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sharonisthebettercarter · 3 months

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Thinking about what you said, I think it's highly probable Madelyn Stillwell raped Homelander when he was 14 or 15.

That's around the age he got stuck at, right?

I think fandom is probably right about her doing it as more of a means to control him than anything, but I think you're probably right about this making it worse and meaning she did much more than has been shown to us on screen.

Regardless, I think this would have to be the case and I would say is even implied, but you are absolutely right that it shouldn't matter why someone decides to be a child molester.

They're still a child molester and whatever reasoning they have, the act is still vile and inexcusable. There even being debate on that in fandom just seems like grooming apologism and abuse dismissal because of favoritism towards Madelyn.

But the results and actions are ultimately the same in the end. It's also implementing a clause to make it mutually exclusionary when it could very well be both.

In the final scene, she swears to him that she loves him but is afraid of him and Homelander thanks her for finally being honest with him before killing her.

What if she was being honest or at least believed her own words when she said she loved him?

And the other scenes between them never struck me as a one time deal or the first time something like them happened. He does look off put in some ways and not quite uncomfortable, but almost like he's regressing when he's with her. Like she maybe used to do that sort of stuff more frequently and hasn't lately.

The scene where they're finally together struck me as more regression too. He immediately apologized to her and she consoled him like it was something that has happened before and she was used to it from him. Even the words she used and the way she said it and the way things were.

"My special sweet boy." "You did good." "That was so lovely."

Do people really believe this or similar can't have happened before with the things she says? To me, they indicate the exact opposite of that thought.

The scene looked almost like it was his first time, and obviously not hers. But the only way that really makes sense is if he is experiencing a moment of regression, possibly to his actual first time with her.

The scene feels like mother and son incest after years of abuse where she's deliberately causing his regression and enjoying the power it gives her over him.

She's a predator and this to me is made pretty clear if not explicit.

OOOH~<3! my darling anon, i wish i could fucking kiss you<3!

you just put into a word exactly why i could never get behind the homewell ship or the homewell type elements being used in other ships in fics that were supposedly trying to *heal* him. easy way to get me to check out for a fic because you *CANNOT* use elements from someone's trauma and abuse, legit full on *exploit* them, and *then* dare to call it or frame it as *healing* and expect it all to be hunky dory, that is just not how that shit works. (at least speaking in terms of medical accuracy/no wonder this shit is so triggery for me, this ain't supposed to be fuckin' disney--)

obliviously or dismissively predatory, so not even in the fun way...

and i want to be clear here, because this isn't me trying to tell people to not like the ship or elements or stop making content for them or whatever the fuck else. i don't care if people have or indulge in toxic guilty pleasure ships or stories here and there (literally have my own), but i always think we should be self aware of our own shit (plus ranting is sometimes good for the soul~<3) and it really *really* shows some people just are not in this case.

i *also* know people don't always mean to set up that way, part of it is a major problem with society (i will get to that~) and the only way for people to be aware is to be *made* aware, butt~

"--you think love is to prey, but i'm sorry i don't pray that way!"

"once i ran to you, now i run from you, this tainted love you've given--"

1000% correct. madelyn, regardless of what happened *off screen* between her and homelander, what we *did* see of her is enough to confirm her as a *predator*, and this was *before* diabolical added to the story behind them. she is extremely predatory as a character, set behind a narcissistic 'mother knows best' filter and a lot of it has nothing to do with homelander.

look no further than starlight~<3

this woman attempted to get a victim of rape to have 'discretion' about what happened to her, TO HER FACE. and every step of the way, tried to bully starlight into 'line' for the company. literally using narcissistic abuse--guilt tripping and shame, questioning her core values, fucking gaslighting (all things we see homelander copy oh deary me what an *odd* cowinkidink!! I WONDER WHERE HE LEARNED IT FROM.)--among others with a 'motherly' frame and 'it's just constructive criticism' (BITCH NO IT AIN'T!!) to manipulate her into doing what vought wanted/what was best for the *company*, NOT for annie.

hell, i'd wager she fucking hired starlight *specifically* because they thought she'd be an *easy* target.

she was *vulnerable*, nearly alone in that big city. her only relative/support system was an extremely religious mother who was *pushing her* to push through any pain or abuse and still wear a smile *for vought* and *for her* because of *fame* and *fortune*, framed as *for annie* when no it def wasn't. (i do like that starlight's mum actually becomes self aware of this and tries to amend the trust she broke, but i digress)

her tapes and everything they showed us about starlight showed us a wide eyed, bright eyed girl who was *hopeful*--but also naive... and as much as it pains me, that would have made her more susceptible to vought's machinations.

