#tim drake meta

[fantastic-nonsense]

Wasn’t it Alfred who’d made Damian Robin in Battle for the Cowl? Dick must have agreed after the fact, but Alfred was the one who set it in motion.

Nominally yes, in the sense that Alfred is the person who first put the cape in Damian's hands:

"You can't keep me here." "I'll do no such thing. But understand that you've been injured. Severely so." ......."What the hell are you pulling here, Al?" "It's time to earn your keep. If you're up for it." "So long as I'm not wasting any more time in here, whatever." -Battle for the Cowl #3

However, the reality is "not really." Three things to note about this:

One: no one in the story who actually knows what Damian's gotten up to while Dick was tracking down Tim and fighting Jason actually treats Damian as Robin. For the purposes of the narrative and everyone in it, Tim is still Robin, as Squire points out:

"I'm sure Nightwing could use a hand finding Robin. This way, then." -Battle for the Cowl #3

We don't really see anyone else's reaction to Damian wearing the cape in BftC. Even when Damian saves Tim while wearing the symbol, Tim has no actual reaction besides a single exclamation of Damian's name, and he seems more bewildered that Damian is there at all than he is about Damian wearing the Robin tunic. But the people we do see? Don't treat him as Robin. They treat him as an ally who happens to be wearing the Robin tunic for convenience.

Two: within the bounds of BftC, Damian is explicitly framed as being "Dick's responsibility" with Bruce gone. After Jason shoots Damian, Dick has the same conversation with Alfred that Bruce often did whenever one of his Robins was hurt, framed in a way that made it obvious where things were heading:

"Damian...this child...I could have gotten him killed tonight. I have a responsibility to him now. I let him down, Alfred." "Bruce also said the same of you...and Master Timothy, many times over the years." "And of Jason Todd." "Him as well." -Battle for the Cowl #2

Dick has already implicitly accepted Damian as his Robin at this point. And though Dick and Tim have not explicitly discussed it (as we see via their argument in Red Robin #1), it was also fairly clear that Tim would not be Dick's Robin based on how Dick thought of Tim by that point (as his brother, as his equal, as someone who should not be taking orders from him full-time). Tim had already spent time as the Robin to Dick's Batman back in Prodigal, and both boys had come a long way since then. Once Dick decided to take up the cowl at the end of BftC #2, it was inevitable that Damian would be his Robin rather than Tim (for a whole host of reasons I won't get into here). Alfred just hastened that inevitability.

Three: simply wearing the cape does not make you Robin. You are Robin if and only if two things happen: you have been explicitly accepted by Batman as his partner and Dick Grayson has given his blessing. You are a potential Robin. You are an ally wearing a Robin costume. But you are not Robin until those things happen.

Tim was not Robin in A Lonely Place of Dying even though he stole the costume with Alfred's help to save Bruce and Dick. Tim did not become Robin until after both Bruce and Dick had accepted him as such and he went through a training period (he was known as "Little Bat" until then, btw). The same is true of Damian, who wore the Robin tunic at least three times prior to actually becoming Robin (Bruce briefly took him out while wearing it in Batman and Son and he famously wore it during the events of Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul); he was no more Robin then than he was in BtfC.

The costume isn't what makes you Robin. Batman saying you're Robin and Dick giving the blessing of his parents' legacy to you makes you Robin (which. I will freely admit that's a loaded, complicated topic given the history of how the Robin mantle has been passed down over the years. but it generally holds true). Damian properly becoming Robin after BftC was clearly Dick's choice; Alfred can't "make" anyone Robin if Batman doesn't agree.

The core conceptual problem with Battle for the Cowl (well. there's about 5000 problems with BtfC. but you know what I mean) is that it tries to deal with about fifty different things at once, most of which all ordinarily would have gotten their own dedicated space across multiple books or tie-in comics to deal with. Instead, all of these things are smushed into a single massive threeshot event comic with awful characterization and a near-incomprehensible chain of events. In a perfect world, we would have gotten the same kind of build-up and transition between Tim and Damian that we did in the 90s when Tim became Robin after Jason's death. Unfortunately that's not what we got, so we're left to fill in the gaps ourselves.

But textually, Alfred did not make Damian Robin. Alfred handed an ally to the cause a Robin tunic during a crisis specifically for the purpose of rescuing Robin. After that crisis was over, Batman chose to make that same ally his Robin for reasons entirely unrelated to his wearing the symbol during that specific crisis. Dick chose Damian to be his Robin, and that choice should not be looked over just because removing it conveniently lifts some of the hurt feelings and messiness of that transition off of Dick's shoulders.

Dick handled his own legacy, as he should have. And while he did not handle it with as much communication and grace as he should have or probably would have liked to, it was his mantle and legacy to handle at the end of the day. For once, he had complete agency over choosing a successor to his heroing legacy (and his parents' legacy), not Bruce or Alfred or anyone who self-appointed themselves as a successor, and we should acknowledge and respect that.

He didn't pick Damian because Alfred unilaterally gave him a battlefield promotion; he picked Damian because he thought Tim was grown and independent enough to thrive without taking his orders every day and believed Damian needed his direct oversight and the growth opportunity being Robin would provide more than Tim did. Allow Dick the dignity of his choices instead of acting like he had no input or say in the matter of who his Robin was going to be.

