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m3nt4llyr4v3d · 9 days

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Felix v Chloe

Lemme just say, I hate the way Felix is treated in the show and the fandom compared to Chloe

Somehow, someway, the characters can forgive Felix and even have him on the team at the end (?????), and all of his actions are completely absolved due to his backstory: “Oh he was just doing all that for his survival! He was just an awkward quirky guy with no social cues all along!”

But Chloe’s backstory even being brought up for an explanation is immediately shut down, it doesn’t excuse a single thing she’s done! Hell, it doesn’t even explain why she’s the way she is because Mylene has an absent mother and she turned out fine! Doesn’t matter that Mylene had a father that actually taught her how to act and didn’t just buy her love with constant gifts and abuses of power, there’s just no excuse!

Both act in their own self interest, turning to the villain to get something they want, but nonono, Felix, without apologizing once mind you, is redeemed and forgiven while Chloe gets sent off to NY with her mother! Everyone wins!

Not to mention Felix did arguably worse than Chloe

Felix was the one who actively made Hawkmoth more powerful by giving him the miraculous (not to mention giving HM the ring) while with Chloe, Hawkmoth got the miraculous on his own and she was just along for the ride basically. Then Felix came back and snapped away everyone. Chloe sent everyone away when she was akumatized as well, but at least we could see where they went and there wasn’t any confusion as to whether they got snapped to some pocket dimension or straight up disappeared. Oh, and she was akumatized by Gabriel who was literally manipulating her along with Tomoe and Lila at the time??

I feel like any arguments for Felix about worrying for his or Adrien’s safety, any excuses, should’ve been thrown out the window in the season 4 finale. After that point he had full control over himself and gave up Adrien’s free will, and he still came back to snap everyone away! Now, I would absolutely be fine with this (cept the Adrien part) I mean trauma with humans isn’t going to go away just like that even when there’s no immediate risk anymore (unless you get a girlfriend apparently). My issue with that is how this same sentiment isn’t given to Chloe whatsoever, her lash outs aren’t given any thought beyond “oh she’s evil for the sake of it”, ignoring how the trauma of her mother leaving her and treating her like garbage would still affect her, and it drives me up the wall

Not to mention the show actively tries to pretend that the adults surrounding Chloe’s life don’t have any influence on her whatsoever, even though they obviously do and Tomoe and Gabriel literally set her up as a scapegoat in this season. Somehow her father isn’t responsible whatsoever for the way she was raised, her mother leaving apparently didn’t even affect her behavior because we’re genuinely supposed to believe this teenager is just an evil person. Somehow the storyline of her being set up as a scapegoat by two grown ass adults is literally ignored by the narrative including some of the fans

Oh but Felix gets all the sympathy regardless of what he did

Right.

I wouldn’t hate Felix or his character direction so much if it wasn’t a direct slap to the face for Chloe, not to mention giving the Chloe stans fuel! I mean, it literally proved their point that Chloe deserved a redemption because full grown adults who’ve done worse and a guy who’s done nearly the same shit as her are forgiven and “redeemed”, ridiculous (I say that a lot huh)

#ml salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #ml chloe #chloe deserves better #felix salt #ml fandom salt #felix deserves better #writing that is

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theerurishipper · 6 months

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https://www.tumblr.com/jacquesthepigeon/731353272698486784/you-know-it-must-be-said-as-someone-whos-only?source=share

Of course this is said from someone who has never seen the show. God forbid folks favorite character, is THE SECOND MAIN CHARACTER AND IN THE TITLE OF THE SHOW.

God forbid abuse survivors find Adrichat’s story relatable and react negatively to people who salt on him for, checks notes, being a rich white boy? Because being rich and white protects you from abuse lol okay

Someone go tell Kesha that the horrific abuse she endured for years doesn’t count because she’s rich and white.

Someone go tell Britney Spears and Amanda Bynes that they deserve their conservatorships because they’re too volitile and emotional and need someone else to control their entire lives. Also they’re rich and white so they should be thankful for their privilege.

Also as a fandom veteran, I’m also baffled that this anon says they’ve never seen fandom go this feral over a white boy so I guess the whole Superwholock thing doesn’t exist in this person’s universe. I’m getting war flashbacks…

I really hope this doesn't come off as rude, but I just have a small request for any anons in the future: if y'all want me to comment on someone else's post, please send it in a separate ask. I just don't want to post someone else's post and start an argument or something.

That being said, I do agree. My detailed thoughts under the cut.

"Adrien stans are white people who get unhinged over a white boy," say the Marinette stans and Marinette stan observers, not realizing that they espouse disgusting abuse apologism on a daily basis and victim blame a character who is a victim of abuse for being traumatized all because he made a few decisions that weren't about Marinette and her well-being alone.

This is ridiculous on so many levels. First the assumption that all Adrien stans are white people. Second, the assumption that we must be Adrien stans because he's a white boy and we don't care about POC characters as much as we do the white ones. Which is actually quite insulting to me.

Maybe these people should actually read what Adrien stans have to say. Maybe they should actually understand why we love Adrien so much. Maybe they should understand why we get so heated over him.

Know what? I'll tell you why. It's because Adrien is despite the writers' best efforts to undermine him an interesting and likeable character. He is a canonical abuse victim, and he struggles with his self-worth and his identity, which is a relatable story to many people. He's an entertaining and interesting character. He's the deuteragonist of the damn show. People are bound to love him. There's more to him than being a white boy and it's very insulting to imply that people obsess over him because he's white or because his fans are white.

