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pinktom · 5 months

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What do you think pink about tomarry content creators getting abusive tomione asks suddenly? First obsidian, then I saw one more account getting and now seminar arts. Is it only one person doing all this?

Btw my jaw dropped with your no filter answer where you said that whenever harry comes the chemistry between to marry best tomione 🤣. I would love to hear more of your no filter thoughts

I have no doubt those asks were sent by trolls. I, however, am simply a hater—I see an opportunity to hate, justified or not, I pounce. x]

In ascending order, here are the reasons I think Tomione sucks.

PS: If you know this post is gonna piss you off and press "Keep Reading" anyway - that is entirely on you. Send me anon hate and I'll assume you're a masochist who wants me to spank your pert, round hinie and call you a naughty, naughty girl.

“Book nerd loves book nerd uwu” trope does not fit Tom Riddle, and I find it obnoxious.

Like I touched on when I was first sipping on that haterade, Tom Riddle values usefulness. By this logic, you could easily contrive up a scenario in which he wants to use Hermione’s skills for whatever reason.

However, the route that is usually taken in Tomione is that Tom is … impressed … by her intellect. A woman… who is… smart? He’s intrigued. 😏 He’s never once met a smart woman in his life before. And certainly not one so independent and feisty. She doesn’t swoon over him like the other girls do (eye roll).

I never got the impression anywhere in canon that Tom Riddle cared much about intellectual pursuits beyond those which were immediately useful to his goals, so for the very basis of a relationship to be his interest in her brains – to me, it’s tedious and off-base.

And also icky honestly lkjdflkj. Hermione’s two crushes are on a couple of stinky smelly boys (Krum, Ron), where the hell do you go off acting like she wants some mysterious, twisted dark boy? I’m offended.

Absolutely zero chemistry; once Harry steps in, it’s game over

Because these characters lack any common ground, shared values, or compelling circumstances that tether them together, there is zero chemistry. You can try to fabricate those things with a little bit of crack!cocaine, but then you’re forced to contrive a lot of additional personality traits and circumstances that diverge them from their canon selves. (Which yes, you can do, but it only works if you’re gonna do something really interesting.)

As much as people like to har har about how canon doesn’t matter, here’s the truth: yes, it does. Our communities only exist because we’re referencing shared source material. However much you can bend characters around, everyone knows each character has an essence that just “feels like them” on a deeper human level.

As such, we all know Tom Riddle and Harry Potter are intrinsically connected to each other. In Tomione this presents a conundrum. I could cite dozens of fics, but I’ll stick to two very well-written ones I enjoyed.

In one of them, Tom was a criminal and Harry was a detective on his tail; no matter how many times Tom fingered Hermione, he was always more entangled with Harry, because the stakes and intensity between them were so much grander. Same thing with the other fic but amplified by the Horcrux bond. At their very first encounter, when Tom and Harry laid eyes on each other, they both immediately felt an arresting connection, with distrust and intrigue. Hermione instantly paled in comparison in both stories.

It’s just like the moment Harry steps into the frame, you see how transparent and superficial the “commonalities” between Tom and Hermione ever are. Books and cleverness - oh but Harry, there are more important things! Like being spiritually linked! And sharing unique and intimate traumas in common!

Heterosexual Tom is truly disgusting to read about

Look–it’s a matter of taste. We’re all products of our environments. For me, no amount of feminism or fantasy can overrule everything I’ve seen and experienced in my life. ( ಠ_ಠ )

I don’t enjoy reading about women in relationships with men who are controlling, violent, and selfish. Even the way Voldemort treats Bellatrix in canon always makes me wince, because I see it like this … here’s this girl who grew up proud; who was beautiful, rich, extremely gifted and powerful; and she turns into this horrible sniveling creature. Say it ain't so! I wish she'd killed him when he broke her ass out of Azkaban.

But back on the topic of Tomione specifically — I think there’s another layer to it, which is the greasy self-insertion aspect which makes me uncomfortably aware of how much the author’s ginie is tingling at the idea of Tom Riddle lifting a brow and saying, “Is that so, Miss Granger?” while she scowls and tells him to fuck off !!!

It’s of course not the self-insertion in itself that’s icky. It’s more just that the type of person who wants to self-insert into that particular heterosexual scenario is, uhh, too basic for me and my big powerful fujo brain.

And I guess that's gets me to the very core of why I find Tomione basic, trifling, and underwhelming.

Tom Riddle is allowed no faults whatsoever in Tomione

Oh, sure. He’s controlling. He’s mean. He grabs her wrist and says, “What were you doing talking to Malfoy?” 😠

But so... ? Tom Riddle is a deeply embarrassing, mentally unwell trainwreck of a person. He's so much grosser than that. Yet you do not get that feeling at all in most Tomione fics. His worst character traits are often there but they’re made to seem sexy and flattering at all times.

I’m not saying your run-of-the-mill Tomarry fic doesn’t suffer this fatal flaw too—but when it comes down to it, Tomione doesn’t allow for his unsexy fallibility, period. Because the sexiness of the ship really depends on heteronormative romantic tropes and fantasies, which tend to be quite rigid and narrow.

And I understand and empathize with why this is; just look at Reddit, so many women in heterosexual relationships already must put up with mortifying, embarrassing, and unhygienic things (y’all know which posts I mean 🙁).

That’s just not what I’m here for. I love Tom Riddle because he’s a superficial narcissistic lunatic with no self-awareness and emotionally stunted outlook.