#sidenote for my own peace of mind I just pretend that Dick gave Steph his blessing off-panel #everyone else got his on-panel blessing at some point except her so I just. fill in the gaps for her. #dick grayson #alfred pennyworth #damian wayne #tim drake #dick grayson meta #damian wayne meta #tim drake meta #(sort of) #long post #asks #queue

[umbrellacam]

Reading A Lonely Place of Dying is so interesting in so many ways, but the question I'm still rotating in my mind is about Dick, and specifically why he ends up smiling and soft-advocating for Tim to be Bruce's Robin, after he had his morality crisis over young heroes with Jason's death.

So when he finds out about Jason's death, Dick feels guilty over giving Jason his Robin costume and not being there when he died:

New Teen Titans #55

To the extent that, later in the same issue, he unilaterally fires 15-year-old Danny Chase from the Titans, over Donna and Kory's objections, citing what happened to Jason. He even expresses doubt over his own young age when he became Robin, wondering whether that was a mistake:

New Teen Titans #55

However, when Dick visits Bruce in Gotham to both express his condolences over Jason's death and also confront him over not telling Dick about it, he explicitly rejects Bruce's implication of blame:

New Teen Titans #55

And later, when the Gargoyle is mentally torturing him over his past failures to the Titans, to Bruce, and Jason, Dick breaks through his self-blame issues and firmly asserts that there was nothing he could have done to prevent Jason's death.

Secret Origins (Vol. 2) #3

But understanding his lack of blame logically isn't the same as being totally past it, as it's part of Dick's larger cycle of guilt, as he acknowledges to his therapist:

The New Titans #57

So how does Dick get from here, still wrestling with guilt and feeling ambivalent about the idea of young heroes as a whole, to the end of A Lonely Place of Dying, where he smiles and basically urges Bruce to give Tim a chance to become Robin?

Like, yes, Dick then spends the entirety of Batman: Year Three worried about Bruce's tenuous mental state after Jason's death, reaching out to him in the midst of Batman's reckless, violent spiral, trying to both express care and to call his mentor and hero back to his foundations of crime-fighting through careful detective work, not through brutality - and getting rejected by Bruce over and over. Even while being proud of Dick's methods and the hero he's grown into, Bruce just can't seem to pull himself out of his own morass of self-destruction. Dick eventually has to leave him to it, though he clearly hasn't stopped worrying about Bruce by the start of ALPoD.

Yes, Tim impresses Dick multiple times over the course of ALPoD. First at the circus with his reflexes and his quick thinking (apparently almost as much as he irritates and baffles Dick with his stubborn evasiveness and pushy presumption, lol this total gremlin). Then at Wayne Manor when Tim goes through his deduction of Batman's and Robin's identities, although this one is more an implication through Dick's decision to show Tim the Cave immediately afterward, and Alfred's words to Tim.

Batman #441

And yet Alfred's sentiment here is immediately contradicted when Tim insistently pushes the Robin costume at Dick, and Dick gets pissed off, saying that, "When Jason died, he took Robin with him. And no matter how much anybody may want it - you can't bring back the dead."

The New Titans #61

How does Dick go from this to accepting Tim as the new potential Robin all of two issues later!! This boy's emotions are so mixed up, lol.

I feel like while Dick is clearly angered by Tim's presumptions, kind of baffled and creeped-out by the sort of parasocial fixation Tim has on both Bruce/Batman and Dick/Robin, below the surface he's also genuinely absorbing Tim's driving love and care for them both. Like, he's way too ticked off to show it or even think of it consciously at the moment - and it's hard to process!! despite that day at Haly's Circus tying them together a decade ago, this kid is a rando, it's out of nowhere, it's wild to be confronted with!! - but on some level he has to be touched by Tim's care and passion for their legacy. He wouldn't make his heel-turn later and smile at Tim so approvingly otherwise.

Like, Dick wants Bruce to have a partner that cares for him that much, that forces him to care for himself in a way that he clearly hasn't been since Jason's death. And Dick is both afraid and aware that he can't fill that role anymore - that he can try to stand beside Batman as Nightwing and support him that way, but he can't stand behind Bruce in his protective shadow again, can't cramp himself back into Robin.

So even as Dick is making line-faces at this bizarre kid pushing himself at them, talking about Jason and Dick and Bruce and what Batman needs like he knows better than Dick, UGH… Dick is also considering… is maybe moved a bit by that star-bright conviction and overflowing love in the face of all the doubts that seem to plague both Bruce and Dick lately… is maybe hoping, seeing a possible light in the dark. Not on a conscious level, perhaps, but it's maybe churning below the surface with everything else Dick is thinking about.

Anyway, Dick still tracks Batman down and tries being a supportive partner as Nightwing, even going "I'm here. Always," when Batman finally brings himself to admit that he needs help. Only to IMMEDIATELY run face-first into Bruce's control issues and post-Jason-disregarding-orders trauma - "You're not with the Titans now. If you want to be with me, you follow my orders. Now do as I say." (The New Titans #61) Oof, instant I'm-NIGHTWING-not-ROBIN friction, but Dick swallows it for now.

