supernatural's like. like. their parallels and literary themes are so obvious it becomes bad. like i don't know how they did that, but all their parallels and visual motifs are so obviously spoonfed to the viewer it becomes awful. the best-written stuff in supernatural ends up being the accidental unintentional subtext.
Ok but whenever an abuser apologizes or "makes things right" with someone OTHER than the person abused it makes me angry.
Like why is the big apology, making things right scene in supernatural between John and Sam when Dean was the one who was mostly abused? Yes he should apologize to Sam in some ways, but Sam being apologized to doesn't fix the years of abuse Dean lived through?
Like I don't understand how him apologizing to Sam fixed everything for Sam. Like where was the "thanks dad! But, y'know, you weren't there for me and yelled at me a lot but you also forced Dean to be my parent and kicked him out of the house when he disagreed with you. Maybe you should apologize to him too!"
But no, Sam and John made up so everything is good and all is forgiven because Dean is just a perfect little soldier - no hurt feelings there. He was just doing his job.
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insane hot take time: loki/mobius = dean/castiel
nobody @ me for bringing this up because i was strongly encouraged to post by @forevercloudnine so the blame isnt 100% on me
but watching the first two episodes of loki last night had me pondering about the weird number of structural parallels between loki/mobius (lokius? is that the ship name?) and destiel. i know i know but just listen ok
so lets just reframe the narrative so far in terms of supernatural (sigh. again im very sorry)
weve got loki, who thinks he understands the stakes and the limitations of his universe, being a pretty powerful individual within it himself. suddenly he is made aware of a vast bureaucracy that is dictating his and everyone elses free will, who are above the prior stakes
the mere existence of the tva paralleling the reveal of heaven and the angels in supernatural, seeing as before the big objectives (obtaining infinity stones or killing demons) are suddenly simple (infinity stones as paperweights, angels killing demons with ease)
the reaction of the protagonists being to immediately assume they personally can take down this big structure themselves, and to reassert their personal control over their own free will. loki, and lady loki, (as well as numerous other loki variants from other points in the timeline) are equipped with the tenacity and irritation at being controlled to rebel against this order the second they become aware of it (dangerously deancore)
contrast the entirety of ‘team free will’ fighting heaven and its plan for the winchester brothers, vs lokis obvious unease at becoming a timeline-dangerous variant due to an accident out of his control, and his monologue to mobius about how maybe tva is the only place where people have free will, since theoretically that location is outside the timeline
its pretty obvious though that none of the tva agents are actually agents of their own destiny any more than your run of the mill resident of the normal flow of time is - the only difference is that tva is self-aware. theyre strictly working within the confines of their orders and their mission, and encouraged to think within those bounds. casey hasnt ever left his desk, mobius has a bit more freedom but is obviously still very much confined by the chain of command. whats that castiel quote— “explaining freedom to angels is a bit like teaching poetry to fish.”
this brings us to mobius. hes a believer in the mission, but clearly has his own ideas about how to achieve that. hes willing to take risks, and forge a connection with a loki variant in order to use him to bring the timeline back into alignment
dont even get me started on how BOTH of these shows play the sympathetic white character off of a dark skinned black character who is unwilling to extend the same olive branches to our protag, that's an issue for another post
at first i was thinking to myself, “well, mobius is pretty clearly adept at manipulating loki, so theres one difference!” but no. castiel literally lied to the winchesters for a whole season about his true motivations, so despite his guilelessness hes obviously capable of manipulation and deception. goddamn it all
theres also the unfortunate truth that both loki and the winchesters have primarily been slash-shipped in incest ships prior to the introductions of these characters. honestly that parallel on its own is already a little bit damning?
obviously we are only on episode two but mobius is probably going to end up working with loki in some capacity. if he defects from the bureaucratic hegemony that is heaven the tva im going to lose my fucking mind, the baseline parallels are already too much for me to handle without going a little cuckoo
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Dean Winchester is the music that made the show.
Over the years, I've learned that what makes a story so vibrant and transcend time is not just the writing or the acting but the music.
Music in movies and tv shows is crucial in making the story unroll. Music brings emotion to another level. When a character is associated with a genre of music, not only does it make the show interesting, it gives us more insight into who that character is.
In Supernatural, Dean is the one that gets a genre of music that's very characteristic of him and not because he's a guy's guy but because we understand that music is an escape for him. It's a way for him to relax and let go of the day. And most of the time, it's an indication of what's going on internally when he can't express himself.
What's interesting is how Dean gets his score: Americana composed by Jay Gruska. It's the one piece out there that represents Dean so perfectly. It has the heart and sensitivity that Dean tries to hide during the entirety of the show. It has the strength of a little boy who had to fight to be a kid, the pain of a young man that had to hide who he was because the world was not ready to see him.
Contrary to what others might think, he's the only one to get his own score, and if other characters happen to have one, it's usually derived from Dean's. Why is that? Well, Dean is the heart of the show. He leads the story through his music, whether it's Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Traffic, Billy Squier, or Taylor Swift. It's not Sam or John. Dean is the narrator.
