#loki tv series negativity
Will I ever stop being bitter?
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Pre-Gagnarok Loki meeting post-Gagnarok Loki:
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Super small detail, or mistake rather? But did you notice Tom stares directly into the camera for a sec in the Loki pilot at approx 24 minutes and 25 seconds? It's right before his ''The Time-Keepers have built quite the circus'' line. Didn't notice this the first time, but upon rewatching the episode it was suddenly glaringly obvious and I can't unsee it now lol. Despite Loki being so wildly ooc throughout the majority of it I found his expression in that frame to be very endearing.
Oh lol nice catch!
Loki Series Script: *has Loki do something wildly ooc*
Tom: *looks into the camera like he's on the office*
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OMFG...I do not understand this new trend of hiring people who actively dislike the source material to write/direct the material. The more quotes from Waldron I see the more flashbacks I get to JJ Abrams bragging about how he never liked Star Trek...while promoting his new films that he wrote and directed for Star Trek. D:
smh. I don't get it. is it too much to ask that people respect the thing they're working on and the fans? even if they're gonna do something very different they can still be respectful about it and be cognizant of the fact that there are people who love the original version and found it meaningful.
I don't know anything of course, but I suspect in the case of Mike Waldron, Disney hired him because even after 10 years they dismissed and underestimated the interest in Loki. I think they kind of viewed him as a played out character that maybe had some potential for a total reboot. They figured Loki probably had a few squealing teenage fangirls as fans who would watch anything bc clearly they mostly just cared about the actor so as long as the names Loki and Tom Hiddleston got slapped don the project it would be fine. And beyond that they thought there wasn't large scale interest in the character so they could use the show as a training ground for a brand new director who'd never done a major solo project before and a band new writer who'd never headed a writing room before to try out some new stuff.
Then the first trailer came out and it drew 18 million views because Loki actually DOES have mass appeal. Those 18 million people clicked that trailer because Loki is a fascinating and entertaining character and they were excited to see more content about him and interested in a show exploring him. Unfortunately by that point the show was already made and Loki's character had been utterly destroyed by an abysmal script and story written by somehow who had no interest in or understanding of the character. That's why later trailers were getting in the 2 million view range. Because most people probably didn't like what they saw. The character in the trailers isn't Loki. He's something entirely different and far less entertaining. And a lot of people unfamiliar with Loki would also be turned off by the subpar writing and painfully unfunny "humor."
Like even if you leave aside the ooc stuff and the toxic and deeply dangerous messaging of the show, it's just not good. It's painful to watch. It's badly paced. It's badly written. And it's extremely unfunny. It's odd because I guess it was in part supposed to be a thriller? But it's not thrilling at all. You can have humor in a thriller but if you set the tone as slapstick comedy then it's not a thriller; it's a parody. Also a thriller requires tension, which again, this lacks. (I mean it COULD be a thriller if they leaned into the fact that the TVA are horrifically evil instead of presenting it as a cutesy joke and encouraging audiences to sympathize with them.)
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Loki 1x01 Review
This is a long post. It includes scene by scene comments, theory for the show and analysis. There is also criticism of the show. Like a lot of it. So if you don’t want to see negativity about the show and also TR, don’t read this post.
*Spoilers for Loki 1x01 and also Loki Agent of Asgard comic book*
Scene by Scene Comments
The very first scene was idiotic and ridiculous. The way Loki starts monologuing to the first people he meets was ooc and doesn’t make sense. It actually gave me second hand embarrassment. If it was supposed to be funny, the joke didn’t land. It was ooc because Loki isn’t a narcissistic egotistical idiot. And it doesn’t make sense because in Avengers Loki starts introducing himself to SHIELD in that way. An enemy, an organization who would oppose Loki in his invasion. In that situation Loki wants to be known. Escaping from imprisonment and landing on some unknown place without knowing who he is dealing with, Loki wouldn’t introduce himself that way. Remember that in Thor1, Loki stands back and observes as Thor talks to Laufey, and only interfere to calm things down. And even when he visits Laufey alone, he still isn’t so full of himself. In TDW when he sees Jane he introduces himself casually and calmly and not in a superior way. The only time, he is acting weirdly is in Avengers and under the influence of mind stone, but I guess we’re ignoring the mind influence, right? Smh.
“So, if you don’t mind this is actually your last chance. Now get out of my way.”
Good, good. In character. I like that.
I didn’t like the scene where the machine vanished Loki’s clothes because of the invasive and non-con way it felt. This scene is enough to show that TVA aren’t good guys and for me to hate them even more. Again, if the scene was supposed to be comedic, I didn’t find it funny. Neither I found the following scenes funny.
“What if I was a robot and I didn’t know it?”
I guess this line was for laughs too, but if you consider Loki’s identity issues, that he didn’t know he was from another species his whole life, that his mind and memories were tampered with by Thanos, it’s actually heartbreaking. But I guess all that doesn’t matter anymore. All that matters is jokes.