Then Two-Face blows up a building on top of both of them, and Tim (and Alfred!) have to rescue them both. By the time that they've been dug out, Alfred and Dick are both praising Tim's potential to a very baffled and alarmed, verging on angry, Batman lol. Dick and Alfred then grin at each other while young Tim struggles against his intimidation and argues the tremendously (and understandably!) reluctant Batman to a standstill.

Batman #442

As they drive away afterward (Bruce, Dick and Tim in the Batmobile to track down Two-Face - using the tracker Tim planted on him, good job Timmy!! - and Alfred toward home in a separate car), we get the following thought-bubbles:

Bruce: Even if he's right, I don't want another partner. Dick: Bruce, for once, think with your heart, not with cold logic. Tim: He doesn't want me, but he hasn't said no. So just do your best… Alfred: …One way or another, the rest will take care of itself.

Batman #442

"Think with your heart, not with cold logic" - so does Dick's line here mean that this is what he himself is doing at this point? Setting aside his logic, his fears and reservations about young heroes, about Jason's death, about putting another young boy in the Robin costume - because Tim joining them, maybe becoming Bruce's new partner, feels right? Because everything that Tim has shown of himself so far means the kid deserves a chance, at least? Because Bruce's caution after Jason's death would mean that he'll make sure to 'do it right this time'? Because Tim's passion and conviction could be what Batman needs, and - maybe as much if not more than that - could be something that deserves to be nurtured into something great, despite Dick's own (and Bruce's) fears?

Because Dick has to be wrestling with and at least quelling (if not fully letting go of) his fears about the risks to young heroes in these issues, it doesn't make sense for him to be okay with Tim as Robin otherwise. And it can't all be about what use Tim could be to Bruce - the leash he could put on Batman's out of control behavior. That's far too selfish and manipulative as a sole motive for Dick Grayson; especially after Jason, he wouldn't encourage a kid to jump into the meat-grinder of vigilantism solely to save Bruce or preserve the legacy of Batman & Robin.

I feel like Dick has to also be seeing something in Tim here, his potential, his determination, the good that he can and wants desperately to do, that Dick has to respect, has to think deserves a shot. When Alfred goes, "The boy should be a politician!" and Dick replies, "He'd do more good with Bruce," (Batman #442; panels above), it does feel like he's thinking of the difference Tim himself could make in the world. Dick has to be remembering why he himself could not be put off from the vigilante life when he was even younger than Tim, why Jason also went out there and did his best every night. To help people, in a way that mattered.

Anyway, Tim also puts in a good showing when they confront Two-Face, despite giving Bruce a near heart-attack over this strange unfamiliar boy wearing his son's uniform when Tim briefly appears to have been crushed - only for him to have saved himself and warned Batman and Nightwing of danger through his quick thinking.

Afterward, Alfred and Dick both advocate for Tim, so Dick is clearly pulling for Tim to be given a chance. Dick's smile here, my heart.

Batman #442

I still wish they'd been a little more explicit with the turn of Dick's mindset here, but at the same time I guess it's pretty effective as show-not-tell!

All in all, I feel like ALPoD was very effective storytelling, well done Marv, hugely enjoyable read, and I can't wait to read more.

#I had to reconstruct this entire post from scratch after Tumblr ate the whole fucking thing GRAHHHH 👿👿👿 #Dick Grayson #Tim Drake #Bruce Wayne #Alfred Pennyworth #Dick and Tim #Bruce and Dick #Bruce and Tim #Dick and Jason #Bruce and Jason #Dick Grayson meta #Tim Drake meta #this wasn't really supposed to be meta so much as me trying to think through Dick's emotional through-line but eh! #those are the tags I have lol #dcu #DC Comics panels #Cam reads comics #Batman #Batman and Robin #Nightwing #A Lonely Place of Dying #Cam posts #Cam writes

[kinkforwings]

Having thoughts about Red Robin and Dick & Tim. How Dick says that he thinks of Tim as a partner, an equal and that's why he doesn't want him to be Robin to his Batman because Dick felt like he was just a sidekick when he was Robin, which arguably is and isn't true, and is projecting on Tim. How Tim doesn't understand that and hence is angry about Robin being taken from him because to him Batman and him were partners, and is feeling betrayed and insecure.

And then Tim runs away from Gotham because he is mentally suffering from continuous losses since he turned 16 and is desperate to lose himself in searching for proof that Bruce is alive just so that he could bury the grieving part of him because he is totally fine really. And Dick is left in Gotham with the burden of a legacy he didn't want, abandoned by one of people he unconditionally trusts, not being able to properly grieve while taking of a child who grew up as an assassin and also handling the weight of a city on his shoulders, and he is also totally fine.

#rambling in the middle of the night #my meta #tim drake #tim drake meta #dick grayson #dick grayson meta #dick & tim #batman #robin #red robin #nightwing #dc #batfam #dick & bruce #tim & bruce #I'm totally normally about these two brothers your honor

[heroesriseandfall]

Shoutout to Marv Wolfman in 2011 saying he thought giving Tim Drake his own family and desire to be Robin instead of Batman would mean he’d avoid getting riddled with angst.

