#qitn speaks

[esther-dot]

Arya fit into a glove the description of the perfect monarch that Varys used to describe Young Griff:

“He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry.”

There was a reason Arya loved listening to her father talk with his subjects and takes note of lessons he gave to Robb as his heir. Arya is noted to be better at math than her sister. In Braavos, she starts learning many different languages under the tutelage of the Faceless Men, including Braavosi, Pentoshi, Lysene, High Valyrian, and the trade talk of sailors. Currently, her Braavosi is at a passable level, though she could still use some practice.

“He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid.”

This has been Arya ENTIRE storyline. Arya’s resourcefulness and quick thinking enable her to survive alone in the slums of King’s Landing for a time, she slept in the streets and survived by catching pigeons, and escaped the city by joining the Night’s Watch prisoners. She traveled Westeros by foot, as a ragged child whose most valuable possession is a sword and is forced to steal to survive, having to hunt her own meals, cook her own meals, was captured and forced into slavery at Harrenhal, she looked for shelter among the common people in the scene where her and the Hound receive help from the old farmer and his daughter. She saw with her own eyes the destruction and misery the War of the Five Kings brought to the people of Westeros and she understand how devastading war can be for the weak and poor. Arya forms close bonds with the smallfolk and make friends from all types of backgrounds, regardless of social status, which is noteworthy to point out in such a classist feudalist society as Westeros is.

So, by matching Varys’s description perfectly with Arya’s storyline, GRRM was clearly giving us a hint about Arya’s final destiny. After all, Arya is technically the lady of Winterfell already because the Boltons are using her name to hold the North and there are Northern lords rising up to fight for her.

I'm assuming this is in response to this ask.

I admire everyone who is willing to put themselves out there and write meta. I don't write my own, so I don't want to minimize the effort it takes. However, since the claim is that this is evidence of the author’s intention, I have to disagree. Years ago, when it came out that he wants to write follow-up adventures for Arya elsewhere, not in the North, he ended the Arya as QitN endgame question for me. The QitN isn't gonna be running around Braavos solving murder mysteries. (I believe this is something he mentioned himself once, I think I first heard it in a clip of a Q&A, but I can't find that rn).

Generally I'm happy to entertain a variety of spec, and I'll talk a little about the passage you point to as evidence of QitN Arya below, but I have to say, this isn't a topic I'm gonna be moved on. I believe what you've found is what most of us find as we read/reread the series. Similarities between characters because they're often used to approach similar ideas from different angles, but that doesn't mean the purpose of a passage is foreshadowing for that other character.

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them." (ADWD, Epilogue)

I've said before, this does not truly speak to any of the Stark kids. Aspects of it apply perhaps, but none of them fulfill this ideal in which we're being told that Aegon was an excellent student who mastered all the classical/religious education as well as having an understanding of an unprivileged life.

Arya does learn languages, I'm not dismissing that, or the fact that she loved sitting with her father and listening to the stories people shared with him, but we are specifically told that she ran away from her Septa to get out of lessons. Not just sewing, history lessons too. We are told that in contrast to herself, Sansa knows sigils and poetry. And even though she also hides her true hair color and goes into hiding, I'm not gonna say this passage is about Sansa because a) there's nothing the author does to insert her into this convo, b) half of it doesn't apply.

So, you can understand why I squint at your conclusion and ultimately can't accept it as the author's intent. I could put my thumb over the page and argue it's about Arya, Bran, or Dany, who have all suffered hardships, but if I look at the entire quote, it doesn't perfectly apply to any of them. Arya and Dany lack the successful, extensive formal education, Bran lacks the experience with the smallfolk. I think this passage about Aegon is about...Aegon.

I appreciate Arya's intelligence, I enjoy her, it's admirable how much she connects with the smallfolk in a way that sets her apart from most of the highborn, and she does have that beautiful theme of justice/mercy running through her story, but all the same, it's a notable aspect of her characterization from the beginning of the story that she was not into formal education which is half the point of the Aegon passage, so you're not going to convince me that Martin was thinking of her --or any Stark-- when writing that.

As for your closer:

Arya is technically the lady of Winterfell already because the Boltons are using her name to hold the North and there are Northern lords rising up to fight for her.

It isn't a fair reading to conclude that the North is particularly loyal to Arya. The Northern lords want to save Ned's little girl because he was a good lord so they remain loyal to his family / want to save his child as a result. It says something good about him and about the Northmen.

The fact that the Boltons have a girl and are claiming her as a Stark to hold the North only sets the stage for them being overthrown once Theon and Jeyne's story is out and then a Stark succession crisis between any/all of the Starks upon the revelation that they're alive. I've talked in the past about the fact that while the Starks may not be power hungry, there are going to be factions promoting different heirs since each has a major detracting factor, but each also has a claim to consider. The Northern Lords simply aren't gonna hold out for a LoW Arya because Ramsay lied about marrying her when there are older heirs/male heirs around as candidates. That is, if Bran and Rickon return, or if Robb's Will pops up. Any/all of which seems more imminent than Arya's return to the North.

I've mentioned before Martin's inspo for Arya, and even though fans might enjoy seeing her take a traditional female role and shake it up and reorder it to her liking, I do not think that is the ending he set out to give her. Instead, it sounds like he wants her to be free to not marry and free to have adventures which is a lovely ending for her and one that would be fun to read--if he'd finish his main series and write some of those followups!

#dot chat

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

I've come across your Jonsa metas and love your insight into this couple. Makes me feel not crazy for reading into everything that we've seen and heard between Jon and Sansa. As I've been reading your metas, I started wondering why Dany was so intensely focused on Sansa. I mean it's weird right? Dany appeared to be quite upset about one person not liking her. But that shouldn't have mattered to her because it wasn't necessarily going to stop her from getting the Iron Throne. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on this? Was Dany's dislike merely jealousy because of Jon? Or was it just insecurity as she's not had many beautiful women to compare with? Or was it something else?

Hi @bluedaffodil21! Thank you so much, you are too kind!!! =D I apologize for the delay in my response.

