#this is coming from a sansa Stan

[fromtheseventhhell]

"Arya wouldn't have been able to survive in KL" is really one of the dumbest fanon takes where you can tell someone only believes it because they like the idea of Arya and Sansa being "exact opposites and perfect complements" (even though it goes against the books). Actual evidence from the books to back it up? Never anywhere to be found despite how confidently people make this claim.

And not only does it severely mischaracterize Arya and ignore what she's been through, it also ignores her importance as a political hostage. The Lannisters weren't searching for her, and lying about having her, for no reason. They needed her because having only one Stark after executing Ned put them in a poor position to negotiate. So Arya would have been more than capable of handling herself (thoroughly shown in her Harrenhal chapters) and the Lannisters would've done everything in their power to keep her alive but, somehow, she wouldn't have been able to survive? It's truly one of those takes that falls apart if you think about it for more than two seconds but apparently, that's too much effort for some people.

#arya stark #asoiaf #as song of ice and fire #anti sansa stans #cause they're the main culprits #the story comes secondary to putting Arya down to prop Sansa up for some people though #it's just one of the dumbest and easily disprovable takes in this fandom #I don't even get mad when I see it cause I know it's not based on anything in the story and it's just fanon misinterpretations #and then they try to be neutral and say that Sansa wouldn't have been able to survive what Arya did but they NEVER point out Arya's #skills + intelligence or talk about what Sansa lacks in comparison or why she wouldn't have been able to survive #a majority of the time it's just /Sansa wouldn't have been able to pass as a boy/ cause they hate complimenting Arya #I'm supposed to buy Sansa as the smartest character in the books but there's nothing in her chapters that her own stans can use to prove it #they have to rely on dropping the intelligence and skills of other characters to make room for her and we're just supposed to ignore that #/Arya wouldn't have been able to survive/ instead of pointing out Sansa's actual skills okay okay got it #personally I'm going to use quotes from my faves chapters to prove their intelligence but I guess that's only if it's actually there...

[stardyng]

Yet another Sansa stan being an Alicent Stan lmao you guys need to stop being so predictable. I don't even hate her show version but the way you peeps love to latch on to a passive redheaded character who accepts her suffering in a feminine woke submissive way is getting comical at this point xD. Stan whoever you want, just keep your same old 'too-powerful-for-their-own-good' Targ takes to yourself thank you

The way you people finds ways to shame and denigrate female characters for how they handle and process patriarchal violence and abuse is absolutely astounding, and imply that there's good victims and bad victims is absolutely ridiculous. None of these characters ''accept'' their suffering. That's such an incredibly disgusting thing to say. They are young girls that live in a society that restricts and limits them, and preys upon them and these are victims to men in power that use that power to use and abuse them as they see fit. That's why (alongside a plethora of other reasons, of course) you're not going to see me shame Rhaenyra for getting groomed by her grown male uncle, or Cersei for getting abused by Robert or Daenerys for being abused by her brother for years and sold to and SAed by a grown man.

All of these characters were stripped of any real choice and power and were forced into submissiveness and passivity by their violently patriarchal society for years and years, and the most meaningful part is seeing them break out of it. Stop making weird connotations to people emotionally connecting to victims of abuse who were regulated and constrained by people that have power over them, and had to survive by enduring and pretending. Like of course this is a narrative that I would be emotionally engaged with considering how much I personally relate to a lot of aspects to it in regards to my own life and experiences, and so many other people see differing aspects of these characters and their hardships, how they endured, who they became and how they broke away from all of the limitations, and it means something to them in regards to their own lives, and that's an absolutely beautiful thing.

Sansa, for example, attempted to kill herself, attempted to push Joffrey off the tower, constantly made digs at him when she could, bolted away and refused to kneel when she was forced into marriage and continuously aimed to get out at the right time. She never ''accepted'' her suffering. She did what she had to do to survive, but there was always steel underneath even as she was only eleven/twelve. There was a lot of power to that, and there was also a lot of power in all of the moments of her faking and enduring these horrors and continuing on pretending regardless. Also, Alicent strode in, interrupted and boldly declared war at her current enemies' wedding. All of these women are forced into horrible positions, had to endure, and break away from it or take control of their lives in their own time. Even if they hadn't endure, or didn't break away from it at the end, they definitely wouldn't be ''worse victims'' for it like you seem to imply. My other issue with the other side of the HoTD fandom is how you all try to dictate who people are and are not allowed to like and what takes people are and are not allowed to have based on your own personal narratives. Also, the ''too powerful for their own good'' isn't just my Targ take, it's the whole conundrum that GRRM explicitly stated he wanted to explore with that family. Like wow I'm talking about what this man wanted his readers to talk about. Big problem. Anyways, if you don't want to see my takes, don't go to my account. Block me instead of immediately checking my account and sending hate in my inbox whenever I make a new post.

#these people are so deep in their own repugnant sexism that they end up coming up with the most disgusting victim shaming takes #I've seen it from other social media sites but multiple years have only further fueled your complete bullshit #sansa stark #alicent hightower #game of thrones #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #house of the dragon #and the way they think they can dictate who people are allowed to stan #and what side people choose like please stay in your own lane #anti targ stans

[agentrouka-blog]

Dany will get in the way of Jon and Sansa. She will get in the way of people of Westeros because nobody really wants her there when they have better alternatives. In the show, Westeros would have been better off if she died in Meereen or just stayed there as Queen eating her figs and having sex marathons with Daario. Without her the Wall would not have collapsed that quickly so it really surprises me when I see D stans with their whole chest saying the Starks should have been grateful. One, she's not the only one contributing to the fight against the dead although more points for her for her army and the dragons but then there's the ice dragon so minus pts. Two she's proclaiming herself as the rightful Queen and that includes being the protector of the realm so it's her job to save the Westerosis. She can't rule a graveyard so it's in her best interest to help. Expecting people to worship her because she "saved" them is not very hero like.