Batman: A Death in the Family Deluxe Edition

Relevant post is here. LOL. (Hey, at least Tim still maintains his passion for “Batman needs a Robin” and “Dick Grayson is the best”! However, the “free from angst” thing may have run into some problems.)

#always so curious what wolfman would’ve done with Tim’s parents if not for Alan Grant’s Rite of Passage storyline interrupting everything #like he set it all up for them to be involved in Tim’s plot as an outside force maybe like Jack is later but dc just shelved them for a bit #tim drake #batfam #dc comics #robin iii #cannot understate how curious I am though. what was Wolfman gonna do with Bruce’s ‘hey Alfred pls investigate Tim’s parents. they’re fishy’ #and the clear nearing-divorce situation #heroesriseandfall #tim drake meta #marv wolfman #batman: a lonely place of dying

[sporkberries]

Tim Drake and Red robin

 Aka the whole identity problem.

So there’s a lot of discussion over Tim and what identity he is going to take up- this is by no means recent, it's been going on for over a decade. So for a lot of people who are newer to comics I want to explain why Red Robin isn’t really an option as a permanent identity for Tim, and what Red Robin means to Tim personally

So first off, for expositions sake, Tim didn’t create Red Robin. The costume nor the identity.  It originated in the Kingdom Come Storyline and belonged to Dick Grayson

(Dick Grayson, Earth-22) Honestly i don’t want to get into the can of worms of Kingdom Come and it’s not that important to my point so just know this is where Red Robin comes from.

Okay now the first appearance of Red Robin in Main Continuity was in Countdown to Final Crisis where the mantle was taken by * drum roll*

Countdown #14 Jason Todd!! This is also not very important because Jason mainly does multiverse shenanigans that isnt important to my overall point. I just find it very funny that Jason was Red Robin before Tim. Also he kills an alternate universe version of the joker- Good for him!

Now into the stuff that actually affects Tim and why he chooses to don the Red Robin Mantle in the first place-towards the end of Tim’s robin run. Where we see Red Robin stalking Tim around Gotham.

Red Robin in Robin(1993) #177 This Red Robin ends up being Ulysses Armstrong( a gang leader and recurring baddie from Tim’s Robin run) and to say the least he does some not very nice things!! Said things including luring Tim into a warehouse and blowing him up(what is up with robins and warehouses seriously?) anyways looking good tim!

Robin(1993) #181

After this injury Tim wears the Red Robin cowl to hide/protect his identity while he takes care of Ulysses. And in the ensuing fight a bunch of children get blow up- it’s great and definitely good for our protagonists declining mental health, Now for a bit more exposition after this incident Tim helps break Jason out of prison who then dons a cringe batman suit and kills a shit ton of people- the infamous Battle For The Cowl storylines ensues. With Dick Grayson taking the mantle of Batman and Damian Wayne being gifted the Robin mantle. Though Dick wasn’t wrong to do this(which is a whole other thing to argue about) it upset Tim and he needed a new costume to wear on his quest to bring Bruce back. He chooses Red Robin, as it’s an identity he considers dirty and disconnected from both his previous titles and the rest of his family.

Red Robin(2009) #1

Tim is at a VERY dark place in his life during the Red Robin run. A lot of fanon characterizes Tim as pretty depressed and sad and almost all of that stems from this period of time exclusively- and it makes sense. Tim underwent a series of very serious and brutal losses under a pretty short period of time( Steph[briefly],his dad, Conner, Bart, and Bruce all dying). And though pretty much everyone was right to doubt him about the whole Bruce being alive thing that rejection definitely didn’t help things. For Tim Red Robin offers a sort of outlet he doesn’t have to be Tim he doesn’t have to necessarily be a good person he just needs to do what needs to be done( I’d argue for the beginning of Red Robin that’s his main philosophy)

Red Robin(2009) #2

Red Robin(2009) #4

In Adventure Comics(2009) #3 Tim reunites with Conner while he’s in Paris, where in Conner says this

Conner knows Tim better than anyone, keep that word Punishment in mind. As it comes back up again in** Red Robin(2009) #9**

And okay this being brought up again is a joke but i still think its true. Tim IS punishing himself. He hates he situation he’s in he hates that he can’t save anyone he hates that he keeps making the wrong decisions(having the children be near the bombs, helping Jason get out of prison, and basically everything that’s happened in Red Robin as well) Tim IS a good person and he has a very strong moral compass- so betraying any aspect of his conscience- pretending to be someone he’s not HURTS him.

At the end of Red Robin(2009) Tim tries to kill Captain Boomerang, the man who killed his father( see: identity crisis) , or he very nearly tries to anyways. He wants to kill him, HE IS ABOUT TO KILL HIM. but he doesn’t.

Red Robin(2009) #26

Tim is at a crossroads. He’s hurting but he still WANTS to be good. He ends up doing the right thing but is that what Tim wants? Tim is changing he’s not Robin anymore he’s becoming his own person his own individual.

