprehensible. Feel free to message me if you wish to know more about them.

✣ Mutations arose from sound changes that affected phrases (intonational units). In other words, they are groups of words that have a single principal accent (or stress) to fluidify the manner of speech and convey a sense of emphasis. For instance, not every word is stressed separately in the sentence 'I am going to the supermarket'. The stress is applied by the speaker to highlight their meaning. Is 'I' emphasised to insist that it is 'I' who is going to the supermarket? Is 'supermarket' stressed to insist that it is the supermarket that I am going to, and not another location?

✣ Mutations are inherited from Welsh and its earlier forms. The same is true between Pre-Sindarin (or what Tolkien then referred to as Noldorin) and Sindarin. -> Welsh: atar evolved into adar 'bird' (lenition of t into a d) -> Sindarin: atar evolved into adar 'father' (same pattern)

✣ No cases in Sindarin verbs, unlike in Quenya. This means that there is no Nominative, Genitive, Dative or Accusative.

✣ Like in Welsh, again, some plural forms of nouns involve what we call a vowel change. This means that according to a regular pattern, the vowels contained within a noun are not the same between their singular and their plural forms. In Sindarin, the vowel change and suffixes help to mark plurals. As far as I'm aware, the changes are identical in Welsh, so if you wish to use Sindarin in your own work, have a look at the vowel changes rules and you should be able to form your own plurals. Please note that it occurs with both non-final and final syllables. -> examples: - adan 'man' -> edain 'men' - certh 'rune' -> cirth 'runes' - annon 'gate' -> ennyn 'gates' - amon 'hill' -> emyn 'hills' - mellon 'friend' -> mellyn 'friends' - Dúnadan 'Man of the West' -> Dúnedain (u is not affected)

✣ Suffixes are another way to mark plurals. -> examples: - harad 'south' + rim 'multitude' = Haradrim 'Southrons, Men of the South' - hadhod 'dwarf' + rim 'multitude' = Hadhodrim 'Dwarves (as a race)'

✣ Compounds are common as well. -> example: - morne 'darkness, blackness'/morn 'dark, black' + ia 'pit, gulf' = Moria

✽ Questions I asked Dr. Griffith directly and his answers

✣ Q: In your article and in the PowerPoint presentation, you sometimes mark terms with an asterisk first (e.g. *rokko-khēru-rimbe when you discuss the origin of the term 'Rohirrim'). What does this notation refer to? ✣ A: An asterisk before a form means that it is not actually found anywhere, but we assume it must have existed. In this case, *rokko-khēru-rimbe is the form of Rohirrim as it would have been pronounced in Old Sindarin, but we don't actually have the word anywhere in a written text

✣ Q: For Rohirric/Rohanese, we know that the language that Tolkien based it on was Old English and that terms were directly borrowed from it (e.g. grīma 'mask' or þeoden 'lord, prince, king'), or that names and phrases from Beowulf have been peppered in the lore of Rohan (e.g. Éomer is a character mentioned once, and the first line sung by Miranda Otto in the 'Lament for Théodred' is a line from Beowulf as well). Unfortunately, it seems that the sources on the languages are few, but do we know his reasoning or process in tweaking and applying Old English to create Rohirric/Rohanese? Do we know, perhaps, how the grammar differed from Old English? ✣ A: We don't really know anything about the language of the Rohirrim. Tolkien chose Old English as a sort of cipher. What I mean is: the language of Middle Earth is called Westron, and the Rohirrim spoke a very archaic dialect of it. Tolkien represented this by having them use Old English/archaic forms. He talks about this in one of the appendices to The Lord of the Rings, though I don't remember which one.

✣ Q: In your opinion, is it realistic to compose texts in Quenya or Sindarin, considering that we do not really have a cultural context behind them that is fully explicit? By this, I mean that since idioms and certain concepts are intrinsically tied to their cultural context, is it possible to actually use the Elvish languages to compose new texts altogether? ✣ A: It is possible to compose texts in Quenya and Sindarin. People do it. Obviously, some things are simply impossible to know: how would you say 'computer' or 'shopping mall'? And for other things, we cannot really know since only Tolkien really had the 'true understanding' of Elvish languages and cultures necessary for some text production. That said, people do do it. I don't know much about it, though, I'm afraid.

For those who are interested, I have Dr. Griffith's article, the PowerPoint presentation with sources and vocabulary on it, as well as a handout with Noldorin and Old Noldorin. Dr. Griffith also sent me some extra sources, let me know if you want me to send them to you! If you have questions, I can always try to contact Dr. Griffith again, he is the coordinator of my Middle Welsh course, so I'm bound to bump into him again, and he is genuinely excited to discuss all things Tolkien :) @konartiste @from-the-coffee-shop-in-edoras @lucifers-legions @emmanuellececchi @hippodameia

#Tolkien #Elvish #Elvish languages #Sindarin #Quenya #Noldorin #linguistics #Middle Earth #Lord of the Rings #LOTR #Tolkien's linguistics #masterpost #reference #lotr ref

[leucisticpuffin]

coirë | a stirring

“Thou callest this season beautiful,” he said one morning, watching shadows shift through the canvas as an attendant cleared the doorway of snow. “Forgive me, but I cannot see it.” “But thou hast seen it not,” protested Findekáno, setting aside his mortar and pestle. (The skill of preparing medicines he had picked up in the fearful days of the last winter, needing desperately to be useful, and yet unable to look at the wound wrought by his own hand.) “Not everywhere is so grey! Come, Russandol; I shall show thee why we name it so.”