And about how Adrien stans get "unhinged" about Adrien and not about other characters... we're literally Adrien stans. Which means Adrien is our favorite character. Naturally, we're going to talk more about him. This is basic common sense. I don't understand the problem here with liking Adrien more than other characters. Are we not allowed to have faves anymore?

And you know why Adrien stans get "unhinged" over him? Because the show treats him badly! Why shouldn't we get mad that a character whom we love is being treated poorly by the writers? Why can't we get heated about that? Marinette stans get heated about their fave being victimized by the narrative all the time, so why is it a crime if Adrien stans get upset if Adrien gets the same treatment? Adrien's story in the show ended with him being reduced to an object and a prop for his girlfriend so that she could side with his abuser and start controlling him instead. Why can't we get angry at that?

Marinette stans will talk about how both Adrien and Marinette are written badly but only Marinette gets criticized and how that's racist and shit, and will ignore the fact that our criticism has nothing to do with race and everything to do with Marinette siding with Gabriel to lie to an abuse victim, and how the show frames this as correct. We criticize Marinette because she's making an awful mistake and doing bad things! This is like, the worst strawman I have ever seen. At some point, it really feels like they are being willfully ignorant.

And about how Adrien stans treat other characters, riddle me this. Who has a proper tag dedicated to bashing them on AO3? Who was the character who was salted on so much when Syren aired? Who was the character being raked over the coals when Chameleon aired? Who was the character who was salted on in Season 4 for breaking a damn fucking chimney? Who was the character whose struggles in Season 4 were overlooked by Marinette stans who criticized him for "being entitled to Ladybug?" Who was the character who was relentlessly salted on whenever he did anything that didn't completely attend to Marinette's needs? Who is the character who was labelled a "sexual harasser?" Who is the character on whom these "fans" rain down their victim blaming and abuse apologia? Who is the character who has the longest history of being salted and bashed by the Marinette stans?

And I will laugh at the audacity of Marinette stans to argue in favor of POC characters and blame Adrien stans for "obsessing over a white boy while not giving the same treatment to characters of color" while their legacy includes salting Alya for not being Marinette's perfect emotional support BFF. Who has their own salt tag apart from Adrien on AO3? Alya does. It's laughable to me that Marinette stans harp on about how Adrien stans prefer the white boy over the POC characters when they spent the better part of the last few years bashing Alya and even devolved into outright racism against her. To say nothing of how they treated Kagami after Frozer dropped.

And these people accuse Adrien stans of showing preferential treatment to white characters? Marinette stans have no leg to stand on when it comes to calling out other people's treatment of POC characters. And I'm not saying that the anon or OP of the post are racist or that they personally contributed to this. But if they are going to make sweeping statements about Adrien stans accusing all of us of going unhinged over a white boy and treating POC characters unfairly, they should maybe take a look inwards at their own community.

Marinette stans have spent years bashing every other character for the smallest perceived slight. Marinette stans created a whole new genre of Miraculous fanfiction dedicated to propping up Marinette like their personal goddess and punishing other characters for not being her devoted slaves. Marinette stans have contributed greatly to the racism in this fandom. Look at all this and tell me: who really seems unhinged here?

So yeah. Ice cold take imo. Also, obligatory disclaimer: Not all Marinette stans are like this! Most of them are nice and sweet, but there are also plenty of bad apples who have been responsible for a lot of toxicity in this fandom.

Thank you for your ask!

#MLB #Adrien Agreste #Chat Noir #Adrien Sugar #Marinette Salt #ML Salt #ML Fandom Salt #ML Writing Salt #ML Writers Salt #Meta #My meta #Asks #Ladybug Salt #Seriously Marinette stans do not look at this post

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purrincess-chat · 1 year

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I'm tired of hearing how by adrinette dating, they forgot about their partners and that they don't care about each other enough. I might be wrong but wasnt it the kwami's choice to take the miraculous away? And not Adrien and Marinette's?

It was, that's why the arc is named Kwamis Choice, but LN stans are in their butthurt crybaby era so every time canon doesn't exclusively show them making out on screen, they're going to cry that it's an injustice. So like, idk maybe just block them? 😅

I'm sure LB and CN talked about it afterward and realized they were in the same boat or when the new heroes showed up, realized that, hey, maybe Plagg/Tikki took theirs too. But I think their reaction to not being heroes anymore says a lot. Not necessarily about their relationship because being heroes is way more than that, but again, people forget about all of the ways being heroes has traumatized the two of them because they're too busy reducing the LN dynamic to "constantly eye banging each other while mercilessly flirting and occasionally punching a bad guy so they can go back to flirting" which is a very shallow and over exaggerated interpretation of that dynamic. Being heroes is a huge responsibility. Marinette's anxiety hasn't gotten worse since s1 for no reason? She hasn't started having panic attacks just because she feels like it? Being heroes has caused them so many problems, and yes, there has been good to come out of it, but that doesn't make up for all of the bad? Look at the state Marinette was in at the beginning of Transmission. She's being crushed by the weight of the world, and she doesn't know what to do about it. She's in full on mental breakdown mode because she's a hero. Not only a hero, the hero. Everyone counts on her more than Chat Noir because she can fix everything and purify the akuma. She's the guardian. She's the one with the plans that win the fights. And it's crushing her.

