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david-talks-sw · 8 months

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Debunking more myths in the GFFA: the Jedi and the clones.

I wrote a post debunking the various myths about how "the Jedi condone slavery", a while ago. Something I had omitted (because it's such a big topic) was the following two statements that concern the clone troopers' relations with the Jedi:

"The clones were genetically bred to have accelerated growth, so they're technically child soldiers."

"The clones were slaves of the Jedi."

Both the above statements are inaccurate, let's explore why.

"The clones were child soldiers"

Let's get the easy one out of the way first, because it's a logic that cuts both ways. If age is our only determination of the maturity of a Star Wars character, then Grogu is not a baby. He is aged 50, and is thus a middle-aged man.

Who cruelly eats the babies of a woman...

... and knowingly tortures animals for his own sadistic pleasure.

Of course, I'm kidding. Grogu's none of the above things.

The narrative frames him as a cute baby who does innocent baby stuff. Him eating the eggs is played off as comedic, as is him lifting with the frog. To this day, some fans still call him "Baby Yoda".

Conversely, despite the clones being 10/14-years-old, their actions, behaviors, way of thinking, sense of humor, morals etc, are all those of an adult.

Like, Ahsoka is technically older than Rex in this scene.

The scene doesn't portray them as peers, though. This isn't written as "a teen and a tween talking". No, Rex looks, acts and behaves like a grown-up and is thus framed as such by the narrative.

You can make the argument "they're child soldiers", but (unless you're doing so in bad faith) you'd also have to argue that "Grogu's an adult".

"The clones were the Jedi's slaves"

Nope. For all intents and purposes, they're in the same boat as the Jedi, who George Lucas stated multiple times had been drafted to fight in the war.

Again: both the Jedi (monk/diplomats untrained for fighting on a battlefield) and clones (literally bred en masse only to fight) are being forced to fight by Palpatine and the Senate.

Though, on paper, the clones were commissioned by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, it was actually done by the Sith (who either manipulated or assassinated Sifo-Dyas then stole his identity, depending on the continuity you choose to adhere to). The rest of the Jedi had no idea these clones were being created.

So while the clones are slaves... they're not owned by the Jedi.

They're the army of the Republic, they belong to the Senate. This isn't exactly a scoop, they refer to the clones as something to purchase...

... and manufacture.

As far as the Senate’s concerned, clones are property, like droids.

Like there's a whole subplot in The Bad Batch about this very point: after the war, the clones are decommissioned and left out to dry because they literally have no rights, they served their purpose.

The only trooper to ever canonically blame the Jedi for the clones' enslavement is Slick, who the narrative frames as having been bribed and manipulated by Asajj Ventress into betraying his comrades.

Also, the only canonical Jedi shown to ever be mean, dismissive or mistreating the clones in any way, is Pong Krell.

And it's eventually revealed he’s in fact a full-on traitor, hence why the story frames him as an antagonistic dick from the moment he's introduced. He doesn’t represent the Jedi in any way.

We know this because the other Jedi we’ve been shown are always prioritizing their clones’ lives over theirs, if given the chance.

Finally, if we wanna get even more specific... as Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), the clones belong to Palpatine.

Palpatine who is a Sith Lord.

Palpatine who arranged for the creation of the clones and had them all injected with a chip that would activate upon hearing a code-word...

... and forced them to murder their Jedi without hesitation or remorse.

When you bear all that ⬆️ in mind and when you read this quote by George Lucas...

"The Jedi won't lead droids. Their whole basis is connecting with the life force. They'd just say, 'That's not the way we operate. We don't function with non-life-forms.” So if there is to be a Republic army, it would have to be an army of humans." - The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020

... narratively-speaking, everything falls into place.

Sidious knows that:

If he orchestrates a war designed to thin the Jedi's numbers, corrupt their values and plunge the galaxy into chaos...

If he wants to draft the Jedi - peace-keeping diplomats who’d never willingly join the fray - to fight in his war...

... then the only way they won't resist the draft and abstain from fighting is if they think joining the conflict will save lives.

So he creates a set of cruel, sadistic villains for them to face, opponents who will target innocent civilians at every turn...

