what? That description in the post is actually much more on point than yours in the tags! He throws pizza boxes? Who does he call unintelligent? He hides behind his mental illness...?!
Which behaviour did you consider arrogant? He was quite self-doubting, Miles actually gave him a few talks on that!
alright, I said I would answer this yesterday afternoon but the day got ahead of me and my brain was too fatigued to open a laptop so here's hoping you still give a damn enough to read it. First of all, I think it needs to be understood that I never said I necessarily disagreed with the traits presented in the post, nor did I state that the traits I mentioned within the tags were all there was. I did nothing but defend Joe 100% of the time when I first made this character because he is a super, soft, sweet man... but he is also human and that is what makes him compelling. He is not all positive traits (just as he is not all negative) and that is what my tags were trying to point out - instances of opposite behavior. One does not negate the other. I want a character to be complex, especially one that means so much to me. Recognizing flaws and mistakes and what would be considered 'negative' personality traits, does not mean you hate the person/character. On that note, since I do have ten thousand reasons why I love Joe and wish to protect him at all costs throughout various posts on my blog and have been meaning to address some of the things you mention anyways, I'm gonna try to go point by point. Under a cut because its gonna get long, I think.
Also want to note that sometimes, nailing down Joe's characterization is pretty difficult even as a casual observer that doesnt put much thought into it because whitechapel (i love it, i truly do) is very inconsistent with its writing. He has 5 cars in the span of four seasons, for example. The way he reacts to people and stress changes. He is very puppy (my little golden retriever boy) in season 2 and, while he remains the same in some aspects, he is back to being Joe in season 3 and 4.
I touched on everything in this ask (I think. My brain is mush right now) except for the mental illness post because I believe that deserves its own meta so that will be the next thing I go insane over. And again, thanks for sending this! For real. You motivated me to actually sit down and write out the various things in my mind rather than let my blog stay a shrine to all things Joe (stay gold, ponyboy) because it is/was so tempting. As my comfort character, I'm motivated (especially during this time of my life) to really build up how wonderful he is and ignore more negative traits (that again, dont necessarily negate the positive ones. Personality aspects co exist, even when they seem to contradict one another) and that's not the kind of writer I want to be. But, more importantly, that's not a true comfort character. I find strength in the fact that Joe is as fucked up as the rest of us in his own ways. He's struggling. He can be mean. He yells when hes frustrated and he makes snap judgments about others before getting to know them. He's a person. Like me. Like you. Like all of us. THAT is what I find comfort in. I love that he is three dimensional and I get that some people don't like acknowledging things like that, I do... but personally, for me, I don't believe in entirely herowashing or only focusing on the good. I love him because he is as flawed as me but he fights to be anyhow.
What's that stupid quote from the last episode of season 2? I may stumble, but I never fall.
For the pizza box thing - season 4, episode 4. The exchange that leads to it starts at 14:42. I wish I could gif it but alas. I don't have photoshop on this computer and won't have my mac back until next week. Basically, Joe and Miles are looking at the whiteboard while Joe tries to piece together the common factor shared between the cases thus far. He asks a question about a victim and Mansell speaks up and supplies the necessary information. Joe is extremely frustrated and goes on a bit of a tear. It culminates with him picking up the empty pizza box at Mansell's desk and throwing it at him. The whole exchange is as follows:
Joe: What about the first victim, Harry Barnett, did he have a record?
Miles: Well, we've got his prints on file. Something to do with a stolen car.
Mansell: Yeah, it was a hit and run. Barnett was questioned but he reported his car stolen, so the case never came to court. I've got the file here somewhere.
Joe: Why didn't I know about this?
Mansell: Well, I've been concentrating on cracking the code.
Joe: Well, get on to it, will you? It's important! Sort your desk out, it's a disgrace.
Mansell: Yes sir.
Joe: How can you think straight with all this chaos and crap everywhere? A young man's life hangs in the balance and all you can think about is which topping to have on your pizza! We gotta stay focused or otherwise we make mistakes!