I don’t want to hear how he terrified the orphans if I’m not gonna hear about how he pissed the bed and got his bare ass whipped by a mean, toothless matron for chatting in sermon. I don’t care to see him bossing around those wimps at Hogwarts if there’s not at least one student who looks at “ENEMIES OF THE HEIR BEWARE” written in blood and feels tummy-churning secondhand embarrassment.

#tom #server #asks #offensive content #anti tomione #shipping wars

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biochem-in-training · 11 days

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Everywhere I see, there's always a ship pairing battle between Kataang vs Zutara vs Zukka. But what I have seen so far in both Tumblr and Twitter (or X 😒):

Kataang (Katara/Aang) shippers are the worst bullies you would ever see. With their childish excuses and constant harassment. There's even worse things from them that could be triggering for some people. I understand it's canon (I know man, it's everywhere 🙄), but don't boast it. On this day and age, the tropes for Kataang would be unacceptable, for example, lack of consent or lack of meaningful conversations between two people (both from Aang, sorry kid). In contrast, I like their artworks; it's fun and cheerful. In the past, I had seen Kataang shippers who were neutral to other ships, but that's rare these days.

Zutara (Katara/Zuko) shippers are humble or passionate (depends on the person), supportive and have the best resilience than all the ships. I've seen some people writing University-style essays about why Zutara is better, with actual evidence and quotes from the show, that would make literature professors proud. Also, I love witnessing how they defend or provide comfort whenever someone is bullied or harassed. Additionally, they create beautiful artworks. Unfortunately, I hear a few Zutara shippers bullying others, but I've not witnessed it so far. I would be disappointed and angry if I do see it.

Zukka (Sokka/Zuko) shippers are chill. I love their quiet emergence and possibly overtaking both ships, like a renaissance. They don't argue or bully, rather just stand back as wallflowers; I would like to be with them in that situation as well. Besides, Zukka is Zutara, but with more man-to-man tropes. I like their artworks - it's comedic like a rom-com style and it does make me chuckle - and their neutrality to anything. Fortunately no homophobic comments from other ships against them, but I'll be very pissed if someone would do that.

[I acknowledge there's also Taang (Toph/Aang), Sukka (Suki/Sokka) and Jinko (Jin/Zuko), but I always see positive contributions to all of them, with no negativity. So I don't mention them. There's also Maiko (Mai/Zuko)... but that's another story to tell.]

But come on, let people enjoy their favourite ships or even just the show! I'm not against any ship pairing as everyone has their own favourite thing and all of us are unique. I've seen way worse in Bridgerton shipping wars between Kanthony (Kate/Anthony) and Polin (Penelope/Colin) on Twitter, but I like both ships!

#avatar the last airbender #shipping wars #analysis #kataang #zutara #zukka #sorry Aang you deserve better

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tawney-bee · 5 months

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There's gotta be something scientifically deeper with whatever the hell is going on in bakudeku hate.

People who love toxic romance tropes, who ship characters that literally kill/try to kill each other, absolutely strangle at this ship when Katsuki was being abusive back when he was 14 and has been through active soul-crushing development ever since then (if you don't like toxic tropes that's okay, but these people are just being hypocrites. Plus, considering current manga events, i dont even think bkdk counts as a toxic trope anymore).

And not just on his side, Izuku learned to focus on himself and become more confident after the abuse he endured in middle school. They are currently Horikoshi's main and only focuses, he's putting all of the plot attention on these two. These are basic things you'll understand if you go through the manga or even if you're just observing the plot in fractions.

So I'm being completely serious; there must be some sort of psychological influence going on here with how absolutely despised Bakudeku is despite just being another funky mlm anime ship if you look at the surface. And I don't think it's about the shippers, because a big portion of the hate is completely towards the ship. Like it’s a red cape and these people are bulls.

I cannot speak on how toxic bkdk shippers were before 2020 because I wasn't there, but from my current experience bkdk's are the ones dealing with the toxicity being thrown AT them more than being toxic themselves. It takes one bkdk being toxic and bad for all of the normal ones to get hounded, but it's completely okay to send violence and death threats over this fictional ship?

I wish I only enjoyed rarepairs, they never have this kind of drama.

#mha #my hero academia #bnha #boku no hero academia #bakudeku #bkdk #dekubaku #dkbk #izuku midoriya #katsuki bakugo #mha manga #midoriya izuku #bakugo katsuki #bakudekubaku #bkdkbk #dekubakudeku #dkbkdk #shipping wars #shipping drama

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vaguelyaperson · 1 year

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there are two ways a fandom responds to conflicting headcanons

#toh #the owl house #huntlow #toh winter #hunter noceda #willow park #transmasc hunter #transfem hunter #trans hunter #shipping wars #fandom discourse

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hazbinbossbrainrot · 3 months

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Dustmoth / Radiohusk fans: Eww! You like Huskerdust/Stolitz? That’s so toxic! Don’t you know that’s Stockholm Syndrome?