I think Dany was so intensely focused on Sansa for two reasons: 1) because Sansa was representative of the North/Jon while also being the one that Jon seemed to listen to/have respect & affection for, and 2) because Sansa appeared to be the ruler that Dany herself could never be (meaning Dany had tried but failed in Mereen & then wasn't wanted in Westeros and yet, as she saw it, this girl had the respect and love she wanted without even trying). So I definitely think jealousy plays a role in it and not just due to Jon. I also think that Sansa was also a representative of the reception Dany was getting from Westeros since she arrived there. Here, Dany's manipulative tactics don't work and the person that sees Dany for who she is, who has the love she doesn't, and can't be manipulated is a real threat. If that makes sense.

I think when Jon bent the knee and gave the North away that he did it for two reasons: to protect the North from the NK (as we already knew) but also because he knew Sansa could lead the North if he couldn't (not that he thought she would be named QitN or would want her to be if Dany took over but he knew she would speak for the North and lead them if they all survived). Which to me just cements that link Jon and Sansa have when it comes to Dany, that Sansa is the part of Jon (and the Stark/North part I guess) that she can't bend to her will. We see Royce's deference to Sansa in Dany's presence, we see Theon returning to fight for "Lady Sansa", we see the Northern Lords' respect for Sansa when she speaks in the Great Hall, we even see Jon agreeing with Sansa over Jaime and no one protesting, and we see Tyrion noticing Royce's deference to Sansa as well. So for Dany, I think Sansa was the ultimate threat, even more than Cersei. While Cersei had one thing she wanted, Sansa had the other: people's love and respect. And then for Jon to have it as well when she talks about it in 8x04, that infuriates her even more. Which is why I think Sansa comes up in conversation in that 8x04 scene (besides the truth telling part of the convo). Dany is airing out her grievances against the two who would be a solid power couple and for Jon to not only have the claim to the IT now, but also to have respect and love for Sansa as well, oh does that burn Dany deep down.

So I think that's why Dany is so focused on her. And It's fascinating to me because not only the Jon/Sansa connection which solidifies them even more, but also it solidifies the parallels/connection between Sansa, Cersei, and Dany even more. Truly fascinating stuff.

I hope I was able to answer your question. Thank you so much for the ask! I LOVE talking about GoT, especially when it comes to Jonsa and/or Dany. So thank you! =)

I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day!!! <3

#ask #ask answered #jonsa #jon x sansa #dany and sansa #dany critical #due to reply #got #game of thrones #bluedaffodil21

[badbedforbedding]

But Sansa never wanted to rule (like a man, like a king), she wanted to become queen consort.

Yes, I guess you are right anon but at the same time I find it hard to know what exactly does she want.

I mean, Sansa wants to be Joffrey's queen at first.

"I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies."

But then she thinks about how she would want to be loved by the smallfolk:

"[...] though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me."

I agree with you on that point of ruling, but she is so young when she starts dreaming of those things that I don't think she really understands what the job of a queen really entails. Rather, she longs for the love, the favors, privileges and all the glory that comes with the title.

When I said that Sansa could be QitN if she puts her mind and all her evil side on it, I was speaking out of frustration, sorry :). I don't think that is possible even if something drastic happens.

But the way some people put it, it would seem like being Queen is the ultimate win for her. Which I don't agree because that would mean another marriage for her, with god's knows who; and having to be in constant alert of people trying to take her place.

Can I just wish for the girl to have some peace instead?

P.s: I really respect Sansa as a character, even tho she is not my favorite, and being a SA survivor myself I have I lot of empathy for her and I can't help but wish she could get out from under LF creepy thumb.

#ask #sansa stark #asoiaf

[alicentes]

do you think Arya or Sansa would've been better at ruling the north?

I think the best outcome would have been Arya and Sansa ruling the north together.  Ned himself would agree; “In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths.” Like I've said before both women have different skills and where Sansa has the knowledge, patience and political experience in dealing with the lords, Arya has the experience in dealing with (and living amongst) the smallfolk and would ensure that their needs were being met as much as the needs of any highborn. 

Arya and Sansa are two sides of the same coin who are stronger when they are together (sorry if you hate one sister and stan the other but it’s true) and Ned himself said they need each other:

"So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you.”

 This to me means that the north would prevail with both sisters working together, There was never meant to be just one stark ruling alone, They should have been ruling together. The show should have ended with Jon north of the wall maintain an alliance between the wildlings and the north, Bran as lord of winterfell, Sansa and Arya ruling the independent north together and maintaining an alliance with the other independent seven kingdoms. This is what “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives” should have meant. That the north would thrive with the Starks working together. 

#Sansa would have the title of qitn and arya would be given a new title on the same level. the first ever elected representative of smallfolk #arya stark #sansa stark #game of thrones #asoiaf #I wont ever choose between them because I think they both should have equal roles of power in the north #area would also allow democracy and hold elections to make sure the small folk actually wanted her speaking for them

[argelladurrandaun]

When arya said 'i dont want to be a lady' what she meant was she doesn't want to be the kind of lady septa mordane is teaching her to be. She wants to be her own kind of lady. Something she doesn't know exists. Because the only ladys she knows are her mother and sansa. She thinks thats the only way to be a lady anything else is not a lady at all. She doesn't know a lady who is like herself. If her aunt lyanna was alive, she wont feel so alien and alone😢.

Antis calim her 'i am not a lady' means she doesn't want power at all and just wants to be free. But she does want power. She asked her father if she could perhaps be a kings counsellor.

And the only thing she wants to be free of is the petriachial performative aspect of being a lady. Namely, sewing, needlework, teaparties and gossiping. She is led to believe that that is all being a lady means. Arya has no interest in these things. Thats why she said she doesn't want to be this kind of a lady. Arya wants much more from life. She wants womens worth recognised. She wants to change things instead of meekly following the petriachy.

I saw an anti saying that arya doesn't want responsibility of her position, of being a lady. And nothing could be further from the truth.