Hi there!

That's a very show-centric view, considering the whole Wall Excursion and Ice Dragon plots - even Dany coming North at all - are unlikely to happen that way in the books, but overall I agree that Dany and her invading army will present a challenge for Westeros that mirrors the Northern one, and it will contribute to adversity faced by the Starks, including Jon and Sansa.

Expecting people to worship her because she "saved" them is not very hero like.

Well, that's been her MO all this time, from the Lhazareen city to Meereen.

I think Volantis will present an interesting deviation because the people there want and expect her intervention and she's unlikely to grant it, given her previous experiences in Slaver's Bay. This will make it possible for GRRM to set up her disinterest in helping the North and the risk attached, and to set that in conflict with both Jon Snow (her newly revealed relative and negotiator for the North) as well as whatever information about Rhaegar's hare-brained prophecy is available to her.

One thing I am sure of is that under no circumstances will GRRM grant legitimacy to that prophecy by actually making the Targaryens, let alone Dany's dragons, in anyway significant in saving Westeros. Seeing the prophecy subverted in this way by having the threat resolved without her (by Bran and a Westerosi alliance between North and Vale probably) will further damage her self-image as the default rightful leader of Westeros, which has been her happy ending fantasy all this time. Who will consider her claim to rule to be justified?

Cue escalating paranoia and a fiery downfall.

#anti daenerys targaryen #jonsa #asoiaf speculation #rouka ask

[lemonhemlock]

strange that people had the thought that sansa was gonna stay in the vale and not go back to winterfell for so long when geographically other than bran(beyond the wall having trippy visions)/jon("dead")/rickon (cannibal island skagos) sansa is way closer to winterfell than a lot of characters and the knights of the vale is pretty much a chekhov's gun especially since like you said they havent joined the war yet and somehow sansa marching to winter fell with them was unbelievable since like 2009-2018 (her story might not follow the show especially because of the diverged storylines and she has the alternative to escape the vale but who knows)

It's no secret that Sansa was a very hated character throughout GoT's run. People ~manifesting she would stay in the Vale was a way of wishful-thinking her out of the narrative. Their dislike made them ignore reason and come up with many silly theories.

Much has been said about Sansa's pawn-to-queen narrative, but the main argument for her surviving the series is that, if GRRM wanted to kill her, he had many, many opportunities to do so in five books and didn't. Sansa is physically and socially vulnerable & her POV focuses on her rich internal world, strength and endurance, yet she remains unscathed and is instead learning court politics. Why is that? It's basic bildungsroman storytelling. Denying that is just being petty at this point.

Sansa also cannot remain in the Vale as Alayne, since that is Littlefinger's plot. Only the most delulu stans will not accept that a shady person such as Littlefinger will face authorial punishment for his sins. And, when he does die, what's stopping Sansa from claiming her identity? Especially as she finds out the feared and detested Ramsay Bolton has married "Arya Stark". She will naturally want to help her sister.

Now, I need to re-read for this, but I believe it is hinted in AFFC that Myranda Royce slyly figured out who Sansa is. If you remember the prologue of AGOT, the fancy, pretentious Night's Watch ranger from the group of three that first encounter the white walkers, is Waymar Royce. He is the third son of Bronze Yohn, head of House Royce. I did a quick search to refresh my memory:

"Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. "And that was not the only time. Lord Royce saw . . . he saw Sansa Stark again at King's Landing, during the Hand's tourney." Petyr put a finger under her chin. "That Royce glimpsed this pretty face I do not doubt, but it was one face in a thousand. A man fighting in a tourney has more to concern him than some child in the crowd. And at Winterfell, Sansa was a little girl with auburn hair. My daughter is a maiden tall and fair, and her hair is chestnut. Men see what they expect to see, Alayne." He kissed her nose. "Have Maddy lay a fire in the solar. I shall receive our Lords Declarant there."

(AFFC, Alayne I)

I mean... you can't be more explicit than that. The Royces know who Sansa is, but they'll just keep quiet and play out this charade?

#sansa stark #ask #anon

[jackoshadows]

What I don't understand is why Sansa stans, who want to get rid of Arya in Winterfell, go for the laziest fanon of Arya being a tourist - a theory that's borrowed from ultimate hacks D&D and the garbage TV show and which ending GRRM has repeatedly disavowed.

Arya becoming some kind of world explorer at the end pretty much ignores her book story, narrative arc, characterization and throws away the material in her so far written 32 pov chapters for an ending they came up with because of a made up headcanon. An headcanon which is far removed from the book character.

If one wants to get rid of Arya in Winterfell to make way for Sansa, the least they could do is actually read Arya's chapters and attempt to come up with an ending that makes more sense for the character.

Arya is a character who wants to help. From Mycah to Weasel to Samwell Tarly, Arya is someone who stands up against injustice even at great risk to herself. She's selfless and would sacrifice her personal happiness for the greater good. She wants things to be better, for herself, for her friends, for the smallfolk.

One ending could be Arya Stark as a leader of the Riverlands, helping rebuild from the ravages of war, helping the people who survived. Arya, who has the empathy and the skillsets to help them, who has listened and learned from her father on how to govern. We see Willow Heddle take care of orphans and managing an inn with a quiet efficiency that mirrors Arya's and Gendry hanging around helping her. I could see Arya and Gendry continue their relationship, fall in love, marry and settle down in the Riverlands while Arya either rules the Riverlands as the Tully heir/Cat's daughter or as Lady of Harrenhal helps Edmure Tully rebuild the Riverlands.