So, yeah, excuse her if she feels relieved to be free of that burden and allowed to just be a normal teenager that can have a boyfriend and normal life again. It's not about how she feels about Chat Noir or even about her wanting to date Adrien, it's about her being actively traumatized and pushed to her breaking point over a responsibility she didn't even ask for in the first place. That's why she was relieved. And ya know what, she did think about Chat Noir when shit was going down. They only gave up their miraculouses for like a day, so it wasn't even enough time for everything to sink in yet. They took a deep breath and were trying desperately to embrace normalcy for the first time in months because they're exhausted. Once they had that for a minute, then Marinette said oh shit I hope Chats okay, and then before she could dwell on that further, they were back again.

But most people don't care about them as characters, they just want to watch them fight bad guys and flirt forever rather than having any of the meaningful development happening this season that they're ignoring because it's not the dynamic they wanted, and they think two people helping each other heal trauma is boring. So, again, to my original point, just block anyone having a tantrum over LN being platonic this season. It's easier.

#asks #cat replies #s5 discourse #ml fandom salt

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colorfuldream · 9 months

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Rare Miraculous post but YouTube is a cesspit of Adrien stans and I cannot stand it anymore

Like I was watching a video that aimed at analyzing the show as a whole and I got hit with a whole rant about how "Chat didn't know Ladybug's boundaries", "being persistent is a good thing (even if she said no)", "she's "flirting" with him so she's asking for him to keep hitting on her" (even though she's friendly and made it clear she wasn't into him), "he even had a whole new cute relationship" (he cheated on Kagami all the while and was using her to try to get over Ladybug but I guess it's cute)

Just because he's depressed and sheltered doesn't give him the right to do any of that and he should damn well know his behavior wasn't okay. Ffs, Kuro Neko isn't a cute episode, it's Adrien throwing yet ANOTHER temper tantrum and had a whole cheating allegory when... She was trying to rely on people to fight a literal terrorist? It's every problem with Chat Noir compiled in one episode.

Oh and don't get me started on the double standards between Marinette and Adrien. He can't be the butt of the joke (despite Chat being the "jokester") and him sacrificing himself almost every fight is the writers hating him (lmao) and not a part of his character (even though it aligns with everything we know about him and has consequences, namely Ladybug relying on other heroes who will be useful in a fight). But Marinette's (unfunny) gags are 100% serious and indicating of her character. The over-the-top teenage girl in love antics (common in old shojos which were the inspiration even though they do suck) are her being a crazy stalker. (And to be fair to her, it's more of a weird celebrity crush). (Also the person claimed that one of her friends should intervene which is true but they also claimed they were bystanders when her friends have actively encouraged her to pursue Adrien, pushed them together even when Marinette was trying to move on, and generally participated in her bullshit. Have we watched the same show?!) Marinette being friendly with people she meet and her classmates? Mary Sue, the show is forcing everyone to love her... Even though it's normal friendliness between people and her classmates hate her at the drop of a hat. Of course, Adrien staying friends with Chloé even after he's witnessed her bullying anyone in her sight is because he was isolated and attached to her and not him showing he was passive and naive to the point of stupidity (to be fair again, it would be good flaws especially with how he can't lead/take charge and how sheltered he is if only the show had decent writing). And so on, and so on.

I mean... I'm not calling it internalized misogyny but... Come on.

At first, I was going to keep listening but around the end of the Adrien section, I just couldn't. Who actually writes down something along the lines of "she was touching him, smiling at him, retorting with one liners so she was reciprocating to his advances", read it out, edit footage over it and not realize how victim-blamy it is??

I'm not saying Marinette doesn't have flaws of course. But holy shit. I just want someone who can see both characters for what they are: old problematic tropes that shouldn't be in shows anymore. And while the writing hates both just as much, it has a trend of hating teenage girls and Marinette suffers so much bullshit it's obvious the writers have a bias against her. (+It's obvious from Astruc's Twitter that he loves Adrien and he's stated that Adrien has no flaws while the show revolves around Marinette's mistakes which explains why she's blames for everything even when it's not her fault!)

#ondina's text posts!#text #miraculous ladybug #miraculous salt #miraculous #are those the proper tags?#marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste

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ilikekidsshows · 1 year

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The thing I don't like from the senti theory that been going around lately in the fandom is that some people like to simplified and reduce Adrien's reaction and act simply because Gabriel create him that way. Adrien having trouble to express his anger? Oh it's because he's created that way. Adrien is a people pleaser? Yeah that's because Gabriel create him that way. Adrien can't talk back to his father? Gabriel made him can't do it by twisting his ring! Gabriel commanded Adrien and he comply? That's because Gabriel has his amok! They agree that Adrien is abused but most of them also agree that Adrien's inability to fight back Gabriel command is solely because of the amok not a trauma respond or at least mostly the former.

I'm a firm believer that senti Adrien is a big bullshit because if Gabriel has that power to control Adrien 24/7 then he would do it without hesitation, he won't need to wait until Adrien show a sign of rebelling to use it. He would do it every fucking single time! This is Gabriel, the same person who mock Ladybug and Cat Noir for getting sentimental over a sentimonster after all.

If I have a power that could control my son-puppet emotion, feeling and action, I wouldn't bother to manipulate-gaslight him. It's a waste of time and energy. He doesn't like the pancake I made? Twist the amok and he would eat it without protest. No effort needed. Unless this is the whole Even Evil Has Standard but I doubt it is.