Read the whole story on AO3

#i finished it!! #really hope i used the archaic language correctly i've never done that before #coirë #maedhros #fingon #silmarillion fanfiction #silmfic #silmarillion fic #tolkien fanfiction #tolkien fic #tolkien fanart #silm art #silmarillion fanart #oneshot #fanfiction illustration

[find-arato]

how to tell tolkien's languages apart: a beginner's guide

sindarin: looks & sounds like elvish

quenya: chaucer ass elvish (þe olde elvish for the nerds) and there's a lot more weird little things above the letters

khuzdul: if you can pronounce words in a deep voice without laughing then it's khuzdul. also consonants and the vowels have little hats on them

adunaic: even more little hats. also dashes' heaven. also you will laugh if you try to say something out loud

#ar-sakalthôr father of ar-gimilzôr #come on #tolkien #silmarillion #sindarin #quenya #khuzdul #languages

[the-elusive-soleil]

Okay, all I wanted to know what which Quenya words originally had þ instead of s, and instead I stumbled on this thing, and now I need to make it other people's problem.

So I knew a large part of why Feanor was so...twitchy about the þ vs. s thing was because of his mom's name, Miriel þerinde. What I did not know was that, while the verb þer- means "to sew", which means that "þerinde" is "seamstress", there was also a verb ser- before the þer- verb changed.

The original ser- means "to rest". So after the pronunciation shift, "Serinde" could mean either "seamstress" or "she who rests".

Considering that Feanor lost his mom because giving birth to him took so much out of her that she essentially had to permanently rest...I can see why this would be such an incredibly sore point with him.

It's not just about "hey, quit mispronouncing my mom's name", it's about "quit calling my mom 'the one who couldn't hack it and had to go away forever' and use the name that describes her as a craftswoman, you complete troglodytes".

#silmarillion #feanor #miriel therinde #quenya #linguistics my beloved #language rant #there really is always another secret with tolkien languages

[ladyminaofcamelot]

I was looking for medieval names for a story and-

I see you Tolkien. I see you. (Also good on the author of this list on familyeducation for putting these names right next to each other. I realize it's just alphabetical, but still, they choose the names on those lists and you wonder if they also knew.)

#Honestly are you really surprised you had to carry a great burden #Frodo son of DROGO #frodo baggins #lotr #deagol #jrr tolkien #love it when the language nerd comes out in new ways

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

Hc that Primitive Quendian (PQ) has a lot of gender neutral terms, and that things like “god” and “king” and “master” in PQ weren’t gendered words the way they are now, so both elleth and ellons would be refered to as “king”, “master”, etc, but as time went on and the language evolved to quenya and sindarin, those words did become gendered, so they were translated as male. The same thing happened with PQ words that mean “damsel” and “slut” and “queen”, which became words associated as female.

And long story short, a lot of stories that were created in PQ were translated to have male heros and female love interests, when in reality the heroes of an epic were pretty diverse across all genders.

In fact, there’s a story called “Swode i Dall” in PQ, which roughly translates to “the swordmaster and the damsel” which is a pretty basic heroic romance about the swordmaster, who always saved the damsel in distress, no matter how many times the damsel got themself into trouble, and it was assumed the swordmaster is an ellon and the damsel is and elleth bc of the respective words becoming more gendered. But in reality the swordmaster in the epic is an elleth, who was specifically based off of Miriel, and the damsel is an Ellon based off of Finwe, and these genders actually make more sense given the context of the story, but it never even crossed many elves’ mind that swordmaster and damsel weren’t gender indications as they were translating the story from PQ into Quenya and Sindarin. The story was actually created bc bby finwe had a massive crush on the strong Miriel and would not go to sleep without the story.

And long story short, there’s a story about Finwe and Miriel in PQ that Feanor has no idea about bc elves got the genders wrong when it was translated.

#everyone was more concerned about describing and naming jobs than they were about gender #primitive quendian #quenya #sindarin #tolkien languages #elvish #pre orome days #feanor #finwe #miriel #give miriel a personality 2023 #finwe x miriel #miriel therinde #headcannon obviously #lord of the rings #lotr #lotr elves #silmarillion

[camille-lachenille]

I was researching something completely unrelated but I passingly saw that hemlock means mortality in Victorian and modern flower language. And my brain immediately thought of the ‘Song of Beren and Lúthien’ in FotR, specifically the first stanza:

The leaves were long, the grass was green,

The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,

And in the glade a light was seen

Of stars in shadow shimmering.