Or, if Jon Snow leaves for beyond the Wall as the leader of the new territories and lands there, maybe Arya goes with him. Considering their close bond and love for each other and the fact that home is where each other is - something else that is again established in the books - if she had no choice but to leave Winterfell, going with Jon Snow to help him lead the freefolk beyond the Wall could be another option.

Or if Bran does end up becoming King on the Iron Throne, then she could stay in KL to help her much loved baby brother. She wouldn't like leaving Winterfell, but Arya is a character who sacrifices and does what's right, no matter how hard it is for her to do personally. Plus, she wanted to be a king's councillor and build things. Her training and skillsets with the FM would also make her alert to any future LF/Varys types trying to plot against Bran - not that someone who can see into the past and present needs a master spy...

Or Arya and Brienne start a school for young girls who are interested in learning different things and have teachers who actually develop their talents based on what they are good at instead of being hateful for what they cannot be.

In my opinion, any of these endings is better than 'Arya, world explorer' an empty, nonsensical ending that has no connection to the character's book story and is actually contemptuous of the suffering and trauma this child has been through over several books. Meet new people and learn new languages? What do these folks think Arya has been doing so far? The girl's been traveling from her second AGoT chapter, meeting countless people. sailed the narrow seas, engaged with new cultures, learned new languages. She's been there, done that.

What's even more ridiculous is that it's Sansa stans who often engage in the oppression olympics of Sansa having suffered the worst, that Sansa 'deserves' Winterfell because she suffered the most abuse, that the only ending that makes sense for Sansa is being back in Winterfell because she suffered so much etc. And yet according to these very same folks, Sansa is going to roll up her sleeves and tirelessly work to lead the people of the North, while Arya is going on a cruise ship vacation and vlog about the new cuisine she is trying out...Hey, maybe after having suffered the most of ALL characters in the series, maybe it's Sansa who deserves the cruise ship vacation, you know?

We have the author himself saying that Arya's harrowing experiences and journey through Westeros and Essos has aged her up so much that he considers the character older than some of the 40 year olds in the books! And yet there are still people harping on and on about tourist Arya ffs.

I personally think Arya will be in Winterfell at the end of the books, either helping her younger brothers Bran/Rickon lead the North or more probably as a leader in her own right.

Arya is a central character in the series, the female character with the most POV chapters. There's no way GRRM has one of his lead female characters end up playing a supporting role in her brothers or sister's story. No way.

The author has given her the character development in the books to lead the North. She has a hulking huge grey direwolf at her side - the sigil of house Stark. She is the lone Stark who has the Stark look. Her direwolf is named after the first Dornish princess who changed female inheritance in Dorne - a big clue for a character who has chafed against patriarchal restrictions on what women can and cannot do. I mean this is how we are introduced to Arya Stark in her very first AGoT chapter:

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested. - Arya, AGoT

It's clear to me that her arc is heading towards her being the first Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North, nicely bookending her arc which started with her wanting the woman to be as important as the man, arguing for equality when it comes to their house. That's how organic story telling and building a narrative actually works.

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar. - GRRM

#Arya Stark #Fandom wank

[swallowtail-ageha]

Scrolling through your asoiaf tag and you have such good and correct opinions like how can anyone love just Dany or just Sansa or just Arya like how can anyone not see the parallels between Dany and Sansa it makes me feel so crazy like why are there so few people who love all the girlies?? I genuinely love every single female POV character and can’t imagine hating any of them. I mean sure yeah Cersei is a villain but you’re telling me her tragedy doesn’t touch your heart? Watching this woman desperately try to avoid her prophecy as it unfolds before you doesn’t have you in a death grip? Or like are you unmoved by Sansa telling an annoying snotty little boy how brave he is because she wants him to feel better? Dany comforting Missandei when her brother dies? Arya getting to the house of the black and white and immediately thinning to being a man a cup of water (or at least what she thought was water)? How about Sansa telling Joffrey she hopes Robb cuts his head off? Dany sassing the man who wants to open the fighting pits? Arya telling Jaquen to kill himself? Like please come on. All three girls are obviously different but they share so many very endearing traits. I am fiercely holding tight to my delusion that Dany and Sansa will bond over stories and songs and Arya will teach Dany about all the flowers in Westeros and then Sansa will show them how to make flower crowns and embroider little emblems on Arya’s clothes

First of all tysm!!!!

The whole arya vs sansa vs dany fandom fight frustrates me to no end, mainly because all parties involved seem to have little to no empathy to the characters whose stans they oppose. It's all maliciously extrapolating some parts of the text to make them see worse than what they are (ex: daenerys' "if i look back i am lost" getting twisted from "dany knows that dwelling on what ifs and turning your back after you have taken a commitment will only damage you in the long term" in "dany doesn't want to reflect on her past mistakes and will go mad and get stabbed to death" or sansa getting frustrated at sweetrobin being a sign of her being ableist and classist while it's. Just a normal reaction of a stressed and traumatized 13 yo who is otherwise very sweet to her cousin)

For loving the female characters same! Even those who commit outwardly villainous acts do get lots of humanizing moments, Cersei, as awful as she is, is simply a product of the hyper misogynistic society she lives in plus years of parental and spousal abuse (and the doomed by prophecy vibes) and. I genuinely don't get how people can look at the walk of shame and say it's a fitting punishment to her crimes

Overall all the hate for female characters that are more complex or more driven or more morally ambiguous than what most female characters are presented as in other media in a fandom who (supposedly) prides itself in liking morally ambiguous characters is.. frustrating, really. I blame both fandom misogyny but also the GoT series, as it's outright changes in female character's actions and stories to make them look better or worse than what they originally were skewered the visions of almost everyone in the fandom (arya is an egregious victim of this. Scenes such as her caring for Weasel or her befriending sex workers in braavos don't exist and they added that "all girls are idiot" scene that i hate and they removed all her plan to free the northmen from harrenal and she got turned from traumatized child to hashtag no one super cool assassin and her character got straight up murdered in the tv series.)