This is another case of the Senti Stans being completely unaware of the implications of the things they’re saying. Like, they do not mean to imply the things they imply, you’ll see this in how genuinely angry and defensive they get every time someone points out said implications. This doesn’t change the fact that almost every single time a new defense of SentiAdrien shows up, it does indeed imply some stuff that really grinds people’s gears.

Because, here’s the thing; chalking up Adrien’s trauma responses as being a result of him being a Sentimonster is literally saying that he acts the way he does because he is not human. This idea that his Sentimonster programming informs his behavior is the same thing as saying that these actions make more sense if he’s not human. Said actions being trauma responses creates the implication that people who act like they’ve been traumatized act in unreasonable, weird or inhuman ways. It’s literally othering trauma victims as something other than a “normal” human.

This is why people who are against the SentiAdrien concept say that the concept makes light of Adrien’s story being an abuse story. The Stans can claim until they’re blue in the face that they still view Adrien’s abuse as abuse, but everything else they say creates implications that ring as the opposite, especially when they say that him being a Sentimonster would “explain” his or Gabriel’s behavior, when nothing about their situation is different from a real life abusive relationship.

If something already happens in the real world, unless the fictional universe is changing its mechanics, it requires no fantastical explanation. In the world of Equestria, seasons don't pass naturally, so the ponies need to pull off a Winter Wrap-up to change winter to spring. The only reason Gabriel's abuse and Adrien's responses to it would need to be explained is if neither existed naturally in the world of Miraculous. And, since Miraculous seems to be functioning similarly to our world when it comes to family stuff, that would be like the show was denying the actual existence of abusive families, especially if all the rich/abused kids are Sentimonsters, which is the popular current take on the concept.

In a fandom where people still vilify Adrien for his trauma responses, let’s not give the hatedom even more reasons to demonize him by saying him being a Sentimonster explains jack shit. It just gives people who don’t sympathize or empathize with trauma victims a free pass.

Here’s the thing about Gabriel’s characterization in a SentiAdrien situation: it doesn’t work no matter how you spin it. No matter what he’ll come out of it with inconsistent characterization and his behavior not making sense.

Option one is that Gabriel doesn’t care about Adrien and doesn’t care about Sentimonsters. That means that he would be using the Amok constantly to get out of dealing with Adrien wanting different things than he does, but he doesn’t do that so it’s inconsistent.

Option two is that Gabriel loves Adrien and therefore doesn’t want to control him. Then why is he okay with other people keeping hold of his son’s essence when he couldn’t trust them to begin with (Félix) or is learning he can’t trust them anymore (Nathalie)? It still doesn't make sense.

Either way we spin Gabriel’s relationship to his remote-control robot son, it just doesn’t work. Even if we go back by about a year back to the third option of Gabriel not knowing Adrien is a Sentimonster, that would just make all the Sentimonster “foreshadowing” nonsense.

#ml fandom salt #sentitheory salt #adrien is not a sentimonster #I'm transferring over to the sentitheory salt tag because this theory has gotten so broad at this point

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goldenharmony · 1 year

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k ladynoir is my favourite side of the love square, but I was kinda get vexxed at a certain ladynoir stan blog for dunking on Adrienette in s5 and dunking on ppl who love Adrienette the most out of the love square? 😭Saying Adrienette was boring/generic compared to Ladynoir, like I thought we as a fandom reaffirmed that its not nice of certain Marichat shippers to dunk on Ladrien as a ship, so why we doing this again 😭And Adrienette is far from basic, even without identity shenanigans

You can’t look at Adrien changing into pajamas for Marinette’s sake, and call that shit generic high school romance

#like yes im sad over how we couldn't have more of the overall love square focus and falling in love as a whole for s5 #and am a bit confused over this direction based on end of s4 #...but like i still like the adrienette we are getting lol #they have been so adorable so far and just couple goals #basically im saying you can be a bit disappointed but to get straight up salty and start trashing adrienette is...weird lol #and this is from someone who's favourite side of the LS is Ladynoir #and plz dont say their username if you know who i am talking about because i dont wanna get axed lol #lily watches ml

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controversial-blorbo-bracket · 9 months

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AHAHAHA it's the rabid-adrien-hater-cos-ppl-mention-him-nonstop-in-my-comments anon again, and the information that hes usually hated in batfam circles is so funny to me because i am actually a huge batfam stan and writer (tho my bat works arent where i get the mlb comments). Except i have only seen crossover (maribat) fics in passing and just from the summaries i was like ...that looks like the most wack ooc shit ever (at least for damian, and when theyre mentioned, the other bats too. Again, cant judge marinette cos idk her). But its very funny to me that i am happening to fall into the sterotype like a 'got the right answer with the wrong formula' type situation.

Rip to the last person, its not damians fault but i cant say i dont understand fans' behaviour making u hate a character regardless

I love this. I feel like you two anons should become best friends

#a modern love story happening in my askbox #not a poll #ask #anonymous

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blueberry-macaron · 2 years

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The main reason why I dislike Adrien are without a doubt his annoying ass stans. Every conversation I had with them was basically

Stan: Adrien is just a kid, of course he makes mistakes sometimes:)

Me: yeah, like that one time where he did-

Stan: uhhhh no wtf he was completely and entirely right here excuse me stop hating on my boy go to hell you abuse apologist

#ml salt #ml fandom salt #adrien salt #andrien stan salt #shit adrien stans say #like even if Adrien wasn't exactly the best written character I could tolerate him and the love square #but oh boy his stans can be so insuffarable sometimes #just accept that Adrien sometimes does dumb shit instead of excusing the dumb shit #rant #just had a discussion with a stan on instagram and it pissed me off

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walks-the-ages · 11 months

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ID:

firebearingscissortail

Just throwing my two-cents in as a queer person on this whole debacle.

nonbinary-naturalist and walks-the-ages are notorious shit-stirrers. I would absolutely not take anything they say seriously, because they interpret nearly everything in bad faith.

