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galaxythreads · 4 months

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Loki had no right to envy thor and praise the ground frigga walked on when odin was a shitty dad to all three of his kids

Alright! Time to talk about something that is not discussed enough: jealousy between siblings that grew up in parental abuse/neglectful situations.

As someone who grew up in an abusive/neglectful environment and has siblings, + knows many people who have the same set of parameters, jealousy between siblings is sort of natural byproduct because guess what!

Parents never, never, never abuse/neglect every kid in their family in exactly the same way.

My parents were awful to my siblings in ways they weren't to me, but I'm jealous of the good things they did to for them because they didn't do that with me (i.g. when I was looking for a job last year, i got yelled at every time I failed; when my sister was looking for a job, my parents were very present for her emotionally and assured her she was doing the best she could when she didn't get the job. Their patience was absurd to me) Stuff like that + bigger things. If we were neglected/abused in exactly the same way, my sister would have gotten yelled at, too, or I would have gotten support, but it didn't happen like that because parents don't DO that, even in healthy environments, parents are never the same parents to their kids.

Likewise in ways they were awful to my siblings, they were LESS awful to me, so my siblings are jealous of that. when you're raised in an environment where you have to fight for love and scraps of affection when your parents are in a parenting mood, you are always jealous when someone manages to get the scrap. Like yes, your siblings (often) become your closest friends and confidants in that situation because there's no one else who understands it like they do, but because the abuse/neglect is so different for everyone, it causes resentment.

So here's the thing: Thor, Hela, and Loki were not abused in the same way. Loki can have an amazing, healthy relationship with Frigga (he does not, but we can pretend for a moment) and Thor is fighting for scraps of love from her. (Parents and their parenting moods are weird) and Thor can resent Loki for that because he needs a mom too. Thor can get all the attention from Odin and have a healthier (it is not healthy) relationship with Odin, and Loki can resent him for that, even though he has a "good" relationship with Frigga, because he still needs a dad. Hela can have been banished and raised as Odin's sword and have NO good or even good-ish relationships with Frigga and Odin and she resents Thor and Loki for that because she needed parents.

But is all their trauma valid even though the WAY they were traumatized is different? Yes. Can we look at them and objectively choose the "worst" victim between the three of them? No. We can't. Because different things traumatize people differently. And why should we? it's not a competition. Even though parental abuse/neglect has a tendency to pit siblings against each other despite (usually) said siblings best efforts otherwise, it is NOT A COMPETITION.

Loki has every right to be angry with Odin over what he did to him even though Odin was terrible to all his children because IT! IS! NOT! A! COMPETETION! ABOUT WHO WAS ABUSED MORE! The most suffering victim doesn't "earn" the right to be traumatized. everyone was traumatized. Everyone gets therapy. They're just going to talk about different things in therapy and THEY ARE ALL STILL TRAUMATIZED.

I guarantee to you that if they were real people, Thor would absolutely be jealous of Loki and Hela. Loki would be jealous of Hela and Thor. Hela would be jealous of Thor and Loki, EVEN THOUGH all of them are being abused, it's just the fact they're not being abused in the same way.

And this is WHY I am always in awe of their relationship in canon because it is one of the best written sibling relationships under abuse I have ever seen because it is REAL. (The Umbrella Academy s1 did this spectacularly, also, btw) Sibling relationships under abuse are so so so messy because everyone is in survival mode and it causes SO MANY issues.

and guess what! Everyone IS jealous of each other

^ Thor's resentment that he wasn't taught anything by Frigga (listen to the way he says this, he is very jealous and bitter, i WISH they had poked this more)

^ hela jealous odin replaced her with Thor

^ loki jealous that Thor got more attention than he did from their parents + people in general (all this attention wasn't a good thing) (funnily enough, for someone who is said to be SUPER jealous, this is the only time in canon I can think of Loki actually admitting that he is)

so anyway, sibling resentment HAPPENS but everyone is still abused/neglected and it all sucks and EVERYONE deserves therapy. And hey, if Frigga decided to actually be a parent to one of her kids (she didn't) then I am HAPPY because at least SOMEONE got a parent, even though Thor deserved a mom just as much as Loki did.