A character that has a music theme is the main character. Sam may have a score that people associate him with. However, it doesn’t make an impact on the story. It's not used as the ballad that supports every emotional scene the way Americana is, and that says a lot.
Dean's style of music makes the whole show so vibrant that in 10 years fans of the show will remember Black In black as a Dean Winchester song. They will listen to Americana, Dean's score, and remember Supernatural.
They will remember That he was the one that brought the family together. He wanted Sam and John to be family again, he made Cas care about Jack and Sam, he's the one that makes the family a whole because he cares.
And found family was the heart of the show.
If the score makes you think about the show now, it's because of Dean. It's part of his hero's journey. He's the song that makes the story lives on.
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I’ve seen a few not really accurate translations today. In Russian Dean says “не вздумай, Кас”, which is not “Don’t even think about”, it’s “Don’t you dare”, and —
Don’t you dare leave me like this.
Don’t you dare die on me.
Don’t you dare give me everything I’ve ever wanted for it to be yanked out of my hands just a moment later.
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all the cracks you see on the walls of this place were carved by my eyes. i have been looking at them for years –– fifteen hourglasses shattered between clenched teeth. no use counting them.
𝚃𝙷𝙴 𝙿𝚁𝙾𝙱𝙻𝙴𝙼𝚂 𝚃𝙷𝙰𝚃 𝙴𝚇𝙸𝚂𝚃 𝙸𝙽 𝚂𝚄𝙲𝙷 𝙸𝙽𝚂𝚃𝙸𝚃𝚄𝚃𝙸𝙾𝙽𝚂 𝚂𝙷𝙰𝙻𝙻 𝙽𝙾𝚃 𝙳𝙰𝙼𝙰𝙶𝙴 𝙷𝙸𝚂 𝙲𝙷𝙰𝙽𝙲𝙴𝚂 𝙾𝙵 𝚁𝙴𝚃𝚄𝚁𝙽𝙸𝙽𝙶 𝚃𝙾 𝚂𝙾𝙲𝙸𝙴𝚃𝚈 ...
before there was evil, there was the criminalization of the mentally ill. before a proper trial could be held at the age of twenty-one, there was punishment. before the boogeyman, there was a boy sentenced to living death. smith’s grove: where patients are, first and foremost, prisoners.
michael was not treated; he was subjected to a regimen of psychiatric control meant to render him docile. his antisocial tendencies were not addressed as much as they were simply repressed. after all, loomis never intended for him to see the light of day. why socialize an animal who will forever be chained to a cage? would treatment have changed anything / could it have prevented a potentially inevitable outcome? who can say.
programming in smith’s grove was particularly dismal for michael, who was subjected only to the techniques of loomis. loomis, who studied him rather than treated him / loomis, who relied too heavily on the use of psychotropics to keep michael in a state of pseudo-zombification. so he adapted, learned, and resisted. loomis was not afraid of him, but the other staff were. pills went missing / syringes were returned to locked cabinets as full as when they left. who could tell? michael embraced his living catatonia over the years, patiently biding his time until the right moment to strike. he became comfortably numb, living an existence in which he was incapacitated –– by thorazine, by the tomb in his own mind, and sometimes by both. loomis wanted michael to lose himself in order to keep him docile … and lose himself he did. but in losing himself, he only grew closer to the evil lurking beneath the surface. prison does not make people better. PRISON MAKES PEOPLE WORSE.
... 𝙰𝚂 𝙰 𝙽𝙾𝚁𝙼𝙰𝙻, 𝙷𝙴𝙰𝙻𝚃𝙷𝚈, 𝙵𝚄𝙻𝙻𝚈 𝙵𝚄𝙽𝙲𝚃𝙸𝙾𝙽𝙰𝙻 𝙷𝚄𝙼𝙰𝙽 𝙱𝙴𝙸𝙽𝙶.
how can i see myself when i am always with me. how do i know myself. say no to mirrors; they can only enumerate me or make me one. i am not like that. i am not myself or the other. i am in no state at all.
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It was a love story from the very beginning.
Hi My dears! We are gonna talk today about Dean's heart and choices in episode 14x13 (episode 300).
Remember this is a summary of my metas about season 4. You can find them here: X, X and X.
This entire episode 'Lebanon' was about closing circles with a huge issue for the boys: John Winchester. Part of their healing process needed to close this door.
But it also talked about what was inside Dean's heart: How he faced a wish he had when he was 4 years old and how he 'exchanged' that wish for his present wish at his 40 years old. (Related to episode 14x06 and the beginning of this episode with an 'exchange shop')
SAM: How did this happen?
DEAN: I-I-I don’t know. You said that the – the pearl gives you what your heart desires, right? So, my heart desired – I – I’ve wanted this, man. I’ve – I’ve wanted this since I was 4 years old.