Stolitz / Huskerdust fans:

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blueratgrmln · 3 months

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🌟OPEN DISCUSSION about the 2020's era of shipping culture, Sonadow in the Sonic Fandom, and how well-intended activism can circle back to the language and violence of oppressors 🌟

(Link to chapter PARTS >>>HERE<<<)

INTRO

I gotta get something off my chest in regards to shipping. I wasn't super invested in the shipping part of the Sonic Fandom community when I was growing up. There were a few ships I liked and I enjoyed the fanart people made of those ships. And then I forgot about it for a number of years. Now in adulthood I am getting back into shipping Sonic characters a bit more, because it's fun to look back at the things I liked as a kid and seeing how my opinions have changed since gaining more life experience. Plus I've become much more active on the internet, in Fandom spaces, and more aware of social justice issues during adulthood. So here is a long-ish essay where I gather my thoughts about Sonadow shipping, fandoms, and activism together💙

MIDDLE CHILD EXPERIENCE IN THE SONIC FANDOM

It's odd being a Middle Child of the Sonic Fandom "family" that grew up during the age of "cringe culture" cyberbullying and shipping wars. I was aware of the stereotypes and disdain people had both on and off the internet toward the Sonic Fanbase and the notoriety it had. It influenced me to tone-down my external Sonic geekiness around my peers. While some of the stereotypes had some truth to it (when they weren't used as cyberbullying put-downs), I noticed that there was a very prominent difference how the Sonic Franchise/Fandom was viewed by the pop culture savvy public and how the fandom acted amongst/within itself as a creative and meaning-making community, despite the in-fighting that occasionally happened. On the internet, I oddly didn't experience or witness much discourse about ethics, specifically about shipping, when I was a kid cruising the internet for the fanart I liked. The spaces I visited were usually very supportive of people creating meaning, joy, and comfort with these ships. These shipping spaces loved Sonic × Amy, Shadow × Amy, Knuckles × Rouge, Sonic × Sally, Silver × Blaze and also any ship between Sonic, Shadow, and Silver. While there were specific ships that I enjoyed, I was happy to see other people enjoying other ships and hearing them geek about it. Yes, there was sometimes shipping discourse pitting pairings against each other, but I did not notice intense targeting or harassment in the name of "ethics" to the same degree as I am witnessing nowadays.

THE ETHICAL VS UNETHICAL DEBATES

Fast forward to the 2020's age of the internet and fandom culture. I had no idea what the evolved discussion about "ethical vs unethical" shipping was beyond just "this ship is the best" mentalities until about a year ago. After reading about the various viewpoints, I started out not really caring about the ethics of fictional shipping and not fully caring on which "side" I would fit, even though my views in adulthood realistically lean towards anti-censorship sentiments. However, it's important to note that if I'd discovered this specific "ethical vs unethical" debate when I was younger, I would have leaned pro-censorship, a view directly influenced by the small-town evangelical church indoctrination that kept my mind closed-off from the nuances of sociology, psychology, and humanity. I was the type of person that got emotional and reactionary about the idea of people being sex workers, about the idea of kink and BDSM being a normal thing between consenting adults, and about other socially charged topics. Then as I learned from other people's experiences and researched those topics, my mindset changed to be more supportive and more aware of all the nuances that go beyond black vs white thinking. I learned to not demonize people and instead find out the reasons WHY something happens or WHY people do something, and actually LISTEN to the person and BELIEVE them when they give their answer. Similar mindset changes have happened in adulthood since I've done research about both the generational divides and social justice intersectionality of this cultural shift in today's internet Fandom spaces. I am noticing this divide and these debates happening more and more in the Sonic Fandom.

SONADOW IN THE 2020'S

For some context, when I was a kid moderately involved with shipping content, I did not ship Sonic × Shadow. I somewhat avoided anything to do with gay ships or gay content due to my small-town church upbringing teaching me to not support anything LGBTQ+. So now as an adult having interest in shipping again, having discarded homophobia, embracing my own queerness, and having new understandings of the Sonic characters' personalities/backstories/dynamics, I am opening myself up to considering ships I hadn't been interested in before and ships that I actively avoided due to internalized homophobia. Watching Sonic Prime and the wonderful joy it sparked across the Fandom (in both shippers and non-shippers alike) was the marker when I finally started enjoying the Sonadow ship. It was after reading people's interpretations of Sonic and Shadow and understanding the ship more when I realized why Sonadow is such a beloved and timeless ship. In response to the new wave of Sonadow popularity, it's getting lots of heated criticism. People are having arguments everyday about both Shadow and Sonic's true ages, whether Shadow is 15 or 18 or 50, whether it makes any difference that SEGA quietly removed the characters' official ages. The debate creates these polarized "sides", with some people on one side claiming that it's an inherently unethical ship and claiming that you are a bad person, or at least suspicious in some way, for supporting it.

REPRESENTATION & QUEER JOY

One prominent feeling I have about the common criticisms toward Sonadow and about other shipping discourse is feeling alarmed that a lot of Queer people end up getting harassed because of these debates, sometimes by fellow Queer people. From my Middle Child perspective in the Sonic Fandom, the reasons WHY many people embraced LGBTQ+ Sonic ships was to create and celebrate representation in a franchise that doesn't outright confirm or have much on-screen representation. Even though Sega has a general "no official confirmed couples" mandate, the company has consistently supported and encouraged the fans' shipping headcanons including LGBTQ+ ships, and the company has showed real, tangible, and financial support for the LGBTQ+ community (to my knowledge). Tangle and Whisper in the IDW comics are written with specific chemistry that leads most people to view them as a lesbian couple with the writers' and company's encouragement, even if they're not verbally stated as "officially canon." Sonic × Shadow, although not canon, has been a noteworthy ship acknowledged by the writers, company, and voice actors as being one of the most beloved and celebrated gay Sonic ships. It has given Queer people a sense of joy, hope, comfort, and visibility ever since 2001 when Sonic Adventure 2 released and Shadow debuted as a character. The reasons people immediately shipped these characters together was never about being creepy or encouraging "unethical" dynamics. It was simply Queer Sonic fans, both closeted and uncloseted, creating meaning via representation as an act of queer resistance and radical acceptance. This has been a constant throughout the present day, Sonadow being one of the most recognizable and longstanding ships that inspires widespread Queer Joy that even breaks the boundaries of the internet microcosm.