I don’t know why I missed the oppressive theme of TVA the first time from trailers. But it’s clear now. Specially from the Miss Minutes introduction of TVA. It kind of reminded me of dystopian books like “1984” and “Mortelle”.
Blue eye color is canon? I’m OK with it but I prefer green eye color for Loki. I still haven’t forgotten this movie and its posters unlike the show’s creators.
They made Loki canonically genderfluid. I like it.
When Loki was in the trial, why after he was defeated and arrested by Avengers, he would think that they were trying to stop his success through time travel? What kind of idiotic conclusion is that? Doesn’t he know about Thanos? He was sent by him. Another ooc reaction. Smh.
“Oh, believe me you can smell the cologne of two Tony Starks.”
I laughed so hard at this. Oh, be still my frostiron loving heart! :D
TVA is so absurd. How can people who are unaware of a sacred time line, and an organization that keeps it in line and their own story, are breaking laws if they do sth in contradiction to it!? That’s really irrational.
Why Loki didn’t try to use his powers until the trial? Plot hole!
- “You ridiculous bureaucrats will not dictate how my story ends!”
- “It’s not your story Mr. Laufeyson. It never was.”
Direct hints to stories and how everything supposed to happen according to some gods. Parallels to Loki Agent of Asgard story line. I like it. I hope Loki ends up disrupting all their rules and dictations.
I don’t understand why Loki would be surprised by how TVA looks like. A thousand year old prince who has seen many planets in his life. We’ve seen other developed planets in MCU that work without magic. Another plot hole imo.
Hated the talky talky scene just like the trailer.
“There’s only one person you can trust.”
Agreed Loki :P :D
“I live within whatever path I choose.”
Good line! AoA parallel.
“You’re just a little pussycat.”
I hate you more and more by the minute Mobius.
After Earth, Loki wants Asgard and the nine Realms? They’re definitely going for a power hungry egotistical characterization. Smh.
“For nearly every living thing, choice breeds shame and uncertainty and regret. There’s a fork in every road, yet the wrong path always taken.”
You expect me to accept Loki without the influence of mind stone is a dictator? The person who literally was saying I choose my own path and story a moment ago, is against choice? This would make sense in Avengers as projecting his situation with Thanos. But free from him? No. It’s ooc. He can be referring to his own mistakes as a result of his choices but even then, he isn’t against choice and freedom. As much as I hate TR, as king he let other realms have more freedom.
Shut up Mobius. No, he’s enjoying the chaos around him. He doesn’t even look at the guy.
“I’ll do what I want to do!”
Finally! My favorite Loki line :D
“Like you did your mother?”
SHUT UP MOBIUS! WTF! He didn’t send Kurse to his mother or Thor. What Kurse found after he got out of the prison, was the device to the shield surrounding the palace which he turned off. Malekith found Frigga because he was able to locate the Aether in Jane. And Kurse found them on his own. I’ve been in fandom for years and even the most avid Loki haters haven’t said that Loki killed his mother! I thought I couldn’t hate anyone more than Thanos. But Mobius proved me wrong. I hate him with a burning passion. My dear Loki! Did you see his face when he saw his mother’s death? The way he asked about her? His tears?
“You weren’t born to be king Loki. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death.”
Odin: “Wherever you go, there is war, ruin and death.”
I had theorized before the series that Mobius can be a father figure to Loki. Apparently, he is another Odin. Even worse than him.
OK, they have lots of infinity stones and magic doesn’t work in TVA. That answers why everyone suddenly can touch the Tesseract. But where these people come from and what is their species? The show never answered that.
Tom’s performance in the scene where Loki watches his life was fantastic!
Ngl, watching Loki defeating that TVA guard was enjoyable! :D
Mobius told Loki, the variant they’re after who is killing TVA agents is Loki. There are two possibilities here.
1. He is the same Loki, but he has gone in the past to destroy TVA just like King Loki in AoA.
2. He is another variant.
I really like to see Loki actually destroys TVA. I hate them. I think if that’s going to happen, Mobius would side with Loki learning that TVA aren’t actually good guys.
The hints to Loki’s story and also that “gods to gods” line makes me hope for a story line similar to AoA, where Loki who becomes the god of stories through the series, defeats the Time-Keepers.
The first episode introduced TVA and tried to give us a deeper look into Loki’s psychology through a review of MCU movies. The audience are meant to accept Mobius’ POV-who is a hero coded character- of Loki as truth. But this POV is mostly retcon and inaccurate. Notice how the events of first movie, Loki’s origin story, and also his redemption in TDW where he saved Jane’s and Thor’s lives were completely ignored in favor of the lie the narrative was trying to feed to us. Loki’s actions in Avengers without knowing the first movie and his involvement with Thanos, the torture and mind influence he suffered, don’t make sense. But the narrative explained all of this as Loki being power hungry and in desperate need to control. Yes, Loki wants control. But of his own life when it was taken from him since the first movie that he learned all his life was a lie. He only tried to gain control through hurting people and inspiring fear in Avengers and under mind influence. That isn’t how he acted other in other movies.But those other instances were ignored.
