#proto indo european

[janmisali]

in proto-indo-european there were three different consonants that are reconstructed as voiceless dorsal stops (k-ish sounds). one of them is reflected as [k] in most descendant branches, one of them is sometimes [k] but sometimes a sibilant, and the other one is commonly reflected as a rounded consonant like [kʷ].

and what messes me up is how it Almost makes perfect sense to transcribe these as *k, *c, and *q (respectively), using the three letters the latin alphabet already has for k-like sounds. but you can't do that because there aren't enough g-like letters to use for all the voiced and breathy voiced counterparts to these consonants. it's so unfair

#jan misali #proto indo european

[plazmataz]

i learned some proto indo european so i could tell the Legend of Zelda to my neolithic great(×400)-grandparents:

*mn̥tímis drúmis-kʷe ph₂ḱróm kukróm h₃réǵmn̥ gʰérdʰro. tér h₂ugism̥óm widism̥óm h₂owsóm sh₂émn̥t, kʷód h₁ih₂ǵnóy dʰǵʰémi skéuHto. pérwr̥ tósmey kuki-h₃r̥ǵméni désntro. pélh₁ewes h₂néres h₁ih₂ǵnóey dʰǵʰméy sérh₃n̥t, néḱro-kʷe. h₁ey tósmeod nésn̥t né, de h₂litrós h₂élutōr pr̥wéns sréwt. h₃rḗǵs septḿ̥ skówhims sontéyet, nu h₁ih₂ǵnósyo dʰǵʰmés pérwr̥ h₂érkn̥t. n̥dʰgʷʰitóm h₂órkmom, wélh₁pn̥t. de íh₂ dʰéh₁teyes sh₂m̥néy h₂yúmis h₁wéh₂ro. nu ǵʰéwHtōr, h₂égʷʰnim, kuki-h₃r̥ǵméni prépt; so h₂órkmom h₁ripyéh₁to. h₃réǵm̥ gʷolHéyet, h₃réǵs kérn̥s dʰréwgʰt. septḿ̥ skówhis h₂yéwHonm̥s ǵónh₁oms spn̥desḱét. nu h₃réǵs dʰugh₂tḗr séldh₂ h₁éso wiktóm déh₂itim dʰégʷʰh₂to…

(literally) 'with Mountains And with Trees a Fair High Realm was Girded. There of an August-most Wise-most Aurum they Hymned, Which in a Holy Land was Hid. a Portal to There in High-Rule was Discovered. Aplenty People into the Holy Land Fought, And were Vanished. They from There Returned Not, But Loathsome Power from the Portal Streamed. the Ruler Seven Sages Sent, and the Holy Land’s Portal they Sealed. an Eternal Seal, they Willed. But These Deeds to Hymns by Ages were Waned. Now a Priest, Agahnim, in Hyrule Appeared; He the Seal Sought Riven. the Ruler he Quelled, the Ruler’s Heralds he Deceived. the Seven Sages’ Juvenile Progeny, one by one, he Sacrificed. Now the Royal Daughter Zelda’s Own Victim Time Approached…'

the italicized words are where i was able use a direct reflex in english of the corresponding prehistoric word above, which means these words still mean the same thing after all this time.

just a little link to the past for you today!

#legend of zelda #zelda #proto indo european #linguistics

[blackcrowing]

Review of The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World by David W. Anthony

I will be upfront, it is a very technical book. If you are not well versed in the anthropological categorizing of cultures and time periods of the areas being discussed it can be very difficult to keep up with the more finite points the author is making. That being said, I had never heard of any of the specific cultures being discussed in the Danube Valley and was still able to enjoy this book and its well put together analysis of various aspects of language, culture, technological developments and shifts in behaviors and place.

If you are especially interested in any of the major themes this book discusses (which is in all honesty is an extensive list including but not limited to; the development of Indo-European language, the time periods and locations as well as likely motivation for domestication of various livestock types, the cultural effects of technological developments on the peoples of the Eurasian Steppes and their migration/trading patterns) I do highly recommend. It is heavy reading but extremely illuminating.