Oh and also for kickstarting the whole jonsa vs jonerys thing which i'm pretty sure is the origin of the stupid dany vs sansa wars

And yes!! Dany Sansa and Arya should get to meet and reunite! While i do think that there will be some slight tensions between Sansa and Arya because they left on Not So Well terms, they have also matured a lot, so i do think they would have an heartfelt reunion. Meanwhile Dany and Arya could bond because of both their connection to Braavos and Arya's admiration for those who free slaves, and Dany would empathize (and feel a common ground) with Sansa for her being a child who had all her family die and got married extremely young while beeing creeped on by older men, while Sansa, who is shown to admire women like Margaery or Myranda, who are shown to be very keen regarding politics or social issues, something that Dany is

In the end, i genuinely hope that all three of these traumatized little girls get their happy ending and none of them dies, they all are interesting and complex characters that share parallels with each other, and it sucks that because of stupid ship wars or discussions on who would get the throne they get pitted against each other. THEY WOULD BE FRIENDS Y'ALL

#anyways i am holding onto the hope that ADoS ends with dany legalizing gay marriage and marrying sansa #sorry if it gets super rambly and incoherent anon because i always tend to do this when i get an ask #i just want to tell you that your ask made my day and it was all on point!!!! i hope you have a nice week month year life #asoiaf

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

TG stans and stansas rejoice in and ridicule women who get brutalized by their intimate partners, suffer traumatic miscarriages, lose almost all their children, and are murdered by a family member then turn around and cry about Helaena and Sansa's treatments in the fandom.

TG stans call Rhaenyra a fat whore, call her lazy for not riding a dragon into battle after a traumatic miscarriage (btw it takes 1-2 months to recover from a miscarriage), mock Visenya's death, and view the rest of Rhaenyra's children as subhuman. But when TB points out how Helaena and Aegon were both overweight in the book, talk about how Helaena went insane after B&C, and how she doesn't do much plot wise in either the book or show, they start bitching.

They complain about how people shouldn't target Helaena's weight, we should be sympathetic to her after her son is murdered, and she's really a victim so we should pity her not critique how little she does. Yeah, I agree, Helaena deserves sympathy for everything that happened to her, but so does Rhaenyra. But that doesn't matter to greenies, they just hate Rhaenyra so much that they'll act just as if not more awful than the misogynistic lords of Westeros.

Stansas will blame thirteen year old Dany for the crimes of her father, blame a bridal slave for the acts of her husband who bought her, call her a psychopath for not "properly" mourning her abusive brother who threatened to carve out her unborn baby, mock Rhaego's death, say she's a selfish person for freeing slaves, say she's a tyrant/horrible ruler for not perfectly dismantling a system built on millenia of slavery, mock her death, and theorize she'll turn into an mad tyrant based on nothing.

But if anyone criticized Sansa's portrayal on GoT, say she was being willfully ignorant in AGOT, talk about how she's persisting in her fantasies, critique how she acted in seasons 7/8, or theorize literally any ending for her character other than being qitn, they're sexist and hate all "feminine" women. They come up with the most horrible theories and write such hateful metas about Dany but then turn around and act like they and Sansa are the ones being victimized.

The shear hypocrisy of TG and Sansa stans is astounding, it's no wonder those parts of the fandom overlap so much. As long as they have their victims that they can project onto (Alicent/Helaena and Sansa), they're happy. But if anyone dares to criticize the characters or point out actual facts from the story, they turn around and bitch about how much we "hate their poor babies". It's just so frustrating seeing how much they hate and hate Rhaenyra and Daenerys yet reject anything that doesn't align with their ideas.

#rhaenyra targaryen #daenerys targaryen #anti team green #anti sansa stans #team black #house of the dragon #asoiaf #game of thrones #anti show sansa #sansa stark #helaena targaryen

[racefortheironthrone]

Greetings! I'm asking the reverse of a question from a few weeks ago.

Who would be each ASOIAF character's favourite X-man, or mutant if you prefer? Obviously there's a lot of ASOIAF characters, only whoever strikes your fancy of course.

Thanks!

I could have sworn I had done this years ago, but I think I must have gotten a draft or something eaten back in 2018 when I did the reverse of this. In order to make this a bit more manageable, I'm going to stick with ASOIAF POV characters only.

Bran - Xavier. A morally ambiguous disabled psychic. Kind of over-determined, really.

Catelyn - Madelyne Pryor. A wronged wife with red hair granted dark powers to wreak revenge.

Daenerys - Jean Grey. A woman of immense supernatural power who literally walks through fire? C'mon.

Eddard - Cyclops. Honorable warrior respects honorable warrior.

Jon - also Cyclops, but only after the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Arya - Laura Kinney or Gabby. Not sure which.

Sansa - starts as Firestar fan (justice for Lady Butterrum!) ends as Emma Frost stan.

Tyrion - this is more a deep cut, but I think Tyrion would be a huge Whiz-Kid fan, especially his S.W.O.R.D era incarnation.

Theon - I think Theon would be a Quentin Quire fan; something about the combination of great potential and raging insecurity.

Davos - Gambit comes closest, but I could see an argument for Storm, especially Storm's depowered era.

