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midethefangirl · 9 months

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it’s been long since I made a pro Tony Stark post but seeing someone try to blame the events of Civil War going south on him had me heated. look, I will admit that some of Tony’s actions in the movie where not okay at all like wanting to kill Bucky for killing his mother while under HYDRA’s influence but maybe Steve stans and a lot of pro team cap folks should realize that Steve’s actions also played a huge role in the movie as well.

for one, maybe Steve should have realized that 119 countries banding together to make a document, you feel is threatening your rights, is a serious matter. 119 countries is almost two-thirds of the countries in the UN and the world, if a great part of the world thinks you are doing more harm than good, maybe as a superhero, you should try to reason with them.

two, Steve chose to do nothing when he thought his rights were threatened by the accords. I do think there were some human rights violations in the accords that should not have been avoided, however, Steve chose to do nothing. anyone who has done a bit of activism know how ineffective that strategy is.

three, Steve’s actions were proving to the UN even more reasons why they felt the accords were necessary. interfering with law enforcement when they were out for Bucky who was potentially dangerous was a bad idea. sure, Bucky was his best friend and I don’t blame Steve for wanting to save him. however, let us remember that Bucky had killed people while he was the Winter Soldier and the Romanian government didn’t have the perspective we have and they had every reason to see him as a huge threat.

four, infantilizing Wanda by calling her a kid because Tony decided to put her on house arrest. and yes, I agree that Tony not telling Wanda was a very bad idea but let us not forget that the Avengers were still under public scrutiny after a disaster of a mission in Lagos and the accords. Wanda could have been attacked by outsiders who could have gone the Zemo route because a family member was in Lagos and that would have caused her to try to defend herself which could get twisted by the media and turn more of the public against her and the avengers as a whole. mind you, the Avengers were facing enough mistrust from the public.

also, Steve, calling a huge comfortable compound with a swimming pool an internment is a bit tonedeaf to those whose ancestors have been to actual interments. as someone who had an Asian American on his team, I’d expect he know better.

five, accords or not, maybe the Russian government has the right to know about a man controlling dangerously brainwashed men within their country. sure, it latter turned out to be a false alarm but considering the fact that this was a security threat which many countries would take seriously, Steve for some reason never considered the fact that the Russian government should be alerted to something like that. if this didn’t scream arrogance, I don’t know what else did.

six, resisting arrest and trashing public property while on international borders in the bid of resisting arrest would piss off the very people who are already pissed at you and your American passport would not bail you out of that one. even international passports come with a warning about their holders committing a crime in other countries. the fact that Steve acknowledged that his team could get arrested for that made it even worse.

this one is actually addressed to the whole of team cap, not just Steve, but seven, you cannot commit a crime on international soil with full knowledge that it is a crime and then blame somebody else for why you ended up in jail. sure, the rift and Thaddeus Ross are sketchy in nature but Scott and Clint blaming Tony for why they ended up there was funny to me because they made the informed decision to commit a crime.

eight, which is a major part being that it was the climax of Civil War, hmmm, maybe keeping the secret of the death of the parents of your rich teammate whose money was funding the search of their killer from him is a very bad idea. idk, man, I would be angry too if it were me. sure, wanting to kill Bucky was wrong but if we didn’t fault the Mayonnaise twins, T’Challa, Peter Parker and later Shuri for going after their parents’ (perceived, in T’Challa’s case) killers, maybe we could give Tony too some grace because brainwashed or not, I would have gone after Bucky too.

nine, the apology letter was the shittiest letter ever and I don’t blame Tony for not wanting to speak to Steve during the events of Infinity War. like how can you even write that type of letter to someone you offended and expect the relationship to still be intact?

there was one part I almost forgot but that quote that emboldened Steve is also dumb the more I look at it. oh yeah, plant yourself in front of the 119 countries you didn’t even bother to address at all and tell them “no, you move” is the ultimate height of hubris. when you are already on thin ice with the public? and Steve thought this was a good idea? yikes 😬

#pro tony stark #tony stark defense squad #steve rogers critical #i’m still bitter about civil war #the more i look at it the more i hate it #and yeah i agree that the accords had their own problems too so i am not fully on board with them #but this post is less about the accords and more about steve’s response #the part that had me angry the most is the “plant yourself like a tree as say you move” quote #like my brother in christ #you didn’t even bother to address these countries in the first place #y’all didn’t even bother to have a word with the public and this is the route you want to take?!#now that im thinking about it #this is arrogance at its height #what was steve thinking when he decided to roll along with this quote?#if civil war was trying to get me to support team cap they failed woefully at that #one part was from having steve acting like this.#the fact that even chris evans was not on steve’s side should say something

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calliope-saga · 2 years

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Can i please have some legitimate criticism of steve rogers

So I’ve been scrolling in the anti steve rogers tag (I know, I know--maybe my first mistake) for a project I’ve been thinking about (fixing the MCU), as I needed some good flaws to give the character a titch more nuance and the wiki wasn’t being very helpful. I’ve noticed that a lot of the time, antis--even if I don’t agree with them--have very well-thought out points with evidence from canon and long explanations. That’s what I thought I’d be getting. But I didn’t.

Most of the posts in this tag are along the typical anti lines: “I don’t like this character because XYZ.” But I noticed two things. First, there’s almost never any evidence for these claims. A poster will claim that Steve is entitled or selfish, and that’s just the end of the post. WHY is he selfish? What, specifically, can you point to in canon that supports that? Because I need something like that, and if you can point me to a scene that supports your point, I’d love to hear it--like I said, I need it!

Secondly, a ton of the criticism of Steve is very tied up in other characters. It’s not that these posters are talking about Steve’s character and his flaws and actions as it relates to him--it’s all “he treated Tony bad!” and “he left Bucky behind!” Like, my guy, Steve isn’t just his relationship to these two characters. He has a personality that is separate from them.