If Arya didn't want responsibility of being a lady of house stark she won't still be fulfilling it in braavos. Where she is even supposed to forget that she is Arya stark yet she can't let go of her stark-ness even if her life depends on it. She takes it upon herself to bring dearon, a deserter of the nights watch to Justice. Because she feels thats her duty and responsibility as a stark. Thats how much being a stark and responsibility and dunty is ingrained within her.

Arya also feel responsible for the northern soldiers and lords held prisoner in harrenhal. She successfully planned and executed their coup all on her own. With her idea of 'weasel soup'. Thats another time she felt responsible to do her duty as a stark. Even if her own life was in danger she felt as a stark, its her duty to free them. No one told her to. Its something she wanted to do on her own. Arya is responsible and she takes her responsibility as a stark very seriously.

Arya is a stark through and through. thats why the antis claiming that arya cant be the leader of house stark because apparently 'she doesn't want it' is a very laughable argument because at one point or another robb, jon, bran and ned stark all have said a variation of dont want it, they all doubt themselves just like arya does. and think they are not good enough but we know that they are still good rulers. Nobody deems that they cant be lords/kings because of that. Because that line is meant to be subverted. Aryas arc, her skills and achievements subverts the 'i am not a lady' line. Antis aka sansa stans only use aryas moment of insecurity against her for obvious reasons. And egnore her actual accomplishments.

What arya doesn't want sitting and gossiping and sewing. Which she is led to believe is what ladies do, since has more outdoor interests she thinks that she is not a lady at all. Obviously now that she has seen more of the world she would know that thats not all there is to being a lady.

Being a leader(lady of winterfell/qitn) is a completely different thing. Something which comes naturally to arya. Arya always preferred to spend time with her father watching him rule. She can manage a household, she is good with figures, she can speak multiple languages, she can detect lies. She can be diplomatic, pretend and manipulate when needs be. And arya has always been good at reading people.

One more important aspect of being a good leader is inspiring loyalty and getting people to like you. Arya has done both. Arya would make friends with anyone. She inspires lotalty and makes an impact wherever she goes. The brotherhood is looking for her, people of winterfell like harwin fondly remember her and would bend the knee to her, the Northern lords are willing to fight for neds little girl.

And since the antis only cherrypick words and omit all context, maybe they didnt read the whole sentence.

"I'm not a lady, I'm a wolf. "

#arya stark #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #Arya stark #robb stark #eddard stark #jon snow #lyanna stark #bran stark #catelyn tully stark #arya being a leader #being a wolf #a song of ice and fire #anti sansa/jonsa stans #anti sansa stark

[reginarubie]

The younger, more beautiful Queen - Cersei and Sansa (and Daenerys and Margaery; and Brienne of Tarth)

When Cersei recalls Maggy the Frog's prophecy about her being casted down by a younger, more beautiful queen we were all ready, thinking that younger, more beautiful Queen was supposed to be Sansa; then Margaery entered the picture and how could anyone actually ignore the dragon queen in the east and the threat she posed to Cersei and everything she stood for?

At which point many theorized each and every of three girls, younger and all described as beautiful may be the younger, more beautiful queen and would fulfill a part of Cersei's prophecy, each taking something she cared for from her. Which has many merits, especially thinking about how much Martin dislikes prophecies and likes playing around with them nudging towards the realization that we as people are the one who make our own destiny with Cersei being the real catalyst of everything Maggy the Frog prophetized for her.

Under the cut, my own personal vision of this prophecy and why I think that, no matter who will actually cause Cersei's downfall directly, Sansa (assuming she ending as QitN is also book!endgame, which we have good reason to believe it shall be so) is actually the younger, more beautiful queen.

People way more talented than me have already talked about this matter, but I wanted to give my input about it as well because I like to talk and this has been sitting in my files way too long and now I've decided to share with you all to see what you think about it.

Beneath her golden curls, the girl's face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died. "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be ... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her."

Maggy 's prophecy has haunted Cersei all these years since first the words had been uttered and it's no wonder. Now, we know Cersei married the king - Robert Baratheon, first of his name - after he had won the Realm through conquest and we also know that the other part of Maggy's prophecy, about Cersei having three children and the King many more than her. So it stands to reason that this part may also come to be true in some way or the other.

Though show!canon has derailed and distanced itself from book!canon, it must hold some kind of importance that Cersei asks Jaime to find Sansa and kill her especially if we connect it with what child Cersei told Maggy the Frog "if she tries I will have my brother kill her"; while she easily, in the show, decides she will be the one to cause Margaery demise as well as Daenerys's.

But let's break the prophecy and try to determinate what exactly it may mean to Cersei now.

Maggy tells her that she will be the Queen for a time, which we know to be the truth, and that she will have three children while the king (Robert) will have over seventeen. She also tells Cersei that one day another may come, that she will be younger and more beautiful.

Note, the first person we know Cersei describes as beautiful, by her words, is Sansa both in show and the book.

In the very first episode of the series, when Martin was still very much part of the writing process of the episodes, Cersei comments on Sansa's beauty and on how it would be wasted in the North (foreshadowing in my opinion Sansa growing past her enamourment with beauty and return North to stay, but I digress).

While in Sansa VI, AGOT, she states "such a beautiful child. I do hope you know how much Joffrey and I love you"

Also, note that this is said about Margaery Tyrell in AFFC in Cersei III: “When all the vows were spoken, the king and his new queen stepped outside the sept to accept congratulations. "Westeros has two queens now, and the young one is as beautiful as the old one," boomed Lyle Crakehall, an oaf of a knight who oft reminded Cersei of her late and unlamented husband.”

(Guess maybe it can’t be Margaery after all tho I do remember someone saying someone else, someone younger — Catelyn about Sansa — would grow even more beautiful than she was and though she did not mean to confront Sansa with Cersei, but with herself, the phrasing did stuck me as strange)

So this girl coming to cast Cersei down will be younger (and all candidates for the place are younger than Cersei) and more beautiful (now this could be as simple as a math count of how many times each candidate is described as beautiful and confront that number with Cersei's).

