#it's okay to ship unhealthy ships if you acknowledge they're unhealthy

[stupid-sloot-headcanons]

You don't have to like her but I find it annoying as fuck when people exaggerate Ashley's xenophobia when they're oh-so-eager to ignore characters like Garrus when he's said multiple out of pocket things. Like he tells Tali that he hopes her people are properly contrite about creating the Geth, and when she shoots back to ask if that's how the Turians feel about the genophage, he just replies that it's different because the genophage was the right thing to do. Even fucking Mordin, the man largely responsible for the continuation of that genophage, acknowledges it was a mistake and he did horrific damage to a people that didn't deserve it.

When he remarks that Tali is attracting dirty looks in public and she explains that it's because Quarians are stereotyped as criminals because they're nomadic, he responds that it wouldn't be an issue if they just settled down on a colony and basically blames Tali's race for their own stereotyping and discrimination.

(This is also why I don't really like the Tali/Garrus ship, since Garrus never really seems to change his views on Quarians and he only apologizes for it in ME3 which...okay ig. He's one of the only characters who does so that's nice. Personally I wouldn't fuck w/ anyone romantically that made comments like that, but I'm def not Tali.)

Tbh every squadmate in Mass Effect shows some level of xenophobia, even if it's light or casual. Ashley also becomes less xenophobic and in ME1 is pretty reasonable: "Hey maybe we shouldn't let these aliens have free reign of the most advanced ship in our military", "Hey maybe humans should be as independent as possible since the Council by its nature of serving multiple nations can't ever have us as their top priority", etc. I think a lot of Ashley hate stems from the fact she dares to question and disagree strongly with Shepard often and...you know...women who loudly disagree with the protagonist in media tend to get a weird unhealthy disproportionate level of hatred. Weird. Wonder why.

#javik is WAY more racist and he gets barely a fraction of the hate ive seen towards Ash #and i love Garrus but im not gonna overlook his flaws and the shit hes said just bc it came from his sexy mouth #.mass effect #sloot bitches about things

[revvethasmythh]

Just saw a tweet saying that imodna’s codependency is what makes it (the ship) sexy and interesting. And I just can’t help but think, “so you like unhealthy? you like teetering on toxic? Are y’all (the shippers) okay? Get some help.” codependency is not as romantic as y’all (imodna shippers) think it is. It isn’t sexy or interesting to me, it’s concerning and alarming. But I know if I said anything I would be bullied more then I was in middle school. I wish people would stop romanticizing toxic behaviors or ignoring red flags. The the red flags are as bright as Ruidus’s fucking flare.

Okay, here's the thing. If a person is shipping something with the full acknowledgment that it's codependent and toxic? And they're vibing with it because they enjoy that dynamic in the media they consume? I don't have a problem with that. More power to them that they can enjoy it (loudly, I will say, we're talking about FICTION here. It's fine to like unhealthy things in stories). I've seen far more concerning ships than Imogen/Laudna and just sort of shrugged and walked away from shippers so long as they aren't jumping down my throat telling me the relationship is healthy or that I have to ship it etc. It's not my role to judge what people find sexy and interesting in fiction. And I've absolutely found certain toxic shit fun as hell in my media, too! I don't personally find it fun re: this ship, but if this particular flavor of codependency and toxicity are themes that someone is into and they're having a field day with it, and they're NOT bothering other people, it's none of my damn business.

If they ARE bothering other people, that's just down to people not knowing how to act right. No one should get bullied for enjoying ANY ship in a fandom, if fandom were operating at optimal settings, not you or anyone who enjoys the more toxic stuff. And imo, it's the people who want to defend the healthiness of an unhealthy ship that are more worrying, because they WILL bite back and I find that a lot more unpleasant than coexisting with someone who is minding their own business while liking an unhealthy thing.