... and instead of lifeless droids, he prepares for the Jedi an army of men... living, mortal people who, despite being well-trained, will be completely out of their league when facing the likes of Dooku...

... Ventress...

... Grievous...

... Savage Opress...

... or the defoliator, a tank that annihilates organic matter.

Thus, in order to save as many clone and civilian lives, the Jedi join the fray despite knowing that doing so will corrupt their values.

And as the war rages on, a bond of respect is formed between the two groups.

Clearly, the Jedi don't like the fact that the Republic is using the clones to fight a war, but for that matter, they don't like being in a war, in fact they advocated against it.

However, it's happening regardless of their issues with the idea or personal philosophies. Said The Clone Wars writer Henry Gilroy:

"I’d rather not get into the Jedi’s philosophical issues about an army of living beings created to fight, but the Jedi are in a tough spot themselves, being peacekeepers turned warriors trying to save the Republic."

And bear in mind, the Jedi are basically space psychics, the clones are living beings that they can individually feel in the Force...

... so the Jedi feel every death but need to move on, regardless, only being able to mourn the troopers at the end of every battle.

We see this in the Legends continuity too, by the way.

(that is, when the writers actually try to engage with the narrative)

Also, if you ask the clones, they’re grateful the Jedi have their backs.

When Depa Billaba voices her concerns about how the war is impacting the Jedi's principles, troopers Grey and Styles are quick to make it clear how grateful they all are for the Jedi's involvement:

So the clones aren't the Jedi's slaves. If anything, they're both slaves of the Republic (considering how low the Jedi's status actually is in the hierarchy).

Only I'd argue the clones have it much, much worse.

The Senate sees the Jedi as "ugh, the holier-than-thou space-monk lapdogs who work for us"... but a Jedi has the option to give up that responsibility. They can leave the Order, no fuss or stigma.

A clone trooper cannot leave the GAR! If they do, they’re marked for treason and execution. Again, they’re not perceived as “people”.

And it doesn’t help that the Kaminoans, the clones’ very creators, see the troopers as products/units/merchandise. A notion that the Jedi are quick to correct whenever they get the chance.

How The Clone Wars writers describe the clones' relationship with the Jedi.

George Lucas hasn’t spoken much about this subject aside from the quote from further up. But to be fair... the Prequels aren’t about the clones’ dynamic with the Jedi, so it makes sense that he wouldn’t talk on that subject so much.

He did mention that part of The Clone Wars’ perks is that he could:

“Do stories about some of the individual clones and get to know them.”

But that’s as far as it gets.

So for this part, I'm just gonna let Dave Filoni, showrunner of The Clone Wars and the upcoming series Ahsoka, and TCW writer Henry Gilroy - both of whom worked closely with Lucas - take the wheel. They make themselves pretty clear on how the clone/Jedi dynamic is meant to be viewed.

Here’s Henry Gilroy:

"In my mind, the Jedi see the clones as individuals, living beings that have the same right to life as any other being, but understand that they have a job to do."

"The clones see the Jedi as their commanding officers on one hand, but also, at least subconsciously, they look to them for clues to social/moral behavior."

"Some clones may find themselves getting philosophical leadership from the Jedi that helps them answer some of the deeper questions of life."

"We thought this was a great opportunity to show how the Jedi interact with clones. Specifically, Yoda in a teaching role of the clones, who were socially new, who kind of grew up— who were created to fight, and he really broadened their horizons and helped them realize there was a great big universe out there that was bigger than just fighting and killing."

And here’s Dave Filoni’s comments:

"I truly believe that the Jedi try to humanize their clones and make them more individual, as Henry says."

"I think we saw that in Revenge of the Sith, when the Clones were colorful and named under the Jedi Generals, and then in the final shots of the film with Palpatine and Vader near the new Death Star, the ships are grey, the color and life is sucked out. The Stormtroopers are only numbers and identified by black and white armor or uniforms in A New Hope."

"The soldiers have become disposable to the Emperor."

"That is something the Jedi would never do."

"Yoda teaching the clones much like he taught Luke. ‘Cause that was kind of natural for [the Jedi], a natural instinct to take to these clones like they’re students."