The counts now stands as following:

Sansa: 18 times (without sharing those times with anyone, all on her own; 2 times she is defined as more beautiful than someone older)

Drawing by @innocent-enyo; sorry I took your pics, I fell in love with them! If it bothers you I will take them down!

Cersei: 17 times (thyo sometimes shared with Margaery so the counts, if we count the shared times with Margaery goes up to 20)

Drawing always by innocent-enyo.

[honorable mention] Brienne of Tarth: 8 times (wouldn’t it be just perfect if Brienne did manage of convince Jaime to fuck loyalty and follow her instead of Cersei? Oh wait… that’s already show canon) after all if every girl can be the another younger, more beautiful who will take (something) everything from Cersei why not Brienne the Beauty?, especially since it’s said sarcastically yet she is far more fair and beautiful in character than Cersei is. I would appreciate the irony and the twist, all I am saying 🤷🏼‍♀️

Drawing by Lucas Werneck.

Margaery: 7 times(of which 3 shared with Cersei)

Margaery Tyrell by innocent-enyo as well.

Daenerys: only 5 times (?! I am surprised as well, tho to be fair she is described as the most beautiful woman in the world once and she was asked if she had grown more beautiful in a lapse of time, but never confronted to another older)

Daenerys Targaryen by innocent-enyo again!

So we have a neck-to-neck between Sansa and Cersei.

And tho I do think each girl will fulfill part of the prophecy (to save Margaery from her marriage to Joffrey he is killed, which catalyses the series of events which brings to Tywin’s death and Myrcella’s; Brienne did convince in the show Jaime to leave Cersei behind for a time; Sansa took her legacy in a way becoming the second ruling queen of a kingdom of Westeros; Margaery in a way took away Tommen as well in the show since learning of her death he committed suicide; Daenerys took the throne and the promise of the child in the show) I think Sansa will be in the end the younger more beautiful queen because the stress on the prophecy is put on the fact that this Queen will take everything Cersei’s holds dear…

…what did Cersei want? [note; now we enter in the show only realm and book hypothesis of the story since we have yet to see the last two books]

To save and protect those she loved; she failed by her ultimate fault;

have the younger, more beautiful queen and enemy killed by her brother (lover)

To sit on the throne as queen regnant because she feels she deserves it.

To be with the man she loves publicly.

What did Sansa achieve by the end of the show:

She marched her troops South and managed to get Jon free and her plotting assured that her siblings were safe (they protected her as well)

Her “brother” (lover?, Martin I have faith in you) killed her rival (Daenerys) to protect her and their family.

She gains the North independence and is named Queen in the North and is the queen with the strongest power love and loyalty (“Ned Stark’s daughter will speak for them, she’s the best they could ask for” and “we didn’t choose you to rule us m’lady but perhaps we should have”)

I truly believe in the books she will end up (or it will be hinted at) with a man she loves or will grow to love.

So, imo, while each and every girl may take something from Cersei and perhaps none of them (fAegon I’m looking at you, sweetie) or only one of them will manage to directly cause her death and defeat in the end Sansa will be the younger, more beautiful Queen because all that Cersei held dear and wanted she managed to achieve and she will be remembered the way Cersei wanted to be remembered, which is ultimately imo the true meaning of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy.

#younger more beautiful queen #asoiaf theories #cersei lannister #sansa stark #daenerys targaryen #margaery tyrell #brienne of tarth

[alicenttully]

Sansa knelt at the feet of her future queen. "You do me great honor, Your Grace."

"Won't you call me Margaery? Please, rise. Loras, help the Lady Sansa to her feet. Might I call you Sansa?"

While it might not be obvious at first, George does in fact use this scene to hint at Sansa’s endgame here. 

This is because Margaery never actually becomes Sansa’s queen, at least in the sense that Sansa believes she will.

She's to be queen now, she's beautiful and rich and everyone loves her, why would she want to sup with a traitor's daughter? It could be curiosity, she supposed; perhaps Margaery Tyrell wanted to get the measure of the rival she'd displaced. Does she resent me, I wonder? Does she think I bear her ill will-?

"Go on." It was Margaery who urged. Joffrey's own queen-to-be. Sansa did not know how much she had heard.

Whenever Sansa thinks of Margaery being queen it’s as Joffrey’s wife.  She has no idea of the plans to kill Joffrey at the wedding and Margaery to Tommen in his place.

This carries some pretty interesting implications.  By killing Joffrey at the wedding, the marriage was never consummated.  This doesn’t make Margaery and Joffrey’s union unlawful but we do know that there is precedent for unconsummated marriages to be set aside.  Without that marriage Margaery wouldn’t be a queen.   Furthermore, Jaime points out that the same applies to her marriage with Tommen-

Jaime sighed. "Then let them wed. It will be years before Tommen is old enough to consummate the marriage. And until he does, the union can always be set aside. Give Tyrell his wedding and send him off to play at war."

Secondly, after Sansa escapes the capitol the day of Joffrey’s wedding, she never thinks of Margaery as her queen or being the queen even though by this point she knows she’s been wed to Tommen.  

In contrast, it’s Cersei who she still considers as queen.

All of Sansa's resolve had withered in the face of her aunt's onslaught. Lysa Arryn was frightening her as much as Queen Cersei ever had. "He's yours, my lady," she said, trying to sound meek and contrite

but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear.

Petyr's friends at court had sent him word that the queen had men out looking for the Imp and Sansa Stark. 

There are a number of reasons for this.  Firstly, Cersei is still meant to be the queen regent.  Secondly, it’s because its Cersei who was queen when Sansa and her met, and I believe she’ll be exactly that to Sansa until Cersei is disposed of.   Tommen is doomed, and Margaery & the Tyrells are likely to be caught in the crossfire.

Therefore, what does this mean? Well, ultimately I believe George is using irony to demonstrate that Margaery will never become Sansa’s queen because Sansa’s endgame is QITN.  There are heaps of foreshadowing for this in the books but one detail that is significant in this scene is the way Sansa is helped to her feet. As an independent kingdom, the North won’t “kneel” to the South, and the way Margaery does it actually makes me believe this will be very similar to the way I believe Bran will acknowledge the independence of the North.  It’ll be diplomatic.  Margaery also speaks to Sansa as if like Bran, she and Sansa were sisters.