Mobius is the sum of every pro-TR fan who claim they like Loki, but he deserved everything he got because he has done horrible thing. He echoed Odin’s claim in saying that Loki causes pain and death. And he reminded me of TR Thor who put Loki down for who he was and then told him he could be more after torturing and humiliating him. From what it looks like, we’re going to see another redemption story where Loki tries to become better by the help of a hero coded character. Smh. As if we haven’t seen the same story line for Loki again and again and again…
The comedy is bad. Like really bad. The scenes that were meant to be funny, seemed exaggerated and overly cartoonish. The only times I actually smiled was when Loki tried to threatened that guy who didn’t know what a fish was and him saying he lost a bet to Thor.
Other than exaggeration in comedy, Tom’s performance specially in emotional scenes is great as always. Loki’s lines are mostly in character and are well-written.
I liked the hints to AoA story line. I’ll be happy if the show ends up like AoA, with Loki accepting himself. Hopefully he burns TVA to the ground along the way.
The episode has both pros and cons. But despite the parts I liked in it, I wasn’t really impressed. The tone and pace of it wasn’t done well and while Loki was in character in many scenes, there were enough inconsistencies in characterization that even created plot holes in some scenes. I give this episode a 6 out o 10 at most and only because of Tom’s performance.
All in all, I think any fan can find sth they like in the show from many appearances of Loki in MCU. But you know the saying. If you try to make everyone happy, you end up making no one happy. I hope the next episodes will be better than this.
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It's painfully obvious Mike Waldron spent years working on a cartoon show- because literally everything about it comes across like a cartoon, right down to the OOC expressions, acting, and cringe dialogue. And I like animated shows, but not when it's supposed to be live action pretending it's a cartoon.
The whole thing is very cartoonish. Which makes sense since the head writer has very little experience outside cartoons. And also doesn't seem to have spent that much time acquainting himself with the tone and feel of the other movies Loki was in. Given that he didn't remember that it was Loki, not Odin, who killed Laufey, he may well not have watched Thor 2011 at all and instead just read a quick summary.
The whole show seems so fixated on declawing and humiliating and mocking Loki at every turn that it has robbed itself of tension or interest and also completely stripped him of his character traits to the point where I think of TV!Loki as Larry bc I don't see Loki. I just see Tom Hiddleston playing a different role.
Even if I just view the show as it's own thing I don't really enjoy it that much. I find the comedy to be very cringey and unfunny and I don't find Larry to be an interesting or entertaining character as he seems to caricatured to feel real. People wanted to watch this show for Loki. That's why the early trailers got 18+ million views. I don't know why they would give the show to a writer who wants to strip away everything that made that character popular. I think that's why only about 850K households actually tuned in to the show. (Let's assume some people pirated and call it 1.5 million; that's still a big drop.) Larry isn't Loki and he's not nearly as good or entertaining a character.
Which is a shame. I'm not even speaking as a Loki fan when I say this could've been a flagship show for Disney+. Loki became hugely popular bc he's such a versatile and cool and fun character. He can make you laugh (why oh WHY did they strip him of his great wit and turn him into the butt of slapstick jokes instead) and cry and is mesmerizing to watch and extremely complex (why did they retcon his motivations to just scaring people so he could feel better about himself, when that was never what it was about??!?!).
Loki is a bit like Tyrion on Game of Thrones - complicated characters, complex relationships with siblings, very witty, use their humor as both a sword and a shield, not appreciated in their societies because their strengths are not valued, very smart, very funny, very complex. Tyrion was hugely popular with audiences and Loki could've had that kind of broad appeal and a show that treated him with dignity and that was written by a competent writer could've done wonders and brought people flocking to Disney+.
But instead. We get this garbage. I think Mike Waldron doesn't understand Loki's character well and also has a weird dislike and resentment towards him. I think bc he didn't want Loki overshadowing his OCs. I also think though that he's not that talented of a writer. He talks about how he looked at other show for good things to "rip off" (his words not mine) and in every interview has talked about how he copied this or that thing from another show. I think he's not creative enough to come up with anything for himself so he apes things he thinks are good.
The problem is when you remove the context and just mix a bunch of disparate bits from various shows together the whole is less than the sum of its parts. I don't think he realizes that though. It's like when he copied the death stick scene from TR but change the context so it doesn't work nearly was well. Or like when he decided to base Loki's character on Steve Jobs. WTF??!! That's might've worked for the Steve Jobs movie but Loki shouldn't feel like Steve Jobs. He should feel like Loki.
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The only positive thing about the Loki series I can come up with is the soundtrack. Honestly, I remember being excited when the show was announced and now I’m just waiting to get let down. I’m not going to have too high expectations, and if something good happens I will be pleasantly surprised and delighted.
Yup! the soundtrack is awesome. That's about it.