I get that a lot of the time, character relationships and interactions inform a character’s personality, but it’s always these two characters. And a lot of the time, it’s pretty clear that, reading between the lines, the people who are bringing up these same two characters are stucky fans or tony fans. So it seems less like a criticism in good faith and more like stans that are getting mad that their fave isn’t being treated as well as they’d like. More character relationships would be beneficial. How does Steve treat the Howling Commandos? Team Cap? Wanda, Sam, Clint, Peggy, Natasha--all of those characters inform Steve’s character just as much as Tony and Bucky do, and I haven’t seen people talking about them.

I’m not here to just complain about people treating Steve badly--I went to the anti steve rogers tag, I knew what I was signing up for. I’m here for a call to action--does anyone who might see this have any good faith criticism and/or some better tags for me to explore?

#mcu #criticism #steve rogers critical #anti steve rogers #should i tag that?#i want people who don't like him #i like him #i have that pov and i want another #steve rogers #captain america #trying to cover my bases #i need ppl to see this lol

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notoyax17 · 2 years

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Captain America and the double-edge blade of “Context” from the outside perspective.

So... here’s the thing. The MCU, being a movie, allows us to have and add the context of Steve’s thoughts and beliefs to his actions. The framing of the movies and plot tell us to believe that Steve is “the good, moral man.”

But this is just telling us what Steve believes and what the writers believe. Anyone that’s consumed media can tell you that it’s really really easy for writers/directors to accidentally portray their characters in a way that sends a message that they hadn’t intended on.

And the message that they accidentally conveyed? Steve may unknowingly be a Hydra sympathizer or a fascist sympathizer.

(Not a Nazi sympathizer, which is...close, but specifically a Hydra one.)

That’s sounds horrible, right? Super way off base?

And it IS. That’s kinda my point. They didn’t mean to make it seem like that, but in universe, it would be stupidly easy for any journalist to make that case, regardless of whether or not it’s true.

PEGGY CARTER

Steve’s first love was Peggy Carter. Steve and Peggy are actually strikingly similar to each other, disenfranchised (due to health issues/stature and gender, respectively) trying to prove themselves and needing power to do so. They are both very quick to disregard the law, up to and including committing treason, when convenient to pursue their goals.

It’s important to note that it’s to pursue their goals, rather than just saying to do what’s “right.” Steve committed treason in his multiple attempts to join the army when actually being allowed to do so would have only gotten him and anyone trying to defend him killed. He didn’t need to join the war to help with the war effort. It’s just wanted he wanted for himself (Bucky - “Sure, because you’ve got nothing to prove...”). Peggy, despite no evidence and Howard Stark being her “friend”, decided that Howard intended to use Steve’s blood for nefarious purposes, so she stole the vial, which IIRC was part of government research since SI is a military contractor, and destroyed without so much as talking to him about it first. Supposedly because she didn’t want Howard to profit off of it, never mind any ways that those samples could have help the medical field or the army.

They would both go on to lead their own Stark funded organizations - SHIELD and the Avengers.

Which leads to the next big issue. A desire to have or retain power.

SHIELD should be self-explanatory. Needing their fingers in every pie, secretive, breaking laws left and right to get things done, monitoring and capturing enhanced if they don’t work for SHIELD, etc. SHIELD’s policy’s reflect Peggy Carter’s desire for control of as much as she could get her hands on. There is no reason for SHIELD’s existence outside of not trusting anyone else to get the job done “right” and her distaste for the lack of trust/respect that she got from others in the spy/government community.

Steve ran into the same problem with the Avengers, the unwillingness to let go of his own complete control over the team once the accords came calling. There is something to be said that, of all the people in that initial meeting, the ones considered most intelligent (a super spy, a literal rocket scientist, a genius engineer/most prolific CEO in the world outside of Pepper Potts, an android with the entire wealth of knowledge on the internet at his fingertips) all agreed on signing the accords.

He turns them down but when given the option again, in order to avoid the first sign of real consequences for his actions coming down on his head, he nearly takes it. He only turns it down based on a weak excuse (Wanda’s “internment” in the sprawling compound. He fought in WWII. He should know what real internment is. Tony’s baffled response about her basically being “grounded” makes more sense than internment considering the size and amenities of the compound, Vision’s presence and the fact that the team frequently refers to her as a kid), escapes the moment he has a chance and continues on.

Which brings us to the next point, and also something Steve and Peggy have in common.

WANDA and ZOLA

This is actually where the real issues start.

Both Peggy and Steve recruited a known Hydra agent into their ranks with minimal to no real oversight.

SHIELD has a habit of recruiting people based on their “usefulness” rather than their belief in the cause or their goodness of character (I could go on a long rant about SHIELD’s really shitty record when it comes to asset management, but that’s something for another day).

They both trusted their own judgement on these people. Their trusted their own judgement on their new charge’s character, on their ability to handle or control them, etc. And neither are the types to actually fully acknowledge being wrong, as stubborn as they are.

So, despite committing outright atrocities (Zola was experimenting on soldiers in Austria - Bucky happened to be one of the few/the only one to survive that. Wanda unleashed the Hulk on Johannesburg just a day or so before), both were welcomed into the ranks with the slate wiped clean. Zola allowed enough freedom to work directly with Howard Stark and to make something that allowed him to upload his mind onto a computer. Wanda was running missions with Steve, against Hydra, despite being “untrained.”

And, of course, the moment those two were not looking, the world was visibly paying for it - Zola’s Hydra infiltrating SHIELD and the Winter Soldier’s missions, Wanda’s entire thing in WandaVision.

Apparently, fucking half of SHIELD turned out to be Hydra. That’s... that’s honestly an appalling level of incompetence for the so called spies of spies to have missed that, okay.