#sansa stark #queen sansa #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #antis don't interact #if you disagree then just like... ignore

[nerajaana]

i dont know if sansa stans are calling arya ugly, but sometimes i think its her own fans the ones that think she is inferior to sansa. when im trying to read a jonrya fic or just an arya centric fic is always 'oh yeah, she is pretty but not as pretty as her sister, bc sansa has shiny red hair-WHO CARES? im tryng to read an arya fic, i dont want to read about fucking sansa. "Sansa is always the beautiful one in the family, ONLY HER, all the men fall in love with her". Arya can be femenine too, she is not going to be a ten years old girl forever, she is probably going to be trained as a courtesan in braavos, she has learned a lot of political views, she can wear dresses too but no, she is always dirty and insults everyone, specially men. There isnt wven a lot of queen arya fics, when its more probably her the one that would be crowned qitn in the books instead of her sister. No one ever mention she is a princess. Thats why sometimes i like to read sansa centric fic, bc sansa is always appreciated and loved for some reason by everyone, arya instead is always angry and full of unrealistic feminists speaches.

Nonnie, here's the fact: fanfics that capture the true character of canon Arya Stark are very, very few in number. As for the jonrya fics, I'd only trust a handful of writers to do their characters justice. Majority of the fics have the d&d's version of arya and if the summaries have any buzzwords like "she wanted to be a knight" run. Run for the hills and never look back. We just have to make peace with the canon material and the ridiculously low number of book!arya fics (and gods will i always be thankful for those absolute gems, their works are just incredible af, irrespective of the ship)

Those who believe themselves to be arya fans and still get her horribly wrong a lá dumpster and dipshit, well it speaks volumes about their inability to think beyond the stereotypes and the boxes people tend to place characters in, doesn't it?

#stansas call arya ugly in many colorful ways without using the word ugly-trust me i've witnessed that blasphemy more than once in 1yr #since i've started engaging with the fandom #arya stark #fanfiction #asoiaf fandom #a song of ice and fire #jaan got mail #to the writers who get arya right every time you sit down to write something: y'all are heroes and i love you to death #thanks for sending the ask nonnie...feel free to rant away here!

[ladyinasong]

What are the implications of Sansa wearing gloves ?

Until seeing that picture of the gloves, it didn't hit me that Sansa was even wearing any during her coronation.

According to this post written just before s8, Sansa wears gloves in every single scene in s7 and never once takes them off. That detail always stuck with me, although it's not entirely accurate – to the best of my knowledge there are two scenes where Sansa is gloves-free (both in 7x06), but you can still contrast that with the rest of the season where she does indeed cover her hands, many times while indoors.

It's not hard to infer meaning behind Sansa's costumes, but those quotes by Michele Clapton in the linked post spell it out. Sansa's costumes are a reflection of her journey and her state of mind. With the gloves in s7, and considering the timing (Ramsay dead, being back in Winterfell as lady of the castle, in a position of power for the first time, Jon's absence for most of the season and feeling estranged from her returning family members), it ties into Sansa's trust issues notably, speaking of her trauma and abuse, and further hints to the fact she doesn't feel fully safe yet, both physically and emotionally.

While Sansa's outfits don't change much between s7 and s8 in terms of the severe silhouettes, the gloves do come off with regularity in s8, which I was happy to see as it signals ongoing progress, so it saddens me a little that they were back as part of her coronation attire, which is the last outfit we ever see her in of course. I'm no expert on British monarchy, but since many have commented on potential parallels between Sansa and Elizabeth I, a cursory google search seems to indicate the latter didn't wear any gloves during her own coronation in 1559 (and neither did Elizabeth II in 1953 fwiw), so the argument Sansa's gloves are a nod to British history doesn't look likely. Additionally, the coronation scene takes place in the Great Hall, not outdoors, so it's also unlikely the gloves are simply a practical wardrobe choice to ward off the cold.

What is the function of Sansa's gloves in her coronation scene if they have one at all then? They can very well just be a fashion statement and nothing more, but considering they've held meaning in the past, their inclusion can also be interpreted as a regression of Sansa's state of mind, the tension between the knowledge there is no higher position of power attainable now she's become QITN, yet it's insufficient to make her feel safe and here results in a doubling down of the attempt to control her environment by preventing physical touch. Her guard is up again. Sansa, after all, is now alone and lonely as she was for so much of the show, as all the people she loves and trusts are away from Winterfell. Because we've seen that her loved ones were helpful in soothing the long-lasting/permanent effects of Sansa's trauma, it stands to reason that now she's isolated from them after progressively opening herself up – and not without difficulty! – to the benefits of that support system from s6 onward, Sansa would struggle.

And not that I ever thought everything was just fine and dandy for Sansa or that her future could only be bright and free of struggle (beyond characterization, there's a reason why Sansa's gowns still were what they were), but the gloves really drove home all of the above. Two steps forward, one step back... I just couldn't help these thoughts.

TL;DR: the implication of Sansa wearing gloves during her coronation is that she's suffering a setback in her journey toward healing, signaling a rise of her caution once again after she progressively started opening herself up and feeling more at ease, and confirming she's not only alone but feels lonely.