The recent Hyundai commercial had better Loki content than the actual show. Love that the advertising team just decided to do an ad with actual Loki bc the show character is totally unrecognizable and boring and not appealing. There's a reason so many ppl watched the early trailers but not the later ones. Ppl came to see Loki and they didn't find him in the trailers.
The show feels like it's about an entirely different, far less entertaining character.
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Did you notice the discrepancy in the Loki show with Loki’s last name? They call him Laufeyson a couple of times but his paperwork very clearly says "Odinson." Methinks somebody couldn't make up their mind until the last second and forgot to fix it so both say the same thing. Oof.
omggg. there’s so much sloppiness. Not only does the show get the big things wrong. It gets the little things wrong too, even tho those things should be so easy.
The show also makes a joke about people not understanding Loki when he speaks English, bc they forgot he doesn’t speak English, he speaks the Allspeak. And there’s a line in the DB Cooper bit where he says it happened when he was “young” even tho he’s 1500+ so a few decades ago wouldn’t be that long for him.
And they have his skin tone wrong - Loki’s supposed to be extremely pale. And his hair - they made it much frizzier than Loki’s hair, which even when short is pretty smooth and flat. And they say he weighs 500+ pounds but have him get shoved around easily and when he slams into things there’s no sense that he weighs more than you would expect.
I think it comes down to the writer not being very interested in his character and kind of disliking it bc he wanted to just write about his OCs and resented having Loki there. I wish they’d given the project to someone who had passion for the character and wanted to do him justice instead of make a mockery out of him.
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Perhaps the most OOC moment in the episode for me was when Loki allowed himself to be emotionally vulnerable and openly honest about expressing his real feelings with Mobius. I know he had a long day and all, but... it happened too soon and too easily. I've always thought of Loki as a much tougher nut to crack. Everyone seems to be fond of this ("I don't enjoy hurting people") scene, but for me it just seemed very... un-Loki-like. Am I alone?
You are definitely not alone! I completely agree! I talked about pretty much exactly that here. They should’ve called the show Lokiless because I don’t see Loki anywhere I the show. Everything about him - his hair texture, his skin color, his way speaking, his personality, his mannerisms, his expressions, his affect, his cultural background, his backstory, his motivations, his style of humor, his way of moving, his fighting style, his aesthetic, the movements he uses when performing magic - has been changed. absolutely everything. so it’s not the same character.
And the new character they’ve replaced him with is a dully and one note character who is not as entertaining to watch as Loki was nor indeed entertaining to watch at all imho. The show fails as a Loki show and it fails on its own merits. Even you accept the retcon of Loki’s character, what the TVA did to him was still horrific. And also if Loki is evil then the TVA is far worse. If the TVA isn’t evil then nothing Loki did can be see as bad.
The messaging of the show is dangerous. Look at the way fans and reviewers are accepting the show’s messaging and talking about Mobius’s treatment of him in a positive light and buying into the victim blaming and authoritarianism apologism. Not a single review has criticize the TVA or Mobius. They’ve all characterized their treatment of Loki as acceptable and deserved. It turns my stomach. It’s so irresponsible and offensive of Disney to put out that kind of messaging.
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"Waldron is treating mobius the way a very young and inexperienced fanfic writer treats their beloved annoying self insert" I know, right? He does lack experience, with credits so laughably small and yet, here he is, being given a whole ass show to write. Rookie mistake also, calling a character a fan favorite when the show's not even out lmao lucky for him, casual viewers won't be looking for his interviews or tearing them down like we are lol but still, the unbothered arrogance of it all, sigh
Yup. Mobius has all the hallmarks of a stereotypical annoying Mary Sue OC in a fan fiction that takes over the fic and is the bestest ever and is framed as being able to do no wrong even when they are very clearly doing bad stuff. even in interviews Waldron couldn't stop gushing about Mobius. And he couldn't even pretend to be enthusiastic about Loki's character. It's a very odd hiring choice. Also he's not that experienced so like ??? And his experience is in cartoons. The show definitely comes across as extremely cartoonish.
And stuff like the TVA being extremely evil but getting a pass for it might work in exaggerated cartoon comedy but in a live action MCU show it creates complete dissonance. But yeah. He obviously really likes Mobius and wants everyone else to as well. That's why in the show Mobius gets to constantly tear Loki down and get the better of him bc Mike wants him to look cool.
In one interview he mentioned that he had a time travel detective show he was working on before he made this. So maybe Marvel had him adapt that for Loki the way Creulla was basically just a separate fashion heist movie but they made it be about Cruella for name recognition. So maybe bc Loki got shoved into Mike's original project he resents the character.
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Personally for me, the reason I don’t have too many negative reactions to Loki’s first episode is because it really feels like a fan fiction that needed a bit more editing?