#thor meta #loki meta #hela meta #hela #loki #thor #odin's a+ parenting #child abuse #we do not talk about sibling relationships and abuse enough #it would have helped me so much when I was younger if I knew any of this instead I just thought i was a monster #turns out i was just 13 and exhausted

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racefortheironthrone · 4 months

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Who's a more powerful atmokinetic, Storm or Thor?

Hah! Great question, but one that better writers than me have answered before...

If we were to score it like a boxing match, I think this is one that would have to go to the judges and end up in a narrow split decision, largely depending on whose book the fight is happening.

Ever since the Asgardian Wars crossover in 1985, it's been established that Storm is Thor's peer - capable of taking up the mantle of the Goddess of Thunder and one of the few individuals worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

In later comics, people have explored the similarities and differences between Storm and Thor - and what they have generally settled is that Thor has something of an edge when it comes to his speciality of Thunder, Storm is more versatile and flexible because she can control all forms of weather.

In conclusion: power scaling is dumb and there's more interesting ways to think about the question that result in richer and more meaningful stories, and you should definitely read the Asgardian Wars and Al Ewing's Immortal Thor.

#marvel #marvel meta #thor #storm #ororo munroe #thor meta #al ewing #asgardian wars #immortal thor #xmen #xmen meta #chris claremont

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tallseaweed · 14 days

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Buddy Request: are you a Loki obsessed high fantasy lover?

I would really like to connect with fellow Loki fans who want to rant about/analyze Loki and Thor's psychology, family dynamics, Asgardian society, Jotunheim, magic/seiðr, and the Nine Realms. Ideas/thoughts that aren't canon-compliant with the MCU are more than welcome!

Here are some fics with these types of themes that I have thoroughly enjoyed and been inspired by:

Ásgarðrian Galdr by Valerie_Vancollie

Frostbite by Maiden_of_Asgard

Once More With Empathy by Kairyn ( @bfaymiller )

A Fairytale Beginning by the_lady_amphitrite ( @the-lady-amphitrite )

Let me set the scene:

For the past year and a half, I've been working on developing a longfic featuring a Thor 2011 Loki and an OC Sigyn. Honestly, I don't think that I'll get around to posting it anytime soon (there's still so much work to be done on it), but it's constantly on my mind. It's sort of a hybrid concept of the MCU, Norse Mythology, my own ideas, OCs, and magic systems. It has an epic scope with multiple arcs and characters from most of the Nine Realms. Do you like characters with wings? I got you covered. An imminent threat to the Nine Realms? Check. An in-depth analysis of Ásgarðr and Jǫtunheimr's history uncovered during Loki's identity crisis? A Jǫtunn OC? A Laufey that never wanted to lose their child? Check, check, and check.

I've found it hard to talk to people about all this because it involves a LOT of worldbuilding. Epic fantasy definitely isn't for everyone and this will not be a "light" read. Some non-fanfic stories that have inspired me along the way include the Roots of Chaos series by Samantha Shannon (The Priory of the Orange Tree and A Day of Fallen Night) and Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. So if you like those types of stories, you might like the ideas I come up with.

If you relate to anything I've said, I also want to mention that I would love to hear about your ideas as well! If you feel trapped inside your own head and feel hesitant to "info-dump" on people, I am the person for you. And hey, maybe we can inspire each other :) Fanfiction is not about gatekeeping, and I have been unabashedly inspired by so many different takes on Loki that I've read along the way.

Sending this out into the Tumblr void, hoping it finds the right people!

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illwynd · 4 days

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Eternally confused by assertions that Thor and Loki don't like each other.

They love each other, obviously. And sometimes they fuckin hate each other (well, Loki sometimes hates Thor. And Thor is sometimes at least very goddamn righteously pissed off at Loki, whether he'd call it "hate" or not.)

But they do also like each other.

Thor clearly likes Loki. Enjoys and appreciates his company and admires many things about him, despite their many conflicts. And although that's a comics reference, consider Thor's "well of course I want to have my brother come with me on an adventure!" attitude when he's trying to convince his friends to go to Jotunheim with him at the beginning of Thor 2011, and it seems like it's pretty applicable to the MCU as well, at least before TR's moronic retcons.