So you may ask, what happens after this? Does Tim figure out who he wants to be? Does he make a decision? HAHA silly you!! NO!! Dc resets the whole universe, retcons Tim’s backstory erases all his character development then un-retcons his backstory etc etc leaving Tim Drake in character limbo for essentially a DECADE.

So all this backstory withstanding why do I think Red Robin is a bad choice for Tim as an identity(discounting the fact he’s not even RR anymore but just robin which is stupid and also dumb) ? Well Red Robin was never MEANT to be permanent- Red Robin was a temporary means to end, a tool to get to his destination. I see Red Robin as a chrysalis of sorts. Tim as Robin was the caterpillar, red robin was the chrysalis and his next identity would be who he becomes, or rather who he DECIDES to be. Having Red Robin as Tim’s main identity is a disservice to his character but also doesn’t allow him to complete his arc. Tim doesn’t have an identity he chose and wanted for himself; he hasn't even moved on from ROBIN. In order to develop as a character Tim NEEDS to discover an identity for himself, abandoning the robin mantle entirely.

I think there is hope, a lot of Tim’s content since and including Urban Legends have been largely about him discovering himself and searching for his identity. Let’s just hope DC actually follows through.

#this was inspired by a poll i saw where people were voting for what tims identity should be and somehow Red Robin had the second most amount #of votes #boggles my mind #Tim Drake #Tim Drake Meta #Red Robin #Robin #Batman #dc #spork says stuff #long post

[lettucecomplexx]

admittedly i'm not a really a tim drake stan, but like, i can't be the only one who hates this idea that tim killed those league assassins when he blew up the bases.

Like yeah, "they exploded there's no logical way the survived that" but non-killing comic book characters do stuff that seems like it would kill people all the time. Unless the narrative expressly says or insinuates that tim killed those people, i consider them alive.

Also i feel like it's detrimental to his character. Like saying that he killed people is a pushback to his woobified fanon image (where he can't take care of himself/needs to be coddled by his family and was horribly neglected by his parents) but saying that he killed a bunch of people doesn't fix that. It just twists his character even more into something that it's not.

Tim is someone who became a vigilante not out of any personal stakes, he just wanted to help. I think that's such an impressive and admirable part of his character. He is a good person. He admittedly is susceptible to becoming a super villain, but he doesn't want to be that. I don't see why someone who doesn't want to become a super villain to the point of threatening to kill himself would go and bomb hundreds of people.

idk i'm just really sick of seeing jokes about tim killing people, kind of ruins what i like about him.

#tim drake #tim drake meta #or i guess tim drake fanon meta #sometimes i just mentally give him a mental supervillain list #like the one call has in the magisterium series #where tim tries to avoid anything that seems like something a supervillain would do #honestly i think it's something that fits him #though who knows i already said i'm not exactly a tim drake stan #i just like him :) not enough to read his comic tho i'm lazy

[noodlethoughts]

I’m just saying, Matilda was definitely one of Tim’s favorite childhood movies. A worryingly independent and smart kid using the tools available to her, defeating the villain and finding her true family in the process. Sound a little familiar?

#batfam headcanons #tim drake headcanon #batfam meta #tim drake meta #matilda

[someoneimsure]

Desperately reminding everyone that Jason never intended to kill Tim Drake.

If Jason wanted him dead, he would be dead.

Teen Titans 2003 #29

He was testing Tim’s mettle and walked away with a good impression of the kid. That is all.

And no, Batman does not think Jason poses a threat to Tim Drake.

For us to know for certain that Batman does think Jason poses a threat to Tim Drake, Batman would have to tell us and the only opportunity he has for that is in UTRH. He doesn’t say anything like that then, and any time it comes up afterwards, especially in comics post-2016 after the 52 reboot, is to be ignored for post-Crisis continuity.

He also does not think Jason killed Dick Grayson or an entire city.

Jason clearly thinks it is ironic that on the day he and Batman were meant to finally hash out their differences, Dick probably died.

Batman is also very clearly not blaming Jason for the destruction of the City. He’s just preparing for an attack. When he does finally talk to Jason, it is never about Tim Drake. It’s not even clear if Batman even knows that Tim Drake was attacked.

Despite Dick’s death, Batman still wants to save Jason. But he doesn’t. Instead he does this:

Batman does not even react with horror at hitting his only surviving son. The only son who came back from the dead, mind you.

He just stands there as his son dies (again) and the Joker laughs at him, which is designed to push the theme that Batman fails.

But he does react to horror at the thought of The Joker dying. He does try to stop that.

In conclusion, Batman did not know about or even think about Tim Drake while dealing with Jason in UTRH. Batman did not blame Jason for Dick’s death or the destruction of Bludhaven. If you do think he blames Jason for Dick or thinks Jason is a threat to Tim, you’re reading too much into it.

...and probably confusing this version of Jason with the absolute dramatic fool in BFTC. No one likes that book. Just burn it.

UTRH Batman is the “don’t let emotions interfere with your mission unless it’s your trauma being recreated in front of your face” kind taken to the extreme to fit the real message of the book:

The Batman is a failure because of his antiquated moral code.