LANGUAGE AND VIOLENCE OF OPPRESSORS

Now is where I will delve into the connection between Sonadow shipping (and overall shipping) debates and how well-intentioned activism loops back into mimicking oppressors. Thinking about how Sonadow is historically important to the Sonic Franchise, the Sonic Fandom, LGBTQ+ Sonic Fans, and maybe even video game history as a whole, I feel major discomfort and even dread when I see so many people (particularly those that are young) throwing around very serious accusations at (fellow) Sonic Fans and (fellow) Sonic shippers. Accusations supporting pedophilia or pedophilia itself is one of the most egregious. I've seen it thrown at Sonadow shippers, Vector x Espio shippers because Vector is 20 and Espio is 16 (despite it being another extremely popular LGBTQ+ headcanon-ed ship due to lack of representation), and even Knuckles x Rouge because Rouge is 18 and Knuckles is 16. It strikes me as counterintuitive and unnecessary at least, and actively dangerous at most/worst, seeing fellow Queer people utilizing the morality-policing, fear tactics, surveillance methods, censorship mindset, and rhetoric/language of our oppressors and using those things against the people in their own communities. Realizing that long-time Sonadow fans who felt inspired to come out and be unapologetically Queer because of that specific ship have been facing harassment and slander from fellow Queer people (who are likely younger than them), getting called "pedos" or "dangerous" or "suspicious" or "unethical" over the mere act of creating representation and Queer Joy with fictional characters and seeking some sense of comfort while surviving homophobic environments...bluntly, my stomach is churned and my blood is boiled. The last thing we need in this rapidly backwards-turning world is more in-fighting within the broader LGBTQ+ community that distracts our thoughts, emotions, time, energy, organizing, education, community-building, and activism away from the oppressors who are causing us real-world tangible harm, suffering, and death.

A random teenager on the internet drawing fanart of Sonic and Shadow holding hands, or even random adults on the internet drawing suggestive art or outright porn of these characters, is NOT going to be the catalyst that rapidly or gradually normalizes pedophilia or inspires worldwide support for unethical relationships. And yes, this includes content about the "weirdo/unethical/dark" ships that are found in the shadowy fringes of the internet and Fandom spaces. I am uncomfortable with a lot of it myself. But those ships and the people that engage with them ALSO DO NOT have the same level of impact and reach (key words: Same Level) that real life oppressive systems have to cause widespread suffering. The key difference that makes widespread abuse possible is that the real life oppressive systems are disguised as wholesome safe environments that develop trust and closeness with community members. Those oppressive systems and the harmful people that support them are usually NOT on the freaky/dark/weird fringes of society, they don't outwardly appear that way, and they demonize the "degenerates", not associate with any such label. The Catholic church institution is a big example, the institution covering up uncountable cases of their clergy members abusing minors while those clergy members are positioned as a pure, trusted facet of society that people actively look to for guidance, safety, and belonging.

At NO point am I ever going to say that everyone online is perfectly pure and that we should ignore everyone's behavior online. When we do encounter legitimate creeps causing harm to real people (not watered-down definitions of what being a creep means) we absolutely need to call them out and keep each other safe. HOWEVER, by pitting fellow Sonic Fans, fellow Queer people, fellow shippers against each other with this blanket "us vs them" mentality that overshadows the real life patterns and signs of how widespread oppression and real life harm happens, we end up accomplishing a lot of what our oppressors want anyway: divisions, distractions, and outright mimicking the violent language and behaviors that they display toward us at ourselves. This is the point where well-intentioned activism goes wrong and circles back around to oppression without meaning to.

Many people are super-duper-sure that they have dismantled all of their -isms and -phobias and now identify with labels and movements that are on the right side of history. But all of us STILL need to be aware of the fact that our thought patterns, behaviors, logic, and emotional responses can be tied to previously held beliefs and mindsets, and they can sometimes carry over and linger in our minds even after significant "character development". This is true even if we don't immediately realize it and think that we are a "safe person" within our own marginalized communities and for other marginalized communities. It can be really hard to identify if/when that is happening sometimes, but it is pertinent that we are actively checking in with ourselves, listening to constructive criticism, and cross-analyzing whether we are unintentionally mimicking the language, behaviors, and violence of our oppressors, and what effects that can have on the people in our shared communities and the people we care about.

ADDITIONAL: MY PERSONAL OPINIONS AND LOGIC ABOUT SHADOW'S AGE

Most of the fandom will continue arguing about Shadow's "true age" for the rest of time and how that "should" influence people's shipping headcanons. In my opinion, it is a very unnecessary thing to argue about simply because of the uniqueness and the fantastical nature of Shadow's existence within the Sonic Universe. Very specifically, he is a test tube science project super soldier who is immortal with an unclarified "birth date."