Is it mutual, though?

... is that a real question?

Loki idolizes him, wishes he could measure up to him, thinks the sun goddamn rises and sets on Thor. "Loki felt no rancor [...] -- his stepbrother was perfect: beautiful, powerful, golden. He adored him. And if Thor repaid that adoration with little slights and humiliations, it was a price Loki was only too willing to pay for his company" (R. Rodi, Loki: Blood Brothers). Yes, another comics reference, but doesn't that also jibe with the movie depiction of Loki who clearly has a less than ideal relationship with the rest of Thor's crew but hangs out with them nonetheless because that's the only way to spend time with Thor?

Genuinely, I can't think of a better metric for liking someone than wanting to hang out with them even when the circumstances make that less than fun for other reasons. Seeing their company as satisfying even if you're both just sitting there doing something that would otherwise suck. And they both seem to have each other as first choice for that, with everyone else a very distant second if they rank at all.

So I just don't get how anyone can try to slot them into some cliche of "siblings who love each other i guess but also can't stand each other at all." These dumb bastards would spend their lives in each other's pockets if they could. They probably had their own secret language as kids, like figured out a way to get around the Allspeak to invent one no one else could understand. Anyone else that either of them dates had better be ready to have the other brother as a constant topic of conversation, because the moment you express annoyance at that they're going to be shoving breadsticks into their bag and making excuses to gtfo. "they don't like each other" what the fuck are y'all talking about.

#thorki #loki meta #thor meta #grand unified theory of loki #theories of thunder #sorry but idc #marvel salt

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thot-son-of-odin · 1 year

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“I was an unloved child,” Loki says.

He means it in the literal sense, he was unloved. He means it in the plural sense too, they were both unloved. Their parents were stingy with their love, it did not flow from them unconditionally. They earned it, begging at a loaded table for scraps, fighting for the right to possess it. They were loved as objects, as possessions. He was unloved and this is a fact to him.

“Your slights are imagined,” Thor responds.

He means it in the literal sense too. Thor has always loved Loki. If there was a table where Loki could gorge himself, it was at Thor’s. Nothing Loki could say or do would stop Thor from loving his little brother. How dare he not acknowledge that. How dare Loki not remember what Thor was to him. He was loved and this is a fact to him.

Neither realize they are both correct.

#thor #loki #thor and loki #thor meta

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thefourthnorn · 3 months

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The more I analyze Thor 2011 (and subsequent media about Asgard), the more I'm baffled that Thor was supposed to be the hero in the movie. Like... legitimately?

Don't get me wrong, I like Thor, but his character arc makes zero sense if you think about anything in the movie deeper than face value.

#thor 1 #thor #thor odinson #odin #loki #marvel #mcu #marvel cinematic universe #Whereas Loki... he's perfect #thor meta #loki meta

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thortwenty151 · 7 months

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Okay you know what? I don’t want this to get lost in tags. Basically, Thor is allowed to have feelings and be messy and imperfect all on his own without it having much if anything to do directly with Loki. Or even indirectly. A huge amount of Thor’s character arc has to do with his relationship to Odin, and his relationship with who he himself is outside of being who he was brought up to believe he was meant to be.

Like he should not have been 1500 years old the first time his mother tells him he can be himself. And see, the trade off of this is that Thor has almost no self-worth nor self-actualization outside of who he thought he was supposed to be. And when the person he was supposed to be fucks up so badly (in his mind), that half the universe disappears…

Well, who is he after that? What purpose does he have? He can’t be the king he was expected to be, because that person doesn’t actually exist.

And because he can’t be that version of himself because of his trauma and grief and guilt, he doesn’t know who he is at all. And so the traumatized, grieving version of himself, the one that can’t get off the couch and has completely, as Chris Hemsworth said, “checked out” isn’t the king he was expected to be, so why bother even trying? He needed some time to not have to try. Valkyrie gets it, she was right in the same place, so she picks up the slack for him, which makes it that much easier to check out more and more. By the time Rocket and Bruce show up, he’s basically decided that this new version of himself is happy, while he’s right on the verge of a breakdown pretty much at all times.