and i think the main reason annie didn't completely fall down the vought victims rabbit hole is in part due her truly good nature<3, but also because she met *hughie* (side note, notice how every time hughie and starlight have a falling out or separate from each other, they both start to get *worse*. butcher also tends to swoop in--)

it doesn't get talked about enough, but butcher pulls the same kind of bullshit with hughie (honestly probably why i could never quite feel right about butchie, do still like it but i do prefer it if butcher catches some guilty complexes causa hughie lmao), another good kid who's just had something monumentally traumatic happen to him and is in a super fucking vulnerable place where he'd be easy to manipulate for whatever it is butcher has planned.

he scoped him out and *saw* that, something to *use* to his advantage. and recruited him as such. like a gotdamn predator.

the wrench in his plans (as well as madelyn's) came in *hughie meeting annie* because they *gave* each other a solid support system because they were both good people, dealing with trauma, who found each other~<3 (always a hardcore hughielight shipper)

and butcher even *knows* this, he *knows* annie actually *honestly* and actually HELPS hughie and ruins his plots for him, so of course that mofo is gonna keep trying to ruin everything and break them up. if madelyn had ever discovered hughie, she probably would have done the same shit if in her own faux 'concerned mother' way.

BUTT... you are absolutely right in saying that fandom is highly dismissive or even apologist of what madelyn did to homelander (like they are with fuckin' everything that happened to him honestly) and it doesn't matter what reason she had to abuse him, what should be looked at is the fact of the matter.

did she abuse him? yes or no

the answer is yes, period. asking if she was actually attracted to him or just wanted control becomes a moot point after that, she *still* fucking groomed him. people can go ahead and debate the other factors, but the least they could do is acknowledge the first bit and not use the others to try and deny or 'lessen' the gravity of what she did.

i blame part of this on ableism and victim blaming, but also with how dismissive people *still* are when it comes to male victims of just about anything. christ, we still have people in fandom who have watched the show and *refuse*, not hyperbole, they downright *REFUSE* to acknowledge that homelander could have *any* semblance of victimhood whatsoever. despite the fact that he was literally tortured as a child and fucking groomed and we are given glimpses of these facts on screen, they'll deny any form of nuance and paint it as completely black or white, because he became... pretty much the only thing that fate allowed him to become.

that's not limited to this site even, it's prevalent pretty much in any part of the boys fandom across the web. (which is ironic given the series exists to challenge this sort of thinking)

but how often do we still see cases of a male *child* being sexually assaulted by an adult woman and the fucking judge going, "wElL sHe'S cAnDy So He PrObAbLy LiKeD iT"?

thankfully, not as often anymore. but if i'm honest? TOO FUCKING MANY (once is fucking too many) and the thought is still INSANELY pervasive. and again, it leads back to the question.

did she abuse him? yes or no

it doesn't fucking matter if the kid 'liked it' or not, MA'AM, THIS IS A FUCKING CHILD--

*children can NOT consent*

or in homelander's case, an emotionally stunted extremely mentally ill person. and ALSO a child at one point.

*likewise, mentally ill/special needs/disabled people and informed consent is an issue all its own. all of these are among the most vulnerable to abuse and the least likely to get justice for it*

if madelyn had been a man, nobody would question this. (who am i kidding, i'd like to think that but i am well aware there are apologists of all kinds that would not give a shit and be equally gross about it.)

and you are def right, it *feels* 1000% like *regression* in the scenes he's with her. and now that you mention it, the scene where they're together?? oh, fuck me. anon... that is *dark* and it fucking hurts but you may be right.

it *was* absolutely the first time *we* as an audience saw them together, and i think that may skew the perception about. there *was* absolutely an effort to regain control over him in that instance. but the things she said and the way it plays out... no

plainly, just no... it *does not* feel like the very first time that has happened... it feels like something that is *rare* between them. but definitely something that's happened *before*, and perhaps something she maintains as *rare* specifically to keep a hold on him. (could this be one reason for the diabolical episode?? to further implicate this?)

and even his use of doppelganger hinted at this cause think of it.

a 'madelyn' that is *just* for him, *only* the parts of her that... gave him attention, the bits he *liked*. what she more than likely fed to him as *scraps* to keep him crawling back for more. but because it was never genuine, the confusion from the ratio with abuse was thrown off, and the entire illusion that it ever meant anything was shattered prior (along with stormfront manipulating him), well...