There is also Steve’s immediate sympathy towards the Maximoff twins in AOU. Something that Maria Hill herself notes as kind of off base, even if she doesn’t make a big deal about it.

Steve, of all people, shouldn’t be sympathizing with twins’ joining Hydra to supposedly protect their country. Not less than one year after the clusterfuck in DC. He should be baffled. He should be shaking his head at people that would compromise themselves in that way.

He should NOT be looking at a pair of willing Hydra agents and seeing himself in them.

(There was no coercion there, they were not tricked. Wanda can read minds and... you know, they were sent after the Avengers.)

(I remember that conversation, that moment, being when the Shine of Captain America, who I had loved in TFA and TWS, started to wear off, and it just got worst as the movie went on.)

And then, Steve, the enemy of Hydra, takes the word of these actual Hydra agents who tried to kill their team yesterday over that of his own team and attacks them when they are in the process of creating Vision.

With no proof outside of Wanda’s word. The word of someone that has no problem admitting that she hates Tony Stark (and would thus have a motivation to lie to turn his team against him). The word of someone that unleased the Hulk on hundreds of innocent people - made worse by the fact that she likely didn’t know about the Hulkbuster armor.

But it’s okay, because Steve trusts her and she totally helped them out in a crunch! (To save her own life and the country she supposedly loves. But not to save South Africa or Seoul, because fuck ‘em, right?)

Steve also, in hiding the truth of the Stark’s deaths to protect Bucky, protected the Hydra agents that ordered the hit in the first place.

And lastly, he returns to live out his life in the past (disregarding all the warnings of not doing shit like that). Steve returns to the past and, despite being the touted enemy of Hydra, presumably ignores the decades of atrocities (against the world, against two supposedly close friends, against SHIELD) that they would go on to commit. He lived and slept peacefully despite knowing full well that Bucky was being tortured. He turned a blind eye to the death of a man he once called a friend, the corruption of his company and near murder of his son. He allowed his girlfriend/wife’s life work to be corrupted by Hydra and didn’t say a word.

STEVE’S FRIENDS (AND THE PEOPLE HE WORKED WITH)

This is the last point. It’s not as damning, but it’s... an itch.

There’s Bucky Barnes - unwilling Hydra agent. He has minimal to no real culpability for his crimes considering all of the brainwashing. It’s more that having your girlfriend and your best friend both have ties to Hydra is pretty awkward.

The STRIKE team. Steve spent somewhere between 1-2 years on a team comprised solely of Hydra agents with the occasional Natasha as his team. While not buddy-buddy (which he wasn’t with anyone at this time), he was friendly with them. They were his colleagues for almost around/longer than the Howling Commandoes were. There is a strong chance that they had some influence on him. You don’t spend that much time with people and pick up nothing from them.

Natasha. For better or for worse, Natasha is a former Russian Red Room (partnered with Hydra) agent that defected to become a SHIELD (partnered/influenced by Hydra) agent that is well known for being duplicitous as a habit and job. One who then compromised the entire US government and its relationships with other countries by dumping all of SHIELD’s secrets (and the secrets they had on other countries, no doubt) online. And of all the people that Steve could have trusted/gone to, he chose her. Whether this was good or bad is irrelevant. My point is that it looks bad.

Sam. (I love Sam and Anthony Mackie, he was the best part of that movie outside of the fight scenes, honestly.) Steve had known Sam for all of three days before going to him for help with defeating Hydra. He just so happened to have the file on the Falcon wings in his home for reasons. And casually agrees with committing treason alongside these two (in stealing the wings and everything else that happened in that movie). Sam could have been a Hydra plant (just as Sharon was a SHIELD plant) sent to watch him. He didn’t know who to trust but called on Sam of all people, assuming he had no ulterior motives.

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As an aside and final note, Steve’s ability to shift and eventually wield Mjölnir is touted as an undeniably “proof” of Steve’s goodness, which... it’s blatantly not in a way that’s baffling.

Setting aside Thor’s genocidal past (since the spell was placed after that), both Odin and Hela are capable of wielding the Hammer. Hela is...well, still entirely genocidal. Odin’s arc in his movies are mostly about his lies to his sons coming to light, his own genocidal past, and him considering humans to be like lowly animals and Jotun to be monsters.

Being “worthy” is a nebulous concept. Is it being a good person? Is it being worthy of holding the throne of Asgard (a notably warrior/blood-thirsty race of aliens)? Is it being similar to Odin (a list of traits that Odin specifically wanted in his son, for good or ill)? We don’t know!

Remember, despite Vision being the first of the team outside of Thor to fully lift Mjölnir, his opinions on what the “right” thing to do have little to no weight in the next movie.

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“Good becomes better and bad becomes worse,” is the saying for the Super Soldier serum. Abraham Erskine offered the serum to Steve because he wanted a “good man” who could become a better man. After all, look at what happened with The Red Skull.

But... that’s a sample size of one.

So, how does Erskine know that that’s the case?

Or that it’s mutually exclusive.

What if good becomes better and bad becomes worse? What if both the good traits and the bad ones are amplified? What if Steve’s good traits were amplified enough for him to not go all in on the evil side but his bad traits (stubbornness, need to prove himself/be important/have control, his lying to suit his needs, etc) are also increased, leading to string of bad decisions that are worsened by the fact that almost no one actually takes him to task until really late in the game as a result of decades of propaganda?

What if Steve is only considered a Good Man because the writers/story say he is?

#MCU meta #steve rogers critical #peggy carter critical #but not really bashing either #steve rogers #peggy carter #wanda maximoff #arnim zola #hydra #My posts

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armoured-iron-geek · 2 years

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It's been two years and I am still baffled at the fuckery that was the character arc of Steve Rogers....What exactly was accomplished with him?