#The horse the wheel and language #David W Anthony #historical anthropology #anthropologist #anthropology #ancient languages #language #historical linguistics #linguistics #proto indo european #indo european #steppes #eurasian #eurasian steppe #horse #horses #husbandry #burials #Cattle #sheep #book review

[archaeology-findings]

Daily Etymology #160

Wedding

Wedding originated from the Middle English weddyng, from the Old English weddung, meaning betrothal. The stem, wed, came from wedian, meaning to marry or pledge, which itself was ultimately derived from the Proto-Germanic *wadją, meaning pledge, from the PIE root *wedʰ-, which meant to pledge.

*Indicates a reconstructed word

#linguistics #etymology #lingblr #root word #proto indo european #old english

[alpaca-clouds]

About the Development of Myths

Okay, I will talk about more of the specific gods tomorrow again (starting first with the other gods from Stray Gods and then just looking over a variety of gods - I might start just with the greeks and then... venture into other mythologies). But first let me talk about the entire basis of what I have been talking about so far with the origins of Pan and Persephone: Their mythology is not a fixed thing.

Something that I would say education in general really fails on is properly expressing the amount of changes that cultures go through. I wrote about this before just in terms of history: There is not THE middle ages, not THE ancient Egypt, not THE ancient Greece and so on. All of those historical periods lasted for at least a thousand years. Now imagine that in like 500 years someone goes and looks at the 20th and 21st century as: "The World War and Globalisation period". Which I think there is a good chance this will at some point be known at (assuming we do not manage to eradicate our species before that, that is). Yet, you and I both know that if we were talking to someone from 1923 there would be very little we had in common.

Sure, this effect got massively accelerated thanks to the internet. But... You gotta have to assume that the Roman dude from 100 BC would also live in a very different world from the Roman dude of 200 BC. Because a hundred years is always going to involve a lot of change.

The reason we look at those old cultures as unchanging is, that they do not change anymore. And everyone who is neither working with that kinda stuff, nor is a complete geek, will just look at that culture as ONE FIRM THING rather than something fluent.

This is also true in terms of religion and related traditions, though we in the west are even more prone to it than other cultures. Because we do assume Christianity as this one thing. And the bible as this one unchanging thing. Hence the core believe is the same and, so the reasoning goes, was always the same. In fact, if you went to a religious school it is kinda how you were taught. The bible is one thing and always was the same thing. Only... It wasn't and even the basic we hve now does not matter.

Just look at the many Christian subreligions. They all in some way or form believe in Jesus, the one big God and all of that - but what they take from that widely differs. And the bible really does not have a big impact onto what ideals they hold and how they hold mass and how they pray and what not. If you think about it, you will easily see that, right? And if you just look a bit into what you might have learned about history in relation to Christianity, you will also know that this has changed. The role of Jesus has changed. How much the Holy Spirit is looked upon as an active actor. Which saints get venerated. All of that has changed a lot in just the last 50 years. And has changed a ton between the different countries.

And what I now need you to keep in mind that this was the exact same with the Ancient Gods and the religion attached to them. That holds true for the Greek Gods, the Roman Gods, the Egyptian Gods, the Norse Gods... all of them. The way they were worshipped changed over those thousand(s of) years they were worshipped.

So, let me once again talk about the Proto-Indo-European culture. Which is always a doosy and I love it.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans originates probably in the areas of modern day Ukraine and/or Romania and/or southern Russia some time around 5000 BC (scholars argue a bit about the exact temporal placement, just that it was somewhere between 7000 BC and 4000 BC). We do not really know a lot about them, because they did not write stuff down. But we do know that they had horses, were patriarchal, and that they worshipped a polytheistic pantheon that at least involved a Sky Father as one of the highest gods, who controlled the weather and was especially associated with storms and lightning.

These Proto-Indo-Europeans started breaking apart and travelling. Some into Asia, some into Europe and the Arabian/Persian areas. They brought with them their language and religion.

Now, it should be noted that they were not the "original humans" or anything. And that whereever they went... in most areas there were already other people living there, with whom they intermingled. Also whatever land they ended up settling was different, had different environments and this was included into their religious practice. Which made their religion over the years differ bit by bit. So from their pantheon sprang a lot of the pantheons we know today.