#inbox #sansa stark #ch: sansa stark

[janiedean]

@seethemflying I think Sansa is in the next bracket down of important characters (with Jaime). In the outline, they weren't named as one of the big five, but in the process of writing have grown more important. No way is Sansa's ending going to be anything like Show Sansa's, though (and same with Jaime tbh).

agreed but lemme take a second from cramming to rant about this because I honestly have An Issue

in the sense: I 100% agree that both jaime and sansa are next bracket/secondary main (speaking as someone whose top five is made by ppl who are either secondary main or tertiary main if they have a pov like.... I'm not gonna argue that theon is a main fiver bc he's in my top three) but like what I can't deal with is the following as in that the main five are the main five bc they have in between them all the main themes george wants to tackle + the main plot stuff except for the 'romance is my #1 sense of existing in the plot', as in:

jon is azor ahai + has the chosen one deconstruction trope going on + most likely has the 'I never wanted to be Important™/have a throne but I'll have to for duty' ending + identity arc ie if he's not jon snow first of his name i'm eating my hat

dany has the dragons + the targ ancestry deal + 'I thought I wanted to rule but actually I don't I just want to help ppl' storyline (which is the hill i'm dying on)

bran has the oH WAIT fisher king deconstruction going on + the magic™ storyline + he's most likely kitn + he's tied to uh the literal rebirth of the continent so + how to deal with disability storyline

arya has the I NEED TO REALIZE WHO I AM storyline + the learning to be yourself as a gnc woman storyline + revenge is shit storyline + I'll become a skilled assassin and choose not to act on it unless absolutely necessary storyline + trauma/ptsd storyline tied to losing your own identity

tyrion has the shakesperean hero thing going on as in I have to make peace with the fact that I killed my father/did mistakes + overcoming the societal issues/problems/the prejudice most ppl have for him that’s caused by his disability storyline + he's the only one of these five who doesn't have any magical stuff in his background/only has his brain to rely on + overcoming his family's legacy and making it better storyline

now: a bunch of other minor/secondary characters have all of this (I mean idk theon and jaime have identity + learning to deal with/overcoming societal scorn given by them being disabled/having become disabled in various ways + ptsd, brienne has the gnc woman thing etc) but like each single one of these characters only lacks the OH I HAVE A BIGASS GREAT ROMANCE WITH MY BACKGROUND (I mean gendry exists to be arya's LI but idt it's gonna be important in her future storyline the way it'll be in brienne's to say one).. which oh wait SANSA JAIME AND BRIENNE HAVE, because guess what that's the next secondary bracket where those three characters have it as a main part of the story which is exempt from the politics angle (bc none of them is tied to the iron trap by the plot no none of them jaime doesn't want it, brienne isn't a contender and sansa was supposed to be queen in the beginning so she's obviously not going to be that later no not even qitn that's gonna be bran) and here falls the entire shebang because what half of this fandom doesn't seem to get is that *drumroll* george's favorite angle to tackle when it comes to romance is... THAT EXTERNAL BEAUTY IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING AT IN PEOPLE AT THE END OF IT AND GUESS WHAT THAT'S THE MAIN POINT OF ALL OF THEM PLUS THE KNIGHTHOOD DECONSTRUCTION THING and with that I mean:

not counting that sansa's reaction to trauma is written to be specular and opposite to arya's as in arya tends to lose sight of herself/becomes someone else/resorts to violence to survive sansa never loses track of herself/her innate kindness which... is smth I wish dnd remembered, the thing is: sansa is presented in the beginning as 'i'm a twelve year old with all the issues with shallowness a 12yo brought up like me can have and everything I want from life is a good love story', which... guess what she's 100% going to get except

characters need to have an evolution, if sansa wants a handsome pretty guy who'll make her queen in the beginning and she has to realize joffrey was The Worst, do we really think her endgame is being queen of a handsome nice king when her entire schtick is liking songs about knights and wanting true love and someone gentle and brave blah blah? no, and that's exceedingly obvious when the text throws at you in the face that her only two actually viable choices for LI - sandor and tyrion - are.. guys who are either disfigured or disabled or traumatized or all three of them but are actually good people and she has to learn to see beyond looks, and no one else fits that bill period - sansa isn't getting with a pretty guy who'll make her queen, sansa will find love with a guy who's nowhere near pretty or handsome but will love her for who she is and that she will see the good behind the not-handsomeness dot and she'll prob go back north with him and be happy advising bran bc she learned stuff in court at most and I'm dying on that hill, bc again the entire point of her sl is having the nice good love story where she sees beyond external beauty which has been clear from page five of her first pov imvho

never mind that again she wants to be a queen in the beginning and then she realizes it's shit so why would she be one in the end? like not to be that asshole but george isn't exactly pro monarchy and it's obvious he's not going to paint it as an inherently positive thing

this attaches back to the fact that there's a whole knighthood deconstruction happening for which sansa has to realize that the gallant/true knights are not the ones who seem that/look like it/flaunt it around

which brings us to the fact that oh wait sandor and jaime in themselves are true knights in spite of the fact that sandor refuses to even consider himself one and jaime thinks he fucked it up and no one sees them as such

and that the truest knight in westeros who will get recognized as such is brienne

who doesn't look standard hot either

and has the love story with jaime right on page

and jaime also has the love story right on page where he has to realize he's into people that aren't c. especially brienne and so on which is what's happening right now like jb recognizing themselves as true knights™ is part of their whole thing like... it's... important

(this counting that san/san is beauty and the beast played straight with sansa as the beauty while jb is the same trope except reversed on itself five times because both j and b are both of them)

and this would also like make utter sense if oh, wait, jb weren't in the riverlands where sandor also is and if oh wait who has sworn a vow to find sansa like again I'm dying on the hill that brienne kills stoneheart, they go on the quiet isle to recover, sandor is like AH YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SANSA and sansa gets rescued in the vale by the only three true knights in these series including the one that's her actual love interest at least the way I see it and where do you think that's going to end yeah exactly

as in: she'll have the umpteenth proof that all the true knights in these books don't look like the songs and she'll get the one she wanted

(also brienne is way more like sansa than arya in personality so like... parallelism of two girls into romantic stuff getting with the guys they like? except that for b. it's relevant bc she's ugly and she gets with hot guy who's into her and for s. it's relevant bc she's hot and she goes with guy-everyone-considers-a-lost-cause showing that they're not exactly a lost cause)

like sansa is there to a) have half of the main love story plot b) as the resident song expert witness what knighthood actually means, jaime is the resident person doing things for love and finding ways to do it that aren't toxic/finds someone who'll actually love him and not what he represents, brienne is the resident 'I never thought anyone would be into me and I'm pursuing my dreams without a shred of hope they'll go well' and she gets all of that and sandor is there to be sansa's LI and to tell ppl that you can go to rehab and have a decent life even if you were used and abused to hell and back (jaime too tbh) and like none of that has to do with the iron trap, the magic, the zombies and whatnot but it's okay because it's their point in the plot and is2g I just wish people would take characters for what they represent instead of shoehorning them into others's themes/stories just because it's what they want for them, the end