That is a genuine question, by the way. I'm actually interested in your answers.

I had the idea that the direction of his arc was Steve learning to move on and embrace the chance he's been given in his new life. Maybe he would become the next Nick Fury-type that took in potential Avengers that reminded him of how the pre-serum Steve used to be. Full of determination and not aware of their own inner-strength.

Nope.

Everything he ever did involved looking back. His unending loyalty to Bucky (not a bad thing btw....to an extent), looking for Howard Stark in Tony, obsessing over Peggy, refusing to let go of his 40's world-view when it comes to modern bureaucracy and politics and compromising every now and again.

If I ever hear that tree metaphor again, I'll set that tree on fire.

I feel like the Russos were so busy focusing on giving Steve the most perfect, happy-ending in Endgame, they forgot that Peggy Carter had accomplished what Steve had failed miserably to do: Process her grief, moved on and created a good life by finding love with someone else.

There is nothing Steve did that justified him erasing the life Peggy was supposed to have.

Were the Russos trying to say that after so many years of Steve being selfless, he was finally allowing himself to be selfish to accomplish happiness?

Sorry, but that's bullshit.....Unearned bullshit.

#avengers endgame #steve rogers #steve rogers critical #i am so confused #what was the point #mcu #marvel

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gonnadosomethingwmylife · 3 years

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The MCU has made a lot of interesting decisions, but deciding that Captain America would cover up the assassination of his teammate’s parents by a Nazi organization for years is definitely up there

#mcu critical #steve rogers critical #only mcu tho #I swear I enjoy this franchise #but you want to talk character assassination???#because that’s what that was #616 steve i’m so sorry they did that to you u would never #mcu Steve deserves to make mistakes like Tony but I really wish that hadn’t been it #like if it had just been a mercenary hit or something #but no it was a Nazi assassination and they really went ‘oh yeah Steve would definitely hide this w no remorse’??????#why is tony stark allowed to be fleshed out so well after making worse mistakes but Steve comes of as like #a psychopath in that situation #they had this man look at Tony as he’s breaking down and shows zero empathy???#not to mention a betrayal like that is something 616 Tony would do-not Steve???#i say that with love #but it’s true #Plus it’s ours any 2012 Avenger era family tower fic that takes place after winter soldier #how am I supposed to enjoy them knowing Steve is acting like a snake????#fuck the mcu #with love #but they ruined my found family #like we’re already OK with them being murderers but a PERSONAL betrayal???#One that goes against the character’s fundamental morals???#(bc again-Nazis and CA)#just doesn’t sit right #steve rogers #i love u but that was fucked and you were done wrong by mcu i’m sorry my guy #reminiscing about Civil War lol

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canonicallysoulmates · 3 years

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My mom thinks Steve just dropped dead on the bench after Endgame and quite frankly the thought is so funny I'm just gonna tell people that's what happened 😂

#this isn't really critical but i'm gonna tag it just in case #steve rogers critical #non spn #mcu related #mine #random mcu thing is random

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sea-owl · 3 years

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So I started reading Captian America comics mainly because of others saying that Steve in comics is better than MCU Steve and I was tired of yelling at MCU Steve.

I'm still yelling at 616 Steve. I love Ults Steve, love AA Steve, like 1872 Steve just fine. Early 616 Steve seems ok right now too.

I know why I constantly yell at MCU/616 Steve as well. I'm critical of 3 main reasons. His being the personified underdog, despite clearly being at top so often now, and the trope of the underdog does not fail that goes with it. This trope has truly sucked out any loss or consequences for Steve's actions. Even when Steve loses it's framed as a win, or he has lost/sacraficed nothing. His stubbornness is another thing, now most I don't mind it. But when his stubbornness and often pride gets in the way of a situation that actually needs compromise on, that's an issue. It's an issue that isn't discussed much or framed that he is in right, and that leads me to the top reason I yell at Steve.

His moral high horse. Steve is very often framed to be in the right or he thinks he is. And due to his reputation he is often unquestioned or challenged. Even when Steve deserves to be blamed and be held accountable as well he's not, and it's so often framed this way. If he apologizes for something he's done it's short, to the point. While the other character is left to go on a tangent for their apology and the next few issues that other character is stilling getting blame for the same thing while Steve is whistling show tunes.

Early 616 Steve doesn't seem to have this issue yet, which is refreshing. Ults doesn't hide Steve behind a moral high horse like 616 and MCU, which is very refreshing and probably why I got a little attached. AA and EMH don't hide him behind this either but it just might be toned down for kid's showes.

Now don't get me wrong I do like Steve, but I think he works a lot better when he has someone to play off of, or in a group dynamic like the Avengers where someone will call him out on his shit. Often it is Tony, those two play marvelous off of one another, but at this point I believe that's what everyone in universe and out of kind of expects. They expect Tony to be the one to put Steve in check when he needs it and vice versa. They're an iconic duo all through out the multiverse.

I don't know maybe I like fandom Steve the best. Especially since they've been able to update his character in a way that Marvel has yet too.

#perfect #steve rogers #marvel #captain america #steve rogers critical #steve rogers across the multiverse #avengers #i still love steve #still in my top ten #but i would not lie and say that if steve got on my ass like he does with some people i would not hesitate to throw hands #steve's character i feel like needs an update #at the very least let him fail and mo longer be #give steve rogers consequences 2021

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kahuna-burger · 3 years

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My first fill for this round of @tonystarkbingo . Not the most productive time of year for a retail worker, but it also finished one of my WIPs, so all to the good!

Title: You don't change horses midstream. (Chapter 4 of There's No Oscar for Producing)

https://archiveofourown.org/works/23354044/chapters/68769783#workskin

Card Number: 4094

Square Filled: R4 I regret nothing

Ship/Main Pairing: gen

Rating: teen

Major Tags/Warnings: Major Character Death, Infinity War AU, Steve Rogers critical

Summary: Everything comes together for Steve's perfect ending.