And then he throws the pizza box at him. I'm not saying he's a bad person for it, I'm not even saying I wouldn't do the same thing (I absolutely would) but I AM saying that I won't ignore the fact that he does it. Reasons why this was called out by me in the tags to come towards the end when I tie all of this together. For now I just wanted to give the reference of when it happens.
Calling someone unintelligent. Does he say "Gosh (insert name), you are so unintelligent!" No. If he did we wouldnt be having this discussion and I wouldnt be writing the character because I like to have to dig not have things handed to me. There are multiple instances of him questioning someone and commenting things about their thinking that while they do not explicitly say you're an idiot... they do say, what the fuck are you thinking? I will concede that maybe 'unintelligent' was the wrong word to use in my description, but I was eating a chicken tender and typing one handed on my phone. I'm gonna skip to your arrogance thing because a lot of this ties into that so just .. bear with me for a second.
Arrogance. This is gonna be a big one. I'm gonna list some points and then cite the scenes (with timestamps and episodes) that sort of led to me forming this opinion. First, I think it should be acknowledged that arrogance and insecurity/self-doubt can often go hand in hand. In fact, arrogance is often used as a defense mechanism for those with low-self esteem who want to be accepted and given respect and believe they won't be if they aren't perfect.
There is a type of arrogance referred to as Belief Arrogance in some psychiatric journals online through various databases (such good reads always. Highly recommend). This is defined as follows: Belief arrogance comes before a person is truly proved as being right. They may even still believe they are right after they are proven wrong. It is often based either on excessive self - confidence or as a cover up for a lack of self-confidence.
Some general examples of arrogance that bring this to mind (we'll go episode by episode, shall we? and please note my internet is being slow so I'm using the scenes that immediately come to mind so that I can cite without losing my fucking mind. I can go way in depth later if you so wish. ):
Season 1, Episode 1:
We are introduced to Joe in what can be considered a state of arrogance for him. He is part of the metropolitan police social club for the high and mighty (its a thing, i researched it lmao) and as he makes his way to the commander, he is greeted by much older detectives and accompanied by mutterings (of a good kind). "It's joe! look its joe! hi joe!". Very Simba walking up pride rock of him tbh. He was groomed for this job. He is being pushed through the ranks (as my high school principal always said .. its not the grades you make, its the hands you shake) and the confidence and belief in himself that comes from that is part of it. This does not negate the fact that he practices things in front of the mirror etc, but those things also do not erase arrogance. He is bothered when he feels like he is being undermined (again, understandable) and he literally yells and asks if his team has heard of showers and tells them they smell. Thats judgmental, mate. And that comes from a place of arrogance.
Season 2, Episode 1.
This example begins in a diner where Joe is conversing with Ed after the bayonetting at the snooker hall at 25:47. It goes as follows:
Joe: Steven Dukes is part of a notorious crime family. He must have grown up idolizing the Krays and now he's using the legend to build his own empire.
Ed: Does he wear Italian suits, a monogrammed shirt?
Joe: Not when he was standing in a snooker hall, no.
Ed: Ah, but don't you see? If he were the copycat, he would. The copycat went to great trouble to recreate the exact details of Frank Mitchell's death. Lenny Cobb was taken from Dartmoor Prison, just like Mitchell, and his injuries were, tragically, just like Mitchell's. Anyone who cares enough about those details would at the very least wear the suit.
Joe: This is about power and fear, not fancy dress.
Ed: But it's not about a pretense or an act. It's about being a Kray. I don't think it can be Dukes.
Joe: Dukes has motive. He has opportunity, and he inspires enough fear to ensure silence. My instinct tells methat he's the one.
Same episode, 37:50.
Ed: It's not Dukes. It's not about power, or money or empire building. The motive is revenge. The victimes are being chosen from those that gave evidence against the Kray twins and they will be killed in the manner of their testimony.