Nonbinary-naturalist, aka rjalker on tumblr, has created a 1,000+ page callout list of people for crimes such as liking a childrens cartoon character or " thinking that superheros dont have an obligation to protect people. " It and walks-the-ages constantly engage in bizarre discourse, and I genuinely wouldn’t be surprised if they were the same person. Either way, they function as a tag team for started deranged fights online.

This coupled with the fact they are now going full scorched earth and accusing every admin on INaturalist, and INaturalist itself, as being transphobic ( inaturalist-propaganda.tumblr.com ), I think it being banned is absolutely not a surprise or uncalled for. It’s obsessed with being superior and having the moral high ground against literally everyone .

Do I love misgendering? No. Do I think everything the moderation team did is super great? Also no. But the two main players in this argument are not reasonable people and I would caution anyone who speaks to them.

Adrien stans have reached a new height, folks. Going out of their way to harass myself and Rjalker on third party websites and in doing so defending transphobia and calling us trolls LOL

For all Adrien stans and proshippers claim that we're ""obsessed with childrens cartoons", they really can't see outside their scope of hate following and stalking, can they? Hmm? When's the last time either of us interacted with any of the ML fandom ??? lollolol.

anyways please, for pride month, take a moment to create an account and vote "no" on this poll and ask the mods to remove the 2 original posts, as requested.

Hey guys, did you know that repeating conspiracy theories that I don't actually exist and am just a sockpuppet blog is not a good look for you, right?

#inaturalist #shit adrien stans say #transphobia #miraculous ladybug #fuck proshippers #ml salt #adrien salt #yes i'm putting it on those tags so everyone can see how desperate these fictional character worshipeprs are to smear peopels names

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rjalker · 11 months

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Adrien stans once again pretending Walks and I are the same person lofl. These people are so fucking obsessed with me that they're still fucking checking up on my blog and hate me so much that they're literally willing to follow me off site to explicitly condone transmisia against me.

Why am I not surprised that the people who think children's shows brainwashing kids into thinking sexual harassment is okay are raging transmisics as well as fucking misogynists and abuse apologists?

#shit adrien stans say

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spif-lol · 1 year

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If there's one ladrien stan, it's me. If there's no ladrien stans I have died. Watched a video about how boring Ladrien is compared to marichat and I don't agree at all. I guess maybe if you're only looking at the romantic aspects of it, which I would argue are interesting, but perhaps lesser so than the other sides of the square. But scenes with ladybug and adrien in them are always some of my favourite, because I'm always trying to see those scenes from each other's perspectives. It wouldn't be satisfying if they ended up as a couple, but to get insight into how they view each other would be so good. There's the obvious layers to it, that they are both public figures and they assume the other reacts the way they do to each other because of that fame. But in the individual scenes, it's crazy.

Their first meeting, in the Mime, it's fine, straightforward, Ladybug stops short midsentence when he rolls the window down and stares wordlessly back at her. Neither probably thought much of that interaction, and were simply wrapped up in their own feelings.

Then in Simon Says they have their first proper interaction. Ladybug travels with Adrien and Nino to the Agreste mansion in order to protect his dad from the villain, and Ladybug and Adrien have a brief heart to heart in Adrien's room. People give these two a lot of shit for the way they blush and stammer and generally have a surface level relationship, but I've always loved the way the two start that scene all gooey for each other and then quickly sober up and talk to each other really naturally. I honestly really love the professionalism in this relationship - sure they can't have the friendship potential of any of the other sides of the square but the respect they have for each other is so important.

One thing people don't acknowledge enough is how much Marinette learns about Adrien simply through being Ladybug. They treat each other different in these forms, yes, they maybe see each other in an idealised manner but of all sides of the square this is the one where Adrien is the most vulnerable and open about his life, relationship with his mother, fear of being locked up. It isn't until the end of Season 4 that Marinette herself is told anything of the sort by him, and DESPITE the strengths of marichat, one issue with it is that Chat can't tell her anything personal, because his identity's a secret. Adrien with Ladybug is not the same, aside from obviously not letting her know he's Chat Noir.

In Riposte, instead of making up an answer to explain why he left his hiding spot (so he could fight as Chat Noir), Adrien gives Ladybug an earnest half truth, and tells her he hates being locked up, which we later see in Sandboy to be his greatest nightmare. We already know that Adrien as Chat Noir wears his heart on his sleeve, but in his civillian form to Ladybug he's arguably even more so. His identity reveal in one of the timelines in Desperada is as Adrien, and his fantasy of suggesting he and Ladybug run away together is as Adrien too.