#tonystarkbingomarkiv #fic #team iron man #steve rogers critical #unreliable narrator

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ad1thi · 4 years

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you can be a steve rogers stan while also acknowledging that the idea that the only way steve could help in the war effort was by fighting is inherently rooted in the toxic belief that strength in an assessor in one’s masculinity. the two are not mutually exclusive.

#adi gives gyaan #steve rogers critical #steve's character is inherently rooted in the idea that he is selfless #because he risked his life to get a serum that makes him strong #that perpetuates dangerous ideals about men and what it means to be masculine #you can acknowledge this and still be a steve stan #it doesn't take away from the rest of steve's character #but there is smth dangerous in the suggestion that steve can only be useful if he's got muscles for days

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moontheoretist · 2 months

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Rhodey gave him a searching look. “Come on, Tony. What’s up? You’re not reacting the way I would expect you to be. Your dad looked for Captain America for decades and now you’ve found him and he’s alive. Why aren’t you over the moon about this?” “Who says I’m not?” “The expression on your face, for one. You look like you’ve gone and found your worst nightmare.” Tony considered how to respond to that in a way that didn’t betray himself. “For that exact reason,” Tony said finally. “It would be one thing if he were dead. I’d have bested my dad and given a hero the homecoming he deserved. That would be easy. But now I’m face to face with the ghost that I’ve spent years blaming for my dad’s decisions. How is that fair to Rogers? He deserves better than my resentment. I don’t know if I’m a good enough man for that.” Steve was innocent. Innocent of Howard’s choices. Innocent of the choices Tony remembered from the future that had had helped cause such a deep divide—one that had possibly been responsible for the fate of the whole universe—between the two of them. His mom.

Rhodey’s face softened. “Tony—“ “I mean, he’s human just like me and you and hell, the whole world, and I’m sure he’s nothing like the paragon of virtue that my father was so certain he was. But hell, part of me hates the man and that’s not fair.” “You know, you’re a private citizen. You don’t have to—“ Tony didn’t wait for him to finish. “Come on, would you trust the government with the defrosting and acclimatization of a national hero?” Tony asked, giving Rhodey his most skeptical look. “You think they’d care about Rogers beyond the status that it’d give them to have returned a national icon to the world?” Rhodey looked like he wasn’t sure what to say to that. But then, Rhodey was military, and high-ranking at that, that required a certain amount of trust in the government he served. “Hell, Rogers wasn’t even really army,” Tony pointed out. “He was SSR, which is basically SHIELD. Imagine if the government turned Rogers over to them? They have a good claim to him, if they really wanted him. Which trust me, they would. Powered people are sort of their thing. Controlling powered people even more so.” Real distaste crossed Rhodey’s face at that. “Yeah, no.” He said, voice a low and vicious. “That’s not happening.”

“Right?” Tong asked rhetorically. “A disaster in the making. I wouldn’t give my worst enemy to SHIELD when they’re that vulnerable. I didn’t even let them keep Vanko, and that guy tried to first murder a bunch of people with his powered up whips and when that didn’t work tried to blow up both me and a bunch of other people.” He paused. “Not that that did Vanko any good when he got sniped.” Probably for real, based off what he and JARVIS had found. Tony was still waiting on the other foot to drop. “Right, so no giving Rogers to the government because then he’ll end up with SHIELD which is a no go.” “And do you trust anyone else to actually keep this quiet? Hell, what sort of homecoming is that. ‘Hey, you just woke up after 70 years on the ice. Everyone you love is dead or has moved on. But hey, let us make a production of your return, because nothing says welcome to the future like being a dancing money again’.” Rhodey frowned. “Kind of cynical, don’t you think?” “Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me they wouldn’t care more about Captain America than they would about Steve Rogers. Tell me they’d look past the legend to see a man as human and as vulnerable as all the rest of us.” Rhodey hesitated. “I’m just saying. You can keep your distance. Get him a therapist, provide him somewhere safe. No one is saying you need to move him in and hold his hand through the transition.” Tony nodded, even if he had trouble believing it. “I know.” It just felt like abandonment. Tony didn’t understand being 70 years in the future, alone and lost and used as a tool and a weapon by the very people who’d found him and given him the closest thing he had to a home. The thing was, no one else did either. At this moment, he might be one of the few people who cared about Steve Rogers more than he did about Captain America. Which really threw into focus how depressing Steve Rogers’ situation was given Tony’s remarkably complicated feelings on the matter. Hell, he needed to find Steve a therapist.

~ The One to Bet On by airas_story

To be honest, I agree with all of this. No matter how much I show my very visceral displeasure with Steve, I can't really say that he was at fault for his behavior towards Tony. At least not entirely. When you look at the scene when Steve mentions "the footage" it sounds sus. SHIELD was shady even without HYDRA, so imagine what could have happened. His behavior could be HYDRA's plan all along, or it could simply be SHIELD trying to put Tony in check via someone who would be his leader. Steve having bad opinion of Tony with Tony's very well known inferiority complex of Steve specifically (which is not ever mentioned in the movies out loud, but exists somewhere in the text of those movies enough to make so many of people in fandom see it and write about it) that Howard most probably put there was a perfect recipe to make Tony's daddy issues extended to Steve by some master manipulation. Tony, no matter how resentful of Steve, wanted Steve to approve of him, just like he wanted his father to approve of him. And that was a recipe for disaster when SHIELD caught up on that and did all in their power to make Steve have the worst opinion of Tony, while still making it workable for the team. Steve's relationship with Tony is rocky because of that first introduction. Because he saw him as an enemy first, then came to respect him for his sacrifice during Battle of New York and then witnessed Tony make a mistake (that was not truly his mistake because Mind Stone was a fucking sentient rock that was the true villain in that goddamn movie I tell you) that made him realize Tony isn't to be trusted once again and come back to square one.