None of the above quotes from two different writers of The Clone Wars, who had many interactions with George Lucas, frame the Jedi and the clones’ relationship in a negative way.

How much more proof do we need that "the clones were slaves of the Jedi” isn’t the intended narrative?

My point being that while the clones' ordeal is indeed horrible, the Jedi have nothing to do with it. The narrative of The Clone Wars always frames it as the fault of the Sith, the Senate and the Kaminoans.

If you go by the intended narrative, the Jedi were the clones' teachers and brothers-in-arms. The clones and the Jedi were not just comrades.

They were friends.

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fantastic-nonsense · 1 year

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the deliberate erasure of Padme Amidala and Satine Kryze from every piece of Star Wars media where it would be narratively and thematically relevant to mention them is absolutely insane

because how did we get to a place where we can have two separate shows that collectively co-star three of Padme's best friends and her child and only get one (1) oblique mention? How did we get two whole shows focused on Mandalorians and post-Imperial Mandalore, one of which co-stars Satine's sister, and not mention the Last Free Ruler of Mandalore? How did we get a show focused on Obi-Wan Kenobi and not mention one of his best friends or the love of his life? How did we get a show focused entirely on politics and spying and the true birth of the Rebellion and not mention the fact that Padme helped build that? How did we visit Sundari and not mention Satine? How did we get an episode where Ahsoka literally attends Padme's funeral and never once says her name?

The fact that Satine is essentially confined to The Clone Wars despite her sister being the current co-protagonist of Disney's flagship Star Wars show while Padme has been basically erased from every single piece of Star Wars media that isn't the Darth Vader comics is baffling. It would be like Leia being completely non-existent and never mentioned in the sequel trilogy despite it co-starring her son, brother, and husband. It makes no sense, it's clearly deliberate, and it's extremely irritating.

#star wars #sw fanwank #sw meta #padme amidala #bo-katan kryze #satine kryze #ahsoka tano #obi-wan kenobi #bail organa #mon mothma #andor #kenobi 2022 #tales of the jedi #the mandalorian

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intermundia · 3 months

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i think one of the most infuriating things about using the Force would be the fact that in order to reach out, you have to instead open yourself up and let it in. you must make yourself passive, in order to be active, you know? to see what is really out there, you have to allow yourself to look, which means pausing and offering up your attention non-judgmentally in order to take in the world before you act upon that information. you have to get yourself out of the way, because when your thoughts and anxieties are in the way, you cannot see past them. they are a shield blocking you from seeing the moment, and a filter that leads to motivated reasoning, seeing what you want to see instead of what is really there.

so in a high stress environment, when there is much on the line (fear) or innocents are being harmed (anger), the ability to actually take a second and put aside those feelings in order to understand the situation better and actually be able to fix things is no mean feat. you have to be able to simultaneously detach so that you can focus and act in the best interest of everyone with full awareness of the risks and benefits, while remaining deeply engaged and compassionate for everyone involved. it's not easy, it's not about ego and glory and pleasure, it's about loving the world enough to be an agent of peace no matter the cost. that kind of altruistic discipline would take a lifetime of study, and i think is so deeply admirable as a concept.

#i love the jedi man im in my feelings again about this ideal of service and harmony #it's beautiful and difficult and not for everyone #but such incredible things are possible with the force #jedi order #sw #sw meta

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ahsokasupremacy · 8 months

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There’s something so heartbreaking about a forty-something year old Ahsoka, who is now a jaded and traumatized war-torn survivor of a genocide, who has refused multiple opportunities to take on a Padawan (something that she probably looked forward to when she was younger), who lives a hermit-like life in her own ship with nobody except a droid for company when she used to live in a Tenple full of Masters and Younglings, who has left behind the only set of people that she became close to after the War, who seldom smiles despite the fact that she used to laugh and crack jokes all the time, who is still being held back by her fear of commitment and the impossible burden of responsibility and her unresolved feelings regarding her old Master…

And then seeing her face light up with a childish joy when she hears what sounds like Anakin’s voice behind her. Because all of a sudden, Master is here. Her big brother is back. Everything’s going to be okay again, isn’t it?