It's most likely that Professor Gerald Robotnik started the process of creating Shadow AFTER Maria was born and they discovered her incurable disease; Project Shadow could have taken a significant amount of time to complete considering all of the scientific processes, research, and intergalactic communication needed. It is also important to remember that Maria died when she was only 12 years old. If we are just talking about the amount of time that Shadow was physically and mentally conscious, communicating, and learning (excluding the 50 years he spent in cryo-stasis), this would mean that Shadow's age could be anything up to Maria's exact age at her time of death. Realistically his youngest possible age would be much greater than 1 day, since it probably took a noteworthy amount of time for Shadow and Maria to develop their trusting best friend and/or sibling bond.

Otherwise, in the less likely scenario, Professor Gerald could've had foresight and somehow gotten confirmation about Maria's condition before she was born with the scientifically and medically advanced technology aboard the Space Colony ARK, and then completed Project Shadow before she was born. But in EITHER possible chronology, Shadow could be around the same age or a handful of years younger than 15 (one of the possible ages in this debate), if we are to consider his game manual or Wiki-page biographies for his true age. This could put the Sonadow ship in the same boat of age-gap and maturity-difference criticism that the Sonic x Amy ship gets because Sonic is 15 and Amy is 12.

Even though Shadow is one of the most complex characters within the broad Sonic Lore, at the same time he's one of the most mysterious characters, especially since we don't have any official content that shows the complete scientific/medical/technological details of his creation process from start to finish. Everyone has a different opinion whether the game manual and Wiki-page age(s) indicates Shadow's number of conscious years lived, his current physical age, or both. People also debate whether his current physical age matters in terms of shipping ethics. Considering that Shadow is an immortal science experiment with the DNA/blood of an alien species and he could have grown up in a test tube, I like to think that any of the "teen" ages used in this debate could simply describe what his physical vessel looks like (compared to 100% Mobian hedgehogs) at the point Project Shadow was deemed successfully completed. It's possible that his early development deviated from that of a human baby, a Mobian hedgehog baby, and a normal hedgehog baby. Maybe he grew generally faster or went through the same developmental stages of his Black Arms alien siblings. Deciphering what it would mean for Shadow to become "fully mature", or even what "age" in general means for him, would require solving the complex puzzle of his circumstances: the science of genetic engineering that splices Black Arms DNA with Mobian hedgehog DNA to design a being that is artificial and specifically exceptional in every way. We DO know that Shadow's Black Arms DNA gives his mind and body a connection to the species' Hive Mind (which is explored in the Archie comic books) and that Black Doom's DNA was one of the necessary ingredients to give Shadow immortality and disease immunity. But that's the extent of what we know about Shadow's Black Arms biology, its overall effects, its benefits, and its downsides. In addition to this, the "immortal artificial super soldier with alien DNA" context brings up questions regarding Shadow's mental processes, intelligence, and learning capabilities. He could have gone through rapid psychological development, or can learn and gain skills at an enhanced rate, have increased intelligence, or have alien mental capacities beyond his connection to the Black Arms' Hive Mind.

The limitless SCOPE of possibilities for Shadow's physical and mental reality is why I completely avoid any attempts at shoving this complex character into the same quantifiable boxes of human OR Mobian OR normal hedgehog maturity, development, intelligence, socialization, emotions, learning, and age. Which is why I do not judge people for their shipping preferences and don't assume the worst of the people that ship him with other characters. An integral part of the tragedy and isolation of Shadow the Hedgehog as a character surrounds him being the Ultimate Lifeform, a being that is so unique, advanced, artificial, medicalized, scientific, revolutionary, mystical and powerful that he cannot relate to most of the other Sonic characters and vice versa. TRYING to force Shadow to be 100% understandable, relatable, and quantifiable both by our real-life human standards and by the standards of the other Sonic characters can diminish his uniqueness and essence, and it hinders the broad Sonic Fandom from creatively exploring the magnitude of possibilities (both shipping and non-shipping) that his mysteriousness inspires.

(Thank you for reading and sticking with my train of thought! :) I expect constructive conversation in the comments if any are made at all, whether it's criticism or agreement.)

#sonadow #shipping #shipping culture #sonic fandom #sonic the hedgehog #shadow the hedgehog #sonic and shadow #shipping wars #debates #open discussion #fandom culture #antishipper #proshipper #LGBTQ+ community #LGBTQ+ activism #LGBTQ+

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junkopottershima · 1 month

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An Early 2000's Child's Observation on Zutara Shipping War.

I awoke from my slumber upon discovering the Avatar fanbase, and the absolute shipping war that I never really gave a shit about until now. Zutara is a relatively new ship to me, as is any other ship that isn’t canon, so I’m gonna run through the list of anti-zutara arguments that I’ve found, and list out my takes on them. I’m doing this, because although I see lots of love for Zutara, there’s some aspects about Katara and Zuko’s relationship in the show that makes me question how well their “chemistry” would actually work. For that, I’m genuinely curious and even politely asking “Zutarians” to please step up and respond with their takes on arguments against Zutara. Though, I should mention that there's going to be some anti-zutara takes that I don't agree with. I'll just be getting them off my chest. Welp, here we go now:

"Zutara can't work because it's Oppressor x Oppressed".