#obviously I do not actually know the specific instance you are talking about or if said person is genuinely bothering people #but this is my opinion on the subject overall #asks #anon #also. like. the real crime of this ship to me is that it boring not that it's unhealthy (that's a bonus reason)

[sarcastic-trash]

Toilet Bound Hanako Kun: My Opinions On Ships

HanaNene (Hanako x Nene)

Okay, let it be clear, I do love this ship. I always have. However, I can love a ship while acknowledging it's faults. It has some parts that make me question how healthy it really is. To begin with, Hanako has made plans to grants Nene's wishes before without running them by her. Which proven by the Picture Perfect Arc and recent manga events, his methods are not great.

At all.

He's cause her to possibly loose her best friend because of this. Adding onto that, 91 and 92, makes me question Hanako's true motives. I hate to say it but, I find it odd how Tsukasa only decided to cause trouble after Nene summoned Hanako. Another point is - in a past post - I've pointed out there's evidence Hanako had been lying to Nene the entire time. It doesn't seem very healthy but, I appreciate their dynamic and want to see it become healthier.

I liked when Nene stood up for herself in the Picture Perfect arc. I don't like seeing her let Hanako waltz all over her.

However, why the hell are you guys claiming this is pedophilia? Hanako - quite clearly - has the mentality, emotional maturity, and physical body of a boy of about 13-14. Nene is 15, 16 at most. Hanako has been dead for a long time but in that time it seems obvious he hasn't matured physically, mentally, or emotionally. Therefore, it's not pedophilia because they're both - Nene and Hanako are both - children.

It's really that simple. However if it's revealed Hanako has happened to be faking being emotionally and mentally immature, than yes, I'd view him as a predator. However, there's not really any solid evidence supprting this. The lying is the biggest evidence for that idea we have but, he could have immature reasons for that.

Also there's no concrete evidence he was lying the whole time. It seems a bit weird with 91 and 92 but, nothing is really clear yet. I feel like this ship opinion may or may not change depending on how the manga progresses.

MitsuKou (Mitsuba x Kou)

Another ship that I highly enjoy. These two are so cute together and it's so wholesome - angsty though. Very angsty. I will admit though, someone admitted a part of the manga in which they could be seen as not so wholesome. When Kou was about to um - try to off himself to be friends with Mitsuba forever (his words not mine).

They were in a boundary - meaning Kou wouldn't die - and some people use this to say Kou was manipulating Mitsuba. However, nowhere did it say Kou knew it was a boundary. He just knew something weird was going on - same with Nene. Therefore, it wasn't manipulation however, it reveals Kou is in desperate need of therapy.

I feel like this is mostly healthy except for -you know - the fact Kou is willing to die. Some may argue that Mitsuba is too verbally rude however, Kou has been shown to not really be bothered by that. That said, Kou needs therapy to prevent this from being toxic.

AoiKane (Aoi Akane x Aoi Akane)

Okay, I like this ship too. However, it's not exactly heathy either. Let's see so, the fact Akane choked Aoi doesn't pass the vibe check with me - I get Akane was likely frustrated but, he had no excuse to choke her. That's just a no. His possessive behavior is something that likely comes from insecurity - he should see a therapist for that.

Then we have the fact that Aoi obviously isn't ready for a relationship. She'd told him no multiple times despite the fact she liked him - not to mention that stupid number system. There's nothing wrong with saying no but, her lying to him is my problem. It puts distrust between the two from the beginning.

Unhealthy communication - including lying - leads to a lack of trust, which would mean Akane's possessive behaviors in this relationship would get worse.

It's evident enough by the fake persona Aoi has that she doesn't love herself. Considering this she was likely self sabotaging - simultaneously hurting herself and him at once. While I ship these two cause they're cute, it is still a toxic pairing.

YamaKane (Yamabuki Lemon x Aoi Akane)

When these two boys got together I found it very funny, since it was a tree that caused it. It is kinda weird though because it was all because of the Confession Tree counts as a love spell. After they both got out of the spell, it ended. I'm nuetral about this but, I'd love to know how Akane never realized he was under a spell - especially since dude has to take those glasses off to sleep. Trust me, I've made the mistake of sleeping with glasses on! Not fun.