In relation to this, one of the things I love most about Ladrien is that it humanizes Adrien for Marinette in a big way. He is vulnerable and thoughtful around Ladybug, often the damsel in distress. And Adrien gets to see Ladybug knocked off her pedestal around him, in Santa Claws (my beloathed), in Volpina and elsewhere, he calls her out for acting decidedly unheroic, in a way she often does when she is obsessing over him. He doesn't understand why, and this causes him a lot more pause for thought than when she brushes him off as Chat Noir.

That's what it is, that's the heart of why I love Ladrien. The intrigue. The way their relationship must drive each other crazy. They don't know the other is in love with them, they just know that as two vaguely famous strangers they have a special bond. They don't have a natural build up of friendship like Marichat, but instead intense dramatic moments that build up with each season. Him trusting her to save him in Gorizilla, her insistence that he use the Snake miraculous in Deperada. From Ladybug's perspective, why would Adrien fight so hard and not give up after a few tries? He says that all he cared about was saving her. That's insane. Even with the aesop of the episode - that she is choosing Adrien despite Luka being the obvious choice - the reliance they have on each other is heartwarming. Sad that she has romance goggles on in this ep and treats Chat as lesser, but ultimately they both learn a lot in this episode, and actually have a foundation for a relationship from here on out.

A few people have pointed out that when she gives 'Adrien' the dog miraculous in Risk/Strikeback a) yeah there's a bit of romance goggles at play but actually she is being pretty smart here in choosing him as someone she TRUSTS and isn't under the effect of Risk and b) while the actual thing gets undercut by us as the audience knowing that it's actually Felix and having to watch Chat Noir feel snubbed yet again (he got done so dirty in Season 4 pls protect my boy) it's so so so sweet how she treats 'Adrien' in this episode, knowing that she knows he struggled in Desperada and encouraging him now that he has another miraculous to wield. Ladybug and Chat Noir as a duo may have been shunted to the side, but Ladybug is so good as a team mum in that season. She cares about Adrien so deeply and will do anything to make him feel better (she doesn't realise Chat needs the same support until it's too late, but her trusting him with the bunny in Season 5 does show that she learns her lesson).

And what a lesson it is to learn! One of the most iconic Ladrien scenes occurs at the end of Strikeback, as a casual miraculous handover turns into Adrien and Ladybug sharing one of the MOST INTENSE scenes in the series. Ladybug realising she was tricked, and having every reason not to trust Adrien in this scene, but trusting him anyway. Being snapped out of a panic attack by his insistent kindness, and detransforming to begin the hard road ahead of her. Everything changes after this scene, and it would be enough for me even if we never got any Ladrien again.

But of course we do, in Deflagration, the scene that prompted me to write this post because I'm OBSESSED WITH IT. Marinette's class all fighting Hawkmoth as civilians, and Marinette in her ladybug disguise, pulling off her plan with their help, fighting Hawkmoth hand to hand to get her earrings back. Failing, always just out of reach. Until Adrien acts decisively, running forward and taking the earrings in one fluid motion, as only one who has been fighting alongside Ladybug defeating akuma after akuma can. The scene focusses on Hawkmoth's horror at the fact that his son has defeated him, and Adrien's cold, cruel expression as he stares at the man who has caused so much destruction and suffering to everyone he knows. But what is Ladybug thinking in this scene? Leaving aside that she's just gotten into a relationship with this man due to his sheer defiance in standing up to her and getting her to admit her feelings. Ignoring the part earlier in the episode where she wonders sadly where Chat Noir is, and hopes he's okay. Is she surprised by the effortless way in which he disarms Monarch? Or has their relationship thus far taught her that Adrien Agreste is a force of kindness and ruthlessness?

The professionalism kicks in. "Thank you comrade!" she says with a salute and runs off to transform and get the job done, defeat Monarch. She has no idea that that was Chat Noir. No idea that that was Gabriel Agreste they just fought. Nothing but sheer thankfulness that the Resistance made up of her friends and classmates, with whom they wouldn't have won, embodied by Adrien.

Ladrien my beloved.

In short, it may be an underloved ship, but I will always adore the nuances of their relationship, and the way it opens up new dynamics to the love square and the fight against Monarch.

#miraculous ladybug #love square #ladrien #i tried really hard to stop myself from using mine and my housemates favourite running joke #referring to hawkmoth with variations of cockmoth hawkbitch etc etc #did pretty well all things considered

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theerurishipper · 7 months

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Sorry, I need to rant about the whole "Adrien sitting out fights in Kuro Neko" bs from season 4 bc I hate how that was handled with every inch of my being.

Marinette stans always make it out as if Adrien didn't show up in 7 seperate episodes but the only episode where he's actively doing that is Kuro Neko and that episode did not take place without context. I HATE IT how Ephemeral is basically just written off in this fandom as non-existing episode just because Marinette's actions can't be excused easily or because it's a time loop.

Most of the episode takes place outside the time loop and Marinette's fucked up plan is 100% NOT hidden from Chat Noir in the end. Once the time anomalies happen she straight up makes NO effort in hiding from him that she is in direct communication with an transformed Sass and even leads CHAT right to Luka so they can talk to Sass about a time loop time-line he JUST undid!

Adrien KNOWS Ladybug did something here and that her asking to meet him was of innocent intention. She is NOT hiding it. He then remains professional until everything is solved and when they fly back to earth he asks her what she wanted to talk about, giving her a fair chance of explaining herself, and she just says nah, which bothered him (of course??) alot.

THIS lead into Kuro Neko.

Ephemeral did.