Steve may have personality quirks that I dislike (mostly because they remind me about the brainwashing that my own people go through with all this martyrology we are fed at school), which his movie shows to us all, but in the end those quirks are human. They don't make him a monster. They however though also end up being the reason behind all of his atrocious behaviors in MCU. SHIELD extorted that fact to their own advantage. Just look at how Nick Fury ALWAYS met with Tony in secret. Never making it clear to others in the team that he trusts Tony to do things right, always pushing him from the shadows as if Tony was the leader of the Avengers and not Steve, while at the same time never acknowledging Tony in any significant way. Always keeping his faith in Tony's capabilities a secret from everybody in order to not give the team an impression that they can actually trust him.

At the end there in Civil War you sometimes get the impression that Steve is fighting Tony as if he was fighting Red Skull and not a friend, and the people to blame for that are SHIELD and Steve's extortable personality that is very easy to manipulate even when he is not in the vulnerable position due to just being defrosted in the future and experiencing a total shock (just ask Erskine how he played Steve like a fiddle after eveasdropping on his convo with Bucky - that doctor is so sus in that movie I tell you). Not to mention Steve's paranoia about losing Bucky that is very much SHIELD's fault as well. Unless of course HYDRA put their fingers into this too. Steve not being adjusted to 21st century, his longing for the past, his mistrust of futurists like Tony who embody every of his fears, it all stems from SHIELD's negligence / manipulation and possibly from HYDRA's medling too. You could say that they played Steve like a fiddle too. Because all his bad personality traits from his first movie: obsession about being the soldier above all else, self-righteousness that borders on callousness and grotesque lack of self-awareness, bravado that ends with him trying to punch through every problem he has (to Bucky's utter exasperation) and his dislike of being paraded on as a dance monkey coupled with lack of trust in chain-of-command. All of that used to SHIELD's advantage and adding the existence of HYDRA in SHIELD (the only place that Steve could call his in the future) give you the Steve Rogers we know today: the one who never acclimated to the future to the point of lacking insight into political and law matters and losing it even more when the only organisation he somewhat trusted turned to be infested with Hydra from top to bottom. A vulnerable man missing people he loved so much that he would go against the entire world and lie to people he is supposedly friends with in order to save them. A man who was an ideal prey for SHIELD and HYDRA both which led to the tragic breakdown of the Avengers and the failure to stop Thanos. A man, who despite obsessively chasing after Bucky and trying to protect him, only saw him as a link to the past (especially after Peggy died at the start of Civil War and he was truly left alone), whom he also later abandoned at the first opportunity (which hurts like a bitch, I may hate Steve sometimes but this? This is blasphemy), leaving that very friend for the lady that he may or may have not build a happy ending in the past if he made it back from that mission. All because he never was given a proper treatment. All because he never went to therapy, never learned how to move on from the past in a healthy way.

That is also funnily the difference between Avengers Assemble Steve and MCU Steve. AA Steve was given a chance to adjust to the future. Hell, Tony was the one who helped him to do that. It may sound like a small thing, but with Steve accepting that past is the past and now is now, you get a completely different person. Person who is not chasing after the past. Person who tries to learn and adjust to their new reality. A person who tries to keep meaningful connections he created in their new life and doesn't abandon them for the past, even when that past shows up in the future as well. Even when they get an opportunity to jump ship and come back in time. MCU Steve DESPERATELY needs that. He desperately need to move on and accept his new reality. He needs to create strong relationships in the future that he won't be able to simply abandon at the first opportunity to come back in time. MCU Steve needs to learn that past is the past and his new life in the future is what is ultimately better for him than the past he has lost.

#mcu fanfiction #steve rogers critical #mcu critical

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midethefangirl · 2 years

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It’s funny how the antis blame Tony for “sending his friends to the Raft” like…bestie he was trying so hard to prevent that from even happening in the first place 💀 they literally CHOSE to not show up for Vienna and break international border laws like what were they actually expecting?

exactly! tony literally offers to intercept team cap because he knows it is either he does it or it is a bunch of soldiers who would not hesitate to spray bullets at them should they resist. in addition, team cap is full of adults who chose to break the law by violating international boundaries (even steve warns them that they are on the wrong side of the law should they follow him and they proceeded to follow him; and yes, wanda is an adult. if y’all also want to bitch at tony for bringing in a 14-year-old to web up team cap, i hope y’all extend the grace towards steve for bringing in a “kid” for that mission in lagos).

let us not even consider the accords at all in this case because i doubt they had been made into law (or whatever international bills become) due to the bombing of the un quarters, they were aiding a wanted man (innocent or not, you can be arrested for just that; and the government did have reasons to be scared of bucky given his history as the winter soldier) and they were illegally crossing borders to do just that.

that’s why i find it funny to see team cap stans, clint and scott bitching at tony for “throwing” them into the raft. like, my family in christ, y’all are there because you knowingly violated international boundaries 💀.

p.s: this is not a post arguing about the morality of the raft or the accords, go do that shit else where. my point is you cannot break the law while fully aware of what could happen and then blame others when the consequences smack you right in the fucking face.

#anti team cap #steve rogers critical #team cap critical #pro tony stark #you cannot willingly break international laws with full awareness of the consequences and blame others when you reap said consequences #i said what i said

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aelaer · 4 years

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[1/2] Now this is an actual ask as in asking for help. 👀 I have a problem with Steve and Tony. I spent too much time too early on reading anti/not-friendly post-CW fics about 'Team Cap', and because of that I have been unable to see Tony as a flawed human or Steve as a good person. It's a pattern I've become too familiar with, and even recent stories are often going into that sense. I have been trying for some time now to do something about it, but either the method was bad, or I couldn't

(I tagged a couple people in this post – if you were tagged, the question directed to you is wayyyy at the bottom! Feel free to ignore of course.)