Like there are lots of bits that I like, but my brain goes “sweetie, it might have been better if you made this bit a little less exaggerated. I like this bit here with the character development but let’s make some of the dialogue more subtle. And hey! This is a brilliant idea though it does conflict with some things if you wanted it to be fully canon compliant”
Like no joke. This is how I watched it. And it’s a great idea but the execution needs a bit more work. And so I just can’t even be mad despite actively thinking, yeah Loki’s really ooc, but there’s a concept there for sure. It still has the obvious care and love in it, just a bit more editing was needed.
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Glad I'm not the only one who hated Loki's breakdown scene. Not only did happen way too early (episode 1? in front of a captor he just met?) but it feels incredibly OOC given how Loki was ready to choose death over even mentioning Thanos in TDW. Plus, that's not how therapy works! Plus having him literally tell us his motivations felt insulting. I'm not a child, Disney. Please tell me this isn't what passes for great writing these days. How the standard has fallen.
Exactly! Around the time of Avengers I think Tom Hiddleston said: "The thing with Loki is that, if he’s afraid, he won’t show it. He’s been highly trained, through the experience of his slightly traumatic life, to shield his fears." That perfectly matches how Loki was characterized at the time and how we saw him on screen and shows that what we took away was indeed the intent of the performance at the time.
They just totally change that characterization in the show. Loki would never open up like that. Loki's behavior in that scene was out of character. I really do think of the tv series character as Larry because I simply can't see Loki when I watch the tv footage. His hair is the wrong texture, his skin is the wrong color for Loki, his reactions are wrong, his dialogue is wrong, his movements and decisions and stance and personality are all wrong. So nothing about the character feels like Loki. All the little mannerisms and character tics and personality that brought him to life are completely absent.
And yeah. In addition to all of that even if we just view Larry as his own character that scene was still horrifying. That's not therapy! That's torture. Berating a recently suicidal person and telling them they’re inherently worthless and monstrous (exactly the reasons Loki wanted to kill himself to begin with) is not therapeutic. It's horrifying. The fact that this scene is portrayed as beneficial in any way is deeply toxic and offensive.
And on top of that. Having Loki literally turn to the camera and explain his motivation is 1) ooc but 2) insultingly bad writing. C'mon guys. It's too cringe to have the character do that!
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I have a feeling that this collaboration between Loki and TVA will not be as beautiful as some people think. In the trailers, it is revealed that Loki will get away from them a second time.
I hope! The problem is more with the framing tho rather than whether Loki temporarily escapes or not. So far the TVA are being presented as the good guys and moral authorities. That’s what all the reviews say bc the reviewers are casual viewers who just accepted the show’s messaging at face value. The interviews with the cast and crew also position it the same way. It’s so bizarre tho bc the TVA isn’t evil in a ‘well if you think about it’ kind of way. They are just straightforwardly evil. And yet they’re not presented that way. I guess maybe that’s Disney’s new thing. They did make a show about how the lady who skins puppies is sympathetic actually.
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If a criminal monopoly captured me, showed me a video of my mother being held hostage (which is what Loki first thought), told me it was my fault she was in danger, said I'd always be a worthless loser, left a fake escape route knowing I'd be caught, then said if I did this one job for them, I'd be off the hook -- 1) I'd have no question they're evil, 2) I wouldn't believe them, and 3) I'd cooperate until I found a way to escape.
Yup! Unfortunately Loki has to follow the script Disney wrote for him. So instead he’s gonna join them and it’s gonna be passed off as character development. Bc apparently going from being a pacifist outcast in a culture of warriors to knowingly and willingly taking the side of authoritarian murderous police is character growth according to Disney.
Fr tho. Why does he believe anything they say???! Why is he comfortably chatting to Mobius about how he had a bet with Thor?? It makes no sense. Even if you ignore the past movies and consider this character entirely separately, it still doesn’t have any internal logic. It feels like a caricatured parody that’s not meant to be taken seriously. it could work in a 5 minute sketch but not as an actual show imho.
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In theory, Loki's power should work in TVA, precisely because it's impossible. Loki is the archetype of a trickster, someone who finds solutions to problems. All other gods should be powerless except Loki.
That's a great point. What a cool concept! Wish the show runners had hired you. I think you probably would be disqualified tho on the basis of actually liking Loki's character and being interested in exploring it.
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[please blacklist spoiler tags: #loki tv series spoilers, #loki series spoilers, #loki spoilers]
I need to talk about the Avengers.
I just want to express how much I hate that the Avengers aren’t on the hook for all their time travel nonsense bc they were “supposed to” do it and Loki is on the hook bc he wasn’t.
I mean, I am glad that they addressed it right away - that Loki was inadvertantly caught up in the Avengers' time meddling, and that apparently they were doing what they were supposed to and that's why none of them were on trial, but - there are two things going on here that I have issue with. One is, of course, the scapegoating of Loki once a-fucking-gain, but the other is that there's a legitimate problem inherent in framing the Avengers' deeds as The Right Thing So There Are No Consequences, especially because it directly leads to Loki (and only Loki) being scapegoated since, apparently, someone's got to answer for all of this.
Why Were The Avengers Supposed to Undo the Snap??