Melisandre - Rachel Summers. Fire, Mother Askani prophecies, the whole shebang.

Jaime - big fan of the Fenris twins. Just kidding. He's super into Angel/Warren Worthington III, and has confused thoughts about whether Warren is better off with Candy Southern or Psylocke.

Brienne - super into the Captains Britain.

Samwell Tarly - I think he'd be a Beast fan, but Percy's X-Force would make him very sad.

Aeron Greyjoy - Exodus is another predetermined choice.

Victarion Greyjoy - doesn't see why Sabertooth has such a bad reputation.

Asha Greyjoy - big Laura Kinney fan.

Arienne Martell - I could see her being an Emma Frost stan.

Barristan Selmy - Cable. Again, white-haired grizzled soldier who protects children of destiny. Not a hard pick.

Quentyn Martell - has a soft spot for Beak.

#xmen #xmen meta #asoiaf #asoiaf meta

[esther-dot]

i'm a sansa stan first and foremost, and i tried to ship s@nsan so hard lmaooo but when they start saying shit like "sansa has wet dreams about the hound" and "sansa actually likes older men", argh, i just can't. do. that. i know george said something about playing with it in the books, but i also think that he wanted to raise a few questions with the relationship, one of them being "who protects sansa from her protector?". like, there's TRAUMA in there. it's funny that they accuse jonsas of using sansa as a self-insert bc i don't know if you ever read a s@nsan fic or saw the fanarts, but they REALLY wanna bang that man 😭

(about this ask)

Nothing in the fandom horrifies me as much as Sansan. I’ve had nice Sansans come into my inbox, so I do distinguish between my feelings about the ship and the shippers, but I hate the reinterpretation of the Hound because it minimizes what he did/tried to do to Sansa. Instead of the later scenes where Sansa thinks of him being about her processing the trauma of his assault, suddenly, they become a gross villain whitewashing, victim-blamey, “actually, she wanted it.”

I once even highlighted that whole "who will protect us from the guards" idea you mention because I think it was meant to emphasize what a travesty the Hound’s assault was:

(link)

This isn’t a romance, this is a pattern. The Hound saves her than tries to rape her, Tyrion is kind to her then agrees to marry her, a child, a prisoner of his family, and LF rescues her but then starts to sexually molest her. All the same, in each of these instances, Sansa is grateful, she thinks kindly of them, and I think that says a lot about Sansa that you completely miss if you romanticize it and pretend that the Hound is someone, something to her, that he isn’t. I also talk about the whole cloak thing in that post too because I think the more contextualized reading is the one we’re meant to adopt.

When I did take a look at the meta, I was so creeped out by the nature of it and the art. Although, I want to give credit where it’s due. Apparently they were some of the first people to start taking Sansa seriously and created the reading of Sansa becoming a political factor, so they did change the fandom’s perception of Sansa in a good way. But imo their love of the Hound causes an imbalance in how they read their scenes. The point isn't that the Hound wouldn't have hurt Sansa, the point was that he very well might have but Sansa's actions stopped him which ties into a much bigger idea and important aspect of Sansa's story:

Even after the Hound assaults Sansa, later, she thinks of how terrifying the fire was, as in, even then, she is able to empathize with him, the man who held a knife to her throat and threatened to kill her. It’s laughable to suggest a man who mocked her relentlessly for who she was is capable of the same consideration. In fact, it is in a state of terror that the Hound attempts to rape Sansa and his fans use that to excuse his actions, and yet, while he is assaulting her, Sansa sings of mercy, gently touches his cheek. It’s almost like the very obvious interpretation, that the way to create a better world is Sansa’s method— not his— is what Martin expected people to understand, and his surprise people have turned it into something else altogether is genuine. (link)

As for Martin admitting he "played" with it, here's a clip. It's very short, and he's expressing surprise that his female readers like villains of which the Hound is one, and I think you can tell by his facial expression that the idea of the Hound and Sansa as a couple, is absolutely not where he ever intended to take things, not what he meant when he said he played with it. There are countless old monster movies with the monster being fascinated with a young girl or beautiful woman which humanizes him/shows a soft side. That's similar to Beauty and the Beast, the girl is what allows the monster to become human again, but in these variations, it isn't a romance. You can play with/reference tropes and ideas without it actually being a direct reiteration of the original story.

Anyway, filter and block and curate your fandom experience! 😅

#anti sansan #dot chat #< for filtering

[alicenttully]

I just think it's funny this "Sansa fans ignore other characters" often comes from the same crowd who like to diminish her importance even though they have nothing substantial to base that on or deny that she is a heroine in her own right.

Honestly, not only is this idea of the fandom just blatantly untrue, but to me it very much reads as readers are in the wrong for even liking Sansa in the first place, so they have to "make up for it" by also stanning (in their eyes) "superior" characters.

#sansa stark #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #anti asoiaf fandom