Gif credit @starlightcastiel
So, Dean had to make his duel about the image of his mother at his four years old with his present mother, the real one, the human that makes mistakes, and not the perfect one (season 12). And now it was time to choose between John Winchester (toxic masculinity, past) vs Dean's chosen family and romantic love (Castiel).
Dean had a long list of Daddy issues, but he still was longing for him and for a family reunion, to be together, happy as they were before Yellow Eyes.
That's the wish from Dean's Innocent childhood heart, bc inside of him he knew... He need to forgive John Winchester and let him go.
What Dean, a 40 years old man, really wants
Gif credit @inacatastrophicmind
This was a huge heartbreaking feeling for Dean, he had lost his hunting life, and now, he had lost Castiel. And that, my friends, was the thing. Not doubts. He wouldn't allow to lose, not his life as a hunter, not his family, and he would never lose Castiel again.
I wrote all this section pointing why Dean decided to turn the wish back. He literally chosed Castiel, his family, against his past, his toxic masculinity, John Winchester.
The Exchange and the visual narrative
A place where you "exchange" your "treasures" for money. You leave behind things there to obtain a benefit. The same thing Dean did in this episode, he left John behind (with pain) to keep his present family.
At the beginning of the episode we have Dean and Sam in a pawnshop. This place was full of visual narrative. Symbolism of Hispanic cards (three swords, two cups, etc) representing pain.
It also had stories of wishes as a warning and pain too (you can find the entire meta in one of the links I put at the beginning of this one).
All of this scenario was pointing to one conclusion:
Gif credit: @jensenackles-daily
The Big Decision
Dean needed to love himself, to be comfortable with his present, and starting from that point, he was able to take his decision. But mostly, to face John Winchester.
Gif credit @agusvedder
But, what makes Dean to be so desperate at the point to lose his father again and get his present back?
Gif credit @agusvedder
Dean couldn't live in a reality in which Castiel didn't know him. That was so painful to him, that it made him take his decision once and for all.
And this, my friends, this is Dean chosing his angel, over his father. (What I predicted in 14x06).
This was a very important episode for character's improvement. Not just for Dean, but also for Sam. The centric source of Dean's decision to choose his present over his past was Castiel. That's why his face is full of happiness and love when his angel cross the Bunker's door at the end of the episode.
Hope you like this meta, see you in the next one.
Tagging @magnificent-winged-beast @emblue-sparks @weird-dorky-little-d @michyribeiro @whyjm @legendary-destiel @a-bit-of-influence @thatwitchydestielfan @misha-moose-dean-burger-lover @lykanyouko @evvvissticante @savannadarkbaby @dea-stiel @poorreputation @bre95611 @thewolfathedoor @charlottemanchmal @neii3n @deathswaywardson @followyourenergy @dean-is-bi-till-i-die @hekatelilith-blog @avidbkwrm @anarchiana @dickpuncher365 @vampyrosa @authorsararayne @mybonsai1976 @love-neve-dies @dustythewind @wayward-winchester67 @angelwithashotgunandtrenchcoat @trashblackrainbow @deeutdutdutdoh @destiel-shipper-11 @larrem88 @charmedbycastiel @ran-savant @little-crazy-misha-minion @samoosetheshipper
@shadows-and-padlocked-hearts @mishtho @dancingtuesdaymorning @nerditoutwithbooks @mikennacac73 @justmeand-myinsight @idontwantpeopletoknowmyname @teddybeardoctor @pepevons @helevetica @dizzypinwheel @horsez2 @qanelyytha
If you want to be added or removed from this list just let me know.
@destielle @spnsmile @shippsblog @robot-feels @superlock-in-the-tardis @superduckbatrebel @belacoded @madronasky @anon-non2 @cea1996 @lisafu02 @asphodelesauvage @deancasgirl777
If you wanna read the previous metas from this season here you have the links:
Vol. CIX, CX, CXI, CXII, CXIII, CXIV, CXV, CXVI.
Buenos Aires June 13th 2021 11:40 AM
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so, i finished watching 15-season, 320-episode cw hit supernatural, which i thought was generally pretty alright. being of sound mind and body, of course, my immediate next step was to start the process over and go back and watch it all again. from the beginning.
all this to say, here’s a line from the pilot i thought was pretty neat. for context, dean says this after he gets caught up in hunting with sam Like Old Times, only for sam to remind him that their times aren’t old, and he’s got an interview for law school in like ten hours. dean’s heartbroken, but sam’s happiness comes first, he won’t push more than he’s already allowed himself to, etc.
for MORE context, the very first spn Monster Of The Week was constance welch: a “woman in white,” which, in this case, means she was half la llorona, half phantom hitchhiker. and all through the episode, she makes the same request:
sam himself, in fact, said dean’s quote above nearly verbatim to constance, before driving a car through the wall (s1 rights!)
so, yeah. it’s a theme.