Adrien in Ephemeral honest to god couldn't attend the battle for once because his civilian life prevented him from going. He didn't choose to sit out, Chat Noir has a civilian life no matter if that's convenient for Ladybug or not. She called him who knows how many times but couldn't reach him and Adrien also seemingly only had time to finally transform and call her back hours later.

He immediately had the feeling he's in trouble but he still immediately called her back because that was the responsible thing to do. He tries to explain to her what happened but Ladybug isn't interested in his explanation and just asks to met him.

And that's the thing that pisses me off SO BADLY about all this. Marinette is giving 0 fucking shits about Chat's civilian life, what reasonings he has or if something else happened why he couldn't come. In Kuro Neko Adrien stays away for longer and Ladybug is treating his absence as if ShadowMoth has to ask for HER PERMISSION first to have found and gotten Chat Noir as civilian. Chat could have been dead in a gutter 17 times already and she just doesn't question his absence. "Chat was apologetic on the phone before I cut him off so that'll forever be the case now"

No? You're not benevolently giving him a break Marinette, he stopped showing up.

And he stopped showing up because he couldn't attend the battle in Ephemeral, she called him like 20 times but HE doesn't know that the reason why she set up the trap against him is because of Su-Han (and her own bullshit). All he knows is that he couldn't come, he already felt like he's in trouble when he saw her calls, she wasn't in anyway interested in WHY he couldn't come and once he met her he finds out he apparently WAS in trouble because she's painfully upfront with having lead him into a snake miraculous trap!

From his perspective he couldn't be there ONCE since "Mr pigeon 72" because of his civilian life and he was immediately treated like an obstacle and problem by her she needs to take care of.

And he's giving her the fair chance to explain herself at the end and she rather flies home in silence instead of explaining all she just directly showed him. And after THAT Adrien stays home where Ladybug also doesn't try contacting him again.

Meaning for him she only had patience for waiting and calling for him one time, then she immediately used another Miraculous (holder) against him but her plan apparently resulted in such horrible consequences that Sass had to use his powers and undo everything. Sass even EXPLAINS that be can only go back to second chance save states, meaning Chat Noir KNOWS that it was used by Luka right when Ladybug and he met. Luka who was in direct conversation with Ladybug. Marinette, you idiot! Why are you letting Chat Noir see and know all that and then refuse to give ANY fucking context when he gives you the chance for it??

Why tf was ADRIEN the one in the wrong here? I would have stayed tf home too if I'm immediately turned into a non-human obstacle that needs to be taken care of like an Akuma villain just because my life stopped me from joining the battle ONE time in how many weeks since Mr Pigeon 72.

Chat noir then afterwards not showing up for longer? Well, ShadowMoth didn't ask for her permission first so nothing could have happened to him. It's not like in last episode's time loop ShadowMoth DID find Chat Noir behind Marinette's back because he overheard his son at the ONE wrong moment and that's why Sass had to use his powers!

What is this bullshit? Why was ADRIEN blamed for this? Non of this was in anyway taken care of, just written off because it would have required more than nothing from Ladybug in terms of taking Chat Noir and his life and survival into concideration in her leadership and guardianship. But as season 4 kindly teached us, her allowing him to be part of her group is already basically charity work he should be grateful for.

Of course Chat Noir, by all means, didn't made it out of this partnership and only returned in the new reality. It's a miracle he even made it THIS long

You actually hit on something I hadn't thought about, anon. Chat Noir seeing Ladybug in contact with Viperion for reasons unknown to him and her subsequently dismissing him when he asks her what's up would be reasonable grounds for him to understand that she pretty much doesn't need him anymore and that he's being left out of the loop that Luka is somehow allowed to be in. Maybe that's a reason for him not showing up in the next episode, especially since he's also seen that Ladybug doesn't really need him to defeat villains. Ephemeral even specifically focuses on his expression when Ladybug dismisses him, which is an odd choice unless they wanted us to pay attention to his reaction.

But you're absolutely right. Ephemeral had Adrien be unable to come to the battle because of his civilian life, and Ladybug managed just fine. People love to salt on Adrien for "leaving Ladybug high and dry," or "neglecting his duty and leaving her to face Shadow Moth alone," or some BS like that, when the reason he didn't show up is because she did have more people and didn't need him anymore, and he felt left out and neglected. And realizing that Ladybug had some plans going on in the background that she didn't want to let him in on would be enough reason for him to believe she doesn't want him anymore.

And about this:

Yeah! Like, I get that Marinette is stressed and has a lot on her plate, but it is kind of her responsibility as the leader and Guardian of the Miraculous to ensure that they are protected. She has all these plans and resources and allies to call on in her time of need, and yet she doesn't seem to even consider that her partner might potentially face dangerous situations and that she should maybe consider his safety. Either she has to treat him like a partner and share information with him, or she has to be the leader and take steps to ensure his safety, because he is also Shadow Moth's target, and he wants Chat Noir's Miraculous too.

Like, she's the leader. It's her "job" to take decisions about this. She doesn't want to share important information with him, but she also doesn't want to take any sort of responsibility for his safety. She wants him to be content with staying out of the loop, but she also expects him to take care of himself without giving him the information he might need to do so. And like we see in Ephemeral, he got caught. When Marinette was caught, she called Luka and somehow managed to save the world, but Adrien had no such luck.