You really hit me with a doozy with this ask. I might offend someone for not thinking the exact same way as them with… everything this topic entails… Steve, Tony, anti-fics. Followers from last year know what happened last time I talked about poor and OOC characterization in fanfic, lmao. Beware The Easily Offended! This Is A Critical Thinking Of Your Hobby Zone! I Am Being Critical Of Specific Types of MCU Fanfic!

Please don’t click the read more button if you can’t handle an opinion that might not match yours. Really. I’m fine with discussing different opinions in a mature manner but if you have issues with people saying they don’t like a specific type of plot, this post is not for you. (The read more button doesn’t appear on the original post for followers using the mobile app, but it works on desktop and in all reblogs. If you don’t see a cut and don’t want to read, just skip it, please).

Yeah. Okay. Moving on. Can’t say folks weren’t warned.

I’ve had this in my drafts for several weeks because of the abuse I got the last time I wrote something critical about certain plot points used in fanfic. I was definitely a bit reluctant to look at this specific topic from an analytical and critical look as I remembered that, but hey, it’s really easy for a coward to use a sockpuppet account and throw abuse. It’s harder to be a minority voice with stark opinions contrasting the popular trend. I’m okay with having a minority opinion amongst the MCU fandom.

(PS - you’re welcome to disagree with my opinions, so long as you’re respectful about it. Remember there are individuals behind the screens!)

Concerning Character Flaws

So the thing about really well-written characters is that they are flawed in some manner. Anyone who thinks Tony or Steve exist without flaws – and I mean real flaws, like arrogance, believing they’re always right, short tempers, and other *real* character flaws that both of these characters have – well, if they don’t think they exist with these flaws, how well do they know the character?

You don’t have to know a character well to be a fan of said character – there’s no rules about that – but if you’re going to write fanfic, and that fanfic entails the character you love against a character you don’t particularly like, I’d say any writer looking to do anything resembling a good job would do their due diligence in figuring out the strengths and weaknesses of both characters before writing the characters themselves. These mental lists of characteristics should be equal for both characters. No, “good abs” is not a character strength if you have no physical aspects in the other character strength column. You don’t have to like a character to still write them well.

Even professionals don’t follow this rule when, say, shows get new writers or comics get different writers, so you might consider me silly expecting those dabbling in fan fiction. But yeah, if an author wants me to take a story seriously as something with quality, I expect the characters to resemble themselves in some manner.

(This level of resemblance varies when you purposefully choose for the protagonist to be evil, be in a completely different time period, etc, but authors who do this *well* still get core personality traits solid, even if morality is out the window or the profession is entirely different. I have a lot of examples from the Sherlock fandom of total AUs that pull this off well – haven’t read nearly enough AUs in the MCU to have a good collection here).

But a resemblance of character, of capturing the three-dimensionality of a character, is what anti-fics simply fail to achieve. The characters they’re anti against usually suffer cases of Flanderization, if they’re not completely out of character altogether in showing traits that were never displayed in the canon, ever. I don’t know why anyone would be interested in such stories, myself, and remain baffled at their popularity. Is there some sort of enjoyment in seeing such a 2D rendition of a character in what is otherwise meant as a serious work and provides absolutely no sense of proper conflict between two characters? Not for me; it immediately takes me out of the story and when it gets too much, I abandon the story. It’s just not enjoyable for me. Turning a canon protagonist into a strawman is just lazy writing and offers nothing to the writer’s favorite, preferred character.

Concerning Steve’s and Tony’s Flaws

Every real human being has some sort of personality flaw that is decidedly unattractive. Some people are really good at showing it very rarely (and are some of the best human beings), but with these two characters we see them at their greatest heights and lowest of lows. Ironically, they actually share a lot of the same flaws, but display them in different manners in canon:

Both men believe they are the best man for the job and will do it without consulting someone who could actually fight against it - or go completely against them. Tony with Ultron is the easy example here. He’s the smartest man in the world and can tackle the issue of protecting it on its own. Steve, same issue, and his job is “helping Bucky”. *He’s* the one who can handle Bucky, the only one who can handle him - big thing in both WS and CW. If both of them had utilized their friends and allies a lot more, a lot of issues could have been avoided.

Both men are sometimes hypocritical. Steve promotes teamwork in all his speeches but again with the Bucky situation. Just… everything Bucky, man. Tony signs the Accords and immediately goes against them with what he gives to Peter, who most assuredly did not sign them (tangent: if he HAD joined the Avengers at the end of Homecoming, I have no idea how that would have gone since Peter would have had to reveal his identity to the UN and then there’s the whole ‘still a minor’ thing, and yeah, Homecoming’s end scene just makes me go nuts). But anyway, their occasional hypocrisy is one of the most realistic aspects of them because most human beings are hypocritical sometimes.

Both men are sometimes arrogant. Tony’s self-explanatory with his genius-playboy-philanthropist-billionaire. One thing he does not suffer from is low self-esteem in regards to his abilities. His arrogance comes from his genius. Steve’s arrogance lies more in his deep-seeded belief that he is on the moral high ground – and one reason I think a lot of people dislike him so much, because moral superiority is very much a faux pas in this day and age for some millennials and many Gen Z folk. He has a very, very solid sense of what is right and what is wrong, and that rubs some folks the wrong way. Tony is more morally fluid – but he is not by any means immoral.

Both of them have a really solid list of strengths as well. As this ask specifically is looking to find the good in Steve, I specifically Googled pro-Steve articles for you to click at your leisure (and one with both). If you need to go back to canon, I highly recommend rewatching The First Avenger and The Winter Soldier, which introduces Steve brilliantly and then lets Steve grow further in the second film.

