#this actually means the state needs to drug us so people won't kill themselves because of the lack of sun

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Dialogue Parallels Between TWB Coda and Beth/Daryl From @wdway (Part 2)

@wdway:

I'm going to talk about the dialogue in the TWB coda but before I start I want to say that I just went to your Tumblr site, @twdmusicboxmystery to check out what you had written about the coda back in the day.

I probably should have done this days ago but I didn't and I wanted to see if what I'm about to present was a different direction from what you wrote and what we were discussing right after it aired. What I'm about to present is different. I've stated many times I'm not a writer but you guys are so I have many questions that I want to ask y'all about on your takes on the wording comparing it to Beth's journal entry from Inmates and some lines from episode Still.

I took a shot of the dialogue in the code from your post.

Beth's journal entry from Inmates.

Hey. I know It's been a while. I'm going to be honest, I forgot about you. After the farm, we were always moving. But something happened. Something good. Finally. We found a prison.

Daddy thinks that we can make it into a home. He says we can grow crops in the fields, find pigs and chickens, stop running, stop salvaging. Lori's baby is just about due. She'll need a safe place when it comes. The rest of us we just need a safe place to be. I woke up in my own bed yesterday. My own bed in my own room.

But I've been keeping my bag packed. Keeping my gun close. I've been afraid to get my hopes up thinking we can actually stay here. The thing is, I've been starting to get afraid that it's easier just to be afraid. But this morning daddy said something. If you don't have hope, what's the point of living? So I unpacked my bag and I found you. So I'm going to start writing in you again. And I'm going to write this down now because you should write down wishes to make them come true. We can live here.

We can live here for the rest of our lives.

(This next part was voiced over at the end of Beth and Daryl segment of the episode as they are sitting across from each other with the fire between them.)

We're not going to die. None of us. I believe now. I believe for daddy. If this doesn't work, I don't know how I could keep going.

A few key lines from the fight scene between Daryl and Beth in episode Still.

Beth: killing them is not supposed to be fun. (Now I'm skipping down to just after Beth tells Darly that how he's acting is bullshit.) Daryl: Is that what you think? Beth: That's what I know. Daryl: You don't know nothing. Beth: I know you look at me and you just see another dead girl. I'm not Michonne. I'm not Carol. I'm not Maggie. I've survived and you don't get it 'cause I'm not like you or them. But I made it and you don't get to treat me like crap just because you're afraid. Daryl: I'm not afraid of nothing. Beth: I remember.

When I went back and read the dialogue from the TWB coda I read it several times and certain words stood out to me. They, Them, Their and You. In this exchange the word They shows up 11 times. The word Them 2 times and the word Their 1 time. You 7 times.

W: "if they were to return here... to their work... they might end all of this.. even after all of this time." M: " they should be dead. If they aren't.. and they somehow come back like you... we won't jail them like the others. We'll kill them. End this. You started this. All the teams. Then.. you make it worse."

Gunshot.

I put in the dots, pauses between the words just as they showed up on the subtitles in the episode. You need to read the whole thing several times to get the true effect and being more conscious of how they phrase using they, them and the word, you, are used and what it could mean.

We know the woman changed very quickly after she is shot. It makes me wonder if she's sometime of variance. That when he's talking about they, them, you, he's not necessarily talking about regular people. Have the scientists use experimental drugs on themselves?

"If they somehow come back like you...we won't jail them like the others."

Would you guys check this out with a writers mind because I truly don't know if I'm making something out of nothing but I truly don't think this is nothing.

The thing that made me start thinking of Beth journal entry was the woman talking about hope.

W: I hoped against hope that they...were here. That some how they came back... and that they were still working. And that they were close. (A little further down again about hope.) W: I was tired of running. And I had that hope against hope. And I had to try." Beth: I've been afraid to get my hopes up thinking we can actually stay here. Beth: But this morning Daddy said something. If you don't have hope, what's the point of living? So I unpacked my bag and I found you. It may just be me but her journal had a similar feel to some of the coda women's dialogue.

Now looking at some of the dialogue from Still.

Beth: Killing (them) is not supposed to be fun. Daryl had just shot a walker for fun. Beth used her knife and stabbed it in the head killing it. In this instance the word them=walker. Beth: I know you look at me and you just see another dead girl. I'm not Michonne. I'm not Carol. I'm not Maggie. I've survived and you don't get it but I 'cause I'm not like you or them.