I've seen people saying this, and then saying that you can only "truly" agree/disagree with this point if you're an oppressed ethnicity, class, or whatever. Well, I guess as an African American woman, I honestly think the argument that "Zuko and Katara absolutely cannot work out because he's the colonizer and she's the victim" is rather dumb and blatantly ignores the fact that Zuko was trying to change his ways. Like, that argument is so stupid to me, it's almost offensive. We see Zuko change and try to keep changing his perspective on other nations and foreigners, and the step he takes to do that is by standing up to his father on the day of the eclipse and declaring his new mission to find and help Aang and his friends stop the war. Ozai wasted no time trying to do what he wanted since day 1 of Zuko's life, which was to end him. Zuko put his life on the line to change his ways. If we're going by the logic that Zuko can't be healthy for Katara because he's an oppressor...what the fuck was the point of him trying to gain their trust and trying to help Aang take down his father...if he's an oppressor? If we're going off the logic that Katara should not trust Zuko because he (more like his father and father's army) is an oppressor, shouldn't that apply to the rest of the Gaang as well by the fact that each of their nations and cultures were/are threatened by the Fire Nation? Going off of that logic, it becomes easy to say that Zuko should have never gotten a chance to even be friends with Aang, Sokka, Katara, Toph, and Suki just because his family consists of war-mongering assholes, but why would anyone say that when it's shown that Zuko is actively trying to change his ways at that point? Also, if we're go there (the colonizer stuff), it's almost like saying white people should never be dating any nonwhite solely because many whites in positions of power abuse it to subjugate nonwhites. It blatantly ignores the real-life contexts and instances where individual whites mean no harm and are able to get along with other races. It blatantly ignores the instances of whites being able to find genuine love with people from other races, even in hard times like the Civil Rights Era and various wars. We can see that it's fucked up to generalize...so why do we gotta do that with Zuko? Keep in mind, I'm talking about the point where Zuko is officially redeeming himself.

"It would make no sense for Katara and Zuko to end up together at the end--They only had limited time together".

Now this, I definitely agree with. I understand that Zutarians loved the hell out of Zutara and rooted for them to be together at the series finale, but the in-lore time and development Katara had with Aang, and Zuko with Mai is objectively more grounded and overwhelming than all the "evidence" that Zuko would have had a great romance with Katara. Even with Zuko having redeemed a lot about himself in his arc at season 3 and AFTER Katara learns to trust him, there's literally no time for them to develop any romantic feelings or a relationship because Sozin's Comet was just like several days away at that point. Even in the catacombs of Ba Sing Se, Katara's moment with offering to heal Zuko's scar and to really establish a bond was interrupted by Aang and Iroh before she could waste her spirit water on him--THEY HAD NO TIME. Meanwhile, Mai and Zuko were childhood friends, and knew each other for basically their whole lives. Plus, they were dating throughout the series. In practicality, isn't it going to be Mai that would make the most sense as a love interest due to the fact that of all candidates, Mai understands Zuko the most? Isn't it Mai that Zuko has took the time to write a letter for in the prison, smile and laugh for? With Mai, we see Zuko at his most happy. Point is, Mai is objectively a very important love interest to Zuko, so even though they broke up several times before, I don't think Zuko is the type to just throw his tears away and immediately move on. I mean seriously, Jin was more like a rebound fling and Zuko didn't even blink when he dipped back to the Fire Nation. And I don't think I need to pull up the entire show just to list examples of Aang and Katara having each other's backs and developing an unbreakable bond. Zuko and Katara didn't have the time to develop romantic feeling for each other at their best and even if they had an infatuation for one another, wouldn't Zuko's bond and romantic feelings for Mai predictably just bubble to the surface again? I mean Zuko lost no sleep when he basically ditched Jin and went straight back to Mai. No offense to anyone who loves Jin/Zuko, I'm just telling it as it is.

"Zuko does not consistently consider Katara's feelings".

Again, this is true. After returning to the Fire Nation, Zuko isn't shown to be shaken by his betrayal to Katara. He's just not thinking about her during his time back home. But what I definitely want to talk about is the part where he joins the Gaang, and Katara is vocally distrustful of him. This is the aspect of Zuko and Katara's relationship that has always stopped me from actually shipping them together. Katara is vocal, again and again, that she doesn't trust Zuko because of his history with basically being a serious asshole bounty hunter for the avatar, because of him betraying her trust back in Ba Sing Se, and the fact that she personally blamed Zuko for her mother's death due to associating him with Fire Nation scum. Now while Katara is clearly bothered by his presence in the Gaang, Zuko literally didn't care and was on-board to keep on trucking. It's only after it gets too annoying does Zuko now care about Katara's feelings, and what does he lead with? "This is so unfair!". Upon confronting Katara about her feelings, Zuko immediately declaring that Katara was being unfair just reveals that Zuko was thinking more about himself in this moment. That Zuko didn't do anything wrong, that Zuko must not have done anything wrong because Zuko does not even remember what he did to piss off Katara. Katara is the one that has to check him by explaining why she doesn't like him: his betrayal, her perception of his affiliation with the Fire Nation, and PROBABLY the fact that he sent 'sparky sparky boom boom' man after Aang. Right after that, Zuko goes to see Sokka about he and Katara's mother, and while that's very considerate of Zuko...it shows that he's kind of ignorant about properly apologizing for his wrongs. He skipped doing any apology for what happened in Ba Sing Se, and went straight to "Okay, what's the deal with her mom?". It's nice that Zuko gave Katara the option to do a Quentin Tarantino mission on the dude that murked her mom, but the fact that Zuko put Katara's vocal disapproval and Ba Sing Se event kind of on the back burner of his concerns isn't quite a good look. It shows that Zuko, although in redemption, still possessed from listening problems.