He’s been taught his whole life not to show his people his feelings. His dad’s advice to him about having feelings was basically, go drink, and put on a goddamn happy face because a future king needs to keep his weird gross sadness to himself.

So Thor does exactly that: his feelings are too overwhelming to translate into productive anger (how he usually copes), so it turns inward. And that’s not good because he’s been told not to show his feelings so many times. It’s ingrained. So he drinks and he pretends to be happy, but it doesn’t mean he’s got any sort of sense of identity.

He leaves with the Guardians to try a different version of himself, to middling success in terms of helping him form his own identity, one that had started to heal from all the horrible things that have happened in a time period that, to him, is like a long weekend.

It’s a journey he’s still on, and ultimately it only peripherally has much to do with Loki.

#not to say Loki is not vitally important to Thor’s development #just as Thor is vitally important to Loki’s #there is no Thor without Loki and no Loki without Thor #but Thor has his own issues to deal with sometimes #usually when Loki’s not there #Thor #Loki #Thor Odinson #Loki laufeyson #Thor meta #pro Thor #pro Loki #give Thor a break he’s doing his best

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lucianalight · 17 days

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Arrogance vs. Humility: Thor

There's an interesting post circling in fandom with many great metas and povs and it inspired me to expand on one of its threads. I have made a new post so the length and a different direction of meta doesn't bother op. I have also divided this meta into two parts. The first one is titled Thor because it is mainly an analysis of og Thor and og Loki in Thor 2011 . The second part will analyze Loki series for those who are interested.

Initially what sparked this meta was @tori-artemis (Artemis)' tags under an addition by @geehollow (Hollow). Initially I only wanted to write a short answer but I'm doomed by the narrative so I thought to first see what science has to say and I came across an interesting study and decided to use it in my analysis.

I used colors to quote each person because I'm going to quote two people, a study(indented) and add my own thoughts and I can't keep tagging or writing their names :P :D

So without further ado let's start. The topic was about the vice of Thor vs Loki. While perhaps the goal of the og post was to analyze the the topic through the concept of seven sins and virtues I don't intend to do that because it doesn't include every possible personality trait and it's not accurate enough from a psychological pov.

Vice is the first trait one should consider when creating a character. Vices embody the vibe that sparked the character in your mind, and in turn spark virtues, goals, backstories, everything. Of course it's different when dealing with characters inspired by already existing mythos, that already carry traits one has to grasp.

In the MCU, Thor's initial vice was arrogance. Deep seated arrogance born of being the golden prince, revered and indulged. Loki's initial vice was also arrogance, but born of thinking he's smartest than everyone else, due to having had to act covertly in order to get what he wants because he is not revered and not indulged. For both of them these are things we can and should infer during the first movie.

As you've read Hollow states that the vice of both Thor and Loki was arrogance but in different ways. Artemis wouldn't call Loki's arrogance because Loki clearly behaves in a different way than other arrogant characters like Thor and Tony Stark. Therefore we must first define arrogance.

According to a new study there are three types of arrogance that can be dissected into 6 components.

Individual arrogance: an inflated opinion of one’s abilities, traits, or accomplishments compared to objective truths; Comparative arrogance: an inflated ranking of one’s abilities, traits, or accomplishments compared to other people Antagonistic arrogance: the denigration or derision of others based on an assumption of superiority. The types and components of arrogance depicted in Figure 1 are meaningful together because some of the concepts seem to implicate others. One cannot be overconfident about one’s knowledge in a domain (second-largest box) without first having some relevant limitation in knowledge about that domain (largest box); if one disparages others unfairly (smallest box), one is likely to fail to take their perspective and, further, one is likely to believe in one’s superiority compared to them (third- and second-smallest boxes, respectively); and so on. Therefore, the position of each component in the figure reflects a close dependency. Yet, it is possible for causation to flow from smaller to larger boxes, as well. For example, if one hates an individual for any reason, one might be motivated to underrate their capabilities or motives.

From this definition we can say that both Thor and Loki have levels of arrogance from the start but while Thor until the point Odin banishes him has checked all the six components in the picture, Loki is at a level two.

