#supposedly help women by reinforcing in them the idea that being a woman just fucking sucks that there is no escape from utter suffering

[idiosyncraticrednebula]

When people take the accountability away from women and decide to place the blame on men like nearly most of the Modern Western Feminists™ for literally ALL of their problems, then they aren’t empowering women; what they are doing is basically relegate women to a victimhood, helpless position and make men have power over them by not holding women accountable for a damn thing. Ironic, isn’t it? 🤔  

#anti sexism #anti misogyny #anti misandry #text #like do these so-called feminists not realize wtf they are doing? #also they have devalued everything female-related and feminine so women wouldn't be valued unless they do something #'masculine' or 'male-centric' like....the amount of sexism in that logic is off the charts but it's perpetuated by people who want to #supposedly help women by reinforcing in them the idea that being a woman just fucking sucks that there is no escape from utter suffering #abuse trauma and silence and that their lives would be far better if they were just men #this is the shit women have been fed for years now #i'm fucking pissed #in their quest to 'help' women they end up fucking them over more than the 'patriarchal' system #when you relegate women to being nothing more than victims of grr Evil Men >:( then what the fuck you bitches are doing? #you are taking the power away from them and give it to men which is what the fuck a lot of y'all say you OPPOSE #like....the cognitive dissonance and contradictions are incredible #god the more i read about their ideology the more i realize how fucking full of shit western feminism really is #western feminists don't even help women they just use us for ideology and attacking Evool Mens >>:((( #fuck them this is why i don't fuck the modern feminist movement it's full of a lot of bs and rampant misogyny aside from misandry #when you really analyze a lot of the viewponts they hold of womanhood and femininity #which they think is inherently patriarchal traumatizing and evil like wow ok misogynist #i don't fuck with sexists that's why i don't fuck with a lot of this so-called female empowerment movement when it tells women #they need to stfu and learn their place IF they dare to have a different opinion and just accept the fact that they are women and that's a #very horrible thing because of all the shitty things that come with it #what a great way to empower women... #🙄🙄🙄🙄

[grindskull]

Shit that fucks me up #1 - Toxic Masculinity and being a “man”

Gotta have some way to organize my random thoughts here. I’m going with the obvious thing - Shit that fucks me up (STFMU). This is about me and my experiences. It is not my intention to discredit or question other human experiences. Sharing in the hopes of connecting with others who may have feel similar in their own skin. There are things here that others may define as triggers so read at your own risk (rape, abuse, and this fucking world). ---

Here is me being vulnerable.  I am putting myself out there by discussing masculinity and how I often do not identify with the larger concept of “being a man” in any positive way. You can call it toxic masculinity if you prefer. It’s acceptable shorthand for something that is just as nuanced and difficult to wade through as anything gender related.  I read this article on The Atlantic yesterday and there were some things that really resonated with me and my experience as a man/male (he/his/him). You can read it here (sorry there is a pay wall if you read more than 4 articles a month) but I will also be quoting some of the article below.  If you have time to read the article I’ll wait. It’s a bit long (many articles on The Atlantic are) and kind of academic at times. It’s okay if you don’t agree with everything in the article. Just read it.  Done? Okay let me set the stage a bit for how this shit fucks me up. ---

I’m male. I have always identified as a male/boy/man in my life. Unfortunately my experience with other males/boys/men has been mostly negative. It started at an early age when I had a hard time connecting with other boys my age. I was not interested in typical “male” interests like sports, violence, competition, and achievement. I had few (usually 1 or 2) friends at any one time and they typically had some kind of unhealthy power dynamic over me where I was subservient to my “friend” in some way.  I have some thoughts on reasons why this happened. The short version is I lived in poverty (often extreme) and I was searching for help and support in order to survive. At home I had abuse (mental, physical, verbal), drugs, addiction, and neglect. It was not a safe place to be so I did whatever I could to not be there. It was not unusual for me to eat maybe one meal during the day (typically what I could get from others at school or their home). Winter was the worst as we often did not have heat. Some of my “friends” used this as a way to hold power over me and make demands of my personality, time, and attention. Imagine finding yourself in this situation - you have to actively work to not be yourself in order to appease others for your very survival. Of course as a youth I didn’t identify it this way - my “friends” were just bossy or demanding. All of my male role models were basically assholes who did not give a fuck about anyone except themselves. This was a huge part of the 80′s zeitgeist in popular culture at the time as well. In some ways nothing has really changed. “... when asked to describe the attributes of “the ideal guy,” those same boys appeared to be harking back to 1955. Dominance. Aggression. Rugged good looks (with an emphasis on height). Sexual prowess. Stoicism. Athleticism. Wealth (at least some day).“ Under this common definition of “masculinity” I do not see myself. I am loyal, honest, caring, and sweet (to those I love). I love my body though I am non-athletic and have been most of my life. I am an attentive and talented lover but I have had very few sexual partners in my life and never saw them as moments of “conquest”. I was dirt poor most of my life but now live comfortably in my own home with my long term partner. So while not “wealthy” it is far beyond anything I could have imagined I would have in my life as a boy. Stoicism I have down. That one was easy. For me it’s just a nice way of saying “I have completely disconnected from my emotions and not having feelings or emotions is the best way to be a man”. I believed that for a very long time - it’s only in the past 2-3 years I have begun the work of breaking that down and reconnecting with my own emotions. It’s all tied up in trauma, depression, and anxiety so it takes a bit of fucking work but it’s very much worth it. If you are a man/male who thinks it is normal to not have emotions (or that emotions make you feminine/weak) please listen to me - THAT IS BULLSHIT. YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO HAVE EMOTIONS.