naturally, since it’s being said to sam, the obvious parallel plays into monster sammy implications; this is strengthened somewhat by the fact that the ghost of constance is ultimately vanquished when sam realizes that she’s afraid to go home, that she’s scared to face her family... while sam has spent the last few years at stanford feeling just the same. however, as much as i LOVE to talk about monster sammy... i think, in this case (and at the risk of exposing my deangirlism as completely terminal), sam is only the red herring. the real monster is dean.
on the surface, dean is practically the inverse of constance welch. he’s behind the wheel; she’s a hitchhiker. he’s a hunter, she’s a special type of ghost. he’s trying desperately to keep his family close to him, she’s unable to face her own. BUT, look how the episode is framed. they’re both monsters. tragic monsters! they are both what life made them! it doesn’t revive constance’s victims, but we know that she only killed her children while suffering a lapse because of her cheating husband, joseph. it doesn’t take dean off the path that will see him killing literal hundreds and committing unspeakable acts against sam’s autonomy, but everything he is, is absolutely the product of being raised by john (and i feel like there’s something to be noted about the initials of Joseph Welch and John Winchester). and yet--it doesn’t change a thing. dean’s fear of being left alone in the face of the life they were raised into brings him to pull sam right back in, at the same time as constance’s new nature (the product of her actions at the very end of her life) makes sam a target. they both “violate” him. sam and constance are both running, true, and they both get sucked back toward the thing they fear, but what is for her an ending and a punishment and perhaps, on some level, a relief, holds for sam only a new beginning and a terrible continuation and abject horror of a trauma you cannot escape from. dean is lurking in the shadows. dean is the life of hunting sam wanted to leave behind.
this is the pilot episode, and it says: here is supernatural’s thesis statement. because of a corrupting outside influence (joseph/john), the mother (constance/dean... although we don’t yet know, as of this episode, that dean was essentially forced to raise sam. shhh. it still holds up.) betrays her children (the kids constance killed/sam) and makes them what she is (a ghost/a hunter). after some time, wherein the mother inevitably devolves into a non-sentient killing machine, the children are finally able to regain control of their narrative and they take her down with themselves, as a punishment for the actions and the betrayal, but also in what could be forgiveness, and to set both mother and children free from the terrible stasis she put them in.
oh boy! i can’t wait to rewatch the other 319 episodes and see how the writers will incorporate this into their grand finale!
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@brotherwives "well it isn't incest but it sure has hurt a lot of people" is single handedly the best thing I have ever read on this app. It's so true?? When it comes to either saving the world or saving each other they always choose each other. And it's not always necessarily high risks either. If they're on a hunt and it goes south, they're gonna save each other and leave the victims if need be, that's what they do! (That's what dean almost did in red meat) "saving people, hunting things" only matters when the other brother isn't in danger. They say that family don't end in blood, but if you aren't sam or dean it will most likely end bloody for you.
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dean winchester placed in the toxic sacred role of the eldest daughter fully willing to brainwash himself for the good of the family, actively sabotaging and holding back his own brother from breaking out of that cycle, the burden of both taking care of his younger brother and trying to stop him from growing up,
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It kinda sucks that Supernatural decided to go full circle instead of, idk, giving their creations proper endings that would've made sense and actually been satisfying.
At the start, Sam didn't want to hunt. He wanted a normal life. Dean didn't want/didn't think he deserved a normal life. He "wanted" to die hunting. But then you see their real issues in time and what makes Sam happiest is leading and being a teacher (and getting a dog, let this man have a dog!!!) And Dean is happiest around family (Cas, Jack, Sam, Eileen, and bring in all the wayward sisters, etc)
Sam and Eileen retiring from hunting and becoming leaders and teachers to younger hunters and Dean gaining a "normal" life (job application, Cas and Jack, etc) would have been imo, the best ending for them. They don't get what they "want", they get what they need in the end. Peace AND freedom. Doing what makes them happy without an audience to entertain.
But instead we get everyone dying and going to fake heaven. It's fake as fuck because Bobby would never be happy to see Dean without grey hairs showing up. It's way out of character.
Plus, everything they did was basically for nothing because they all died anyway. It wasn't impactful considering the way Dean died kinda stupidly and unrealistically. And god, Sam was butchered with that wig! They butchered my boy!!!!!
I'm just saying... Anyone who thought the finale was a satisfying ending and in character... Maybe pay attention while watching the show....
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Bela Talbot was such a missed opportunity. She was the first female character that was not sexually interested in the Winchesters and the one woman that they genuinely hated which, is a good thing given SPN’s track record in portraying women up until that point. Every woman had been sexually or romantically interested in the boys, and even if the boys had reason to hate the female character they’d still think “wow they’re hot”. With Bela, Dean just full-on hated her. Sam wanted to have sex with her but Bela herself didn’t give a shit about either of them which was refreshing.
Bela was a character in her own right with reasons for her actions. She’s manipulative, confident, cocky, but also sad, scared and lonely. She’s essentially on the same ticking clock as Dean, and they both deal with their imminent deaths with a devil-may-care attitude.