“I don’t know what clouds your judgement worse. Your guilt or your antiquated sense of morality.” - Jason Todd, Under the Red Hood

You broke DC with this one Judd, and it has never recovered.

#i am screaming into the void today #my meta #jason todd meta #tim drake meta #bruce wayne meta #bruce wayne #jason todd #tim drake #batman #red hood #red robin #tim wayne #tim drake robin #my post

[batmanfamilybatfamily]

Tim Drake's whole vibe is *I don't need to know more than you. You just have to THINK I do*

And I love that for him.

#like of course he's smart #but he's also a tricky bastard #he's NOT going to play fair #tim drake meta #tim drake #batfamily

[scarlethood]

fanon tim thing I don't want to see anymore is Coffee Fiend Tim that can't cook or take care of himself until an assigned girl or gay bf does it for him (thats a different pet peeve but whatever) Tim grew up upper middle class then very upper class, he lives in the mansion next to the Wayne mansion for fucks sake, he thinks money is there to burn

give me a Tim that has scientifically calculated The Optimal Way to get all of his vitamins and nutrients in the ready made meals he has delivered from trader joes every week. he eats quinoa and kale salads every lunch with a fruit cup. he drinks two pots of coffee every day but in between each cup he has a smoothie to make sure he doesn't dehydrate. on off days he takes extra vitamins and drinks the teas janet swears by. he gets dinner delivered or from Alfred and heats it up on a hot plate he rigged up himself outta a spare bunsen burner. he turned his kitchen into a science lab! let him be a fucked up scientist! reaching optimal health/ peak performance is a science fair project to him!!

#how many times can i say science before it stops being a word? #let dami and tim bond over their optimized meal portioning and horror over dick eating his cereal w oj instead of milk #tims a fucked up mad scientist who has to label his fridges one for food one for blood and microbes #tim drake #tim drake meta #thoughts on rye

[fantastic-nonsense]

yeah I'm just going to swing a bat at the hornet's nest and wade into the discourse: Tim and Damian were canonically mutually jealous of each other during the pre-reboot era for (ironically) pretty similar reasons, and getting mad about WFA acknowledging it is an indication that you care more about defending your fave than you do about actually understanding what happened and how they've both grown beyond it since then. Is the Tim-Damian conflict in WFA the same as it is in canon? No. Does it have a solid, factual basis in Tim and Damian's canon issues? Yes.

Tim was jealous of Damian principally for two reasons. One, as a brand new adoptee, he felt incredibly insecure about his place in the Wayne family; Damian's demands to be treated with respect because he's Batman's biological son and his constant insults of Tim because Tim isn't hit Tim hard because of it. Tim feels like he's had to work incredibly hard to earn Bruce's love and respect while Damian gets it by default (which....lots to unpack there, but moving on), and the hurt that this causes combined with Damian's arrogant and cruel dismissal of Tim as a member of the family simply because he's not biologically related influences Tim's continued negative opinion of Damian. The dinosaur incident also doesn't help matters. Thus, he's resentful that Damian was (from his perspective) immediately accepted into the family despite his behavior towards them and hurt because he feels like his own place in the family is being denied by the newcomer.

Two, after losing so much and so many people and finally achieving a tiny bit of equilibrium in his life when Bruce adopts him, Damian shows up and, in his mind, more or less replaces him as the center of everyone's attention. This isn't really Damian's fault (his upbringing, trauma, and learned behaviors make him an incredibly difficult child who needs a lot of time, care, and attention from the adults around him), but Tim is right in that the second Damian shows up, he gets somewhat de-prioritized and trusted to handle himself in a time period where he's emotionally vulnerable and desperately craving positive attention and validation from his "new" family.

These feelings get touched on in multiple issues, particularly Batman & Son and Red Robin #1:

"What about us?" /// "If he is my son-even if he's not-he deserves some love and respect." "So let him earn it, like everyone else." -Batman #657 (Batman and Son)

"How can you let him wear that costume, Dick? What earth are we on that you choose him over me?" /// "Sorry, Drake. You're still part of the team--maybe the Batgirl costume is available." [Tim punches Damian in the face] "My name is Tim Wayne!" -Red Robin #1

Are Bruce and Dick actually choosing Damian over Tim? No, they're not. Dick is actually explicitly trying to express that he loves, respects, and trusts Tim (both as a person and as a competent vigilante) by calling Tim his "equal" and giving Damian the Robin mantle. But Tim is insecure and hurting and grieving throughout this entire period in his life, and he isn't thinking the most rationally about the situation. This is a moment that very reasonably feels like a betrayal to Tim, who sees it as Dick taking away the one stable thing he has left in the aftermath of Bruce dying, and then Damian walks into the room and implicitly denies him a place in the family. He feels replacable and unneeded, and his jealousy and resentment of Damian throughout this period are ultimately less about Damian personally (any personal dislike of Damian he has is largely due to other issues) and more about his own emotional instability and the insecurity he feels as an adoptee.