But... again, a lot of places they settled had already people living there. Who had their own worship. And that stuff often was also included and merged. Sometimes those other worships were very far reaching, sometimes very local. But some of those deities were picked up and either made part of whatever pantheon was there to come or was merged with an already existing god. And this happened again and again during the time that whatever pantheon was prayed to.

How do we know that, if it was not written down?

Well, mostly due to some archeology, but mostly due to comparative mythology and comparative linguistics. Two fields of science that basically involve people going over a lot of languages or mythologies (which, by the way, at times also includes fairytales and other oral narratives that are not necessarily held as "true", but still told) and basically finding things the reoccur. As well as going back over whatever written stuff we do have and noticing the shifts happening between a text written in 600 BC and a text written in 200 BC.

Now, for all the stuff we have two things that help a lot: a) The old Hindi writings and b) the written stuff from Egypt. Because both go really far back and were very well documented in writing. So basically we always can compare stuff to that and see shifts more clearly.

But, yeah... Technically all the pantheons are very much related. At some point Zeus, Jupiter, Diespiter, Thor, Tinia and Tian originated from the same character. You can even kinda see it in how similar the names are. Susanoo in Shinto-Mythology probably came from this, too, at least in the iteration we actually know about. (There can be some arguments made that a lot of the Shinto gods were shifted through the Buddhist contact, as the original indigenous Japanese cultures were very likely not Indo-European in origin. But given that the Ainu are the only culture whose oral tradition managed to survive this long, while the others either vanished or merged in a way influenced by Buddhism, which comes from Indo-European culture... yeah, it is there now.)

So, what I am saying: Mythology is shifting and always has been shifting. Same goes with religion. Hence the evolution of the Greek Pantheon.

Fun fact: Through comparative mythology we can also find the origins of YHW, the Abrahamitic god. Or God, as you might know him. He is a fascinating one, as he probably started out as a local god associated with harvest and weather in Southern Egypt and was then picked up by the Semitic cultures. He got a more pronounced role in the Canaanite pantheon, where at some point he merged with Baal, the war god. And through some trials and tribulations he finally ended up merging with El(hoim), the top god of the pantheon, with a part of the Canaanites splitting from the culture and developing into what would become the Jewish culture.

Super fascinating stuff. I love it.

#stray gods #hades #history #mythology #proto indo european #early history #neolithic #ancient greece #ancient rome #ancient egypt #greek mythology #christian mythology #egyptian mythology

[sreegs]

you import a picture of some indecipherable tablet from 4000 BC into VLC Player and it starts speaking perfect proto-indo european

#vlc player #proto indo european #pie

[kj-ursa]

Hey linguist nerds do we have any examples of Proto-Indo-European numbers? Like the actual symbols? All I can find are reconstructions of the pronunciations! Thanku in advance

#linguistics #language #proto indo european #pie #etymology #history #???

[officiallordvetinari]

#linguistics #indo-european #proto indo european

[somethingusefulfromflorida]

Doing research for a conlang

search: indo-european consonant shifts

results: Grimm's law, Grimm's law, nothing but Grimm's law, Germanic languages are the only ones that exist, don't even bother asking about anything else

search: indo-iranian consonant shifts

results: here's a map of Iran, here's ten thousand maps of Iran, and here's a chart of the Persian writing system. How about Indian food near you?

search: proto-indo-european daughter language sound shifts

results: GRIMM'S LAW BABY!!! And here's a map of Eurasia from Wikipedia for your troubles. Fuck you.

I checked; my library district has exactly ZERO books on any of the subjects I'm looking for across 12 branches throughout the entire county. Remember when the internet was the information super highway? I may as well be asking random strangers off the street!

#research #conlang #pie #proto indo european #indo european #linguistics #dead internet #google doesn't work #I haven't used it in months #but duckduckgo isn't any better #no search engines work anymore #I've tried ask and bing and yahoo but they all just show me the same shit as google with different ads based on the parent company #enshittification

[classicalshorts]