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

Sansa has the themes about beauty and how beauty is only skin deep. It's Sansa who has Beauty and the Beast motifs. It's Sansa who has heavy Medusa symbolism. It's GRRM who has no qualms about disfiguring characters, including little girls. What if I speculated with canonical evidenceand foreshadowing that Sansa is going to be disfigured in the end? How many of the people claiming that it's okay for Arya and Brienne to be ugly and bitching about "prettycourse" would have a conniption if I went into the main ASOIAF tag and Sansa's tag and made speculation posts and claims of this? Oh, I don't even have to imagine it. My inbox would be full of death threats for even daring to speculate that because these people actually do care deeply about looks and how Sansa is "oh so beautiful" and how she must remain that way. I mean, that's her most important character trait to them. So I'm supposed to believe that their "Arya is ugly and that's okay!" posts are positive when they are blatantly disregarding Canon that tells us Arya is pretty? Of course, it's okay if a character is ugly because that doesn't indicate who they are on the inside or how important they are (especially in ASOIAF). I wouldn't give a flying fuck if Arya was canonically ugly, because I'd still love her. Just like I love Brienne who is canonically ugly, but the thing is Arya is canonically pretty. So these people are really fucking blatant when they disregard Arya's canon just to call her ugly. We all know it doesn't come from a genuine place. It comes from bias, fanon, and them trying to disregard Arya being more important to the narrative than Sansa. They can't stand that Arya is the main female protagonist besides Dany. They can't stand the thought that Arya may accomplish things Sansa may never do, so what do they do? They call Arya ugly to try to diminish her. They may make pretty posts about how it's okay that Arya is ugly and include Brienne in there because Brieene is a less threatening character to Sansa stans, but we know this is insincere fucking bullshit. Maybe if you all want "prettycourse" to stop, you should just accept canon and stop stirring the pot because it's not Arya stans who instigate these things it's pathetic Stansa's.

#arya stark

[fromtheseventhhell]

Stansas: Arya and Dany are too far gone, they have no chance at having a happy ending, they're so evil/feral/wild, they're nothing but male power fantasies, they aren't "real" female characters like our uwu soft girls, they're just girl bosses (derogatory), Arya is responsible for Lady and Mycah's death, Dany is responsible for her brother's death, Mirri was right for forcibly aborting her child, Arya is actually just like Joffrey for causing Sansa pain, Dany is mad for killing slavers, Arya is a demon for killing a guard while escaping from being a prisoner of war, neither of them are going to be important in the end, the best they can hope for is serving as props in other character's stories uwu

Stansas *2 seconds later*: Why don't people in fandom have compassion and sympathy for young female characters? 🥺

#anti sansa stans #fandom nonsense #like the call is coming from inside the house friends #cause having compassion for female characters also includes Dany and Arya and that doesn't change just because you don't like them #being misogynistic and then complaining that people don't have sympathy toward your fave I really have to laugh at the hypocrisy #it's like they think they're invisible when they're sending hate to Arya and Dany + their stans...did you know we can see that actually? 😭 #Somehow they can't grasp that being misogynistic toward them contributes to fandom misogyny and negatively affects their fave #like yes women are women and misogyny is misogyny 💀 #but then they are the definition of /no thoughts head empty/ so that tracks #and then their activism is just putting down /lesser/ female characters instead of going after the actual misogynists in fandom

[lives4lovesworld]

there is something to be said about the pathetic and ridiculous stansas' strawman argument that Sansa is being hated for enjoying romance and fantasy stories and songs 😂;

When i) I have never witness this, its only ever said by her stans that she gets hated for that. So much so it's her most prominent hate that has to be called out.

iii) What takes the cake however is the hypocrisy (as always); childlike naivety is something to applaud when Sansa displays it, it makes her promising for any power role ("emBodImEnt Of hOpe foR fuTUre") a romantic idealist, but with Daenerys? Oh honey no, in that case its pathologize as megalomaniac delusion, first displayed trait of the genetic madness that slumbers within her. Sansa's qoute "If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me" gets her rewarded with the fandom's marxist nobleprize, meanwhile Daenerys gets thousand edits from them with the qoute "the way to hell is paved with good intentions" and is a cult leader and tyran unseen before for wishing to beloved by her subjects for her ACTUAL work and sacrifices.

ii) The idea alone that she; one of the most safe character in the series: a passive status qou conforming highborn girl with the most disproportionated popularity amongst the fandom, is single out in the series and hated for THAT is so ludicrous her stans should come up with a better strawman argument. She is not in the least unique (which is were her actual problems lies) for that; a lot of female AND male character in the series do so.

#asoiaf #✨vent time✨ #fandom wank #fandom double standards #fandom hypocrisy #anti sansa stans #anti stansas #daenerys targaryen #targnation

[agentrouka-blog]

i always love your responses because i think you do such a good job explaining things (even though some of it is just common sense)... so i was wondering if you could read this meta? i've come across this sort of idea about sansa before in their circles, but this is the first time that i've seen them try to argue that she is somehow inherently unloveable *rolls eyes*

-Something I find really interesting is that for all Sansa craves admiration and “love” from others, she’s not especially good at making friends or inspiring supporters. When people do decide to support or “befriend” her in the story, it is always with ulterior motives—almost all of which serve themselves. This includes characters like the Hound, whose connection to Sansa is built off his own ideology concerning knighthood and gender in their social system.

Her inability to create that support system is partially due to her environments: King’s Landing and the Vale, neither of which are necessarily forgiving places. However, despite her hostage status and shamed House, Sansa is still a valuable person to befriend, even if only for ladies. She’s pretty, performs her ladyhood well, has a famous bloodline, and is tied to the very wealthy ruling family. What’s more, she’s obviously mistreated (for a portion of her time in the capital) and without much actual power. If anything, she should garner sympathy friendships, but with everything else in mind, she should attract at least some love, some support that isn’t totally disingenuous or self-serving, however minuscule. And yet even that eludes her for some reason.

The way similar characters—her siblings particularly—so easily find friends and supporters throughout the books really draws Sansa’s lack of them to the forefront. Jon, for example, finds friends in both the Night’s Watch and amongst the wildlings. Bran forms close friendships with Jojen and Meera. Arya literally makes friends in nearly every place she goes, be they high- or lowborn. Daenerys finds companions in her ladies and Missandei and gathers loyal supporters in people like Ser Barristan. Even Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart earns the support of the Brotherhood. Granted, many of these supporters operate in their devotion to specific Houses, but they’re not doing it to serve their own wants and desires, which is a stark contrast to those “supporters” who surround Sansa at various times.