She never even cared WHY he couldn't be there or if it'll be something that'll keep him away longer. Genuinely, no fucks given by her. The way the narrative treats it Marinette is approaching Chat's life and involvement in her leadership and guardianship in the way that he automatically feels sorry for having "caused trouble" but nothing of significance ever could possibly happen in his life or to HIM that would require for her to LISTEN to him. Chat noir then afterwards not showing up for longer? Well, ShadowMoth didn't ask for her permission first so nothing could have happened to him. It's not like in last episode's time loop ShadowMoth DID find Chat Noir behind Marinette's back because he overheard his son at the ONE wrong moment and that's why Sass had to use his powers!

I don't like to be too harsh on Marinette for this, but I agree completely. Chat Noir's safety is so unimportant to her and isn't even a factor in her leadership. She just expects him to be okay as she hides more and more stuff from him. And I get that Marinette is under a lot of pressure and that she isn't the best at considering larger perspectives, but it's still bad leadership and it's still irresponsible. We literally saw that her secrets impede his ability to act, like in Hack-San, and that he is literally alone and has no one to turn to if he is in danger, like in Ephemeral. She just expects him to be around and keep being her faithful partner and never have any sort of issues or problems ever. She acts like she is his leader by hiding stuff from him and pretty much demoting him, but she also wants him to remain her partner who won't ask a thing of her or won't give her any new responsibilities and will just endlessly support her, even though that can't happen because their dynamic has changed.

Yeah exactly. It always pissed me off that Chat Noir was portrayed as the one in that wrong and had to apologize to Ladybug. She owes him nothing, it's just that he was too sensitive. Kuro Neko is literally the worst.

And also:

And I'm supposed to be surprised that Chat Noir never made it into the final battle? When Adrien tells Plagg he can't ask Ladybug for help because only she is worthy of getting help or breaking her precious rules only HE has to strictly uphold anyway. Of course Chat Noir, by all means, didn't made it out of this partnership and only returned in the new reality. It's a miracle he even made it THIS long

You've said it all so well that I have nothing more to add.

Thank you for your ask!

#MLB #Miraculous Ladybug #Adrien Agreste #Marinette Dupain Cheng #Ladybug #Chat Noir #ML Salt #ML Writing Salt #ML Writers Salt #Marinette Salt #Ladybug Salt #Meta #My meta #Asks #Ladynoir conflict

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purrincess-chat · 7 months

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I hear fans saying that ladrien sucks because canon doesn’t give us any crumbs but ummm hello? How is marichat the most popular ship then because marichat is also not very much prevalent in the show. Ladynoir and adrinette have always been the primary focus. And ladrien and marichat have been equally shown. Like in s1 we had evillustrator and Simon says and volpina, in s2 glaciator and befana and style queen and gorizilla, in s3 weredad and desperada, in s4 glaciator 2 and ephemeral and strike back. I think the only time ladrien got less than marichat was in s5 but even then there was deflagration. So I definitely don’t understand the narrative that ladrien is given less attention than marichat. It’s just that mc stans dgaf about canon and make outlandish claims.

(I think I submitted this ask before but I’m not sure it reached. So I’m sorry for ranting in your inbox twice.)

It did not reach me the first time (yay tumblr!) So good call. I was actually thinking after I responded to a previous ask recently about how people want Adrien and Marinette to breakup to restore balance, and my thought was: what balance? Because you're right the love square has never been "balanced" between the sides. LN and Adrinette always had the most screentime and development, and up until s4 MC actually had the least. Yet, it was the most popular ever since Evillustrator aired. It's only been in the last couple seasons that Ladrien has had less screentime than they had been getting (s4 and 5 didn't have a designated "ladrien" episode like prior seasons, I mean), but we still had some pretty big moments with them.

It's just always some people's excuse to shit on Ladrien because they see it as a threat to their favorite side because instead of recognizing that the love square is the same two people, they view each side as its own ship that's competing with the other 3. That's why the Ladrien tag gets filled with bullshit rankings and favorite ship polls because people don't understand what the love square is or how it operates. The sides aren't working against each other. They're all working in tandem toward one goal: an eventual post reveal relationship between the two where all sides converge and form a singular dynamic. But peoples response to Adrinette being canon just proves that people don't understand that. I think that's the most annoying part of it to me is that it so clearly demonstrates that people don't understand the show/this ship. Like it's one thing to be a bit bummed your favorite side wasn't the one that got to be canon official (and stick for longer than an episode) but it's another thing to claim the show is ruined, it's bad writing, bad for the characters, toxic, unfair, unhealthy, boring, etc.

Honestly, it's so wild to me how this fandom treats the requited sides of the square. Up until s5, people didn't like Ladrien because it was requited and "boring" and "they don't even have to try" and "all they do is blush and stammer" (which isn't even the Ladrien dynamic at all, but I digress) and now that Adrinette is canon I see those exact same arguments being flung. Interestingly, I saw posts after Elation aired from MC stans whining that MC is boring and "like Ladrien" now, and it honestly melted my brain a little. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of ships that they get together? Is that not what we want? I'd get it if it were some random background ship with no hope of ever coming to fruition but this is the flagship of the whole show. We are supposed to want them to like each other back and get together...

This fandom is a cesspool honestly. I see people hurt themselves in confusion every day about this ship. Ladrien has always gotten the short end of the stick in this fandom, for no real reason other than people are weird and lack the ability to comprehend the media they consume. It's annoying, but that's what the block button is for. 🤷‍♀️

#cat replies #asks #s5 discourse #ml fandom salt

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