Them=walker but Beth survived and she's not like Daryl or (them.) Am I crazy for connecting these three separate dialogues together? that there's overlapping themes here? Remember Matthew Negrete write both the TWB coda episode and Inmates along with Slabtown.

I'm speculating here (as always) that Gimple and Negrete put the coda in s2e10 The Last Light as a reminder of TWD s2e10, 18 Miles Out, that storyline focused between Rick and Beth and the 3 coda's in s5.

When Matthew Negrete wrote the dialogue for the coda he had certain phrases, words he wanted to include as a call back to certain episodes. That he reviewed Beth's journal entry from Inmates that he wrote just to give a hint for anyone who was looking closely because Beth is somehow the key to what we're going to see and find out in Daryl's spin-off.

I'm going to give you some words/phrases from the three sources I've talked about above TWB coda, Inmates journal and Still. Also a few shots from when certain words were used in episodes just to emphasize that all these words, dialogue and images has a purposeful plan in the new arc of the spin-offs.

From Inmates,

Beth: Daddy thinks we can make it into a home. Episode Home was s3e10. Beth: the rest of us we need a safe place to be. Beth: we're not going to die. None of us.

Episode Us s4e15. TLL coda,

French man: we won't jail them like the others. We'll kill them. Inmates, Beth: killing them is not supposed to be fun. Inmates, Beth: you should write down wishes to make them come true. Still, Beth: I'm not like you or them.

Episode Them s5e10.

Still, Beth: I remember.

Episode, Remember s5e12.

TLL coda,, French woman: I had to try. Consumed, Daryl: I'm trying.

Episode, Try s5e15.

@galadrieljones:

This is SUPER interesting. I need to go and watch some of these scenes I think and I need to think about this a bit. I will come back later tonight maybe to try and talk some of this through. I actually have like several pages in a notebook where I have logged episodes written by Gimple, Kang, Negrete, Powell, Reid, and a couple more.

I lost the notebook and like I can’t find it anywhere but for a while I was trying to draw connections as a way of trying to understand which writers are like, on certain beats.

This analysis fits really close with some connections I drew. One thing I noticed was that Matthew Negrete is really an interesting player here and his involvement in WB made me pretty sure that he has been on the CRM beat from the start, same with Channing Powell.

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #beth is almost here #bethyl

[stxleslyds]

MY TOUGHTS ON PART ONE OF RED HOOD BY CHIP ZDARSKY :)

Finally I have read part one of the Red Hood story in Batman: Urban Legends!

This story is very interesting, we start with the Red Hood looking for the people who are providing Gotham with a new drug. This drug “Cheerdrops” has been passed around for weeks at this point and it has had devastating results among it's users. If you know Jason you understand that drugs are a big issue for him and one that he treats very carefully and seriously. 

As he interrogates people he arrives to the building where one of the dealers of this drug is supposed to be, there he finds a horrific scene, a boy is desperately trying to wake up his mother who appears to have overdosed in her bed. Jason is quick to call an ambulance and get in contact with Oracle in order to find the boy's father who is (as he finds out later) the man that he was looking for. 

Jason sees this scene and can't help but compare it to the time he went through this situation with his mom all those years ago, so he takes the boy with him so he can take him to his father, who Jason is hoping is a good man that had to sell drugs in order to help his family.

That's basically the premise of this first part of the story but now i will write about my thoughts on the specifics of the story.

The story begins with Jason giving a speech about fear and how it's used, 

"Fear. Its a tool, it's his tool. I never really adopted it, maybe because he kept that fear all to himself." Then he continues with "Never had to rely on it, had to work harder to take out the bad guys, had to be...more direct." he finishes that thought with "Rubber Bullets. So that fear doesn't get turned around on me."

I for one really liked this Fear speech, it does really sum up what the Batman does, he relies on the Fear that he imposes on Gotham's criminals and such while Robin on the other hand was never meant to work with fear, which is true.

It did remind me of the speech that Alfred gave in issue #10 of Under the Red Hood about how Batman works with fear and Jason had some thoughts on it, here is some of it, 

"Master Jason had a condescending practice of referring to the costumed criminals elements as 'dress ups'. He also noted that such individuals did not fear the Batman the way street thugs and mafioso did. The 'dress ups' did not believe he was a monster." "...the boy did say something to me that chilled me to the bone...even then. 'They all know he won't kill them.'"