“... young men described just one narrow route to successful masculinity. One-third said they felt compelled to suppress their feelings, to “suck it up” or “be a man” when they were sad or scared, and more than 40 percent said that when they were angry, society expected them to be combative.“

Emotions are not weakness. You are not weak for having them, feeling them, or connecting with them. There is great strength in connecting with yourself and understanding your emotions. Don’t let anyone tell you different. They are delusional at best and actively trying to harm you at worst.

“While following the conventional script may still bring social and professional rewards to boys and men, research shows that those who rigidly adhere to certain masculine norms are not only more likely to harass and bully others but to themselves be victims of verbal or physical violence. They’re more prone to binge-drinking, risky sexual behavior, and getting in car accidents. They are also less happy than other guys, with higher depression rates and fewer friends in whom they can confide.”

---

How did we get here!? Have men always been this way? What about the good ole masculinity of ye olden times? It was a simple time where men were men right? A man’s man? “According to Andrew Smiler, a psychologist who has studied the history of Western masculinity, the ideal late-19th-century man was compassionate, a caretaker, but such qualities lost favor as paid labor moved from homes to factories during industrialization. In fact, the Boy Scouts, whose creed urges its members to be loyal, friendly, courteous, and kind, was founded in 1910 in part to counter that dehumanizing trend. Smiler attributes further distortions in masculinity to a century-long backlash against women’s rights. During World War I, women proved that they could keep the economy humming on their own, and soon afterward they secured the vote. Instead of embracing gender equality, he says, the country’s leaders “doubled down” on the inalienable male right to power, emphasizing men’s supposedly more logical and less emotional nature as a prerequisite for leadership.”

Take a minute to read that and really take it in. Like many things in the US (and the world) the effects of industrialization and war shaped our current version of accepted masculinity. More specifically the leaders of this country (and leaders in other countries) used their positions of power to strengthen men and this new masculinity in our institutions. Then we were taught that this was the “right way” to “be a man”. FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

“Today many parents are unsure of how to raise a boy, what sort of masculinity to encourage in their sons. But as I learned from talking with boys themselves, the culture of adolescence, which fuses hyper-rationality with domination, sexual conquest, and a glorification of male violence, fills the void.“

Here we have the core of what I experience as a man when it comes to the current socially accepted version of masculinity and why it fucks me up. I don’t identify with any of this shit! It does not feed me. It does not make me feel fulfilled and happy. It doesn’t make the world better for anyone it simply dehumanizes us all. 

“In a classic study, adults shown a video of an infant startled by a jack-in-the-box were more likely to presume the baby was “angry” if they were first told the child was male. Mothers of young children have repeatedly been found to talk more to their girls and to employ a broader, richer emotional vocabulary with them; with their sons, again, they tend to linger on anger. As for fathers, they speak with less emotional nuance than mothers regardless of their child’s sex. Despite that, according to Judy Y. Chu, a human-biology lecturer at Stanford who conducted a study of boys from pre-K through first grade, little boys have a keen understanding of emotions and a desire for close relationships. But by age 5 or 6, they’ve learned to knock that stuff off, at least in public: to disconnect from feelings of weakness, reject friendships with girls (or take them underground, outside of school), and become more hierarchical in their behavior.“

I’m not going to get into the topic of my own father (that’s another post in this series for sure) too deeply but I will say I completely identify with these ideas. Emotional distance, only expressing anger, telling me having emotions was weak. This was reinforced societal norms throughout my youth through today. Don’t talk about your problems or feelings. Ball them up inside. Wall yourself off from the world. Connections = weakness that others will exploit. You must control every situation and hold power over others. FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

---

So when did I wake up? When did I start to see through this shit in some way? When my younger sister was born. It was really obvious to me that she was treated in a different way and expectations of her as a girl/woman were not the same as the expectations others had for me. Mostly I just saw the negatives in this. It took me time (and lots of communication and experiences with my partner and others) to recognize the root of this was more fucked up socialization. 