All in all, I’m intrigued at the way Sansa’s desire for love—genuine or affected—evades her while many of her contemporaries, misfits and traditional characters alike, garner it quite easily. Aside from her environments, what is it about her specifically that seems to repel genuine relationships? And what does this persistent inability to gather loyal friends, companions, and supporters indicate about her future role, if there is one?-

if you can probably tell its written by an arya stan

I laughed. 😂 Anything to cling to the idea of queen Arya - or rather not!queen Sansa.

As if being a hostage of the royal family in the royal palace in the royal capital, surrounded by enemies and spies is not the entire reason Sansa is isolated. Do they even consider how much more risk is involved in even casually approaching her, than there is for anyone having a chat with "Arry" or "Nan" or "Cat"? There is nothing "partially" about it. She is a well-guarded hostage and no one safe and well-intentioned enters the perimeter of her prison, end of.

Once Sansa is in the Vale, she is still more difficult to approach by anyone than a "simple" lowborn girl, as the bastard daughter of Littlefinger (soon Lord Protector) - who takes pains to control who she interacts with and how. And still she begins to form tentative bonds to the people around her - mindful to keep her emotional distance to a degree after what happened with Margaery and Dontos.

Which highlights another crucial aspect. Arya's bonds? Generally represent her attachment to others, not the other way around. She declares Hot Pie and Gendry her pack and feels betrayed that they have their own lives and plans, she never asked them if they feel the same way and I doubt it - and yet her bond to Gendry (also on the run, no threat to her!) - is the single most genuine mutual attachment she forms after she becomes a fugitive. Do they think Yoren helped her because she's uniquely worthy and not because she is Ned's daughter? Do they think Jaqen has no ulterior motive? Or Harwin and Beric? They are kind because they can afford to be but their motives are their own ends. Do they think Lady Smallwood would have somehow withheld this same kindness from Sansa? The captain of the Titan's Daughter knows she is connected to the Faceless Men, ffs. And what possible risk is attached to the women of the Happy Port being kind to a beggar girl?

To her vast credit, Arya forms quick and genuine attachments to other people. More so than Sansa, whose situation also doesn't allow for it. But these attachments don't represent a support system and they aren't deep bonds.

This distorted representation of their ability to connect to people certainly doesn't allow for some kind of speculation how Sansa would act and be perceived in a safe environment and or in a role of political leadership.

#sansa stark #anti arya stans #anti sansa antis

[lemonhemlock]

i get what you’re saying but i get what dany stans are saying too, what is the difference between dany taking back kl and sansa taking back winterfell? at the end of the day, monarchy sucks and none of these characters are truly "worthy"

I approached this topic more in-depth here and here.

The difference between Dany taking back King's Landing and Sansa taking back Winterfell lies in the construction of legitimacy. When engaging with medieval fantasy, rejecting its political framework and ignoring its limitations in absorbing more egalitarian ideology (and the socio-technological constraints that inform those political/philosophical limitations) is going to prove a fruitless pursuit. Westeros is roughly based on feudal Europe and has a recognizable European political thought inheritance and recognizable medieval technology and means, so I think it would be reasonable to employ political philosophy that could be plausibly applied during the period from which it takes inspiration.

~unnecessarily long essay no one asked for below~

In this regard, what makes for a "worthy" ruler in medieval times might differ with the passage of centuries, as socio-political practices transform. Which is why I feel like the validity of monarchy as a form of government was never truly under question in this setting, even though it has certainly been criticised and points have been made about social injustices arising from wealth disparities and the segregation of social spheres (I hesitate to call them social classes as I don't think the Westerosi have developed class consciousness yet).

I think that this is ultimately an element of disappointment for some readers, who are trying to project onto the text something that is not there, instead of switching to progressive fiction that addresses their concerns and presents alternative political systems. What I mean to say is that dismissing all types of monarchy as illegitimate is not useful within the text, as it renders all differences between the characters null & ignores the entire historical evolution of the concept of legitimacy. So you end up with takes like "it doesn't really matter who sits the throne". It matters very much to Martin, because that is the type of story he is trying to tell, that's... the entire point of the series. He is a boomer writing about dragons and knights in the 90s, not a transformative political thinker who is going to smack us with a new social order at the end of the series. That doesn't mean he can't critique the system or the characters' approaches to ruling. That's why he keeps killing the unfit kings & punishing those who rely on wanton brutality.

Coming back to the question, Dany's family was deposed, meaning that, legally-speaking, she doesn't have any "birthright" to the throne of Westeros anymore, no matter what she tells herself. Is deposition legal? John Locke certainly thought so in his Second Treatise of Government, chapters "Of Tyranny" and "Of The Dissolution of Government". Below we have Jean-Jacques Rousseau, "Discourse on Inequality":

OK, these are Enlightenment thinkers, but the concept was not new. The Magna Carta of 1215 certainly has a provision for this. That's medieval enough, I feel.

(Ralph V. Turner, "Magna Carta Through the Ages", Harlow, Pearson Longman, 2003 - the original article was too long lol but anyone can look it up for themselves).

Thomas Aquinas, "Summa Theologica", 1274:

etc.

You will find these ideas under the term "right of revolution".

Many medieval kings IRL have been deposed or lost their crown. Richard II, anyone? There's an entire play about it. So, yes, Robert Baratheon is the legal king of Westeros at the start of AGOT and Viserys / Daenerys simply are not. There is no birthright to speak of, that is just Dany's entitlement that goes unchecked and unquestioned.