But they’re also extremely different. Bela is selfish, uncaring, cruel, and just wants her shit done and doesn’t care about the collateral damage. Dean cares, he will throw himself away if it means protecting his family, self-destructive, he can’t believe that he deserves nice things and therefore never seeks it out.
Also, daddy issues.
Dean was abused by his dad let’s be real. He was absent from his life, John wanted to make him a soldier, ‘daddy’s blunt weapon’, the likes of that. He justifies it saying that’s what had to be done to keep them all safe, but the way he treated Adam is really indicative of what he could’ve done. One baseball game would’ve been enough, one fishing trip, one day where they’re just father and son, but he couldn’t even give Sam and Dean that.
From what we saw of Bela and her dad, the setting of the scene and portrayal looked like he sexually assaulted her, and given her reaction to his appearance, it wasn’t a one-time thing. She was abused, used, and no one bothered to defend her. Thing is she is fully aware that her parents were shit. She knows she deserved better.
The two of them view family as wildly different. Dean thinks family is everything, blood is everything. Bela knows that isn’t true because ‘family’ and ‘blood’ can and will hurt you. If you think about it, Bela and Dean together could have worked to say the message “family doesn’t end in blood”. And no I’m not saying they should’ve gotten married and had an ‘apple pie life’ because that’s out of character for Bela and contradicts the “blood doesn’t end in family”. I’m saying they could’ve learned to trust each other and grown to forge a friendship based on shared experiences and how they changed each other.
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ok so i saw someone saying as a joke that dean was swallowed by empty or something similar but actually it makes so much sense bc like in the final episode when sam and dean talk about jack and cas, dean is angry that cas isnt there, that he died, but then in "heaven" when bobby tells him about cas he practically doesn't react so my theory is that at some point chuck erased dean's memory of cas (or part of it) or was replaced by look alike to fool sam, and dean is in empty or fake heaven or hell
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the thing that keeps fascinating me about endverse, regardless of whether it's an actual future in their universe or an AU of zachariah's creation, is the sheer greek tragedy type vibes it has. we have the fearless leader, deserted by all the gods, angels and good spirits out there that once protected his family. we have the feud between brothers, who are doomed to try and kill each other, just like chuck's ending would eventually demand it. we have the backdrop of concerned citizens, the chorus that follows the leader through every change of scenery. we have an almost prophetic kind of guy who isn't being listened to, even though he points out the recklessness of their plan, but in good old tragedy fashion, honor weighs heigher than sense. no matter if it's a future ending of chuck's devising or one of zachariah's tricks, the theatrical elements of it are impressive.
we as the audience get to see it as a performance on a little stage of its own. we are being shown the worst aspects of the characters. we see sam saying yes to lucifer, we see dean losing his hope and becoming cruel and numb, we see castiel lost without his grace, a hippie-type addict, and we see bobby dead. we see a broken family that becomes even more broken through the curse of its bloodline, that seems like inescapable fate at this point.
and yet, all of it remains firmly on its stage even within canon. the curtain drops at the scheduled time, the masks get removed and we return to the real world, the main timeline, where the repercussions don't exist anymore, only the strange feeling of being moved by the play that was performed, as it should be. it's not a specific event in the endverse, it's the impression that this performance has left that leads dean to rethink his actions. eleos and phobos, compassion and fear, exactly the reactions that a good piece of writing should elicit in the consumer. it's tailormade to fit onto this little stage.
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my "Crowley isn't attracted to women" take
for @spnprideweek - day 2 - mlm
cw: dicussion of homophobia & transphobia
all in all I wanted to highlight how canon gay Crowley is bc I love him 💕 thank u spn for Crowley even tho he deserved better
in the last weeks I've realized there's a huuge consensus in the fandom for pansexual Crowley. if you're pan or not and wanna hc Crowley as pan, power to you! but what's bothering me is the non-discussion of it all. the way it seems obvious for everyone. whereas, to me, Crowley has been canonically gay all this time.....
I'm aware Mark Sheppard alledgely said he saw Crowley as pansexual, however I can't even take these words for canon without context.
Especially not when a year later he'd say Crowley's sexuality didn't matter. The way Mark Sheppard talks about characters' sexuality is more a "why are people making a big deal let them be" than "the character doesn't care."
Moreover, actors pov can't be taken as canon imo. Jensen Ackles thought Dean straight for so long when Dean's been bi all this time as well.
Sometimes actors are biased by their own experiences & stereotypes!
on god I don't wanna start discourse lmao. I just wanna share my silly thoughts about a tv show & question the way Crowley's sexuality is written in this silly homophobic tv show. don't @ me about what's making you think Crowley is indisputably pansexual bc I assure you I already know your points
That being said, here's why I think Crowley is a bear, a gay man, a trans gay man actually, a homosexual, who isn't attracted to women & some food for thoughts about why the unquestioned consensus towards pan Crowley could have roots in both homophobia & panphobia.