Cause spoiler alert without those glasses he should have been able to break from the spell unless he just went with it cause he was confused? This plothole makes me confused always and I'll never not be confused at this. Yeah I don't know how to feel about this ship cause that plothole has me questioning loads.

TeruKane (Minamoto Teru x Aoi Akane)

So, as you may tell if you've seen my page, I like this ship. I like their honesty with each other. The fact they can communicate in order to work together is a big part of why I like them cause communication is key.

Again, Akane may want to see someone about possessive behaviors because Teru is popular. So this ship does have a level toxicity in Akane's possessiveness. If he's possessive about Aoi he'd be the same way if he was crushing on Teru. As long as Akane seeks help about being possessive I see this being relatively healthy besides Teru's teasing.

However sometimes you tease, it's not really a big deal. Their honesty would help Akane's jealousy issues to not flame up if he were to get help. However, from where it stands right now, Akane's jealousy would be the worst thing about this. Therefore there is some toxicity.

TsuSaku (Tsukasa x Sakura)

No. I don't know why I just don't see it. There's something about it that gives me the ick.

NatsuSaku (Natsuhiko x Sakura)

See, I understand the appeal for this ship - especially with recent chapters. However, I really cannot see it - I love the idea of them being friends. I just can't see them as a couple.

So with my opinions out there what do you guys think?

(If you don't like any of the ships I do that's fine, just please be respectful! If you like a ship that I don't, no hate to you - it's just not my cuppa tea. If you like it, I respect that))

[canongf-archive]

i'm sorry that you had to deal with that awful anon :( but i am selfishly thankful that i came across your response because i feel similarly attached to fictional characters and regularly wonder if it's healthy like the anon asked, sometimes i try to shut it off and exactly what you described happens. i think it was the reason why i had been feeling so numb in the last few days, because i had been shutting those feelings off. i'm going to read your post several times over because it made me feel like it's okay to just feel my feelings and explore them in a safe space (wording it like that, it sounds genuinely silly to have ever thought it wasn't healthy, doesn't it?) sorry again that you had to deal with that, you are such a wonderful person with so much love to give and eddie is a really lucky guy to have you! i sincerely hope you have the best possible day, week, year...

💗 anon. i love u, i love u, i love u. 💗

i wasn't going to respond to it!!! i know that i don't owe anyone an explanation or justification and i was going to let it go. but i also know that i am not alone in this world!!! i know that i am not alone in the way that i feel and the way that i connect and the way that i love and i want so desperately for other people to know that they are not alone either!!! i am here!!! we are here together!!! so i wrote up that post and i crossed my fingers that it would be well received, even if i knew it wasn't the end of the world if it wasn't. but then!!! you found it!!! maybe you were supposed to find it!!!

it is okay to feel your feelings and explore them in a safe place!!! it's more than okay!!! we have our feelings for a reason. even if they're negative or disproportionate to the situation or whatever, they are there to tell us something. and it's our responsibility to listen!!!

i've been talking to my therapist about this a lot lately. sometimes big feelings can be scary and inconvenient, so we run from them. or at least i do! i'll look at anger and fear and sadness and even love, sometimes! and i'll say "i don't want to feel this right now," and i'll try to push it out. but anger and fear and sadness and love are not the enemy. they are my allies. they are trying to protect me and they are trying to give me what i need. even if it's wrong. i'm getting better at welcoming them in and letting them stay for a while so that i can learn.

and i think self shipping is perfect for this, because sometimes these feelings are easier to talk to and sit with when they have a name and a face.

and truth be told! anything can be unhealthy! too much of anything can be bad, a negative relationship with anything can be bad, and self shipping is no exception. but that doesn't mean that it's always bad! self shipping has been incredible for me and my self esteem and i know i am not the only person with this kind of experience! it's just about each person finding what works for them! and even if it does turn bad, even if someone loses their job and their relationships because they're so deeply engrossed in their fictional world, that's not a moral failing on the person. that's just a sign of something else that deserves to be acknowledged and taken care of.