Of all the possible options they could have gone with (such as reversing time back to just before the Snap happened), going back through time to gather the stones and use them to undo things five years later is, like, one of the worst?? Best case scenario, it implies that the TVA is ridiculously incompetent in managing the sacred timeline and worst case scenario, it implies that the TVA is ridiculously adept in managing the sacred timeline, if their goal is to have it be the worst possible timeline anyone could end up in.
The Avengers may have done an arguably good thing in undoing the Snap - I don't disagree that those people should've lived - but they also royally fucked over a lot of things in the process and left Earth (and presumably many many other worlds) in total post-Snap chaos while fucking off to die be with their families and/or start new lives.
This goes back to the plan itself. One of my many issues with Endgame is that not only is the plan convoluted and, frankly, stupid, but also I have a real problem with the concept of the Avengers just saving the world as they see fit, regardless of whether or not that's actually the best thing to do. (If the Russos hadn't done such a shit job with explaining what the Accords were actually supposed to do, then maybe this could have been addressed somehow - like, okay, together we may have the brains and resources to carry off this plan but does that mean we're the ultimate authority on whether or not we should? Maybe we should check with, like, the UN or something about this? [and it’s entirely possible the UN was mentioned and I have forgotten it bc I’ll be honest, I watched Endgame once and have bitched about it ever since.] I digress.)
The narrative in Endgame and into the MCU beyond plays like the Avengers only care about saving the world when they stand to personally gain from it (they want their friends and family back, they want to feel like they didn't fail, they have unilaterally decided that what they want is the Best Thing for everyone) and once the Good Deed is done and the smoke clears from the battlefield, there's no concern with saving the mess of the world they created.
TFatWS addressed so many of the problems with the post-reverse-Snap, which implies that the MCU (both in-universe and out) is aware that things are fucked up now. People's lives were literally ruined by what the Avengers did. Refugees are displaced. Humans are coming back to a world where they've been dead for five years and their loved ones have moved on and their homes have been sold and their bank accounts have been closed and they have no jobs. And that’s just on Earth. Yet no one (again, both in-universe and out) feels the need to hold the Avengers accountable for any of this.
Plus, what about the people who died as a result of the Snap but not from the Snap directly? What about the planes that fell from the sky when the pilots turned to dust? The cars that crashed and collided when the drivers poofed? Etc. Like, fuck all of those people I guess?
And who, exactly, is "supposed to" clean up the Avengers' mess now that the actual Avengers are either dead, old and living on the moon, or retired? Is it on Sam's shoulders alone (or, rather, Sam and Bucky's)? Is Peter Parker (yknow, the 15 year old Nick Fury went and recruited bc there was no one else) supposed to be fixing things?
The TVA takes responsibility for none of this. They sit back in their nightmare DMV-esque office and claim that all is as it should be but my question remains: please explain to me how the outcome of the post-Snap universe is ultimately satisfactory to anyone besides the Avengers?
There's also the fact that Loki figures out right away that the Avengers were engaging in some time travel shenanigans ("the cologne of two Tony Starks is hard to miss” lmfao Loki you snarky shit). Loki recognizes that there's been an opportunity created of which he can take advantage, but he isn't responsible for creating it. The Avengers messed up and created that opportunity so, even if they were supposed to be doing what they were doing, there are still no consequences for the fact that they made a mistake that allowed Loki to then branch off and create a new timeline.
Let's also say that we accept that the Avengers were supposed to undo the Snap exactly as they did. Okay, sure. BUT:
- Was Steve, then, also supposed to decide to fuck back off to the 1940s and marry Peggy (which created two Steves, right? The one who was married to Peggy all along and the one who was in the ice?? The TVA is just okay with two Steves?)?
- What is the actual point of Stephen Strange having the time stone and using the time stone both to gain the advantage over Darmammushumuuyourmom (I’m sorry, I can’t remember his real name) and to look at all the possible timelines to figure out how to defeat Thanos?
- How is it possible that there are 14 million potential timelines in which the Avengers failed if the TVA’s entire thing is that there can only be one true ring timeline to rule them all? The fact that Stephen can look ahead and determine so many outcomes based on the choices they're making would mean that people do have free will and that their actions aren't automatically dictated by what's “supposed to” happen. They had to make the right choices in order to get to the one timeline in which Thanos failed.
- What’s the point of Stephen having to protect the time stone, anyway, if there are presumably a few others in Casey’s drawer?
- On that note, if there are a lot of infinity stones hanging around in the TVA’s desk drawers, what makes the original six the specific, correct ones that Thanos had to collect in order to pull off the Snap and why is it then those specific six the ones that the Avengers had permission to go back through time to get in order to undo the Snap as the Timekeepers intended?
- And actually, in fact, if there’s only one sacred timeline and anyone who fucks it up without permission gets “reset” (aka made nonexistent, along with their timeline branch) then, again, why does Stephen have to protect the time stone? Either anyone who steals it was supposed to, or their timeline gets eliminated and the theft ceases to matter.