I don't think we can think of Crowley as your usual demon. We know too much about Crowley's life as a human, and the numerous ways in which he acts un-demony, almost humanly after. Considering him simply like a demon with no concept of gender preference who would be pan “by default” wouldn’t be right with his character. But we also can't question his sexuality in the exact same way we would a human's.
It also can't be thought in the same way as angels': as once-humans demons do have a concept of gender. Crowley especially cares a lot about his gender presentation and the way he's addressed. Not only does he literally sell his soul for a bigger d*ck as a human ; as a demon he uses the same vessel where other demons are shown to move once they had to leave one ; and for the few hours Crowley's possessing a woman, he clearly states he should still be referred to as king.
This will all be used for homophobic & transphobic jokes in the show, but I'll get back to that later on. Gender does matter to Crowley's identity, and I think it could be extended to his sexuality.
I've seen numerous descriptions of it all saying Crowley's sexuality was "ambiguous" and I guess it is, as he never explicitly used any label. However "ambiguous" doesn't mean bi or pan. It doesn't mean anything besides the fact we can't draw a clear-cut conclusion of his sexuality.
Imo we can actually draw a clear-cut conclusion of Crowley's sexuality but yeh, I'm getting there.
Let's take a look at canon events around Crowley & sexuality!
His character introduction is him enjoying making a homophobe man kiss him for a deal
It is rumoured that he was a demon's lover (Lilith's)
He heavily flirts with Bobby
He french kisses Bobby for a deal and takes a pic
He never kisses a woman on screen (tell me if I forgot anyone!)
He flirts with every single man he sees, and even more strongly when it's making the other uncomfortable
The other parent of Crowley's son is never mentioned nor even brought up
He has two orgies that we know of
He has sex with a demon who's possessing a woman (Lola) when he was addicted to human blood
He dates, has sex with, and asks Dean to rule Hell with him. He's in love with Dean
On late spn he drinks fruity drinks
He flirts with and implies he had sex with an angel (Naomi)
He flirts with Death (Billie)
He's into BDSM
I'm not gonna go into details with all the sexual stuff he says bc there's a lot.... But it's always about gay sex. (once again, if I'm forgetting smth pls tell me nicely)
Now, with all that I'd like to question specifically the elements people use to say Crowley is canonically attracted to women.
He has two orgies that we know of
There’s the one Crowley has while he’s himself possessing a woman ; iirc it’s a foursome with two other men and one woman. Crowley still counts as a King, as the show makes sure we know, admitedly this dialogue implies we should still think of him as a not-very-manly-man.
Honestly, if one is convinced Crowley is attracted to women based on this scene.. okay. Personally I don’t see it because the orgy is unplanned, it’s an opportunity Crowley takes. Is he even attracted to the two other men?? Who knows. We don’t even know if Crowley even touches the other woman, there’re so many ways to have group sex. Even if he did, having sex with one woman doesn’t make it impossible for him to be homosexual.
The second orgy is with Dean. Crowley describes it then: “We've done extraordinary things to triplets.” It’s interesting how before I went to check, I thought it was clear the triplets were women. But not at all! I’ve been tricked by heteronormativity myself. So this is up to interpretation. Even though the way the show doesn’t make sure we know the triplets were women is pretty telling (as I’ll talk about later).
It is rumoured that he was Lilith's lover
Well, this is a rumour. In this relationship Crowley would know Lilith as a demon possessing a woman, and Lilith would know Crowley as a demon possessing a man as well. Who's even to say they met in their vessels to sleep together. That's the kind of cases in which the ambiguity of Crowley human/demon situation makes it impossible to draw any kind of conclusion towards Crowley's attraction to women. Also if anything Lilith is clearly a lesbian lmao.
He has sex with Lola when he was addicted to human blood
Same thing here, the relationship is one of demon/demon. Though we do now they do meet in their vessels to sleep together. Besides that, the sex happens while Crowley is at a low point. She's the one bringing him human blood, which makes the sex more of a transaction than anything. It does fit a very grey area of consent which would be fair to question.
We can't know for sure whether the demon possessing the woman was a woman as well, but let's say she was: 1/ Crowley having sex once or twice with a woman doesn't prevent him from being homosexual. 2/ What is he seeing if not a demon's true form? 3/ Wasn't he in a self-destructive mental state?
It's a stretch, imo, to assume Crowley was attracted to her.
He flirts with and had sex with Naomi / flirts with Billie
This one is so ridiculous to me bc Naomi is an angel and as a demon, Crowley sees her true form. We don't even know who was her vessel when they had sex.
The flirt thing is interesting however, bc iirc Naomi and Billie are the only "women" we see Crowley actually flirt with. During the orgies or the demon sex there's no flirt involved. It's interesting bc, as Cas would say: "Naomi's vessel is a woman. Naomi is an angel."
Same case for Billie who's a reaper then Death. Spn is pretty unclear about how the whole thing works but we know reapers are kind of angels. In any case, I won't go as far as saying Billie has any connection to gender.