“Girlfriends, mothers, and in some cases sisters were the most common confidants of the boys I met. While it’s wonderful to know they have someone to talk to—and I’m sure mothers, in particular, savor the role—teaching boys that women are responsible for emotional labor, for processing men’s emotional lives in ways that would be emasculating for them to do themselves, comes at a price for both sexes. Among other things, that dependence can leave men unable to identify or express their own emotions, and ill-equipped to form caring, lasting adult relationships.”

Read this carefully. Nobody is responsible for your emotional well being but you. If you are a male/man this is especially true - females/women are not responsible for managing your emotions and your reliance on them to take care of this is a form of abuse. They are not responsible for your emotions. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN EMOTIONS.

It can be really hard to see this. It was a blind spot for me for way too long. Don’t let it be one for you. Connecting with and taking responsibility for your emotions is one of the biggest things you can do to improve yourself as a human being. If you are sad you can cry. If you are happy you can laugh. You have a wide range of emotions and they don’t all lead to frustration or anger.

“As someone who, by virtue of my sex, has always had permission to weep, I didn’t initially understand this. Only after multiple interviews did I realize that when boys confided in me about crying—or, even more so, when they teared up right in front of me—they were taking a risk, trusting me with something private and precious: evidence of vulnerability, or a desire for it.“

---

Okay so putting aside all of the reinforcement we get from our parents and institutions and our lack of emotional vulnerability why do we all buy into this dumb shit? Who convinced us all this is what masculinity is? And why do we listen?

“What the longtime sportswriter Robert Lipsyte calls “jock culture” (or what the boys I talked with more often referred to as “bro culture”) is the dark underbelly of male-dominated enclaves, whether or not they formally involve athletics: all-boys’ schools, fraternity houses, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, the military. Even as such groups promote bonding, even as they preach honor, pride, and integrity, they tend to condition young men to treat anyone who is not “on the team” as the enemy (the only women who ordinarily make the cut are blood relatives— bros before hos!), justifying any hostility toward them. Loyalty is paramount, and masculinity is habitually established through misogynist language and homophobia.”

Sounds familiar right guys? Don’t kid yourself. This is what being a man looks like in almost all situations in which we feel “safe” to express our self right? You are either with us or against us. Anything different or anyone questioning this behavior must be “othered” as they are clearly not “on the team”. FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

This was my entire experience as a youth. As someone who did not fit into this group (nor wanted to) I was immediately “othered” and deemed a “pussy” or “fag” or “homo” or “weirdo”. My friend group reflected this - mostly others who also were “not on the team” like women, gays and lesbians, and men who also did not identify with this version of masculinity. Which just made it easier to group us all together and identify us as the enemy. 

“Just because some young men now draw the line at referring to someone who is openly gay as a fag doesn’t mean, by the way, that gay men (or men with traits that read as gay) are suddenly safe. If anything, the gay guys I met were more conscious of the rules of manhood than their straight peers were. They had to be—and because of that, they were like spies in the house of hypermasculinity.” Without the ability to connect with and express my emotions I often reacted in anger. I started fights. I got violent (with words and writing mostly). I returned this “othering” and treated them all as the enemy. I had other reasons for this (being abused by men as a boy) but at the crux of the issue I had no trust for men. This helped me connect with women and my gay friends as they also experienced this distrust in similar (and different) ways. 

Years later I found myself in a job where I managed a group of men (100 or more at any time) working as a team (video game industry) and totally unable to connect with any of them as a human let alone a man. It was at this time that I realized this was a problem beyond my own experiences and when I started to understand my own participation in this system. 

I tried to question things as they came up. I tried to hear my teammates and help them navigate this murky sea of masculinity to find their own place in it. Most people didn’t want to participate. They learned to keep their mouth shut if I was within earshot of their typical “bro talk”. They learned to act differently around me so as not to incur my wrath (using my anger and position of power to punish them for being sexist, racist, or intolerant). I felt powerful and I tricked myself into thinking I was making a difference. I was wrong. 