Anyway let's go back to the actual comic I am talking about...

Jason speaks from his position as Red Hood in current time and says that he uses rubber bullets in order to keep the Bat at bay, the fear that the Bat uses against other criminals cannot be used against him if he plays within the Bat's rules.

As he was doing that he was actually trying to get info about who is making the drug but all he was able to get was who was selling it to the person he was interrogating. This drug is dangerous and Jason has to work fast. 

Here is where we see the first flashback scene, we see Jason in the cave before he was able to go out as Robin and he is not to happy about it. The art is very beautiful but sadly in these panels i found my first problem with the context of Jason becoming Robin and how Zdarsky seems to set Jason's feelings on the first Robin.

It seems that Zdarsky is going for the “Jason believed Dick was the perfect Robin and no matter what he did he would never be as good as him” route, which fine ok, that's your right but, is it really necessary? I must admit i am a little tired of this particular thing because i adore the fact that when Dick and Jason first met they were fine with one another (even if a little wary at the very start). And the whole competitive and “i will never be as good as X person” is really tiring in the Robin/Batfamily fandom.

That problem is not as significant as the next one though.

Jason not thinking that Robin was “badass”. Well this is not only a bad take but it's completely OOC for Jason, no matter how you see it. From his first appearance as Robin to the flashbacks in Winick's UtRH and even through both of Lobdell's runs Jason has always loved the concept and the mantle of Robin as a child. 

Batman v1, #385.

So that whole take is wrong, i don't like it and also who on this or any universe would rather call themselves Batboy? Honestly i hope this is never brought up again or i will cry. ((((Also in this house Robin will always be the name that Mary gave Dick and then he used as his hero name so it hurts a lot more))))

Also at the end of this first flashback Jason discovers a room full of firearms and is obviously surprised because Batman hates those so he asks why he has them, B responds that he has to understand how they work for his detective work, but that's not all he says, he also says this “...Guns are a coward's weapon, and we will not be cowards.”

Alright Mr. Zdarsky i see the irony... i also see the Daredevil / Punisher thingie right there.

Anyway we are now back to the present where we see Batman seeing the effects of the drug in one of its victims, after saving that person he takes some samples of the drug. We also get to see two police officers with different views on the “masks”, that's a nice way to set the story after the Joker War and before the Magistrate. 

Back to Jason, he seems to be struggling, he can't find the people making/providing the drugs in Gotham and is also doubting his skills, he tells a man that if the information that he gave him is incorrect he “will find him” followed with another internal speech full of self doubt, “...sure thing Red Hood, right now you can't even find a street drug. Half of Gotham's teenagers could find it no problem. You never were the best detective.”

Alright, so Jason feels insecure about his skills now? First you have pre-Robin Jason not feeling like he could be able to keep up with the first Robin and now, Jason as a grown man has doubts about the skills that he has used for a long while now? I mean, press X for DOUBT because UtRH showed us how much of a badass and extremely skilled he is. This man planed everything in order to turn the Bat's world upside down (and this story has references to UtRH so it definitely happened) and now he feels like he is not that good? 

Shit. i know where this is going, first the insecurities that he has already worked out... I can see it coming, the next big thing will be Daddy issues. Wonderful i hate it and i hope i am wrong because those “issues” are more than resolved, i know that's the only trope DC throws at Jason but honestly how different will it be this time?

Fine, lets move on. Jason finds himself in one of the apartments and what he sees is horrifying. Lying on a bed there is a woman completely catatonic with a horrible smile on her face and right next to her a terrified little boy.

Here is the best take on Jason's character so far. 

Realizing that the child is scared of the situation and the masked man that just came into his home Jason takes off his mask and reassures the kid that he is there to help, it's quickly made obvious that the woman has overdosed on Cheerdrops, he makes sure to call an ambulance for her stating that she seems to be in a  drug-related coma.

Its important to note that Jason is doing this as he is having troubling thoughts about how much this scene reminds him of the time he was in this little boy's (Tyler) shoes. Its hard for him but he soon realizes that he needs to make sure Tyler is safe. 