Moreover, the way Crowley flirts with them is pretty light next to everything else Crowley says to men. It's pretty personal, I'm aware, but I do relate a lot with the way Crowley flirts with them VS how I flirt with men just because (and I'm a lesbian).
Anyway! Both Naomi and Billie are supernatural creatures, which brings the count of women Crowley flirts with to... zero.
-> What I take from all that is that Crowley is attracted to men for sure ; to angels and demons ; and doesn't care about the genitalia involved in the sex he has. We have nothing about the kind of relationships he had as a human. His gender presentation matters a lot to him. The only long-term commitment he has is with Dean. I wouldn't even say he had a committed relationship with Gavin's other parent bc we don't know anything about them.
But what's my deal with homosexual Crowley? One can wonder, if Crowley doesn't care about bodies, doesn't that mean he can still be written as pan?
No! First because sexual attraction isn't about genitalia (even if transphobes would argue the contrary but they're transphobic so...). And second, well....
I would refer to this point as "how do I know Crowley isn't attracted to women? bc Dean is"
I'm convinced that if the show wanted to write Crowley as anything other than a gay man, it would have been way more obvious.
This is a show who wrote Dean catcalling a faceless woman on the street, for no other reason than to remind the viewers Dean was attracted to women & to balance it with the following homoerotic scene.
One could say spn doesn't have lots of women characters to begin with, but that's my point exactly: when spn wants to show attraction towards women, they do find women for people to be attracted to. Hell, they even give Gavin some girlfriend but never ever bring up the topic of Gavin's other parent. Even though an entire episode is dedicated to learning about Crowley's past.
What's important to understand Crowley's sexuality isn't the people he slept with ; it's the people he doesn't show interest in.
The absence of something is the presence of the thing, blablabla. It's a way to look at homosexuality that heteronormativity makes hard to see because, unconciously, we don't tend to question attraction towards the expected gender. One would ask for a 10 pages essay on why a character is gay, but one would need only a 2 sec kiss to assure a character's heterosexuality or attraction towards the expected gender.
In Crowley's case, his attraction to men is a huge part of his character right from the beginning (thanks god, at least no one's questioning that). Spn as a show that hears what the fans are saying and twists writing accordingly, is perfectly aware of that. Yet rather than pushing women at him along the course of the show to remind everyone how Not Gay Crowley is - the opposite happens.
Yeh, Lola, Naomi, Billie, they all happen in the later seasons. But even then, the show somehow can't write Crowley as attracted to a human woman.
What happens then is: not only does Crowley fall for Dean ; he engages in some BDSM play with Lucifer : and he switches from drinking only the finest Scotch to fruity cocktails.
The BDSM thing as well as the drink thing are choices rooted in stereotypes, that's how spn is! But it does canonize Crowley's homosexuality. They're depriving him of his "masculinity" as the show goes on, because they purposely write him as homosexual. I don't think spn would have ever written a bi or pan character that way.
We learned a few days ago that Crowley died in a gutter. He died in a gutter for a bigger d*ck. I'm just gonna refer to Oscar Wilde & Mika on this : "some of us in the gutter are looking up at the stars."
The "referred to as king" scene isn't about Crowley being a demon and so not caring about gender - it's the opposite. Other demons are the ones poiting out Crowley's vessel. This is a transphobic joke. It's the demon edition of the "gay boy in a dress" transmisogynistic trope.
Viewers aren't supposed to be on Crowley's side ; we're supposed to be giggling with the other demons while Crowley is being emasculated. Crowley gets a woman vessel because he's a not-very-manly-man, because he's a trans man, because he's homosexual.
And I know that bc Dean is written as bi, and all they're doing is reaffirming the way he does like women while being extra subtle with his love for men.
Meanwhile Crowley is losing influence and power, loses his authority as he loses his throne in Hell, gets humiliated by Lucifer, until all his character revolves around is his love for Dean.
The way Crowley is then protrayed as some lovesick ex who can't move on is, imo, a straight man fantasy. Crowley's love is both used as predatory and as a tool to validate Dean's Peak Masculinity.
Spn has been burying their gays all along, and Crowley was right there being punished for not only being in love with Dean but for not being attracted to women. For never being able to be a "normal" guy. For never being able to be seen as a "normal" guy. For checking every homophobic stereotypes in the books. Crowley as a human dies because he's a trans man. Crowley as a demon dies because he's homosexual.
That's what leads me to be uncomfortable with the way the fandom seems to have a consensus towards pansexual Crowley. (Once again: idc about people's personal hc of Crowley as pan, I just want to think critically about the way no one thinks twice about it & accepts it as canon so easily. Hell, just bc I dared to ask what started the pan Crowley confirmation I got accused of erasing his pansexuality. All I did was ask a question.)
To me, it feels like erasing everything his character went through because he was gay. And it seems to be taken from a reasoning which is going to assume Crowley is attracted to women.
I mean: the reasoning would go "oh, Crowley clearly has a non-straight sexuality -> he's attracted to men -> he's pan" His attraction to women being accepted by default, without needing any backup. And when I look at the canon I see nothing implying he'd be attracted to women. Taking Crowley's attraction to women for granted is following an heteronormative thinking.