Joe: So who do you think will be next?
Ed: Slasher Daneford. He testified about the death of Jack 'The Hat' Mcvitie, and he's like Mcvitie in many ways.I tried to warn him, but he's refused to run or seek protection. I am a real detective, in my heart, in my bones, and I do not need a warrant card to prove it!
Joe: Thanks for the tip. We really appreciate it
[as a side note here, please pay attention to the expression his face. It's one of indulgence more than it is an expression of genuine gratefulness)
Ed: Don't just humor me, Joe! You must talk to Slaher. I can't have his death on my conscience.
As another side note in this episode, he judges Mansell the moment he walks through that door and continues to do so until the show ends. He actually makes a face that cracks me the fuck up lmao.
I'm skipping seasons because - again - slow internet and I'm using hulu for now until I get my laptop back but lets go to season 4 shall we. I love season 4. But Lucas, he's under a lot of stress you might say. You might argue 'but season 4 makes the worst of every character come out' .. and you're right! it does! which means these traits exist in Joe all along, they are just brought closer to the surface thanks to the joy that is frustration (which is something that happens to all of us).
Season 4, episode 1.
Timestamp 7:31. His first introduction to Louise Iver. He gets so upset. Why? Because she is pricking at a sore spot, she is prodding at an open wound that is already a detriment to his pride. Conversation is as follows:
Louise: Are you in the book?
Joe: No, I'm not.
Louise: Oh, I understand. [Joe sort of gives her a look here like, you understand what exactly? He's already in defense mode] Did he leave you out to spare your feelings?
Joe: I beg your pardon?
Louise: Never bringing in a killer alive is a terrible legacy.
Joe: I'm not in the book because I'm a serving police officer.
Louise: Oh, well, your memoirs will be a depressing read, won't they?
Timestamp, 40:00. The conversation with Wingfield.
Wingfield: Well, I didn't think I'd walk away.
Joe: You had an alibi. Why were you spying on us?
Wingfield: You have been infiltrated by an agent.
Joe [scoffing]: I don't think we're that interesting.
Wingfield: Any soul is of interest. And you have been chosen.
Joe: By whom?
Wingfield: I first heard of this agent when I was in captivity. It is a provocateur whose purpose is to incite others to commit evil acts.
[Joe literally scoffs again]
Wingfield: Markov. Calvi. The Krays. The Ripper. An immortal entity was behind them all. Planting the seeds, watching the horror grow. The provocateur had Zukanov killed. It was a setup to silence me. Now that has failed and another way will be found.
Joe [scoffing. again]: you're mad.
Wingfield: I wish I were. I wish I was wrong. Good luck.
Alright, let's talk about this. First of all, I would like to mention the definition of a scoff. Scoffing means contemptuously ridiculing or mocking someone or something. This man scoffs SO FUCKING MUCH at people. I cannot believe that someone would argue to blatantly MAKE FUN of someone's belief or opinion is not in itself, a display of arrogance at some level. What would you call that then? I will point out other examples of scoffing that I remember in the other episodes, but if you want episode by episode examples for every single one ... I'd be happy to provide.
Season 4, episode 2
I do also think that during the autopsy review of Dorothy's body, Joe hyper-fixates on the knowledge that the killer has gangrene. How long before he dies? When Llewelyn answers "He could die at anytime." Joe responds with, not if i get there first. It has stopped being about saving future victims and has started to become a race to simply catch a killer alive, saving his own ego. Arrogance, in a form.
Timestamp 25:40, when going through the woman who drowned's belongings (I cannot remember her name, rip lady I apologize).
Joe: It doesn't look like she had many friends, just work colleagues. It's quite sad, really.
Hell-to the fucking - o ??? Pot calling kettle black. Also it makes me sad and emo because its like .. hes also passing judgment on himself whether or not he realizes it and i want to hug him and call him my precious but this write up isnt about that so .. moving on.