"i give you all a boy could give you, take my tears and that's not nearly--"

down to his hatred and jealousy of teddy. we have to imagine what things were like before she had him but i get the feeling homelander got a lot more attention before then. it was well over 20 years and people honestly think in all that time *nothing* else happened??? things were 'normal' and then boom, *random* mommy kink??? hell, even the kid was maybe just as much a means to 'reset' the balance and help her maintain control as he was for future profit for vought.

OW.

yes. madelyn is a predator. homelander is her groomed victim. and i don't think it gets mentioned enough in this discourse, but one of the biggest reasons predators prey on the vulnerable or even want to make a fucking victim of someone is *because* of the power trip it gives them over that person. (hell, homelander fucking does this *specifically* because it has been done to him his entire life!)

and *even former abuse victims* may not realize it when they pull this sort of shit. i'm not gonna dive into that because it is a fucking *depressing* can of tapeworms, but let's just say i've been there, i know people who've been there, and i know people who know people who've been there. so this shit is a big fucking problem for people when we don't notice it and massively persistent circle jerk of perpetuation.

but it's still fucking predation, it doesn't make a difference if it's done by someone with power/control kink, narcissistic disorder or 'mommy/daddy dearest' vibes, pedophilic disorder, etc. it still fucking harmful and victimizes someone (especially when they are unaware/cannot consent to the powerplay OH FUCK--)

goddammit... i just realized the problem lmao... PISS. POOR. BDSM ETIQUETTE. GOTDAMN.

and trauma management i guess.

basically, people tag dom/sub or top/bottom when they should be tagging a 'control' or 'abuse kink'. dom/sub play relies on the informed consent of both parties while 'control' relies on the lack there of (informed consent) from the 'sub'. and in homelander's case, this shit is particularly bad. (readers need to be given informed consent too!! always tag yo shit y'all!!)

which to be fair, ain't exactly the fault of the ship itself, but more so the lack of awareness/common dismissal on it. it's really hella normalized/often advertised as 'just a quirky lil guy with a mommy kink' when that's not even remotely the only thing at play here and it goes way deeper and darker than that. you toss in homelander's other traumas and it's just... it's a goddamn mess.

and now i understand why i am so incredibly grossed out by fics that push homelander through more of this nonsense (or worse) with a new person (any person) and never bother addressing the trauma he has *directly* related to this shit. (because my traumas directly deal in the control shit yayyyyyyyyyyyyy~... UGH--)

well.

call me a pussy if you must (i am a pussy and a cunt and a dick and an asshole, i wear it shamelessly~<3) but i just ain't all that interested in fics that only exchange *handlers* for homelander instead of actually help him (when that's what they'll claim to want to do). seriously, lining him up with another 'madelyn' of all things just leaves me wishing he could *get away* from his shiny new abuser (because that is what she was, and would ideally be the inevitable outcome anyhow!)

homelander needs at least *one* honest *friend* who genuinely doesn't want anything from him to help him unblur the lines of informed consent that madelyn intentionally muddled *before* he can even make informed consent when it comes to this shit, especially if we wanna *actually* heal that boi (all he's had is more people capitalizing on it over and over if not just people with no clue of the minefield they were navigating)

he'd need to be able to experience true *independence* and *agency* before he decided they were things he actually wanted to put in someone else's hands or 'give up', so to speak, both of which would come *after* healing.

and if i'm indulging in toxicity with him, i'ma make him *get back at his abusers*~<3, give him a chance at some revenge porn for once and make it so much worse for *them*, not the guy who literally never had a chance or got to breathe his own breath (and def tagged properly of course).

but of all the whack ass takes i could see in the sea of fandoms, ANYONE in that position over this boi (or any character in similar situation) as he is *unhealed* is *NOT* his ally and doesn't give an honest shit about him, it's 100% all about *control* over him (which i know is a huge kink for tons of people and hypernormalized in society, especially heteronormativity, but again, trauma central for me so it'd be really fuckin' nice if people learned the difference and also started tagging this shit~<3)

fun for some, but not for me.