Being into people isn't all about who one sleeps with. It's about love. And when we look at what spn shows about Crowley's close relationships, the only meaningful one he got is with Dean. When Rowena wants payback for Crowley making her kill Oskar, she goes for his son.
And it's SO interesting to me because if angels can't be in love because they don't have a soul - can demons? as they're beings with a destroyed soul? And if so, how powerful of Crowley to still fall in love with Dean Winchester.... the power of gay love :) (Crowley 🤝 Cas)
To conclude all this with some more stuff to think about if, like me, you love questioning everything:
While it's not wrong per se to hc Crowley as pan, it can be worth questioning what's making us so sure we collectively just vibe with it? To me there's a few things:
- As I was saying: heteronormative bias
- Crowley being a non-fully-human character
- Crowley being masculine (despite the show's attempts to erase that)
- Crowley being into BDSM
- Crowley flirting and making sexual remarks in every context
These, unconsciously, gives a vibe of a character who's "outside" of the gender norm, not making big deal of their sexuality, not even questioning it. This creates this idea of "ambiguity" around Crowley's sexuality. The way Crowley particularly seems to be really chill about sex, is a demon (so what does he know about gender?), and heavily flirty, ... is what most people will link to pansexuality. That doesn't mean thinking of Crowley as pan is being problematic™ ; this means in western medias that's what fills the "pansexual character" imagery (like basically: the Jack Harkness type).
However, when we look at it like that, none of these elements are defining of pansexuality. None of them are excluding him from homosexuality. If not stereotypes.
That's where it gets personal ; but it does make me feel like the huge consensus towards a pansexual Crowley (when there is no clear-cut evidence of it) is erasing the complexity of homosexual experiences. As I said at the begining: I'm happy if pansexual people can relate to Crowley ; everone's free to headcanon. But saying Crowley is canonically pansexual is a stretch - and a take rooted in homophobic stereotypes.
Imo Crowley may have been created with all these traits pushing towards a pan reading of his character. However, as the show went, he was clearly written as a homosexual man. The changes in his portrayal took a turn to be specifically homophobic. He gets imagery that only strictly homosexual characters got (such as drinking fruity cocktails like Aaron. Meanwhile Dean, on the same scene, is allowed beer & whiskey.)
We're used to taking spn's homophobic rep and jokes to make it our own. Yet it seems, when it comes to Crowley, the fandom doesn't see it.
Sometimes people aren't attracted to the gender heteronormativity expects them to be attracted to.......... sometimes people are gay and it's not an umbrella term.
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something about how i have seen the shot of dean kneeling by cas' side in 12x23 so many times but i never really pay attention to the imprint of cas' wings. every time an angel died prior, the imprint of their wings is the focus of the moment. they're huge and powerful and its a big deal. every time cas showed his wings prior. it's poignant and beautiful and its a big deal. but in 12x23 that’s not the focus of the moment. the focus of the moment is dean. shattered at the alter of cas.
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Special sneak peek into our newest episode, in which we discuss SPN Season 01, Episode 03: Dead in the Water
Listen HERE, or wherever you get your podcasts!
i’m going to go out on a limb here and say it: the coolest things that spn ever did was with sam. they tried to replicate his best story arcs with others in the series and it never really worked because they stripped off the concept at its most superficial level and stuck it on somebody else, like putting a bandaid over gangrene--why would it even make sense with this person?
sam’s thorny and morally ambiguous descent into darkness and demon blood addiction in s2-s4 tried to find a mirror with dean’s moc/demon arc but the latter didn’t really go anywhere. soulless!sam was reduced to a shorthand for ‘losing empathy’ and ‘inappropriately quippy’ when it was applied to jack and donatello, whoever he was. michael!dean rattling around in dean’s brain was nothing on sam’s mindscapes from 5.22, 6.22 or 9.01. they even kept rehashing hallucifer for castiel and then jack!
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Ur most disliked spn arc
i guess technically that would be the BMOL arc in s12, which i disliked so intensely i did not watch 80% of the season and have no desire to do so in the future.
among the stuff i could actually bring myself to watch, the mark-of-cain arc in s10 was a disappointment. it was just a slog. i guess while watching it, still high off the relatively excellent s9, i thought it was interesting that the show really leaned into showing us an uglier side of dean, that he didn't need to be possessed to be truly dangerous. but looking back, it doesn't feel like anything valuable came out of it. dean would constantly swing between wanting to be saved from the mark and to just give up entirely, with poor sam and castiel desperately trying to keep up. sam especially was stuck in an awful place where he had to strive to mitigate the potential harm that his brother could unleash, try to 'save' dean, and do these things in a universe that was ready to pin the blame on him for anything that went awry while he tried to do the first two.
it wasn't fun! it was terrible! and sam's hair was the worst it had ever been during this arc to boot!
( salty asks! )
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