Also, lets jump back to the temper I mentioned that is evidence by the pizza throwing incident .. in this episode (timestamp 30:30) during the fight with Mansell and Kent, Joe doesn't just stop the fight .. he throws Mansell against a table. Pushes with extreme force? Idk what you want to call it. He did NOT have to act that way. It is a combination of temper and, as I pointed out earlier, the fact that he has judged Mansell and considered him lacking/unprofessional/unworthy since day one.
The scene where Joe and Miles share a drink at the end of the episode and are later joined by ed. Timestamp is 40:40
Joe: Septicemia. Once the infection took hold, there was nothing the doctors could do.
Miles: I'm sorry.
Joe: Another killer escapes justice.
Miles: I think you're being too hard on yourself. You saved Nick's life.
Joe: You know, if you'd told me five hundred years ago that I was cursed, I would have believed you.
Miles: Here. [pours another drink] Here's to bringing on in alive.
[skip ahead to Ed appearing at 42:40 after making a connection in Wingfield's notes down in the archive]
Miles: How can you hear a bottle open all the way down in the archive?
Joe [laughing]: Come in.
Ed: I'm so sorry to intrude, but I have a matter of some urgency to share with you.
Joe: Have a drink.
Ed: Oh...yes. After you hear this, we'll all need one. Um... As you know, Wingfield was trying to catch a provocateur.
Joe [amused]: The instigator of all evil in Whitechapel.
Ed: This is a visual record of all Wingfield's points of surveillance.
Miles: It's a madman's map.
Ed: Yes, so it would seem. This is us. Here.
Joe: Well we know he was watching us from the hotel across the road.
Ed: Did you know he was also watching John Washington's bakery? Fascinating, isn't it? Washington thought his life had been blighted by a witch. Wingfield was following an ancient evil that visited the bakery.
Miles: They were after the same person.
Ed: Wingfield seemed to think so. And he followed them to this building.
[Joe's expression after this line when the camera cuts to him is literally like are yall fucking kidding me right now lmao?]
Miles: Are you saying there's a demon in this station?
Joe: Right. That's enough for one night.
Miles: And you criticize me for not being open-minded.
Joe: I'm sure there's a rational explanation for all the connections, we just need to find it.
Miles: I hope we do
Again, his confidence in being RIGHT in his opinions and so easily dismissing those that he considers absolutely insane is illustrated so heavily in here. A pattern that repeats stronger and stronger until he signs his own demise in the final episode. Continuing on, however...
Season 4 episode 3
The fucking birthday scene. This is so hard to watch, jesus take the wheel from me. Granted, I fully believe they did not plan this little birthday get together well considering location and activity and obviously Joe is a little out of his depth and frustrated/annoyed by it. But this scene is saturated with arrogance.
At 00:58, we see Ed giving Joe a birthday present. Joe looks so excited at the prospect. He's smiling, he's there for it mate. Look at his fucking face when he opens it. I have seen my nephew be more gracious than that when he was given socks on his 6th birthday. Anyways, short recap:
Ed: Happy birthday, Joe. It's not much, but ... it's a hagstone. It's said to protect the wearer against witchcraft and evil charms. Thought it mgiht bring a smile to your face. Obviously not.
It is SO HARD for me to watch this because Joe is absolutely acting like a spoiled little bitch. He makes a face so obvious that Ed picks up on it and he apologizes and looks both embarrassed and crestfallen. It's awful. Again, that's arrogance. Sorry, anon.
Timestamp 5:38, in the museum when they are discussing the skinned face. He is rude as fuck.
Joe: Get it checked for prints. [walks off]
Llewelyn: Well someone's forgotten their pleases and thank yous.
Timestamp 7:24, Joe visits Ed in the archives looking for historical precedents to murders involving flaying. Ed gets a bit excited sharing a particular story and Joe brusquely interrupts him with a very irritated How does this help us? Ed, I just need the information, not the conjecture. Actual conversation below, because there are quite a few other rude interactions in this scene.