Of course, crowns can be won back by the right of conquest, which is what Dany is trying to do. GRRM's plan for her seems to either be rejected by the people of King's Landing for whatever reason (a la Rhaenyra maybe) or for her to commit such an atrocity on the city in her attempt to seize it that it disqualifies her as a potential ruler because she breaks the normal rules of engagement to a horrifying degree (i.e. dragonflame). Dany's entire plan is questionable from the start, since she intends to mount an invasion on a people brutalised by several years of war already, on the onset of winter - essentially extra suffering. The conditions are there so that the Westerosi might not interpret her actions as liberation, but merely as another pretender to the throne, who is only after her personal betterment - basically no different from what they've seen before, so no reason to join her cause or believe in her propaganda. She will bring fire-breathing monsters, Dothraki and Unsullied warriors to their lands, whom they fear and for whom they have no kinship. They have no particular attachment to the old Targaryen kings either. In short, Dany's father was deposed and she will end up deposed herself because of her own actions (or never recognised in the first place). I'm not saying this because I have beef with Daenerys, she is not a real person who did me wrong, she is a fictional character the author is using to illustrate a political idea.

Whereas the people of the North maintain a very favourable view of the Starks and of Ned Stark in particular. They are seen as the legitimate rulers of the North and their replacements (the Boltons) are almost universally hated. The text is littered with "the North remembers" and "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and general Stark-fawning. The people of the North were very eager to name Ned Stark's son as their king. The people of the Night's Watch voted for Ned Stark's 15-year-old bastard as their leader. Ramsay Bolton pretends to marry Arya Stark to consolidate his legitimacy as the ruler of Winterfell and the North. Many other characters covet Sansa for the same reason. The Starks have not been deposed, unlike the Targaryens, they're just missing / presumed dead and Winterfell is up for grabs. None of our Northern characters think how lovely it would be if we had a Targaryen restauration. These things may seem like candy floss to the modern reader and they may not resonate, but they mattered a lot in the past. So when Sansa takes back Winterfell, it will be with the backing of the majority of the Northern population and with the help of the Knights of the Vale, who are seen as honourable and are of Andal descent, so will not be perceived as foreign invaders. No one in the North will be contemplating their right-to-revolution against the Starks, because they will be revolting alongside Sansa to free themselves from the abusive Bolton rule.

Sansa rebuilds Winterfell out of snow and thinks of it warmly as her home, feels kinship and connection with the place she grew up in, whereas Daenerys feels possessive over a land she's never seen and wants to take it with "fire and blood". True, these are not actions, not crimes for Dany and neither acts of benevolence for Sansa. They haven't done anything yet. But they are images. Framing. Hints. That's how literature works.

Could Dany be given a narrative of Westerosi restauration? Could GRRM write her as gaining popular support and as not breaking the social contract while installing herself back on the throne? Had only Book 1 been published, these questions would have had more validity. But after Book 5? Not when Martin frames her like that and literally kicks her out of the city she conquered.

#not me writing a whole ass paper on this LOL #🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ #ask #anon #asoiaf #grrm #asoiaf endgame #anti daenerys targaryen #sansa stark

[jackoshadows]

I don’t understand the logic of people who think Sansa has more skills than her siblings because she knows her courtesies, learned how to handle a 8 year old and is now seducing a womanizer (I’d give her more credits if Harry was like Stannis lol). Arya speaks 5 languages, can tell truths from lies, can lie very well, is good at spying, is a powerful warg, has knowledge of poisons, is well acquainted with the small folk. Bran ruled Winterfell and is the most powerful greenseer. How are Sansa’s skills more useful? Why would Jon NEED her as his bride? Every Jonsa claims she’s oh so necessary, and I don’t doubt it. I want her to learn the meaning of Winter is Coming and help mitigate the food shortage by providing grain to the North, but she’s far from being as skilled as her siblings unless we’re talking about embroidery and harp playing.

Sansa stan logic:

GRRM has written nothing for Sansa as a leader of the people unlike the whole books he wrote for Jon and Dany where they make mistakes or Arya leading her small wolf pack or Bran as Prince of Winterfell. That’s why she’s going to end up the endgame best leader of the series because Jon, Tyrion and Dany's arcs are actually about Sansa becoming a leader.

GRRM has written nothing for Jon and Sansa in terms of a relationship, they hardly mention each other or care for each other on the page despite growing up together. That’s why they are going to be the central, most important and best romantic relationship in the books.

GRRM has not connected Sansa to the Northern plots and characters there like he has Arya, Bran and Jon. That’s why she is the ONLY KEY TO THE NORTH and going to be the Queen in the North and leader of their people.

GRRM killed off Lady early into the books while writing Summer, Nymeria and Ghost connecting the Stark kids through wolf dreams, helping them develop and build their warging powers and in the case of Nymeria gather a huge wolf pack in the Riverlands. This is why the direwolves are unimportant in the story and don’t really matter for the Starks or their Stark identity.

GRRM has written the very least for Sansa thinking of her father and she never remembers his advice or wisdom or takes strength from his words like he has done for Jon, Arya and Bran. This is why Sansa is the most like Ned, the Nediest of the Stark children, a mini Ned in the making.

GRRM has not written a magical/fantasy plot for Sansa like he has for Dany, Bran, Arya and Jon. That’s why ASoIaF is mostly about the politicking happening and fantasy/magic is boring/unimportant/bad/evil.

And so on and so forth. It really is fascinating to watch this huge subsection of fans reading an entirely different series of books to the rest of us, think characters who have magical arcs in a high fantasy series are unreliable or evil or write essays on who is the best and smartest leader based on tradfem standards of femininity etc.

#asks