---

“Recently, Pascoe turned her attention to no homo, a phrase that gained traction in the 1990s. She sifted through more than 1,000 tweets, primarily by young men, that included the phrase. Most were expressing a positive emotion, sometimes as innocuous as “I love chocolate ice cream, #nohomo” or “I loved the movie The Day After Tomorrow, #nohomo.” “A lot of times they were saying things like ‘I miss you’ to a friend or ‘We should hang out soon,’ ” she said. “Just normal expressions of joy or connection.” No homo is a form of inoculation against insults from other guys, Pascoe concluded, a “shield that allows boys to be fully human.”

It wasn’t long before my “making a difference” spread into our hiring, training, and management of the team. I brought in women who wanted to work in the game industry. I tried to shut down any of the bro culture bullshit that came up and used it as an opportunity to teach other men why it was fucked up. It worked for some (maybe 5-6 people out of hundreds) but the majority either quit or tried to get me fired. Most did not change their behavior in any way. 

The women said they knew what they were getting into. I don’t believe they knew what it was like to actually be in the middle of the situation. I assume women in the military probably have a lot of experience like this. In short - it’s fucking toxic and disgusting. Like other males/men they too have to fall in line and “become one of the boys” or risk being antagonized and ostracized for being “different”. It’s Lord of the Flies. It’s fucking mob mentality. It’s masculinity at it’s absolute worst. And this was in a “progressive” creative city working for a small company with a woman CEO. Men simply don’t give a fuck and it’s almost always easier to go with the flow. FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

My first experience with a trans individual in a work setting occurred was while I was managing this team. One of our long term employees made the transition and I had to watch how they were treated by the “bros’. Jokes were made, memes were shared, snickering and fucked up behavior was rampant. I had to talk to, discipline, and fire many individuals. These were men I thought were “on the team” and working to be good examples of masculinity. I should have known that was just part of the act - their way of surviving and showing subservience to me as a man in a position of power over them. My trust was further eroded in masculinity. 

Putting yourself over others is not power. It is dehumanization and it stems from hate. We can be different without being better or worse than someone else regardless of who they are. Not everything has to be a competition. It took me way too long to undo the damage done to me by these ideal of toxic masculinity. You can do it too - you just have to start today. 

---

Beyond the negative effects this version of masculinity has on us as males/men it also fucks up our interaction with women and sexual partners and it’s certainly done so to me. I’m actively working on unfucking my fucking and aware that many of my heterosexual ideals of sex stem from the same shit I have been actively fighting against most of my life. Connecting emotionally with your sexual partner takes things to a completely different level.

“It’s not like I imagined boys would gush about making sweet, sweet love to the ladies, but why was their language so weaponized ? The answer, I came to believe, was that locker-room talk isn’t about sex at all, which is why guys were ashamed to discuss it openly with me. The (often clearly exaggerated) stories boys tell are really about power: using aggression toward women to connect and to validate one another as heterosexual, or to claim top spots in the adolescent sexual hierarchy. Dismissing that as “banter” denies the ways that language can desensitize—abrade boys’ ability to see girls as people deserving of respect and dignity in sexual encounters.”  

This is the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear the term “rape culture”. As men we are taught that to be masculine is to claim “wins” in sexual conquest. Sex is property and we can collect it. Even if it’s with our long term partners or spouses. Ever tried talking to men about this? Ever questioned others on how it’s fucked up? You probably heard about how it’s all in jest. Just a joke! I’m just joking!  “When called out, boys typically claim that they thought they were just being “funny.” And in a way that makes sense—when left unexamined, such “humor” may seem like an extension of the gross-out comedy of childhood. Little boys are famous for their fart jokes, booger jokes, poop jokes. It’s how they test boundaries, understand the human body, gain a little cred among their peers. But, as can happen with sports, their glee in that can both enable and camouflage sexism. The boy who, at age 10, asks his friends the difference between a dead baby and a bowling ball may or may not find it equally uproarious, at 16, to share what a woman and a bowling ball have in common (you can Google it). He may or may not post ever-escalating “jokes” about women, or African Americans, or homosexuals, or disabled people on a group Snapchat. He may or may not send “funny” texts to friends about “girls who need to be raped,” or think it’s hysterical to surprise a buddy with a meme in which a woman is being gagged by a penis, her mascara mixed with her tears. He may or may not, at 18, scrawl the names of his hookups on a wall in his all-male dorm, as part of a year-long competition to see who can “pull” the most. Perfectly nice, bright, polite boys I interviewed had done one or another of these things.”

Let me be clear in case you are confused. This shit isn’t funny. Laughing at other people’s misfortune is a long standing human tradition yes - and it still dehumanizes everyone involved. That doesn’t make me laugh but maybe you are still amused? Why?