Meanwhile, Damian was jealous of Tim for the exact same reasons that he's jealous of Cass in Gates of Gotham: Bruce and Dick's easy trust in and respect of Tim, both as a person and as a vigilante, and the fact that Bruce chose Tim to be part of his family and never chose Damian (even though Bruce accepted him anyway). He views Tim as a threat and rival for his father's affections, and to that end his constant insults towards Tim tend to lean in two directions: undermining his place in the family and undermining his competence as a vigilante. Both types of insults are the direct outgrowth of Damian's own insecurities about his place in the family.

Damian has a notable and recurring desire to feel useful, competent, and accepted within the Batfam. It's explicitly what Damian wants most in this era: to be accepted and for his skills to be recognized. Dick even comments on it during the Hit List arc: "he practically bleeds a need to be accepted." In many ways, Damian thinks that if he’s not succeeding at proving his competency and usefulness, he’s failing at proving he’s worthy to stay in Gotham, and his consistent prickliness towards other people is often a front to cover up his insecurities about these things. This crops up pre-reboot literally as early as Batman and Son:

"But she's not there now, is she? Because she wants something from Great Britain in exchange for the life of the Prime Minister's wife and I think I know what it is." "It's Gibraltar! She wants the garrison at Gibraltar! See? I can be useful!" -Batman & Son (2006)

And as late as Gates of Gotham, when he gets angry and snappy at Cass because she pulled him away from disabling the bomb at Elliot Tower (in his mind, undermining his competence as a vigilante) and promptly starts insulting her behind her back:

"Cassandra's not useless." "No. She's spineless, naive, and fragile. And I don't trust her." "You don't trust anyone..." "And your eagerness to trust makes you weak." "Well, deny it all you want...but I think we both know the only real reason you don't like her...is that she's just one more person your father picked over you." -Gates of Gotham #3

It's also explicitly noted during the infamous Red Robin Hit List arc, where Damian talks about how "it isn't fair" that Tim still doesn't trust him despite all of the work he's put in to change his thoughts, behavior, and tactics from how he was taught in the League. He lashes out at Tim during "The Hit List" because he'd finally gained some measure of trust and respect from Dick and some personal equilibrium in his life...and then Tim comes swooping back into Gotham after having gained the respect of Damian's grandfather and proceeds to unearth the surprise revelation that Bruce (the father who rejected Damian) respected Tim enough to hand over (nominal) control of Wayne Enterprises to him, poach on his quality time with Dick, and continue to distrust Damian despite his very real struggles to change.

You feel a lot for Damian during the Reborn era because you can chart a direct path between the hurt he feels at being seemingly rejected by the one person he'd desperately wanted approval from for years–Bruce–and the ways in which he lashes out at Dick, Tim, Alfred, etc when suddenly not too long after that incident Bruce is dead and he's stuck with this group of people who clearly and obviously don't like or trust him. He's constantly trying to prove himself as worthy of being there and, very reasonably, gets frustrated and hurt and angry when his efforts are met with continued distrust and hostility.

Tim's continued lack of trust (which Tim has for good but genuinely misguided reasons!) feeds into Damian's resentment and jealousy of him; this is especially true given that Tim is consistently portrayed as competent, trusted, and deeply loved by basically every other member of the Batfam–particularly by Dick and later Bruce, the two people whose opinions Damian values most–during this time period. So yeah: Damian is jealous of Tim too, and his behavior towards Tim is largely indicative of that plus his frustration at Tim's continued distrust of him. His methods of dealing with that hurt (cutting Tim's line and trying to fight him afterwards) are absolutely unacceptable and are treated as such, but they come from a totally understandable place.

Luckily "The Hit List" is basically THE lowest point for Tim and Damian’s relationship. It starts improving immediately after this; multiple writers showcase a definite shift in Tim and Damian’s dynamic after that point, and by the time we get to Gates of Gotham (the last time they interact pre-reboot), we were getting scenes like this:

Gates of Gotham #3

They were absolutely still prickly and kinda rude towards each other (and I wouldn’t necessarily say they liked each other), but they had very clearly grown, were on much better terms, and were able to trust each other while working and fighting together. They've both individually matured and grown enough to the point where they're able to start moving on from that initial period of distrust and jealousy and move forward into a new era (and then we get the reboot, but that's a different discussion for another day).

tl;dr: Yes, Tim was jealous of Damian. Yes, Damian was jealous of Tim. Those are both objective facts that canon addressed and dealt with in a variety of different ways throughout the pre-reboot era. Tim and Damian are jealous and resentful of each other largely because they're two traumatized kids who feel deeply insecure about their place in the family and the utility of their skills in a time of immense personal upheaval. Neither of them are totally right; neither are totally wrong. Both of them act terribly towards each other because of it, and I refuse to let people blame the entirety of this conflict on one of them or pretend like their mutual jealousy of each other didn't exist and didn't contribute to their behavior.

#this is not my full tim-damian post because their relationship is (again) COMPLICATED AF #but I figured I'd address at least this portion of it #tim drake #damian wayne #tim drake meta #damian wayne meta #dc comics #wayne family adventures #wfa spoilers #canon vs fanon

[alternis]

there's Something there about tim drake's weird stalkery tendencies and that so much of his relationship with his parents was spent keeping track of them from a distance, often without knowing where they were or when they'd be back home next

#it's an interesting character trait to have with a lot of potential in there to also talk about his other relationship flaws #obvs not Every Tim holds people at a distance whilst knowing more about them than they do him #but that's happened enough times to be a pattern #and his parentification with Bruce definitely contributed to this sense of needing to know other people better than they know him #tim drake meta #gothamites #my posts

[trust-and-jump]

Timmy, Timmy, stop

Isn't it a nice video? 6 mins.