(I could rant about the third bracket of characters ie theon & co & getting over trauma/ptsd without the Love Story™ but I have to get back to study if I wanna fill some prompts later so it's not gonna happen for now but... sorry for the rant I'm just really tired of the whole sansastark will get the iron trap and the north and be the ymbq and get with a guy that looks good for her depending on what we ship not considering the overall reaching plot or her book plot and everyone else will have zero relevance in the story because we said so especially when it means giving all of that to a character who is uh not belonging to any of the categories represented by the main five which are actually kiiindaaaa relevant rep but I'mma just gonna shut up here)

#janie rants #janie writes meta #i guess #anti show sansa #seethemflying #janie replies #jaime x brienne for ts #sansan for ts #long post for ts #janie speculates #right i'm back on studying penal law rip #my stuff

[uchiha-no-hime]

About the Jonsa ship

Hi, I saw your post about asking why the jonsa ship is a thing and as a fellow passenger of the ship, I'd like to share my side. I don't speak for everyone simply wanted to share my take.

You know how sasunaru is a thing even tho its clearly never going to be canon but people still ship it. Its kind of the same, we enjoy finding parallels with them. And Regardless of whether or not the ship is canon I enjoyed it because its about the adventure. I like reading people's meta on what they think might happen and their excitement. There are many things i like about the ship but I'm sleep so I'm in a rush to finish this so I apologize if its messy it's 4am here and I havent been sleeping well. 

Point is it does have to make sense to anyone, it makes us happy so we go with it. Just as your ship makes you happy. I wont ever tell you what to like or what not to like. Ots your opinion and their valid but so is mine. I would never try to belittle things you like. Honestly I'm fine with whoever ends up with who because I love the CHARACTERS more then I do a ship. So if Jon and arya happens great because I like them too, i just wanna see how grrm ties them together again because I always views their relationship as platonic siblings. And if its jon and Dany great, I'd like to see how grrm will write their interactions, if its jon and sansa great I'd like to see how grrm would write their romance. The point is I respect ever ship even if I'm not personally a part of it because i have fun on my ship and thats enough for me. So I'm tired of the drama on "which character/ship is better" or "who's/makes a real feminist" can't we just get along? 

I enjoy reading your blog because I adore Arya too, and would be happy if she become QitN or Qof7 ot sails and builds a nation and pack of her own, as long as she's happy. I'll stan practically anything that makes her happy. I just don't think to like someone/something/or a ship we have to drag someone else down. It hurts when the fandom of  two ships or characters i love belittle each other. Everyone can have their own stans and that's fine we dont all have to agree we just have to be respectful I mean we are all part of the same fandom. 

Anyways, thanks for reading my "ireallyneedtosleep" rambling. I don't mean to ofend, its hard to convey tone on text to strangers but I genuinely want to get along with arya stand because I love the stark kids

[esther-dot]

if there’s one thing grrm has been consistently critical of is targs in positions of power, i think jon will never be king of anything 😭

(about this ask)

Good point, anon! I think there’s just so many “king” hints around Jon we’re all searching for how exactly Martin intends that to play out. Some of us have said it might be strictly R+L=J foreshadowing, but a) is Jon even a true-born? As in, if he isn’t, that king stuff isn’t really about R+L=J anymore, is it? (I argue the case that he kinda is here). If he isn't a true-born Targ/heir, then you have to wonder, is it about the fact that Jon could be a king? That he’ll have that opportunity in the North and reject it? Is that enough to justify it all? Or we could step back, perhaps it is not about literal kingship and more, the nature of the character, what he embodies, the fact that he would be a good king?

I personally think Jon having the opportunity to be a king but rejecting it because he feels the burden of that Targ heritage and doesn't want to continue their rule over Westeros kinda beautiful. It speaks to his character. And I prefer Sansa being QitN in her own right, so I wouldn't be mad if Jon doesn't become KitN either. The main problem with the idea that he can't end up in leadership because of being a Targ (which I think is a very real possibility) is, just how much can one guy be punished for the sins of his father? And how do you convey that his choices all along are still meaningful? Dany isn't damned by her family alone, she is making bad choices. So, we would want an ending that takes into account everything about Jon, not just his blood.

#dot chat

[istumpysk]

omg speaking of Val, I saw a post where someone said they shipped Jon x Val because they had “enormous amounts of chemistry” which really made me side-eye them, like that is really not the vibe I got from their interactions?? They have two major solo conversations in ADWD afaik, and neither go particularly well. When Jon sends Val away beyond the Wall to find Tormund, he’s frankly rude during that entire conversation. Val says the air is sweet, Jon says bluntly he can only taste the cold. She kisses him on the cheek and thanks him for her freedom and hope, and he draws back and says the only thanks he wants is Tormund Giantsbane. She says goodbye playfully, and the sentence after is literally “Jon Snow was in no mood for it.” He’s brusque and contrary, wants her to do the job he’s assigned to her and keeps rebuffing her attempts at familiarity. It reminds me of Jon in s7 of GoT, responding to all of Dany’s attempts to get to know him better with a flat look and evasions of the truth. And as we all know, that relationship was just dripping with chemistry 🙄. The only other major interaction I remember them having is the one where Val says Shireen is unclean and should have been killed long ago, which /obviously/ Jon is against but all Val fans seem to forget happened.

Then in the same post they also said that this quote:

“Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. “Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he’s been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.”

was Val actually inviting Jon into her bed, which is frankly a stunning bit of reading comprehension that makes it clear how they got chemistry from that sweetness conversation i.e. by reading one sentence and refusing to link it to the next. The post ended with “at least it’s better than incest!” And yeah, I guess, but that is literally the only thing going for this bland-as-hell ship??