- Less significant but also still kinda significant is how Agents of SHIELD figures into all of this. The TVA knows that Loki killed Coulson but they don't know (or don't care?) that Coulson was brought back to life and proceeded, with his team, to go on and get heavily involved in time travel and going back and forth and bringing people from the past into the present? So the TVA is okay with Daniel Sousa leaving his timeline but not with Loki leaving his?
... I have literally confused myself with all of this, so if anyone followed my train of thought here, congratulations and maybe you can explain it to me lmao.
But here's my ultimate point: the sacred timeline that the TVA is tasked with maintaining is not sensical or linear. It's full of gaps and holes and people taking matters into their own hands to determine both their own fates and the fates of others. As a result, a lot of people suffer kinda needlessly based on the events in said timeline, and apparently it's perfectly fine for all of this nonsense to occur so that everyone else has some element of control -
- but Loki is literally the only one who is told uh, actually, no, you are supposed to live a shitty life and die a pointless death and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it bc it's supposed to happen.
What in the actual fuck kind of logic is that???
Thus, either the TVA (and the Timekeepers) are grossly incompetent, or else they're extremely competent and also really fucking shitty beings who just enjoy the needless suffering of others.
And somehow this is all Loki's fault!!
And then Mobius has the fucking audacity to say, to Loki's face, “you only exist to prop up everyone else and you, Loki Odinsonson Laufeyson mischief god and king of space lol, do not have any inherent worth or value as your own person. You were born to be a scapegoat and you will die a scapegoat and there's no getting around that, if we have anything to say about it.”
To quote Loki, in a very twisted way - yes, it's funny. It's absurd.
Does, uh, does this make sense? At some point I crossed over from meta-writing into straight up ranting and so, well, here we are.
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I’ve read fanfiction with better characterization than whatever the Loki TV show is doing. It’s not at Ragnarock’s “my eyes rolled so far back in my head they fell through my body and out my ass” level of painful, but it isn’t exactly nailing it either. I pray it’s all up from here cuz my god, have they been fucking up this character ever since after Dark World
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Yeah this is gonna be whiny, sue me
[LOKI SERIES SPOILERS BELOW]
While there are some little parts I enjoyed from the first Loki ep a lot felt ooc and weird and too comedic like it just doesnt take itself seriously
Ik this is only the first ep so we'll see and all
But boy do I LOATHE Mobius and I KNOW people are already shipping Loki w him and thats their business but I hate it sm because Mobius just is another abuser and manipulator??? Hes part of the TVA and the TVA have already made humiliated Loki and made him feel powerless and trapped
More trauma.. yay.. will he atleast be allowed to work through it????
Just.. idk.. Im trying to be hopeful and positive but I just.. it just doesnt feel like the Loki that *I* really like and have come to care for
Id imagine that Loki wouldve been quiet and observant and maybe a snappy sassy/sarcastic remark here and there but.. idk..
But what makes me upset is that I KNOW Im gonna feel even more left out of the fandom
I already do because the fandom is mostly cishet women it seems and Im very much not cis nor het nor a woman
And already the whole gagnarok thing and getting hell over not liking that??? I can only imagine whatll happen w that when it comes to the series
And obvsly people are allowed to like it! But when everyone likes it and you dont and youre this outlier thats.. pretty lonely
Its only the first ep ik but.. yeah
Just some thoughts I guess
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oh my god. the writing is so embarrassing. yes the performance is ooc but im not sure how anyone could deliver those lines and make them sound in character. but even if you view it as not loki the storytelling is so painfully clunky. loki really takes a break from his clown act to just straight up explain his motivations. no psychological complexity. no depth.
he just turns right to the camera Mobius and explains how he doesn’t like hurting people; it’s just a defense to hide his own feelings of weakness. What the fuck? Ok great. Let’s not have to learn anything about the characters by watching or through subtle storytelling or acting. Apparently all the characters have perfect self insight and can just tell the audience everything we might need to know, even it makes no sense for them to view themselves that way or for them to be opening up like that to the person they’re talking to.
the writing is so lazy omg. and there’s no subtly. no room for the audience to guess or to think. Did they think this would give me feels? It doesn’t bc it feels totally out of character and unearned and just like an extremely lazy writing shortcut. also this character doesn’t feel like loki. so im not emotionally attached to this new guy.
and if they’re pretending this new guy IS Loki even tho they haven’t characterized him like that it makes even less sense since it ignores Loki’s whole cultural background. He was RAISED IN A WARRIOR CULTURE! Fighting and violence was considered the norm. He was unusual because his original motivation was to STOP a war. He was more pacifistic than most people in his society. When Odin punished him it wasn’t for hurting people. It was for defying him and invading a world claimed by Asgard.
Also anyone who is happy to work for the TVA, a violent authoritarian self appointed policing organization that murders and enslaves people doesn’t get to talk to anyone about morality. Oh right. But Mobius is the writer’s chosen voice of reason so he's automatically right.