Also, when searching for different takes on Zutara, I found a post by a particular user that I don't remember. But basically, in critiquing Zutara the user mentioned Katara threatening Zuko that she would "end his destiny personally" was 'abuse'. I believe this user is called, 'erin-the-brave'. Well in my opinion, that just wasn't an intelligent perspective on Katara's dialogue. In Katara's perspective, Zuko has been chasing her, Sokka, and Aang across the world to capture him, which to her would mean the doom for the world. Zuko taunts Katara about her mother's necklace, using it to try bringing her into giving up Aang. Zuko is randomly living in Ba Sing Se, and right after she has a short bonding moment with him, he immediately choses to help Azula kill Aang. Zuko then sends an assassin after Aang, in which that assassin locks Katara and Toph up in a jail cell as bait. I get that Zuko helped free her dad and Suki from prison, but goddamn, how the fuck else do you expect Katara to react to Zuko's sudden redemption? Even if he IS trying? Katara isn't a fucking mind reader. Like how did you genuinely expect her to react? "Oh you poor thing! Let me welcome you with wide open arms so I can kiss your ass and wipe it with a sample of spirit water"???

"Oh Katara's being abusive to Zuko because she was telling him that she'll end his life if he hurts Aang again, even though Zuko HAS repeatedly tested everybody in the Gaang". Could it serve as an argument that Katara wasn't given much time to learn with, and trust Zuko in order for a romantic relationship to work? I think so. But would I say Katara's reaction to Zuko's second redemption is 'abuse'? No. I think it would be overreacting to even call that verbal abuse, because in Katara's shoes, who wouldn't be wary of Zuko?

"Zuko was pushing Katara to be a murderer in The Southern Raiders, he was bringing out the worst in her".

I actually disagree with this. Zuko merely told Katara that he knows the guy who killed her mother, and that would help her find him. If I recall correctly, he didn't push or pressure her into actually killing him. He merely offered her a journey to find the fucker who took her mother's life. Katara contemplating murder, going on the trip, and even blood bending during the mission was 100% her own choice. The fact that Katara almost instantly chose this journey with Zuko seems to imply that this was something she always wanted to do, but just never got the chance for: confronting her mother's killer. Even after Katara chose not to kill the guy, Zuko didn't hold her choice against her. He doesn't belittle her, nor did he ever pressure her to twist Yon Rha to death like a pretzel. Zuko actually tells Katara that her ability to be better than Yon Rha was a person strength, and Zuko even seems proud of her in that moment. He gave Katara the chance for closure, she took it, she tackled the confrontation in her own way as Zuko let her have her spotlight, and they walked away with him being proud of her.

"Zutara would be better if you just replaced Zuko with Azula in the ship".

This is a joke, right? Because the only way this could get funnier is if you threw in Ozai.

"a fic which does 'ATLA’s plot goes almost exactly as canon, except my favorite ship happens' is not clever or innovative".

....it's fanfiction with endless creativity, writing styles, and brains behind it. Rewriting the show's beginning, midsection, endgame, or all of the above is objectively creative and at least a little innovative. Fanfiction absolutely can be creative and innovative, you don't have to lie just because you don't like a ship, my brother.

"Katara offering to heal Zuko's scar is actually evidence that she does NOT fully understand Zuko"

I've seen this take and I think it's one of the best arguments against Zutara, to be honest. A user named 'Maikingsenseofit' explained it so well, I'm just gonna copy and paste it:

"Upon seeing his scar, her immediate thought is to use spirit water to heal it. While this is an outstanding demonstration of kindness for someone she is not obliged to show it to, let’s remember that right before this Zuko says:

“It's okay. I used to think this scar marked me. The mark of the banished prince, cursed to chase the Avatar forever. But lately... I've realized that I'm free to determine my own destiny, even if I'll never be free of my mark.”

This. Right here. It is so important to understand. Zuko’s scar is so much more than a scar. It represents his trauma from his father, the trials and tribulations he faced to earn Ozai’s approval, and is a further reminder that he is the black sheep of the family both figuratively (a son who could never live up to his title, who could never bend like he was supposed to) and literally (the only member of a pristine royal family with an ugly brand on his face).

But his journey with Uncle Iroh in Ba Sing Se allows him to come to terms this trauma, or moreover this scar. It’s a reminder that we cannot escape our past or try to stifle it. We must embrace it and learn to accept it. It is only then that we are fully liberated from the shackles of our trauma and can fully determine our paths forward.

Katara’s offer to get rid of Zuko’s scar represents a regression of Zuko’s hard earned realization. He had just come to terms with his troubled past and accepts the ephemeral mark on his face. He even wears it with pride. He doesn’t try to hide his past or stifle his trauma, not anymore. It is an integral part of who he is. It is what makes Zuko, Zuko.He vocalizes this to Katara immediately before this. Katara however, fails to understand the significance and the journey behind this mark, largely in part because she wasn’t there to witness it. Her attempt to heal his scar falls flat in several ways, but one main reason is because just because something is healed physically, doesn’t mean it’s healed emotionally. But it’s important to consider something else here: Zuko never explicitly asks Katara or verbalizes a desire to get rid of his scar. Based on the earlier conversation, he’s finally gotten around to embracing it and welcoming the significance behind it. What Katara offers is in stark contrast to what he said. He allows her to touch his scar, but it is evident that she would never heal it. Why?