How can you have chemistry with an empty cardboard box? She’s not even real, she’s a composite sketch of a character. If Val was meat, she would have been processed in a laboratory.

I bet you walked away from that conversation genuinely wondering if you somehow missed an entire book in the series. That’s the beauty of Val fans, these people will have you questioning your own reality.

Post being referenced: qitn

#stumpy ask #astraphysical #female darkstar

[ladyandtheghost]

Littlefinger and Da*nerys are two sides of the same coin:

Based on this post, I felt like summing a few things up: 

https://www.tumblr.com/blog/view/arin-arryn/625214564530864128

Imagine Dany stans alleging that their precious princess can’t possibly be an abuser. Because women can’t abuse grown men? The parallel with LF works because LF - just like Dany - used psychological abuse to get what they want. 

Abuse does not have to be beating, it comes in all kinds of guises. And LF and Dany both tick similar boxes:

Gaslighting and manipulating: making their victim feel like they are the one at fault, making them feel guilty and ashamed for not believing (in) them etc., by doing so, getting them to do your bidding, follow your plans and goals:  Dany’s claim to power is all about how she was the victim and is therefore owed everything she wants, completely disregarding what the Targaryens did to the Starks; her first reaction to RLJ is to accuse him of planning it all with Bran and Sam; LF made Sansa believe she is actually a “stupid girl who never learns”, tried to manipulate her countless times, even to kill her own sister (nice little parallel by itself, considering Dany tried to make Jon believe Sansa is betraying them and “this is a victory for her” to justify killing her, just like LF tried to get Sansa to think Arya betrayed her and should be tried and executed). 

Taking away their identity: “Alayne” and “Jon” - (not actually) bastards who have to pretend to be that, to give power to their abuser; Jon not being allowed to tell his family his true identity, something so important and monumental to him, how is that not abuse? Sansa as Alayne is completely dependent on LF

Keeping them small: by forcing Jon to first renounce his title as KitN and then his claim on the throne and his true identity and name, Dany keeps him small, claiming power for herself alone; LF planned to keep Sansa small, managable and under his thumb, but Jon gave her power and made her QitN in his name so joke was on LF

Shifting guilt: both LF and Dany made Jon and Sansa part of their twisted actions, pulling them into their machinations, making them complicit in murder and other atrocities, and blaming them or people close to them for their own actions (Dany literally blaming Sansa for Varys’ murder and making him complicit in genocide; LF actually pinning Joffrey’s murder on Tyrion, making her complicit in regicide and Lysa’s death) 

Isolation: LF worked on that since KL, making Sansa feel like he is her “only friend”, while Dany literally kept Jon imprisoned(!) on her island; wanting to isolate them both from their family

Dubious consent: Littlefinger kissing Sansa repeatedly against her will, making her feel like she owes him something for “saving” her etc; and I find it funny how D stans go on about how Jon allegedly ‘raped’ Dany because he seduced her to get her to come North, but they never talk about how Dany tried to get Jon to sleep with her despite knowing that’s her nephew and despite him being clearly uncomfortable with it, not to mention threatening “let it be fear” as a consequence when he refused her one last time. Lovely.

Threatening: speaking of threats, it’s always nice to make vague (and not so vague) threats against beloved family members of the abused, like LF obviously planning to do away with Jon and Arya at some point, and Dany becoming increasingly more vocal about having a Sansa-BBQ fest in front of Jon.

And the list goes one....

Even their motivations are roughly the same: the both crave power above all else, while at the same time they are infatuated with Jon and Sansa respectively and want to possess them, enjoy them sexually, but always as a ‘consort’ while they sit on the throne themselves and hold all the power. 

#jonsa #anti-jonerys #anti-daenerys #anti-dany stans

[slytarg]

D&D wanted Sansa to be this huge girlboss in the series finale by making her QitN but that puts her only in the top 9 for the most powerful person in Westeros.

Bran has paranormal abilities (mind control, precognition, time travel, warging) and is King of the Crownlands, Dorne, the Iron Islands, the Reach, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, the Vale, & Westerlands.

Jon is a warrior, was resurrected by a red priestess, has a direwolf, is a former dragon rider, and is King of the Freefolk.

Arya is a warrior, can shapeshift, speaks multiple languages, with one blow ended the zombie apocalypse, and her direwolf is alive & leads a pack of wolves.

Tyrion is Hand of the King, Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, & Warden of the West.

Sam is the new Grand Maester and has a wife & 2 children.

Yara is a warrior, ship's captain, and Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands.

Bronn is a warrior, the Lord Paramount of the Reach, and Warden of the South.

Then there's the Prince of Dorne.

#anti got s8 #anti sansa stark

[fedonciadale]

You interpret the foreshadowing in Eddard V AGOT and think Sansa will be queen. But in Catelyn II AGOT , Ned tells Cat he never wanted to be father of "queens". At that point, Sansa was betrothed to become Joffrey's queen but that ship sailed. The plural can't be just a mistake on behalf of GRRM to not visit the ideas of making Arya queen in the upcoming books. Lady is buried in Winterfell so that makes Sansa 👑😂? Lyanna is buried so does that make her QitN or LoW ?

You are really funny anon.... And you obviously did not read my post (or failed to understand it)

Lady is in Winterfell, -> Sansa will be Lady of Winterfell first.

Ghost - > Jon will be a ghost for a while

Summer - > Bran is connected to bringing summer.

Nymeria (of a thousands ships) - > Arya travels

I mean it might be a tad difficult for someone who has difficulties with correct quotation:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." (AGOT, Catelyn II)

I might be mistaken about this, since English is not my native tongue. But I do think the sentence about Brandon is as it should be, grammatically speaking. So, at least try to be accurate about what you quote.

I know it must be hard for you. Here get some cookies to get over the hard lesson along with some tea. Sit down and relax!

#anon ask #Fandom foolery #Sansa Stark #Sansa as Queen #Sansa Stark defence squad #troll alert