Isn’t it?

#ahsoka #ahsoka spoilers #ahsoka show #ahsoka series #ahsoka tano #anakin skywalker #sw meta #my post

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charmwasjess · 2 months

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Jedi form lightsaber salutes are so fucking dope: every time Obi-Wan does that Soresu two fingered thing perpendicular blade move it looks so cool that I want to scream. You can totally understand why Dooku was still doing that up-then-swoosh Makashi salute even though Sidious must have internally died every time he watched his cringefail “Sith” apprentice show off in specifically Jedi fashion.

#sw meta #obi wan kenobi #count dooku #soresu #makashi #lightsaber forms

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leiadyke · 7 months

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Hmmm okay but leia keeping the fact that shes still alive after ANH a secret for as long as possible to use as an advantage for the rebellion but not considering the consequences of being an alive Dead Girl... the idea that she becomes saint like in nature to alderaan survivors who pray to her for saftey from the empire. the idea of imperials who she kills dying while thinking they're being killed by the ghost of alderaan itself manifested as it's angry young princess, back from the dead to execute them for their sins. Leia Organa, Patron Saint of Righteous Vengence .

#leia organa #star wars #sw meta #2sday.txt

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bbygirl-obi · 5 months

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Anakin: *teaches Ahsoka to act on impulse, to be independent to the point of acting without waiting or accepting help from others, and to ignore the council when he thinks it's best, and also models all of those things for her*

Ahsoka during the Wrong Jedi Arc: *digs herself into a deep ass hole and blows up her entire life by acting on impulse, being independent to the point of acting without waiting or accepting help from others, and ignoring the council*

Anakin:

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passionesolja · 9 months

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I feel like Star Wars missed the opportunity to make Darth Maul and Count Dooku beef. Like all there’s this conversation about Maul and Kenobi’s relationship but imagine being Count Dooku and you gotta live with the fact that the mf who killed your Padawan (one of the events that ended up making you align yourself with the Sith) is alive and living his best life. I would be so pissed. Sidious had to tell Count Dooku not to fuck with Maul bc I refuse that Dooku had no want to slide for Qui Gon Jinn

#star wars #sw #sw prequels #sw sequels #original trilogy #sw hc #sw headcanons #sw memes #sith order #sith #count dracula #darth tyranus #Darth maul #obi wan kenobi #maul opress #sheev palpatine #darth sidious #sw meta

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reactorshaft · 9 months

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Padme, the child queen, who wears her stoic face of diplomacy under a ten pound wig and headpiece, who poses pillar-straight under even heavier 50 pound elaborate gowns, who pleads to the Galactic Senate to help her planet. Her planet was blockaded, her cities invaded, her people captured and detained in camps. The queen Padme, whose pleas were democratically ignored due to the greed of corrupt senators allied with the Trade Federation that sought to seize her planet. Padme, the young queen, with her back straight and her face calm and unlined, had to bear their dismissal. Padme, who assisted in the defense of her planet with two Jedi and a boy they pulled from slavery. A boy who called her an angel and did not hesitate to risk his life to help save hers when thousands of galactic representatives so recently declared the lives of her and her planet not worth the risk or effort.

And years later when this boy cries over his mother, only just dead, and admits to slaughtering those who captured and imprisoned her, Padme thinks, “This is a man who will do anything for me, will slay my enemies, will be the anger I should not feel. He is worth the risk and effort.”

#reactorshaft babble #padme amidala #anakin skywalker #anidala #sw meta

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avisisisis · 1 month

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"You think you can take whatever you want. Things you didn’t make, didn’t earn, things you don’t understand." The story of an indigenous boy fighting against a colonizer to get his home back. A teenager telling the man who is destroying his world that because it is so much more complex and important than what he sees, he will never get to have it.