(Note: I actually prefer Tony to Steve in terms of personal favoritism, but how a very loud segment of Tony fans have treated other characters has led me to be more vocal about the strengths of others, especially Steve and Wanda. So Tony might be in my top 5, but mean-spirited Tony fans have moved me to be a champion of other characters, if only to show other fans that there are indeed Tony fans that do like the other characters and treat them – and their fans – with respect).

Bringing Balance (to the Universe…) Fanfic-Style

This addresses the second part of your ask in regards to the fanfics. And this is where I started running into trouble, too, mostly because, well, just how many Stephen and Steve fics are there? Yeah, exactly. Stephen’s my main guy. So I did some research, outsourcing, and reading.

Here’s two I knew of before cuz Stephen’s in them in some capacity:

Identity Theft by KitKat992 - it stars Peter and both Tony and Steve play integral parts from what I recall. Good story too, very engaging.

A Dysfunctional Senior Year (series) by ApolloLoki97 - this also stars Peter and has a large Team As Family aspect, so it shows the entire Avengers team as just decent people. My favorite part is naturally part 3 because Stephen comes in that one, haha.

And to find other stories, I went into the Anti-Accords tag. It was nice to find fics that didn’t have such a love of hypocritical authoritarianism. Aannyyyyway.

Making Sense of Chaos by SparkedtoLife - mind the tags. Seriously, it’s heavy duty. Yet another Peter fic because he’s way more popular than my favorite character, qq. Lots of Netflix Marvel characters too! Anyway, deals with not only Tony and Steve really well (and has a different dynamic with Tony that isn’t IronDad, so that was a nice change of pace), it also deals with the Accords situation very realistically. And none of those are even main plot points. If you can handle the very serious, sensitive subject that is the main plot point, I highly recommended it. It’s a very masterfully done work.

Atlas by nanasekei - Stony. Treats all characters with respect and both Tony and Steve as three-dimensional, flawed humans with some serious self doubts. Also highly agree with the author that Thaddeus Ross sucks and is basically one of the biggest people to blame for Everything Going To Shit.

Homecoming by an orphaned account - Some Stucky. This is a lovely one-shot of things I basically wanted to happen when the team got together again but didn’t. Sigggghhh. Everyone is definitely in character in this one, traumas and healing and all. And look, another person realizes that trusting Ross is a really horrible idea.

Locks Not Replaced by Riverdaughter - first this writer has a Tolkien-based username so yay. Anyway, the fic starts off by Tony realizing that he almost killed Steve during the fight with his repulsors, and it was only Bucky that stopped him. Do people seriously think he’d survive a shot to the face with that power? This is one reason the ‘Steve tried to kill Tony’ people piss me the fuck off. What do you think those repulsors shoot, fucking rainbows? Honestly, guys. Anyway, mini rant over. This fic is great. Author comes in with a Cap favoritism but treats Tony well, and honestly Tony turning a blind eye to everything and ignoring Ross is what I like to think happened in canon (he clearly dislikes the guy). And also I love the Robin Hood parallels. Love love love. I think this fic is my favorite of the ones listed in this section.

Meeting Your Heroes by Riverdaughter - naturally after reading that fic I went to explore more and found this gem. She’s not incorrect in saying Tony wasn’t a good mentor at the beginning - I think he had his own growth after Peter’s actions in Homecoming especially (though even through Homecoming he was trying, just… not always successfully lmao). Anyway love these two together. It’s great.

Photograph by slytherclaw420 - A scene we deserved in Endgame and didn’t get. Sigh. Definite IronDad feels here. Hopeful Steve, rebuilding of a friendship.

And uh, an honorable mention of sorts:

Balancing the Scales by MoonFire1 - I’m not recommending this fic for good characterization or plot. It really doesn’t have either. The fic was written in retaliation for the nasty Tony fans completely trashing Steve’s character. You should only read this if you want to see the argument from “the other side” and if you want to see an anti-Tony fic like you’ve seen anti-Steve fics. Don’t harass the author though. This is presented as a counterargument to anti-Steve fiction, for those interested to read the other sides arguments. I don’t like the nature of the fic, but I loathe that “not Steve friendly” has 30 fucking pages of works with tens of thousands of kudos, so one anti-Tony fic (with a comparatively small three pages under that tag) really doesn’t compare. Ugh. I hate the anti culture in this fandom so much. Loathe it. It’s such a nasty energy! Why would you indulge in such negativity? But as I’ve mentioned before, I appreciate authors aware enough to tag it so I can avoid it. I wish that part of fandom culture didn’t exist, but well, can’t change it. Just can criticize the fuck out of it on my blog. Maybe encourage people to think less one-sided in the process if I’m lucky.

But there’s probably more good characterization Steve fics to be found, so I am forcefully recruiting two people via tag:

If you’re looking to dabble into Stony fics with good-guy-Steve, if anyone would know of any, I’d imagine it’d be @babywarg.

You don’t know this person, but @cairistiona7 has actually known me the longest of anyone here on tumblr (half my life! HALF! She even knows my real name :P She betaed a LOTR work of mine a decade ago I ended up never fully publishing… thanks again for all your help there…). Anyway, she’s a big Bucky fan, and Bucky friendships is the best thing. So if anyone would know any wholesome Bucky and Steve stories, it’d be her. (Or really I’d take any of your recs, Cair, as I’ll probably enjoy them as well).

I hope this was helpful to you md, and that I didn’t piss off too many of my followers in the process of answering this lol.

#mdcbd #tony stark critical #steve rogers critical #meta #the sokovia accords #character analysis #tony stark #steve rogers #peter parker #since he's in a lot of the fics #fic rec #ask #answered #anti culture

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