Tinúviel was dancing there

To music of a pipe unseen,

And light of stars was in her hair,

And in her raiment glimmering.

Hemlock is the third element im the description of the glade Lúthien is dancing in, even before we learn her name. We have the long leaves, the green grass and the tall hemlock; two elements traditionally associated with spring and youth, and one heavily associated with death. In two verses we know everything there is to know about Lúthien: she’s youthful and she’s going to die.

The hemlock appears again in the second stanza:

There Beren came from mountains cold,

And lost he wandered under leaves,

And where the Elven-river rolled

He walked alone and sorrowing.

He peered between the hemlock-leaves

And saw in wonder flowers of gold

Upon her mantle and her sleeves,

And her hair like shadow following.

This stanza is from Beren’s point of view, looking at Lúthien. And fact he looks at her through the hemlock leaves tells us he is mortal. Beren looks at Lúthien through the lens of a mortal gaze, and thinks her otherworldly. There is an added layer to it because, in Victorian flower language, hemlock not only means mortality but also more specifically ‘you will be my death’. And, indeed, Beren dies in his quest to obtain Lúthien’s hand.

The last occurrence of hemlock in this song is in the fourth stanza:

He heard there oft the flying sound

Of feet as light as linden-leaves,

Or music welling underground,

In hidden hollows quavering.

Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,

And one by one with sighing sound

Whispering fell the beechen leaves

In the wintry woodland wavering.

I find this stanza more difficult to analyse from a symbolic point of view since it’s mostly a description of autumn and winter coming, but it certainly puts emphasis on the importance of this plant in Beren and Lúthien’s story. As I interpret it, and this is my personal reading, it is an allusion to Beren and Lúthien growing old together and Lúthien choosing to die along Beren.

In The Tale of Tinúviel, the hemlock is also extremely important in the introduction of Tinúviel, and it is more or less a description in much more details of what is hinted at in the Song of Beren and Lúthien from FotR. I can’t put the quote because it’s in French but, very roughly, it says that the hemlock is so tall and dense it looks like Tinúviel is dancing on a white cloud. Then, when Tinúviel sees Beren, she hides under a very tall hemlock and her white dress makes her disappear in the hemlock, looking like moonlight on the flowers. The imagery used in this scene is absolutely beautiful and I can’t make it justice, but what is important is that, upon their first meeting, Tinúviel is metaphorically surrounded by mortality. She is an Elf yet she will die. And Beren, who is an elf too in this version (a Gnome, the proto-Noldor, and I struggle not to picture him as a garden gnome), is doomed to die too from the moment he walks amongst the hemlock in search of Tinúviel.

Last but not least is the Lay of Leithian. Sadly, I don’t have the full Lay of Leithian so I can’t look at the meeting scene but, in an extract given in the French translation of Beren and Lúthien (Christian Bourgois, 2017) it is said that Lúthien wears white roses in her hair (Canto VI, verses 116-117) and there are a few other mentions of unspecified white flowers. White roses mean ‘I am worthy of you’, withered white roses mean ‘transient impressions’, white rosebuds mean ‘girlhood’ and a crown of roses ‘reward of virtue’. I don’t really know what to do with these informations since I don’t have the original text so I can’t say how accurate the translation is, but all of this enhance Lúthien’s ethereal, eternally youthful appearance. It also shows the association of Lúthien with white and light in opposition to Morgoth’s black darkness, I think. But I don’t doubt for a second that the hemlock is an important part of the place where Beren and Lúthien’s meeting.

Anyways, I just love digging this kind of rabbit holes in Tolkien’s poetry, because it gives us so much insight on the characters, and I am almost sure that Tolkien, who grew up in late Victorian England and loved nature, knew of the meaning of hemlock or he wouldn’t have insisted so much on it. I’d love to see if there is a paper out there about flower language/symbolism in Tolkien’s work because I am sure there is so much more of it than what I looked at today.

Sources:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Song_of_Beren_and_L%C3%BAthien

https://www.gardeningchannel.com/flower-meanings-dictionary-from-a-to-z-the-secret-victorian-era-language-of-flowers/

J. R. R. Tolkien, Beren et Lúthien, Christian Bourgois, 2017

And as a bonus, the Song of Beren and Lúthien in music by Clamavi de Profundis: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11_aneHVaz8&list=PLR5qYNG5Nf7WFbZ6wr-rr7gDnALA4C8mQ&index=19&pp=iAQB8AUB

#tolkien #the silmarillion #lay of leithian #beren and luthien #the lay of leithian #the tale of tinúviel #beren #lúthien #lúthien tinúviel #flower language #hemlock #lotr poetry #tolkien song #tolkien meta #half baked ramblings by a sleep deprived tolkien fan #Youtube