Yellow Varieties

Welcome to this the sixth entry in Cool Colours. Yellow is wonderful and represents rather a unique case in this series' exploration. To look at the word at first glance, you would be forgiven for thinking that our word yellow has no links to Latin whatsoever. You would be both right and wrong, however. There is a link and a rather neat and unusual one. The word yellow is more closely connected to German 'gelb'. But it doesn't look like that either, you say. So, here is a brief glimpse at this lovely colour name's history. It stems primarily from the early German word 'gelwaz', to which the Italian 'giallo' is also related. Both stem ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European (henceforth PIE) word 'ghel-' which meant 'to shine'. Now PIE, is now widely believed to have been an early, now extinct language, from which most European languages and Sanskrit were all born. Now, here comes the Latin link. Latin is also descended from PIE and its word for pale yellow, helvus, comes from the same parent stem as German 'gelb'. So, it is linked to the word, it is just a relative that evolved slightly differently. Also, if you read the Latin helvus, pronouncing the 'v' as a 'w' (as many argue it should be) the connection with our 'yellow' becomes clearer.

Our trip through the colour yellow does not stop there. I have three further Classical terms for yellow for you that bequeathed us words in English. Let us start with Latin.

Have you ever read that you should get more of the vitamin Riboflavin (B2) in your diet? Well, the 'flavin' part of the word comes from the Latin flavus, meaning 'yellow', often a golden or reddish shade of yellow. 'What's a vitamin got to do with 'yellow'?' ,you ask. Well, the flavins are a group of organic compounds, from which Riboflavin is derived, and their colour is, you've got it, YELLOW. They are very important to life. So green might be life, but it appears yellow is, too.

Could your hair be described as 'fulvous'? No, it does not mean it is voluminous (full-vous, get it? Never mind). Again, this rather old-fashioned and probably forgotten word comes from another Latin word for 'yellow', this time fulvus, which denotes a brownish, tawny yellow. It was often used to describe lions.

Lastly, can I ask you if your daffodils betray a xanthic hue? So, we head over to the ancient Greeks for our penultimate yellow word of today. The Greek word ξανθος (xanthos) could denote hair that was blonde or even auburn, so again it can denote a reddish gold.

Crocus is our final shade today. Now, we see crocuses that are pink, blue, and yellow, but Greek word (κροκος) originally referred to the saffron plant, which yields a famous rich yellow colouring. There is even rather a sweet instance of it being used in a Greek text to describe the colour of egg-yolks.

The bright, cheerful colour yellow therefore, not only has a great etymological (i.e. word family) history, but it also has many different variations in Classical terms. EGG-sellent! Okay, there's a reason I'm a classicist not a comedian. I hope you enjoyed this instalment. See you on the next one.

#yellow #proto indo european #gelb #riboflavin #flavins #xanthic #xanthos #tawny #auburn #fulvous #golden #crocus #saffron #words #derivatives #latin language #ancient greek #etymology #word families

[iamnotacriminal]

#linguist humor #linguistics #196 #p.i.e #indo european #proto indo european

[niniralin]

call them *(é)-ih₂ and me an athematic nominal stem the way they feminize me

#proto indo european #trans i guess #imsorryimsorryimsorryimsorryimsorryimsorryimsorry #not the best joke ive made

[gailyinthedark]

Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol | me and bleoberys in the snow last winter | etymonline.com | collinsdictionary.com | Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet | etymonline.com | Gawain and the Green Knight | Elinor Wylie, Velvet Shoes | Apocalypsis 1:14 | Dylan Thomas, A Child's Christmas In Wales

#web weaving #etymology #middle english #latin #proto indo european #poetry #Shakespeare #dylan thomas #elinor wylie #gawain and the green knight #charles dickens #scripture

[blackcrowing]

Blackcrowing's Book Review Masterpost

Irish Paganism: Reconstructing Irish Polytheism, Morgan Daimler

The Book of the Great Queen, Morpheus Ravenna

The Druids, Peter Berresford Ellis

The Horse, the Wheel and Language, David W Anthony

Celtic Cosmology and the Otherworld, Sharon Paice MacLeod

The History of the Vikings: Children of Ash and Elm, Neil Price

A Practical Guide to Pagan Priesthood, Lora O'Brien

God Against the Gods, Jonathan Kirsch

A History of Pagan Europe, Prudence Jones & Nigel Pennick

A Guide to Ogam Divination, Marissa Hegarty

Polytheistic Monasticism, Jann Munin

Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams

A Circle of Stones, Erynn Rowan Laurie

This is a growing list that will be added to as new reviews are made

#book review #books #book #resources #masterpost #masterlist #blackcrowing #paganism #pagan #polytheism #celtic mythology #celtic paganism #celtic polytheism #norse mythology #Norse Paganism #norse polytheism #indo european #proto indo european #history #linguistics

[archaeology-findings]

Daily Etymology #157

Dilemma

Dilemma is a loanword from Late Latin, from the Ancient Greek dílēmma, meaning a double proposition. This was a technical term in rhetoric. It came from di-, meaning two, and lemma, meaning premise. Lemma is derived from the verb lambánō, meaning I take.