i've always generally preferred push/pull powerplay that purposely leaves the question of 'control' open/eventually balances it and helps empower and individualize both characters to be the best versions of themselves, i want them to learn and grow together. positive masculinity/femininity and emotional maturity are way more of a turn on for me and i want these bois and gurls and inbetweens to graduate to *men* and *women* and fairly *reasonable adults* when i write them, while preserving their core personalities and the things that make them *them*.

i also don't view 'bottomhood' as 'punishment'/something to use to deliberately rob a person of control/self determination (as much as we may joke about it, and also that is just rape with a pretty veil that at least deserves to be properly tagged) and i normally focus on empowering them just as much if not more than my tops so it's just damn weird to me to see that kind of mentality get popularized on any character and leik.

gotdamn, first off, what the shit, and second, i realize getting to the places i wanna go reasonably and responsibly takes hard work and pretty intricate writing but please lawd satan tell me i ain't the only one to feel this way, PLEASE!?

but very good point about it possibly being both/more than one element here. control is more likely to be *one* reason, but not *the* only reason and it could very well be a factor of both attraction and need to/getting off on the idea of controlling him (which still stems back to attraction, honestly, even if she didn't feel it towards him the sense of him being a child, it would still mean she feels it towards him in the sense of him being vulnerable which is just as awful, honestly.)

and i do think his stunted emotional maturity is 100% indicative that something *very* specific happened to him around that age (*maybe* she waited till after the debut??), but among all the other trauma, that is actually a question worth asking. why *then* and not any of the other times? he's got no shortage of trauma for his brain to pick from, so what the hell happened then?

as far as it feeling like incest? lil bit, yeah (if pseudo, which obviously we know it's not but i do think the vibe there is actually intended), suffice to say that madelyn is to homelander what billy's father was to him...

and y'know... i gotta admit, knowing this i am surprised we don't see all that much of butcher being shipped with his father because that and homewell are pretty much the same thing on opposite spectrums.

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH--

have fun y'all, as always butt leik... have fun responsibly--gawddammit i never thought i'd be *that* old fart but i guess i am... well i can still be fun about it... tipsy bartender is fun lmao<3<3<3 (altho these subjects are decidedly less fun... *sigh of the long suffering*...)

#rape #tw sa #tw grooming #tw child abuse #tw abuse apologism #madelyn stillwell #informed consent #homelander #the boys #billy butcher #hughie campbell #annie january #oof ouch owie #tainted love #meta #the boys meta #psa #precious anon

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sharonisthebettercarter · 3 months

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I mean, Billy Butcher has been deflecting, especially in season 3. It's a cruel irony because Billy faced violence and abuse since childhood, but it didn't make him more protective of other children nor empathetic of SOME supes, I suppose in some ways he's detached from them, sorta like turdlander, that exposure to violence and malice so early in life... a disturbance to his mind. Sure he shows small tingue of guilt more than creeplander does, but I think there's just too much at stake for billy to risk attachment.. and what has attachment brought him anyway?

he's actually a pretty common statistic for the society we live in. capitalism is... fucking awful~<3

he's ableist racist trash, of course he's not gonna give a shit as long as he chooses to remain ignorant, arrogant, and blame the supers for their blood instead of the fucking entity that made them.

the whole time if people haven't fucking noticed:

for billy it's been, "homelander, homelander, some random supe killing~, but oh homelander~<3!"

BUT FOR EVERYONE ELSE IN THE BOYS, IT'S BEEN:

"VOUGHT. LET'S TAKE DOWN VOUGHT."

it is BILLY that veers them towards the reckless killing and hyperfocuses the operations on homelander. and it shows, exponentially how much of an addiction and obsession (to the detriment of everyone else) he has in season 3, where he's fed up with 'managing' the right way and having to listen to hughie when it comes to holding supes accountable.

people seem to keep forgetting that scene with raynor but she said it perfectly, "you should be terrified of what can happen if you push him too far." but billy does not care *because* he doesn't care about anyone else, he just keeps pushing.

people keep acting like 'homelander must be stopped' and i'm like... 'okay, do you mean the FUTURE version of him that goes berserk???' cause all i see right now is someone who is at the verge and needs *serious help* as well as a self fulfilling fuckin' prophecy being pushed by those around him, *especially* billy.