DC Deep Drive: Tim Drake - Industry Plant by Xel Writer. Almost no comments, sadly. Go watch it, it's about how the writers kinda push Timmy in front of everyone else. A little. Ehe. It was interesting. (sorry for adding the video, tumblr won't let me add just a link)

#tim drake #Tim Drake meta #batman #batman meta #video essay #timothy drake #batman comics #Xel Writer #DC Deep Drive: Tim Drake - Industry Plant #Meta #comic analysis #Youtube

[heroesriseandfall]

In trying to do “justice” to Tim for what happened around Red Robin, I think a lot of Tim fans actually make Tim a worse character without realizing it.

I don’t mean in the sense that he’s less interesting how they write him (although I think he is), I mean that people literally write him as a much more mean-spirited, bitter, and less loving person than he is in canon. Canon Tim Drake has a huge capacity for forgiveness and love and is not generally a bitter person.

Tim can hold grudges, yes, and can at times be quite mean, but overall he is a character who tends to look to the core of people and see what is good in them and guard that goodness with his life. It’s the basis of his bond with Helena Bertinelli, with Jason Todd, and many others.

IMO, this is in part what made the struggle with Damian challenging, because surely there is good in him, he is my little brother is at war with the extremely insecure and depressed side of Tim where he had only recently felt comfortable accepting Bruce as his adoptive father. And suddenly his new dad got a new kid who, coming from his own trauma, solidly resisted Tim’s every attempt to see what was good in him.

Most particularly, though, Tim especially sees that core goodness in Dick Grayson, who was his hero since he was very young and had been a central guiding point and source of love and admiration for years. Indeed, the vast majority of Tim’s life had been spent in admiration of the man who would become his older brother. The whole idea that the events of Red Robin would destroy that trust and admiration and love and everything else built up between Tim and Dick goes completely against the core of Tim's character. And it is, in my opinion, a very mean-spirited view of Tim Drake.

#even if tims mental health was good enough to actually cut out the people who hurt him (it wasnt) dick would not qualify nearly enough. #tim is not that mean. he is not that bitter. he loves and knows his brother more than that. #tim drake #dick grayson #batfam #and peopl are also just very wrong about the context and events of Red Robin in general but that’s another discussion <3 #fandom critical #red robin (2009) #bonds: i knew it was you #canon vs fanon #dc meta #tim drake meta #damian wayne #batbros #heroesriseandfall

[bruciemilf]

“Bruce is emotionally incompetent and can’t step outside his own morality” yeah it’s a character flaw.

“Dick is extremely stubborn and thinks he’s right all the time” yeah it’s a character flaw.

“Jason has hypocritical tendencies” yeah it’s a character flaw.

“ Tim is entitled and doesn’t think about people when seeking results, and often acts uncaring” yeah it’s a character flaw.

“Damian is rude and bratty” yeah, it’s a character flaw.

Also, some people may not even regard everything listed above as flaws.

Having negative traits allows incredible flexibility within your characters, what makes them intriguing, what makes them easy to relate to. If you want to write people, then write people. But they can’t be good and clean all the time.

#bruce wayne #dc comics #dc #batman #jason todd #dick grayson #tim drake #I’m really glad we’re growing out of the ‘my favorite is flawless because they’re a good person who has done both wrong ever’ phase #you can absolutely enjoy media that has imperfections and blemishes. these characters should be flawed. they should get to be shitty people #sometimes. they should get a chance to grow and extend and evolve as individuals. because I think that’s what we need to see more #it’s not about being a shitty person. it’s about STAYING a shitty person #text #meta #batfamily

[ditzybat]

i need a homo-magi tim drake au.

like, i find it very hard to believe that in that mausoleum of a mansion filled to the brim with ancient artifacts jack and janet drake collected throughout their travels, that not a single one of them was cursed —

— and that a nine year old tim didn’t use an ancient aztec macuahuitl as a baseball bat and now knows several dead languages with weird cursed powers from some ancient meso-american demon that camps out in his body.

but like tim has no clue that whatever is going on with him is not normal because he was never told it wasn’t not normal,

and then imagine other people’s reactions to this, especially other magic users like zatanna and constantine —

zatanna: i don’t understand why i can’t seem to get these runes right..

13 year old tim drake: because you’re working on them backwards, it’s supposed to be [fast paced nahuatl]

zatanna: how…?

tim (blissfully unaware of his abilities, smiling sweetly): the voices :D

and then i just imagine his shadow is some looming creature or something idk, kinda how in yj comics his shadow is batman’s silhouette

#dc comics #dc universe #batman #robin #dc robin #tim drake #red robin #zatanna #justice league #janet drake #jack drake #bruce wayne #meta tim drake #homo magi tim drake