He asks Tyler if he has another parent, he does and his name is Andy, after taking a look around the house Jason deduces that maybe the father is also taking drugs so if the police comes they will surely take Tyler and put him in the system, this idea is not one Jason is fond of so he calls Oracle, he asks if she can locate Tyler's dad's phone, when she asks about the kid Jason says that he will be the one keeping him safe.

Now we find ourselves back with Batman where he is investigating the components of Cheerdrops, he finds out that the drug is a modified version of Scarecrow's fear gas that gives the victim a sense of extreme happiness instead of fear.

Here we get confirmation of when in the timeline this story occurs, which is after the events of Infinite Frontier (where there was an attack on Arkham and many patients/prisoners were killed or escaped).

B suggests to Oracle that maybe Crane didn't die there and that he might be behind this drug, he will be on the job right away! To this Oracle is like well shit, so she tells B that Jason is also working this case...and here comes a funny yet confusing interaction. 

Barbara says “I know you two aren't exactly friends right now but...” before she finishes Batman interrupts her by saying “He is a killer Barbara. I will do this alone.”

OH BOY is this interaction confusing! First of all may i point out how different this conversation is from the one in Three Jokers where the roles were basically reversed??? Please tell me that i am not the only one who finds that funny! Anyway that story doesn't matter here, but Red Hood Outlaw from Rebirth does, right?

Here is the thing, the last person that Jason “killed” in rebirth was Penguin and he actually didn't do it, he had him trapped in a panic room in his own Casino. Batman already beat the living shit out of Jason in RHatO #25 for it...and some time has passed, B surely found out that Jason didn't kill Penguin by now, i mean isn't he like the best detective to ever detective in the history of the universe??

Not only that but Jason has been using rubber bullets for a while and even at the start he mentions that, he basically implies that he is playing by the Bat's rules to keep him off his back. Maybe B hasn't let go of the duffel bag full of heads or any of the shitty people Jason killed during UtRH??? If B still holds that against Jason then why would he try to make Jason part of his Bat clan at the beginning of RHatO Rebirth? 

Maybe he still thinks that Jason killed the penguin...but even then isn't B working with Harley and Ghost-Maker? You know, people who have killed? Why is Jason different? Did Jason kill someone recently that we don't know about? Jason only kills a very distinct set of people (that are very not nice) so i guess i don't see the logic...

Anyway second flashback, and this time we have a look at what was going on in the Batcave with B and Alfred during the events of UtRH! Nothing that wasn't explored in UtRH is said here but we do see Alfred explicitly telling Bruce how much they failed Jason. There is a heavy insinuation that the fact that Batman keeps sending the Joker to Arkham only for him to escape and kill more people actually makes B responsible for those deaths and i love that. Thank you. 

Back to Jason and Tyler we get to see some very adorable scenes between the two. Jason gives the lower half of his mask to Tyler to protect his identity like a superhero and we have a really sweet moment in which Tyler chooses the Blue Hood as his name because he likes the colour blue (same Tyler).

After he leaves Tyler in a place where he will be safe he goes to the building where Andy should be and let me tell you the more Jason sees the less hopeful he becomes about Andy being just one of the people selling the drug... He does some shooting and incapacitating and then follows the man that is trying to escape and here is when shit hits the fan. 

Andy is a disgusting human being. He hates Tyler's mother and doesn't care that she might be dead and the piece of shit hates his son so much that he gave a barely 10 year old drugs. 

Yeah. BANG BANG BANG MOTHERFUKER. 

If you think that this leads to Jason being a little more like his UtRH self, you know the guy that said that people who gave drugs to kids will get killed without a thought...yeah that's not happening, here comes the guilt!

I get it he just killed a man, but, did you read what that man said?

Anyway that's how the first part of this story ends. 

The story is good. it has things that don't make much sense but i think it's because Zdarsky is a Batman fan and not a Red Hood fan in the sense that he doesnt know much about Jason's character and that this is his first ever DC work.

I cant wait to see where this story goes, while i hope “unresolved daddy issues” doesn't become a theme yet again in a Red Hood story i believe it's where we are headed. I will keep on reading because i am invested in Jason and Tyler's relationship and what is going to happen now that Jason killed Andy.

Let me know what you thought about the issue and my post if you want! Bye!

#jason todd #red hood #red hood outlaw #batman urban legends #robin #batman and robin