“At the most disturbing end of the continuum, “funny” and “hilarious” become a defense against charges of sexual harassment or assault. To cite just one example, a boy from Steubenville, Ohio, was captured on video joking about the repeated violation of an unconscious girl at a party by a couple of high-school football players. “She is so raped,” he said, laughing. “They raped her quicker than Mike Tyson.” When someone off camera suggested that rape wasn’t funny, he retorted, “It isn’t funny—it’s hilarious!”

The classic toxic masculinity force field present in my life has been the “just joking” phrase with the ultimate no consequence phrase “it’s hilarious!”. Say something you don’t want to manage the consequences for? Just a joke! People still question you or your morals after saying some heinous shit? No.. it’s cool... it’s hilarious! You just gotta laugh! FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

“Hilarious” is another way, under the pretext of horseplay or group bonding, that boys learn to disregard others’ feelings as well as their own. “Hilarious” is a haven, offering distance when something is inappropriate, confusing, depressing, unnerving, or horrifying; when something defies boys’ ethics. It allows them to subvert a more compassionate response that could be read as unmasculine—and makes sexism and misogyny feel transgressive rather than supportive of an age-old status quo. Boys may know when something is wrong; they may even know that true manhood—or maybe just common decency—compels them to speak up. Yet, too often, they fear that if they do, they’ll be marginalized or, worse, themselves become the target of derision from other boys. Masculinity, then, becomes not only about what boys do say, but about what they don’t—or won’t, or can’t—say, even when they wish they could. The psychologists Dan Kindlon and Michael Thompson, the authors of Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys, have pointed out that silence in the face of cruelty or sexism is how too many boys become men. 

I feel like I may have already gone too far into this dark hole of shit that fucks me up around toxic masculinity. I hope I didn’t lose you. I hope you have questions and thoughts about how this impacts your life. Perhaps ways that you make a change today to fight against this bullshit. You may be asking yourself “what can we do!?” At the end of the day its up to males/men to change this culture. It’s not about self-hate or self-abuse. We gotta name this and own it. We need more men to step up and say ‘It doesn’t have to be like this”. Our collective mental health requires us to be more flexible and connected to ourselves and emotions. We need to find ways to deal with our anger, frustration, and desires in ways that don’t hurt ourselves and others. We need to teach ourselves (especially youth) that it isn’t enough to only talk about things we shouldn’t (and hopefully won’t) do. 

If this shit fucks you too you can do something about it. Start with yourself. Question these things when they come up. And not only when you feel “safe” to do so. Do it consistently in ways that are non-confrontational (they will probably lead to confrontations with most men anyway - sorry). Be okay with not always “winning’ in these situations. You’ll be surprised who you might connect with in the process. Hopefully one of those people will be yourself. 

#mental health #masculinity #shit that fucks me up

[janiedean]

Reading the JB + stump meta, I felt there could be so much to unpack also about gender/roles in Westeros, there. J not being (a) "whole" (man) bc he thinks he can't *fight* or *have sex with a woman* without his right hand, C thinking he could only "fumble at" her and downgrading him from ideal lover/"me as man" to "undesirable servant I'll let fill my cup", B still seeing him as fighter *and* attractive + wondering if he'd like her to be soft and helpless even while playing knight to his DID..

man you’re opening the hoover damn here if you want to talk to me about jaime and brienne’s gender roles reversal X°DDDDDDD ANYWAY SINCE YOU SO NICELY ASKED

first, as my bro @ofwickedlight​ has pointed out here and here jaime is actually pretty.... not toxic-masculine for westeros standards actually all the contrary, and he already doesn’t have the notions about women being supposedly inferior that most other people have (I’m referring you to those metas because they explain it better than I could here), so we’re already discussing someone who technically is starting from a better vantage point when it comes to deal with that notion

now, going on each specific point you said...