Joe: What've you got for me?
Ed: I was just looking at this. The Flaying of Marsyas by Titian. Marsyas was a satyr, half man, half goat. He was skinned alive for daring to challenge Apollo to a musical duel. It was on loan at the National Gallery a few years ago but Mother wasn't keen.
Joe: How does this help us?
Ed: Well, your body was found in an art gallery, was it not? The killer could be recreating scenes from all the Grand Masters.
Joe: Ed, I just need the information, not the conjecture.
Ed: Of course. Well, historically flaying was a means of punishment or torture. A number of Chinese emperors of the Ming Dynasty liked to cut the flesh from their enemies' faces. In fact, Lingchi, the so called death of a thousand cuts, wasn't abolished in China as a form of execution until 1905.
Joe: What did they do with the skin?
Ed: It depends. The ancient Assyrians would flay their enemies alive and then nail the skin to the city walls. A warning to others not to step out of line. Oh, look, the molds got in here. Now, this is ridiculous.
Joe: Have you got anything I can take away with me? Anything I can study?
Ed: We're talking ancient history here, Joe. I'm not going to find it in the Metropolitan Police Archive.
Joe: Well, I can't go back upstairs with paintings by Titian and stories from Ancient Assyria. That's not what I pay you for.
Timestamp 10:10, Joe makes the assumption that HE is better suited for interviewing what they believe is Sebastian Marlowe's assistance. He tells Miles he needs the interview to go well and doesnt want any belligerence, hinting that he believes Miles would only get in the way. This comes to bite him in the ass when he later finds out that Miles has connections in the art world and would have been able to find out much more than he did. That's a judgment. Again, arrogance.
During the actual interview scene with her, the following exchange happens and I laugh every time.
Joe: Some people wouldn't call it art.
Assistant: Some people only look skin deep.
This makes me laugh because of the skin deep pun but also because Joe is clearly meant to be included in the some people. She picks up on the arrogance too. Also he stares at her birthmark and that gets me everytime also. Not in a funny way but a .. bro are you serious way.
Season 4 episode 4
There's the pizza scene mentioned above, obviously. But before that, there is the scene where Miles and Joe are leaving the dentist office. The important bit begins at timestamp 13:00.
Joe: In a missing persons case, the first twenty four hours are the only twenty four hours.
Miles: What? You think I don't know that? ... You want me to call in Whacky Jackie?
Joe: Who?
Miles: Jackie Brierley. She's a last resort.
Joe: Who's Jackie Brierley?
Miles: She helped us out on a missing child case back in the nineties. She said she saw a vision of running water, led us down to the Lee Valley Resevoir and the divers found the body in ten minutes.
Joe: She's a medium?
Miles: Yeah. We used her once or twice back in the day. She's not always right, but when you've got no leads ... What are you looking at me like that for?
Joe: Well, I can't believe you'd be so gullible.
Miles: Well, I've learned to keep an open mind.
Joe: A medium??Miles: Well, she found the girl.
Joe: So? It was a lucky guess.
Miles: Well, we could do with a bit of luck right now. Do you want me to call her or not?
Joe: No!! We're detectives. We use police work. Anything else would just be weakness of character.
In case you're wanting to dismiss this whole thing .. let's re read it and remember that Miles states he and his team HAD USED HER a few times. He, Miles, Joe's colleague and one of the closest things to a friend that he's got, has ADMITTED using this woman .. and Joe ridicules him for it. This is arrogance, but it also ties into my 'unintelligent' comment in the tags. Telling someone theyre gullible is the same as saying they aren't intelligent enough to resist falling for something meant to dupe them. Worse than that though, is that Joe is offhandedly insulting the fuck out of Miles with the weakness of character comment, considering Miles has admitted (ten seconds ago, Joe!! come on!!) that he had done the thing Joe is so adamantly against. That's arrogance, buddy. Miles is actually offended. You can tell by his expression and the way that he mutters to himself. Honestly, I would be too.