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Loki series initial reaction
Mixed opinions so far. I could write an entire essay on this, and maybe I will at some point, but here are my initial thoughts, starting with the negative:
I really despised the first twenty minutes. It’s so jarring. Loki’s dialogue, especially, doesn’t sound anything like Avengers!Loki. His speech patterns and entire dialect are suddenly different, much more modern and filled with too many Earth-specific terms with no explanation. There’s no easing the viewer into the difference, it’s just suddenly there and it’s horrendously whiplashy
The same applies to the presentation of his character. Avengers!Loki was grandiose and majestic and witty, even when he was being defeated. This Loki... isn’t. He comes across as juvenile, bumbling, over the top in more of a cringey way, and he’s the butt of the jokes that rely on his humiliation. He doesn’t feel like the same character from any of the movies to me, or, at least, not for the first twenty minutes
With the desert scene... Yes, it bugged me that his hair was suddenly shorter and didn’t just look like a messed up version of Avengers!Loki’s hair. And it also bugged me that Loki didn’t understand what the humans were saying in a different language. Was the Allspeak not working? Or if Allspeak doesn’t exist in the MCU, are we supposed to believe he studied the English language or that Asgard and Earth happen to share a common language?
I wanted Loki to put up more of a fight. I don’t mind him being defeated by people more powerful than him, but it felt like he resigned too quickly and allowed himself to be shoved around by them too soon. I wanted him to struggle more, it felt weird for him not to try harder to go all death and destruction and for it to not require more pain inflicted on him to get him to (reluctantly) go along with it
The humour in this show didn’t do it for me. It felt out of place and not even particularly funny to begin with. Yeah, yeah, I get it, they want their show to be irreverent and zany, whatever draws in the largest audience, right? But if they were going to go for that style of humour, it could be done so much better than how they did it here. And I’m reiterating please just let Loki be witty, please
Once it got to the part where Loki’s watching himself on the screen, everything got a lot more palatable for me and the last half has made me more hopeful
I’m liking Mobius so far. He actually tries to understand Loki and listens to him. He has empathy but he isn’t going to let Loki walk all over him either. Mobius sort of feels like a guide for viewers who are unfamiliar with analysing Loki’s character and not taking him at surface level, and he asks some of the right questions. I want to see where they’re going with Mobius and Loki’s dynamic
From the instant I saw Loki watching himself in the trailer, I was hoping he’d learn about his hand in Frigga’s death and his own death, and we got that! And more! We also got Odin's death and Loki and Thor’s reconciliation. I liked that they gave it time for the emotional impact to hit, this was the part that started giving me hope again. This was the first time when Loki’s character felt actually recognisable to me. Also, yes, I did enjoy the ouchies
The whole D.B. Cooper thing didn’t feel like something that Thor 1!Loki would have done in his past. It just didn’t. When I saw that in the trailer, I was hoping it’d be a variant Loki or our Loki having to be in disguise or something, but nope, it’s supposed to be part of our Loki’s past
Neat. By the sounds of it, Mobius will be ‘hiring’ Loki to help him catch a Loki variant. I was hoping for that and the play of Loki’s worst enemy being himself
He escaped faster than I thought the show would let him. I mean, he isn’t all the way out yet, and I don’t think he will be, but still, at least he managed to do something and tried to put up more of a fight. I’m still surprised there were no deaths though
The whole ‘we use Infinity Stones as paperweights’ thing... I get that they’re trying to establish the TVA as a more powerful entity than any we’ve come across in the entire universe, but at what point do you stop keeping having to one up the power of what’s already been established in the MCU? This isn’t so much a criticism as it is something I find interesting as a discussion point
On the bright side, at least most of the stuff I didn’t like in the trailers is out of the way now
I was hoping to come to a more solid conclusion about whether or not I’ll like the show after the first episode, but I’m still undecided. It’s so frustrating because a lot of the issues with it could have been so easily fixed. It’s set straight after Avengers Assemble, therefore Loki should feel like Avengers!Loki. I don’t know why that’s controversial. Just look at Avengers!Loki’s speech patterns and apply them! How hard could that have been? Even if they wanted more ‘accessible’ dialogue for him (and, yes, I’m tired of the anti-intellectual trend these days), they could have gradually eased him from the more Shakespearesque stuff to the dialect he has in Ragnarok, and that could have had an in-universe explanation of him picking up language/assimilating or whatever. But they didn’t. Just, bam, it’s different now because we said so and we don’t care if it doesn’t make sense. I’m so tired of things being constantly retconned and I still don’t know if I have the energy to justify it to myself to myself anymore.
But yeah, I think there’s a good chance of the worst being out of the way now. Could be famous last words, but my hope hasn’t been completely destroyed. The first half really didn’t sit well with me at all, but the latter half was far better, even if it wasn’t perfect.
And I’m sure I’ll think of a bunch of things I should have added to this list straight after posting, but oh well.
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