jaime:

as far as jaime is concerned his problem isn’t specifically tied to his lack of masculinity attached to the hand but the hand itself in the sense that if he was born to be a warrior taking it from him is basically taking his main source of pride/joy from him and it makes him useless on his job since it’s being in the *kingsguard*, and given that he can’t be with cersei in public of course he makes up for it with his chivalric prowess... which he doesn’t have anymore. like, that is a self-esteem blow of epic proportions because if he doesn’t have that then he has nothing else going for his supposed usefulness (and mind how he keeps himself alive also thinking he’ll see cersei again because that makes him feel like he can survive another day - if he doesn’t have his skills he’ll have the woman he loves/who loves him, right?) and he has to command the kingsguard without what makes him a knight and so on. now, the thing is that he has to eventually find out that he can fight and have sex and so on also without the right hand and that doesn’t define him whatsoever, but that doesn’t matter because the way he processes things as I said in that other post, he equates feeling good with both sex and sword fights, so taking his ability from one also might mean taking away the other and guess what, if you don’t count the sept sex, he and cersei haven’t really... DONE ANYTHING that’s not her trying to have sex with him and him refusing her when he realizes she’s disgusted since then, which could cement it. but it’s not that it makes him feel like a woman in a derogatory sense, it’s mostly about him feeling like he doesn’t have anymore what makes him good at his job or makes him cersei’s mirror, and mind that until he meets her again and it goes like shit he’s subconsciously aware that she wouldn’t like it if he looked different from her:

The reflection in the water was a man he did not know. Not only was he bald, but he looked as though he had aged five years in that dungeon; his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that.

now, if she loves him that much, should she give a damn? yeah, my point exactly. and while he tells himself that he has to go back to her, he knows subconsciously that she would hate for him to be back changed enough that she can’t recognize herself in him, which should already suggest a lot. but we also have another thing on the other side of the barricade, ie when he asks after brienne when qyburn’s treating him:

"I will ask after her. What is this woman to you?""My protector." Jaime had to laugh, no matter how it hurt.

and okay, he finds it hilarious for obvious reasons, but he doesn’t go and think it’s ridiculous. actually, he is the first one who says she’s his protector. AND, in the tub:

"Does the sight of my stump distress you so?" Jaime asked. "You ought to be pleased. I've lost the hand I killed the king with. The hand that flung the Stark boy from that tower. The hand I'd slide between my sister's thighs to make her wet." He thrust his stump at her face. "No wonder Renly died, with you guarding him.”She jerked to her feet as if he'd struck her, sending a wash of hot water across the tub. Jaime caught a glimpse of the thick blonde bush at the juncture of her thighs as she climbed out. She was much hairier than his sister. Absurdly, he felt his cock stir beneath the bathwater. Now I know I have been too long away from Cersei. He averted his eyes, troubled by his body's response."That was unworthy," he mumbled. "I'm a maimed man, and bitter. Forgive me, wench. You protected me as well as any man could have, and better than most."

now, I think people wrote novels of meta on here but for my purposes, note that first he thinks the sight of the stump distresses her when instead she’s most likely skittish because she’s bathing naked with another naked guy and from someone who thinks she’s ugly/undesirable, bathing naked with someone else is exactly the kind of thing that’d make you skittish, so it wasn’t the stump, then he tells her everything he did with it and she doesn’t care, and she only jerks up when he mentions renly and her failure to protect him, not before. THEN he gets hard looking at her and he’s... I mean, you can see that he has a pretty fucked up conception of sexuality if he thinks ‘okay I’ve been too long away from c.’ then ‘oh fuck she’s making me hot’ when she gets him hard, but never mind that. also, he’s troubled by his own body’s response which is what a fifteen year-old guy would even think and he feels halfway guilty for having felt attracted to someone else which again, he has a fucked up conception of sexuality, but never mind that, what does he say to apologize? ‘I’m bitter and you did a better job than most would have,’ ie: men, and he’s aware that she basically kept him alive throughout that entire thing and doesn’t think she’s lesser for it, all the contrary.

tldr: jaime himself doesn’t see his own condition as ending up in the damsel’s position as demeaning nor has any problem seeing brienne as someone who can and will do what most men would, and has no issue whatsoever with the idea of her protecting him, which is why I keep on saying that we’re in full on reverse gender-coded territory here and that jaime can’t give two fucks about it - he doesn’t, but because he’s gone outside gender norms when he was young and has no technical issue with the idea of women not being inferior and so on (and he also gives zero fucks about how you look, see tyrion), but at this point he doesn’t have the scope to see the entire situation and he has no idea of that nor that he might actually be having feelings when it comes to brienne because again, he’s spent all his life 100% convinced that he and c. are a package deal;

and count that we’re talking about a guy who romanticizes everything he touches to insane degrees - knighthood, his sister, his family and so on - and that when seeing that it’s not the case reacts seriously badly, *but* his relationship with brienne is pretty much devoid of it because when they met they didn’t like each other and he didn’t exactly put her on a pedestal, she earned it in his eyes same as he earned his place in her chart of people she actually admires/loves.

the rest is under the cut because this got long bye.

cersei:

I’ll try to keep this short and objective lest people decide I need to chill (*rolleyes*) but as you said, the thing is that again: cersei wants herself in a male body because she wishes she was born a guy so she could be in the position she yearns for ie tywin’s heir. period. jaime’s needs or personality or whatever matter zero to her but until he thinks they want the same thing then it’s all I’M NOT WHOLE WITHOUT HIM. except that (affc quotes):

"Fool. No one who wears a crown is ever safe." She looked about the hall. Mace Tyrell laughed amongst his knights. Lords Redwyne and Rowan were talking furtively. Ser Kevan sat brooding over his wine at the back of the hall, whilst Lancel whispered something to a septon. Senelle was moving down the table, filling the cups of the bride's cousins with wine as red as blood. Grand Maester Pycelle had fallen asleep. There is no one I can rely upon, not even Jaime, she realized grimly. I will need to sweep them all away and surround the king with mine own people.

"You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He's just a boy." She was tired of Jaime balking her. No one had ever balked her lord father. When Tywin Lannister spoke, men obeyed. When Cersei spoke, they felt free to counsel her, to contradict her, even refuse her. It is all because I am a woman. Because I cannot fight them with a sword. They gave Robert more respect than they give me, and Robert was a witless sot. She would not suffer it, especially not from Jaime. I need to rid myself of him, and soon. Once upon a time she had dreamt that the two of them might rule the Seven Kingdoms side by side, but Jaime had become more of a hindrance than a help.

like: the moment he tells her ‘cersei you’re fucking up’ and actually tries to counsel her, after he loses the hand, he becomes.... MORE OF A HINDRANCE THAN A HELP. like. I need to rid myself of him. that’s.... not exactly what you think of someone who’s your other half or should love no matter what. and as you pointed out, the moment he loses the hand she basically downgrades him because he can’t be the man she wants to be and who cares about what he needs or wants, that’s not even taken into consideration. and tbh in that moment cersei is being more pro-reinforcing gender roles than she’d like to think because the moment he loses the hand (which makes him her male counterpart too, and one who can defend her in time of need like no one else could) and shows that he has a personality that’s, surprise!, not hers, she has no use for him anymore. also counting that cersei is the incarnation of internalized misogyny the whole thing certainly doesn’t go in her favor. and she’s actually pissed off he doesn’t fill her cup and throws it at him while full of wine later but never mind that, the thing is that for how much she hates men for holding her down as a woman she does the exact same thing to anyone else she can get away with including jaime, and that’s not loving someone back regardless because they’re your other half which is what jaime desperately wants instead. like jaime’s entire system is built on the idea that he loves her but she loves him back, and when he finds out it’s not the case, well, friendly reminder he did burn that letter and is trying to put himself back on track;

also: count that she dreamed THEY’D RULE THE SEVEN KINGDOMS, but jaime could have ruled the seven kingdoms when he killed aerys and when ned went inside the room he basically went and said OH HEY HELLO YOU’RE JUDGING ME TOO BAD BUT YOU WANT THAT THRONE? YOU CAN 100% HAVE IT BYE. like. it’s her dream. it was never his and she doesn’t even realize that, which says all about how much she’s aware of his emotional needs but nvm that.

brienne:

this one is the most complicated to unpack imo but that’s because brienne is in the sort-of-unique position of being the only one in between the two of them who manages to go past gender roles completely but actually doesn’t necessarily relish it;

as in: a lot of people assume that brienne wants to be a knight because SHE WANTS TO DO MEN THINGS but no, brienne wants to be a knight because a) it’s the job that better suits her built, b) it allows her to not being stuck at home in a role she hates surrounded by people who make her feel inadequate, c) it fits with her ideas about honor and allows her to have a chance at good things. as in, her key quote in acok was:

"Because it will not last," Catelyn answered, sadly. "Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.""Lady Catelyn, you are wrong." Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. "Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining."Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. She did not have the heart to say it.

now, this is basically telling you black on white that brienne would rather live in a song where the sun is always shining, if you die it’s okay because people will remember you, the knights are never not gallant (like the ones that she had to fight off all her life), the maids are beautiful (like she’s not) and everything is always better than in real life, and in this sense meeting jaime basically strips that from her but not enough. in the sense that he makes her realize that reality and songs don’t go well together, but it doesn’t mean she won’t keep trying to behave the way a proper knight should, which is what she does through all of affc;

but brienne also fell for renly when they danced together (DANCING ie what ladies do) and she was wearing a dress and he was basically nice to her while letting her be feminine for once, brienne admires cat for having a woman’s strength and brienne is entirely down with protecting also women along the road and so on, so like... brienne doesn’t hate feminine things, she just doesn’t partake in them because a) she’s better at being a knight which is sadly a man’s job in westeros, b) everyone made fun of her whenever she tried which then added to her overall self-esteem issues;