Ezra's story is about connection, with all living beings: loth cats and wolves, purrgils, people, etc. And it ends with nature reclaiming what has always been its from the machine that is the Empire. It ends with the people getting their home back from the people who occupied it

And here's the thing: Ezra doesn't know a galaxy without the influence of the Empire. The history of the Old Republic, the tales of the Jedi, they're all fairytales to him. Yet he still fights for it; he fights for something he hasn't yet seen, fights for what's right, for his people and his family. He fights for freedom even if he doesn't know what it feels like

And it's this determination, this endless hope, that drives others to do the same as him. He, with only his words, is able to make things different. It challenges the whole "I'm just one person, I won't change anything" belief. Because Ezra is just one person, and one person can't do much on their own; the war is lost if it's only you fighting it

But Ezra frees Lothal. Ezra banishes Thrawn. Ezra inspires others to fight back. Ezra's sacrifice was not meaningless, and it will always be remembered. He will always be remembered

#rebels is about so many people going “i'm only one person. but even if i'm just one i can still make a change. i can help”#the rebellion is full of people that believe that even if they're outnumbered they can still spread their message: they can still be free #from the empire and everything it represents #they believe that the fight is not over. that as long as theres hope someone will continue to believe in freedom #and they're right #oh they are so right #“i'm just one person. i can't do anything to help” even one person can make a difference #you can do it. it's not just you; we're all with you #star wars #star wars rebels #swr #sw rebels #sw meta #star wars meta #ezra bridger #lothal #grand admiral thrawn #avis' post

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david-talks-sw · 1 year

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Let's briefly talk about this scene.

It starts with Anakin lamenting how the Clone War corrupted the Jedi and the principles of the Republic.

Now, Padmé thinks she and Anakin are talking about the same thing: this war is corrupting the Jedi and the principles of the Republic and Palpatine doesn't seem to want to put an end to it, instead increasingly amassing power.

She asks Anakin to get Palpatine to cease the fighting and let diplomacy resume. And Anakin. Gets. Triggered.

Why?

Well, firstly... it's because they weren't talking about the same thing.

1. What Anakin really means when talking about "the principles of the Republic".

While Anakin may say that he's concerned for the corruption of the Jedi Code and the principles of the Republic... he isn't really.

Anakin has a track record of saying he supports abstract principles and concepts, then complaining when standing by that hurts him.

Like when he'll preach that wartime forces him to make hard choices, duty over emotion...

... but then gets mad when someone else makes the hard choice in doing their duty, and it hits close to home.

There's this line Matthew Stover wrote in the ROTS novelization, which I think is very relevant:

“I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him.”

Anakin isn't about abstractions like "peace", "duty" or "democracy". He'll say he is, because he knows he should be, in theory... but, in practice, he's more loyal to people than to principles.

And right now, he's very loyal to Palpatine. Arguably more than anyone else. No matter how blatantly he acts like a dictator, Anakin stays on his side.

So whenever he uses the words "Senate" and "Republic", what he means is "Palpatine". To him, they're one and the same.

He loves Palpatine very much but the two other people he loves, Padmé and Obi-Wan, are both telling him Palpatine's bad news.

Which brings us to the second reason he gets triggered...

2. He's under an enormous amount of stress.

He's barely had any sleep since his nightmare about Padmé and is now scared at the prospect of losing her like he lost his mother.

He's been on an emotional roller-coaster with the Council, first being put on the Council, but not as a Master, then being given a mission but it's a mission to spy on a mentor and father figure. Now he's not even sure the Jedi trust him and he's not even sure they should, after his outburst.

Also Padmé herself is asking him to tell Palpatine to stop, criticizing the Chancellor just like the Jedi do.

It's understandable that he's on edge. That said... a huge chunk of this stress isn't Padmé or the Council's fault. It has been manufactured by Palpatine.

He appointed Anakin to be his representative on the Council specifically because he knew it would put Anakin under pressure... pressure he can exploit for his own gain.

That's what Palpatine does. He orchestrates pressure then swoops in, in the guise of a savior.

With the Republic, he does this by engineering a war then bringing about order (to the chaos he caused) as an Emperor.

With Anakin, he does this by engineering conflict between him and his family - Padmé, Obi-Wan, the Jedi - then presenting himself before Anakin as the solution to all his problems.

From that point on, he enables the Republic and Anakin to give in to the worse parts of themselves and implode.