Thor with limited knowledge and an overestimation of his power decides to go to Jotunheim. He resists the disagreements about his limits and chances and fails to consider perspectives of his friends, his brother and father and Jotuns. He considers himself and his race superior to others and insults and criticizes Jotuns and his father. Loki on the other hand has overestimated his knowledge, abilities and whether or not everything goes according to his plan.

After his banishment, Thor comes down from the level of his hubris. When he fails to lift Mjolnir and after Loki's visit, he realizes that his rash actions had terrible consequences not just for him but for his family too. He's left alone and powerless. He doesn't see himself superior to these humans anymore. Jane helps him see things from different perspectives and as weak as a human he learns his limits. He knows he doesn't have the power to fight the Destroyer so he tries to do the only thing he can do, apologize to his brother. And when it seems that Thor's dying, he doesn't care about glory or what tales Asgard would say of his bravery. All he thinks about is that Jane is safe and that humility and selflessness restores his power. Loki though, in his desperation for acceptance, has made all the wrong choices.

Just as Thor overestimated his power, his physical strength and fighting skills in his attack to Jotunheim, Loki overestimates his power which is his intelligence and planning skills.

Loki in his arrogance thinks he can stage and ruin a heist, prevent Thor's rampage, and get rid of Laufey and Jotunheim through his usual method of solo strategies. He learns consequences when his plans inevitably stumble into variables he hadn't accounted for–the guard taking too much time in warning Odin, learning he's a rejected Jotun prince, being actually made regent, the Warriors Three and Sif and Heimdall betraying him. It's not the fact that he grew up learning underhandedness was his most effective method, it's that in the MCU he applied it presumably for the first time to real big events and had to deal with the consequences.

Loki lacks foresight. Like he lacks seeing all of the possible outcomes of his own schemes. That's how he ends up in a lot of messes in the first Thor film. So yeah - he definitely doesn't fully think things through as much as he'd like to believe himself to. Tbf he's not psychic. But it's more of an over reliance on his schemes working perfectly. That he doesn't consider all of the possible ways that those schemes can go south real fast (and end up doing so). So to me...it's less of it being arrogance of his own intellect and more like his over reliance on the schemes themselves. As well as an overestimation of his own control over the situation. Which *could* be considered arrogance... tho I don't think the film really displays it as such. Or it's just not very *clear* in displaying it as arrogance - like aside from occasionally calling Thor an oaf basically(which tbf he's kinda right with that assessment). And like - considering humans and Jotuns as weak and inferior at best - and monstrous at worst(which is less of a character vice and more of a symptom of Asgard's imperialism).

According to the definition of arrogance, what Artemis describes is in fact a complete list of all the reasons why Loki is arrogant. I also like to add that even the imperialism that causes Asgardians to be biased toward other races is rooted in political arrogance and their sense of superiority(Although we can argue that Loki up until his conversation with Odin, did not believe the Asgardian propaganda as he asked why the truth was hidden from him. It was only after he thought his parents see Jotuns a monsters that he tried to radically separate himself from his race).

Like many aspects in this movie, these brothers are once again a yin and yang to each other. Thor's brawn against Loki's brain. Thor's strength represents Odin's warrior side and he is praised for it. While Loki's wit represents Odin's cleverness but unlike Thor, Loki isn't appreciated for a trait in which he is similar to his father and that's sth he wants to change.

Loki has a good plan, but he fails to consider how his action seem shady to those who didn't like and suspected him. And how that can motivate them to betray him. Everything would have gone according to his plan otherwise. He had managed to trick and kill Laufey, he unleashed Bifrost on those race of "monsters" and he had bested Thor in the battle of brain vs brawn. He was pinned but he thought he had won. He was at the top of arrogance level in his grief and madness.

"Look at you, the mighty Thor, with all your strength, and what good does it to you now, huh?"

He didn't consider that Thor, hot headed Thor who looked down on other races and tried to solve everything by throwing a hammer at it, would try to think his way out of this situation to save the people he previously hated.

In my eyes, Odin's banishment, Jane's and Selvig's and Darcy's companionships are only the stakes that make him walk in the shoes of the other side of the violence, but the real wake up call is seeing Loki behaving and talking as Thor used to.