he is a ticking time bomb, but he hasn't gone off yet. and the fact that people want to fight that with more explosives to 'destroy' the bomb thinking there won't be collateral *instead* of fucking diffusing it i--

homelander more often gets judged for what he *can* do rather than what he *has* done, and that's not to minimize what he has done, that's to say that he's still in a place where he *could* get treatment and maybe get better but most people... do not give a shit because of what he *could* do in the long run, and in all honesty, kinda not really all that fair?

and then the second hughie finds out about neuman? he panics and pins her as a bad guy *because* she is 'the head popper'/a supe

i want to take a second to point out that while i don't think her intentions are necessarily 'good' and that she's getting desperate, we still have no clue as to what the full scope of her own plans actually are.

and watching back the scene where she 'blows up congress', i noticed something, she seemed scared. almost like she was having a panic attack or flashback or some kind of ptsd episode after seeing vogelbaum, which i just would not be surprised had that been the case. but she *looks* like she *lost control* for a moment and then picked it back up after the fact. and homelander points it out, 'you're not his daughter, you're his weapon' and he's right.

i would wager (what am i sayin', pretty fuckin' sure here) that some if not most of her kills (including raynor) were for the most part on orders for stan edgar's plan *before* homelander hijacked the situation. but to put it bluntly, vicky is also stuck in the vought cult and also a major victim of circumstance. she's a brutal assassin too, but that is exactly what the supes are trained to be. because they are vought's new marketed weapons and they are seen as exactly that by the company itself.

stan lied when he claimed they were a pharmaceutical company. they are a weapon's company.

but going back to billy,

as far as guilt goes, of course homelander isn't gonna show any, he has no understanding of what he would even feel guilty for

"Evil is knowing better, but willingly doing worse."

finally took the time to look up that quote and it's by philip zimbardo.

if we go by this (which i am a firm believer in) and make this our standard for evil in its *purest* form. many characters in the story do this and are capable of it to some degree, and plenty are also not. but~

none moreso than billy.

AND

with exception to homelander.

this means that within context, homelander is the only character that is truly *incapable* of committing *true evil* because he has *no understanding of the moral question*. it's sort of a defaulted thing, but think of it like judging a hippo, a highly aggressive and territorial animal, for killing a person that wandered into it's territory. the hippo is responding within reasonable *nature*, so it hasn't technically committed evil, even if it's caused harm.

it's a fucking hippo, the humans wandered into its territory, it's just gonna do how hippos do! WE are the ones in the wrong here if we refuse to understand that!

likewise, an actually more apt comparison for homelander would be an abused zoo or circus animal, plainly because *he has never once been treated as a human being or been presented with the moral question* and quite the contrary, i actually think vought made an effort to ensure he *didn't* understand these things in any sound capacity to ensure they could maintain control of him, or rather, they deliberately screwed up his ability to analyze things and think critically *as a human being/from a human perspective* because it would be inconvenient for them (also honestly, i feel like if someone took him to a zoo, he'd go berserk and release all the animals--)

and we see this in different instances. of course there are moments where the boi is super mean spirited or bullying someone, but it's not just because he can or wants to, it's because *that's what was done to him and he knows no different*, he lived through nothing but cruelty so that is all he knows and it's his *normal*. couple that with being brought up to believe the beings around him are somehow 'lesser' or that he is 'not one of them' and it causes a whole mess of problems...

billy is the exact opposite of this. he is *fully aware* of the moral question, *fully aware* of what he is capable of and what he does and how it affects other people. *fully aware* of cruelty AND kindness, has experienced both and even given both. hell, he's even fully aware of how to emotionally manipulate people *with* his own emotions and situation and any *guilt* he feels. and i've said it before, and i'll say it again.

HE KNOWS BETTER. he just CHOOSES to do worse. and he even knows *that*. billy is evil and chooses to be while homelander has never had that chance to learn that there's even a difference.

and then billy goes and makes it worse because he also *weaponizes* what he's learned and what he's been through. so you're definitely right about that last bit.

there is too much at stake for him to risk attachment, that's why he also *detaches* himself from people (like ryan) or stabs them in the back to pursue what will inevitably eventually destroy him and everyone else.

if i'm completely honest? i think the self awareness in how evil billy is ends up being part of his game. there is a huge part of him that pushes because he *wants* to lose, the part of him that's *not* evil, feels guilt, and *wants* to stop himself but can't. and that would be the point he turns to outside sources to fulfill that need and self punishment

i think part of why he pursues homelander isn't because *he* wants to stop or destroy homelander, but because he believes homelander may be the only thing that can stop and destroy *him*.

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