The scene with Miles in the bathroom when Joe goes into detail about the death of this father (I'm having to bite my tongue because there are so many GOOD things I want to say about this scene and again I want to hug him) also alludes to arrogance in order to cover self-consciousness. Joe states that as a child, he was embarrassed by his mother's actions and started taking an extreme interest in details because he didn't want others to see how much their lives had fallen apart. This is pride. At ten years old, he had wounded pride.
Okay, this is a big one. It might seem like a stretch. Just bear with me. Timestamp, 43:43. It's the scene in the station chapel towards the end of the episode, involving the conversation between Miles and Joe.
Miles: I was just looking up that Vengeance is mine quote. If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thristy, give him a drink. For in so doing, you will heap coals of fire upon his head. Do not be overcome by evil. But overcome evil with good.Joe: If only it was that easy. Do you believe in all of that?
Miles: What?
Joe: The ... Afterlife.
Miles: Well, I was brought up Catholic, I have to hedge my bets.
Joe: Is that why you consulted a psychic?
Miles: No, the family asked for her. What's all this about? We caught the guy, the case is closed.
Joe: No. we didn't catch him. He chose to die. He taunted me.
Alright so. Were do I begin with this one. First of all, the verse that Miles reads aloud would actually be a fantastic answer to most of Joe's issues during this season (and throughout the show), if only he would give it the time of day. But he doesn't. In fact, though he does listen while Miles read it aloud, he also makes his usual expressions and immediately dismisses it by asking Miles if he believes in such a thing. We already know he (Joe) doesn't. His pride has been pricked. I've already mentioned the illustrations given throughout other episodes, but it is growing more and more apparent. This verse is TELLING HIM he should do the opposite. Rather than being overcome by evil (aka, being driven to the more baser parts of his personality, the more negative traits) he should be approaching the situation with mercy and grace towards himself. Instead, he is angry. He is frustrated. He is upset by the fact that he feels (rightly so) taunted. Imagine you're 6'8. Weird, I know. But hang on. So you're 6'8 and you're in a cafe somewhere, waiting on a coffee. A person walks in and says 'wow, you're so short." You would go about your day (most would at least, I think) because you know they're wrong. They are not attacking an insecurity. Youre not arrogant, youre just confident in the fact that you're fucking 6'8 and that isnt short. However, when attacked or wronged in some way in regards to something that does bother us (something we are already insecure about perhaps), arrogance does come into play when we get offended. How dare they say that! How dare they think it! You're furious! Joe is reacting the same way. His ego is being attacked.
Season 4, Episodes 5 and 6.
I'm actually wrapping this up really quick because I could go on for fucking AGES about these two episodes and I probably will one day, but the last 3 hours of putting this together is starting to get to me and todays another not feeling so great today. Joe's arrogance comes home to roost in these episodes. He is so ashamed of meeting with Jackie, he double and triple checks that they are doing so in secret. He makes it VERY CLEAR during their conversation that he thinks shes a fucking hoax. He refuses to read the letter given to him through Miles that supposedly contains a message from his father. What would it have cost him to open the letter? It doesnt mean anything to open something. But to Joe it did. To Joe, opening that letter, would be like saying there might be some shred of truth to what Jackie says and what she is and his ARROGANCE does not allow for that. He was too arrogant in his belief of being correct to take ten seconds to do something that would have changed the whole plot of the show. Whitechapel is about sin coming home to roost. Arrogance/Pride in the case of Joe is a great example of that. If you're a true fan, I honestly believe you know this and understand the implications.
Don't put them all in the same van.
HE fucked himself over. His inability to be open minded because he was to arrogant to admit that there might be a slight, SLIGHT chance or at least a small miniscule worth in opening a letter and reading a note that would be absolutely harmless at its worst .. dug his own grave. And that's really what it comes down to.
4 notes
·
View notes