The former goes from being a democracy to a dictatorship, the latter goes from being a sweet kid to a bad man.

#And if we wanna get technical he does this with Naboo as well #first he sicks the Trade Federation on the planet #then he uses the opportunity to become Chancellor and bravely “stand up for the little guy and punish the evil Viceroy of a corporation!”#Anakin Skywalker #Sheev Palpatine #Darth Sidious #Star Wars #Revenge of the Sith #meta #sw meta #padmé amidala

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gizkalord · 8 months

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I've noticed newer media about tcw era anakin and ahsoka is generally more angsty and has touched more upon anakin's tough love teaching style (aka tales of the jedi ep), and this episode in particular portrays... idk, a degree of emotional unavailability on anakin's end? which is kind of fascinating because it's somewhat incongruent with their actual tcw portrayal which tended to put a lighthearted spin on things—i think it's partly because newer content is made knowing that the main fanbase has aged up, partly because the deep ins and outs of their dynamic was never the main focus, and partly because filoni's own opinions have developed over the years.

at the same time, this is also something that i've kind of suspected for a while?? anakin's whole deal is chronically bottling up his extremely strong internal emotions, so i don't think it's unrealistic that he seems distant/closed off and then sublimates those feelings into extremely overprotective actions and harsh training. which then also doubly explains why ahsoka was always so frustrated by that in earlier tcw arcs, because from her perspective, it's like he's wanting her to be super independent but then is also simultaneously overbearing.

i've always felt they've never had a "talking" kind of relationship (see: old friends not forgotten), and all of this fits with that idea. that being said, both the totj ep and the ryloth vision are set earlier in their relationship, which tracks with how i believe things improved with time as they got to know each other better, with ahsoka in particular getting a better grasp on the more unsaid things between them.

anyways, it's all very interesting and i'm glad their relationship is being shown as complex and messy, because it was!! they both cared SO deeply about each other, but their respective inability to properly communicate and open up when it mattered doomed them, especially in the setting of such a high stress/trauma situation.

#i told you all the meta was coming #*snips and skyguy #ahsoka tano #anakin skywalker #ahsoka spoilers #ahsoka show #tcw #star wars #sw meta #WOW i have not used my meta tag in a while

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jebiknights · 4 months

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Sometimes I just remember that oh right it's apparently a slightly controversial opinion that I think if Palpatine hadn't been involved at all that Anakin could've been perfectly happy and fulfilled with the Jedi.

Like just from rots we see Anakin want to follow Jedi ideals, to seek advice and even help from the very Jedi that fandom loves to act like he hates and who hate him in return, and we see the Jedi around him actually have a lot of respect for him! But every time he makes progress Palpatine is whispering in his ear and pulling out the stitches and re-opening the wounds, making it near impossible for him to actually grow as a Jedi and instead he grows closer to Falling. Not to mention the war, which was orchestrated in part to actively challenge the Jedi's morals and make them make bad and questionable choices.

Plenty of Legends canon and even current canon in things like the marvel comics show Anakin actively wrestling and considering Jedi philosophy, the pros and cons, and working through all his trauma and trying to figure out what's right for him and what the Jedi code actually means. People act like he only ever does lightsaber training and that he never picked up a book in his entire padawanship (which not only is just not how the Jedi Order works from what we see but honestly is just a boring take on the character imo).

Like, I just don't think that Anakin is actually incompatible with the Jedi Order! I think he could've thrived there if he wasn't being actively sabotaged and also had more time.

#anakin skywalker #jedi positive #pro jedi #anyway i also dont think that the jedi order is incompatible with romance just that anakin has trauma about #his interpersonal attachments and that he didnt get a great teaching on it in canon bc obi wan needs therapy #nd so never really discussed it with anakin #which is not necessarily a shot at obi wan i just think that entire lineage has communication issues lmao #like obi wan has both trauma and oin legends actual healthy relationships and exes he no longer dates #who were jedi!#but like he doesnt actually discuss this with anakin?#and tbh thats the most canon to me lmao obi wan just doesnt realize he needs to talk about it or maybe how?#anakin #sw meta #sorta lmao #jedi order

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