#linguistics #etymology #lingblr #latin #root word #proto indo european #ancient greek

[alpaca-clouds]

Some more mythology geekery

Or: Let me talk Pan. (Or the other god I know a lot about.)

Folks found the stuff about old mythology and Persephone interesting... so let me do Pan. So, as I said: Persephone is a very old goddess who might well be one of the first in the Greek pantheon. But... She is not as old as Pan. Because within Europe Pan might in fact be the oldest god that we know about. In fact he very probably predates the ancient Greek religion and was just so popular, that the Greeks just decided to keep him in the pantheon.

How do we know that?

This is the moment, where this geeky twink squeals with excitement, because he gets to talk about proto-indo-european stuff. So, allow me for a moment: SQUEEEEEEEEE! 🥳

Okay. That needed out.

So, what you need to understand is that most mythologies from Europe, Asia and Northern Africa you know about are actually decendents of the same mythology. Talked about this in regards of the Roman Gods not being the Greek Gods. But... yeah. So, there was once this culture, who we call the Proto-Indo-Europeans and they had the great idea of putting wheels on things and the things behind horses and then got around a lot. And wherever they went, they brought their language and mythology with them, which is why the Indo-European language family is so fucking giant.

We can see some of their stuff shimmer through in common themes in mythology. Like, almost all the mythologies in Europe and Asia have a "sky daddy", aka a godly father figure who is associated with the sky. He is not always the big guy of the pantheon, but he is important in all the cases.

And while when we talk Greek, Egyptian, Roman or even Chinese and Hindu mythology we have a surprising amount of writing going on that dates back at times more than 3000 years... the earlier we go, the less writing there is.

Now, with Pan we have some stuff in Mycenean art and what not, that hints that he was around at least as early as 1700 BC, though - obviously - we do not really have written sources going back to this time.

But there is also the fact that... One of the earliest mythologies to split from the Proto-Indo-European one is the Hindu mythology. An the Hindu mythology has Pushan, who is not only associated with the same stuff (pasture, roads, travel, the wild and so on), but also has some goat imagery in older versions. Just like Pan. And if you look at the names P(ush)an you can see there is a parallel. Which makes those geeks who study stuff like that for a living fairly certain that those two once were the same god. A god they call *Péh₂usōn. And no, I will not go into Proto-Indo-European language right now.

The word "pasture" in English comes from the same Proto-Indo-European word, by the way.

Current theory goes, that Pan was actually worshiped by the pastoral people living in Greece before the advanced Greek civilization spread. And given that Pan was associated with so many aspects the folks were not giving him up. So, as it goes with pantheons... He just got integrated into the pantheon as was........ though he got split into two pieces. But... Gotta talk about his other piece tomorrow.

Maybe due to the age of Pan, but maybe due to him turning into mostly a god of wilderness, he tends to be a much more openly manecing deity compared to other gods. While most polytheistic cultures absolutely feature an aspect of: "Our thing is that we bribe gods into being nice with us, because those gods are so freaking dangerous," most of the pantheon gods are actually mostly cultured. Even if they are horndogs like Zeus.

Pan meanwhile is a god of the wild. He has this animal imagery (that probably all early gods had) still very present, he gets associated with all sort of wild behavior in humans, and of course the word "panic" comes from Pan. Because it is said that his scream could create panic in the humans.

Enough geekery, lets get back to Stray Gods. Because other than with Persephone's situation I am fairly certain that at least some of this was known to the creators, given the role Pan plays as someone who is not quite inside of the Chorus and acts more as an outsider to it.

#stray gods #greek mythology #proto indo european #indo european #history #ancient history #pan #god pan