From Belen Edwards, despite the traumatic memories associated with his scar, Zuko never seems particularly ashamed of it. Throughout season 1, his hairstyle ensures that it's completely exposed, showing his identity to the world. In the second season, Zuko tells Katara that he's beginning to accept that he won't be rid of the scar.

And yet despite hearing the last part, Katara still offers a solution to Zuko to get rid of it.

This is where we see that the so called deep understanding and caring that Zuko and Katara held for each other is beginning to crack. Where is Katara’s deep and profound, soul-ular (get it, like cellular?) understanding of Zuko that no one else, other than Iroh, had of him? It begs us to ask if Iroh was in that room, given the journey he embarked on with his nephew both physically and emotionally, would he have encouraged Katara to get rid of this mark? The answer is obviously no. If there is a deep vulnerability and intimacy that they share with each other, and no one else, it does seem pointless given on both ends neither understands the full depth of the other’s situation. This is exemplified by Zuko immediately forgetting his entire interaction with Katara (but not His interaction with Aang interestingly) afterwards and still failing to understand why Katara was mad at him, even AFTER she explicitly tells him. And this is exemplified by Katara not fully acknowledging and understanding Zuko’s acceptance of his scar and offering a surface level solution that will never address the emotional significance and tribulations that come with it. Nothing against either of the characters by the way, and I need to emphasize that in bold font. I am simply observing their interactions and dispelling these “Word of God”-like claims.

Consider Zuko’s interactions with Mai. When he first sees her after years of banishment she gently his scar and touches in it not in an attempt to get rid of it, but because it is a part of Zuko. And when it comes to kissing Zuko, it means touching his scar, touching him in his entirety- including his physical and emotional marks. There’s a deliberate reason why the storyboard artists included Zuko’s scar in the scene. Because she’s known Zuko her whole life and was there when he first received it. Zuko and his scar are not two separate entities for her. They are one and the same"

End dialogue.

What should be mentioned is that Zutarians do like to say that "Katara is the first person to ever touch his scar"...which to be honest, I just don't believe. I just don't believe that Katara got to touch his scar before Iroh or Mai ever did, because it would insinuate that Iroh and Mai have never caressed the side of Zuko's face to comfort him, and after all those years of being close with them. Then there's the claim that Katara is the only person Zuko opens up to in the Gaang, even though he talked about some of his feelings to Toph, talked about some of his feelings to Sokka, and talked about some of his feelings to Aang. When Zuko snatched Aang and hustled themselves into a cave in the middle of blizzard nowhere, Zuko opens up about his rough childhood to Aang. Yes, Aang wasn't conscious to listen, but Zuko DID talk to him. Perhaps Katara is the first member of the Gaang that Zuko opened up to (the "mom talk" in Ba Sing Se) without the other person being too out-of-conscious to listen, but she's definitely not the only one that Zuko opened up to. She's technically not the first person to give Zuko a chance, but Aang was the one who did it right after he was freed by Zuko (who was disguised as the Blue Spirit).

"Toko = Zutara = Zukka = just about any fan pairing/OT100 involving Zuko".

I don't entirely agree with this. For context, a user by the name of 'atla-recluse' posted this in regard to Zuko shipping:

"Toph, who actually wanted to go on one just to hang out with him. Toph, who tried to speak to him about her personal struggles (as they walked together in search of Aang). The sort of thing an actually compassionate and reflective boy would have at least tried to sympathize with, even if only briefly. Instead, he immediately shuts her down. Seems he didn’t have a second to waste on some dumb little girl, right? This same girl who would later on take moments out of her time to sit down with him and comfort him (The Ember Island Players). Someone’s always there when he wants support. An emotionally volatile 12 - 13 year-old comforting an even more emotionally volatile 16 - 17 year-old. Not a good look. And yet…Toko = Zutara = Zukka = just about any fan pairing/OT100 involving Zuko. And the reasons why they’re shipped always seem to be the same, save one little difference here and there. It’s always about pleasing Zuko and his you-know-what. Pardon the innuendo and my mood."

I agree that Zuko was kind of a jerk to Toph with how he dismissed her, even though he dumped his emotions out and let her give some reassurance. Zuko went on a journey to free Hadoka from prison with Sokka, and Zuko went on a journey to give Katara closure for the fucker that murdered her mother. Although Zuko has streaks of selfishness in his good deeds, it should still be noted that he does care enough about Sokka and Katara to help them in regard to their families. Meanwhile, Zuko factually never even said Toph's name during the entire show's runtime. I'm not saying that Zutara is a perfect ship, but I am saying that it IS different than Toko.

The Final Point to mention: They just ain't into each other".

And although I like checking out Zutara fics and seeing what creative combinations the Zutarans had to bring for over ten years, I still don't truly ship Katara and Zuko because they're just not into each other. Look at the Ember Island play scene that depicted Katara and Zuko being secret lovers in an affair. They literally cringed away from each other. They didn't blush or smile, they CRINGED.

So far, those are my takes on this apparent "war" with the Zutara shipping. So here's where I casually call up hardcore Zutarans to ask a genuine and polite question: what is your response to these arguments against Zutara? Will you still ship them after these arguments? I would really like to know your perspectives, and to see if my mind can change. I don't hate Zutara, though I'm not sure if I ship Zuko and Katara either. Again, that's my actual take, and I would super like to read what Zutarans would like to say about all this.

#zutara #pro zutara #anti zutara #shipping wars #avatar the last airbender #atla #analysis #debate #katara #prince zuko #zuko #the gaang #atla gaang #argument

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