Thor 1 is the origin story of both Thor and Loki, young princes who discover they were still untested, and Avengers 2012 shows the progression of their arcs after their vice has been exploited with one differing element: a support net being present or absent. Thor always had a support net, Loki never did, and their intertwined story shows exactly how in real life people go down their respective paths.

So if Loki's vice is arrogance why he doesn't behave like Thor or Tony?

Bc tbh I probably wouldn't have even thought of arrogance as a vice for Loki. Like my initial reaction was ''wait no that's Thor". But when phrased like the above... it makes a lot of sense. Like tbh I don't know if I'd call it arrogance in his own intelligence - while he's certainly clever he never seems to overbearing about it. Not in the way similarly clever + arrogant characters like Tony Stark display it anyways. Loki never really... seems particularly arrogant?? Like I wouldn't call him humble either but... arrogance just seems a bit exaggerated tbh. I'd say he definitely has pride... tho I'm not sure I'd call it a vice. Bc let's consider other characters that are clearly written to display arrogance at various levels. Like. Anakin is arrogant. Tony Stark is arrogant. Theon Greyjoy was arrogant. And then there's Thor. And like I know there are probably levels to this and it could be argued that Loki's on the less extreme side...But for a character to be arrogant there's almost always like an indicator to that arrogance in said character's personality? Like something about the way they carry themselves... something in the way they display their genuine belief that they're The Best. I don't really see that with Loki. Again I wouldn't call him humble... but he doesn't have *that* attitude I guess. Compared to Anakin ''I would even stop ppl from dying!'' Skywalker. Or Thor 'throws violent tantrum after dad said no to war w/ Jotunheim' Odinson. Or like... half the shit that comes out of Tony Stark's mouth. XD

Yes Loki doesn't have that attitude. That's because individual differences in unawareness of intellectual limits and personality traits affect how the components of arrogance show themselves in people.

We can illustrate potential relations between personality variables and Components 2 (unawareness of knowledge limitations), 4 (failure to consider the perspectives of others), and 5 (a feeling of superiority). Related to Component 2, Schaefer, Williams, Goodie, and Campbell (2004) examined how the Big Five can predict overconfidence in one’s performance. Only the trait of extraversion correlated with overconfidence (the difference between accuracy and confidence). The extraversion factor may be most related to the aspect of arrogance involving inflated self-appraisal relative to objective reality (Lee & Ashton, 2018). There also have been occasional findings of relations between overconfidence and other Big Five traits like openness to experience and agreeableness

Thor and Tony are both extroverts, so their arrogance or at least the part that involves inflated self-appraisal shows itself through overconfident extrovert behavior. That doesn't mean that Loki doesn't act overconfident. It just shows itself in more subtle ways, like the way he stares at his opponent and in his knowing grin. He's less like boastful I'm-the-best-and-I'm-going-to-beat-you, and more like silent I'm-so-smart-and-you've-fallen-for-my-plan.

Even in Avengers when Loki acts arrogantly more than any other time, his real arrogance is not in the way he presents himself to humans in Stuttgart. That was just theatrics. His arrogance is in the way he grins every time his plans work. In Avengers Loki is in his most arrogant state because he's being influenced by the scepter. The same scepter that can bring the worst of every person in its vicinity which almost made Tony and Steve fight, and even Thor reverted back to his old self calling humans petty and tiny. I also like to mention that it was Tony who understood Loki the most and one of the reasons was because he saw the same arrogance of himself in Loki.

Avengers 2012, Dark World and the stories that followed should have picked up the threads left from the first movie and continued the progression of the vice (flaws+virtues+background) Vs consequences. Some of them did. Some of them did not.

Tldr: both Thor's and Loki's vices were arrogance built in different ways and their arcs showcased how society's (=worldbuilding) support influences the consequences of the same vice until the franchise was rebooted (=different worldbuilding and vices)

Source: Foundations of Arrogance: A Broad Survey and Framework for Research

Next: Loki

#loki #thor #loki meta #thor meta #loki's vice #thor's vice #thor 2011 #avengers

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