now, brienne’s basically going around westeros risking her neck to do knightly things even when as a woman it’s 100% more difficult than it’d be if she were a man and taking on that role, but when she wants to weep on jaime’s shoulder she’s basically saying she wants to be vulnerable with him like the soft helpless maidens she’s not like, and guess what, he did that with her when he told her about aerys pretty much, but again, brienne has no preconceived notion of gender roles blocking her because she doesn’t hate the female-coded ones but has taken on the male-coded ones her entire life because she either had to or felt called to or felt more at ease with them;

so like, jaime gives zero shits that she’s defying them and that makes him look even better/more appealing to her because he’s the only man who took her seriously *for real*/for herself and not for how useful she could be. also, as much as some people would like to say she’s not brienne, being a woman into guys, definitely noticed that he’s attractive (the white cloak becomes you + half a corpse and half a god, HMMM) and like, of course she’s into him, but the thing is that on one side she’s bent on being his knight because he trusted her with it and she swore to protect him (before he sent her off), on the other she sees him as the only male candidate who - having come back for her in the bear pit - she could allow herself to be feminine/vulnerable with because that was the only time in her life she actually was the damsel and not the knight.........and he did it without the hand, so the thing is that to brienne he was the knight in not so shining armor (or armor, period), when he jumped into the bear pit without a weapon or anything else to save her life after coming back for her which no one has ever done before, actually until then she has fought off everyone for herself (ronnet connington/hyle and the other guys). so like.. to brienne, his most heroic moment is when he tries to save her without the hand, so she couldn’t link that loss to his supposed lack of masculinity or skills or heroism because he didn’t need that hand to save her;

also I would like to point out that it’s fairly telling that in affc on one side he punches in the teeth the guy that ruined her self-esteem for good and disrespected her so much that when she has the fever nightmare she sees him and wishes jaime was there and would come back for her, while on the other she kills (and fairly bloodily/not gallantly) both timeon and shagwell (who btw had been especially creepy to jaime in his asos povs) thinking that she’s doing it *for* jaime as well and of course none of them knows what the other is doing in this sense. but like, brienne’s literally going knight in shining armor on him to the point where she’s willing to die for him (and that’s why I’m 100% convinced she kills LS to save him doing also the aerys parallel) and she has no issues with that because that’s what she’s good at.... same as he has no issues with it because he 100% accepted that she can do that job and has done it for him better than most people would have. and at the same time she also sees him as someone who would or might let her be also soft and helpless while he sees her as *gentler* than his sister and trusted her with his most well-guarded secret after she literally kept him alive when he was sure he wouldn’t make it. and the hand, to her, matters absolutely nothing.

like, that is why I think that jb is a case of continuous gender role reversal in which he’s coded as the DID 90% of the time and she’s coded as his knight 90% of the time but switch places for that other 10% of the time to a point where they’re basically well outside gender roles both in westeros terms and modern terms (tbqh that too) but it works perfectly for them. like, the point with cersei is that, for as much as she thinks she’s not, she’s *completely* stuck into the westeros gender roles structure and can’t get out or maneuver around it the way cat did or genna did or other women try to because she wants to have the same power men have without beating around the bush and will stick to it and cares for having power more than anything else and works for that. on the other side brienne has been outside gender roles all her life and can’t give two fucks about it even if she suffers for being denied her feminine side, and jaime has seen enough to know that gender roles are bullshit and women aren’t lesser than he is and also mostly wants to have his emotional needs met which he hasn’t had since forever. which is why jb matches perfectly in that sense, because he wouldn’t mind being with someone outside gender roles who gets him and she needs someone who’ll have her exactly the way she is and be into her regardless of her look or her working outside the norms and who would let her also be soft and helpless if she needed it. and that works for them because they could and would and have been that person already, except that they haven’t quite realized it because they’re two assholes who are shit at understanding their own feelings. and that is also why cersei and jaime post hand-loss can’t work, because she needs someone who’s her and looks like her and wants what she wants and jaime does not and never has.

/peace

#jaime x brienne #jaime lannister #brienne of tarth #janie writes meta #otp: i dreamed of you #anti-cersei lannister #anti-lannincest #is2g if someone tells me to chill about my opinion re jc LOOK AT THE TWO TAGS BEFORE THIS BEFORE YOU PRESS SEND #thank you #PEACE #Anonymous #ask post