anyway!!! this is just a very long way of me saying. you're not alone, not by a long shot. we are here together. there is nothing wrong with you for giving yourself the chance to feel what you need to feel, whatever that may be and however that may look like. i hope that you let these emotions in and you sit with them and i hope that they help you understand yourself better. you are doing so good.

i am so grateful for you. thank you so much for being here and treating me with such kindness and thank you for being one of the reasons why i'm not alone too. 💗💗💗

#this got rlly long i'm sorry!!! #i just like to talk and i had things i needed to tell u!!! #i'm sending u a hug. i hope u get it. i hope u know how much i care abt u. #sweetness.ask #advice.ask #eddie.ask #anon #long post

[youlooklikeasixtiesqueen]

jesus christ

#it's sunday morning in the year 2021 can we leave the shipwars behind us PLEASE #who gives a shit what you ship as long as you're not an asshole about it #it's okay to ship unhealthy ships if you acknowledge they're unhealthy #and honestly it's pretty childish to tell people to go fuck themselves because they're ok with a ship you don't approve of #yes this is about w*ncest #i just saw a post saying that if you have siblings and you're not disgusted by people shipping them then there's something wrong with you #no? i just literally don't give a fuck because the ship itself doesn't affect me in any way #yes a lot of wincesties are assholes but they would be assholes if they shipped something else too #anyway while i don't ship sam and dean i think it's fucked up to tell people who do they should die so let's not do that ok? #tdlr please stop with the purity shipping discourse i've been on this website for ten years and have seen it all #i've unfollowed three people in the past 24h because they were being assholes

[redjennies]

That’s when they switch from “this is the correct ship” to “here’s how the show failed the obviously correct ship.”

ehhh sorta? i'd say this is the case if the ship doesn't become a canonical relationship, but I've seen people do the whole "nobody cares about the people in my ship except the people in my ship" bullshit with both canon and semi-canon ships (read: video games where the player can choose a love interest) as well as non-canon ships.

for example, I've seen a non-zero portion of Beauregard Lionett fans who have insisted that their preferred love interest for her Is The Only Person Who Really Cares About Her™ regardless if that person is Yasha or Jester, and as a Beau fan myself, I just hate that. I hate that even as a person who ships her with Yasha. The Mighty Nein loves Beau so much and that's so important to her character arc. that she found a whole family, not just one woman, that loves her and values her as a person and not as what she can do for them. I don't need Yasha to be the only person who even remotely likes Beau for them to be a good ship because for me it's both a better character arc and a better love story if they're both are surrounded by people who would do anything for them and still find a deep profound love and understanding in each other.

similarly, I like Caleb and Veth as both a romantic and platonic relationship and they didn't end up together despite having a very "us against the world" dynamic in the beginning of the campaign. hell, that dynamic was what initially drew me to the ship because it is kind of romantic to be that invested in another person, but I didn't have some weird need for them to stay that way. it was good that they made other friends. to me, it makes their relationship more meaningful as they continue to branch out and grow but keep coming back to each other as a place of comfort. I don't need to pretend Veth's friendship with Jester and Yasha and Beau or Caleb's friendship with Beau and Fjord and yes, even Jester and Essek was completely meaningless and that those people didn't care about them for widobrave to be a good ship. they're allowed to grow. it's good for them to grow.

I don't know it's a weird to me to see people need to tear down canonical friendships to elevate your preferred romantic relationship, and it just betrays a very juvenile mentality. like I hinted at in the tags, it's okay to like a couple that really is an "only us" dynamic. I'm not here to say you can't like fiction that's a little unhealthy or even toxic. the Briarwoods are evil and codependent as fuck and still a tragic, romantic story. hell, even with ships that arent canonically a "us against the world" dynamic, I think it's a-okay to go ahead and write an AU fic where they are like that (and I would be a hypocrite to say otherwise because I absolutely have an evil!fjorester fic sitting in my notes app) so long as you acknowledge that it's not a reflection of canon.

but I do draw the line at forcing a ship into that dynamic at the expense of intentionally warping your perception of canon friendships to fit an unhealthy childish belief that your true love is the only person who will ever see you and love you and everyone else is worthless. it's just really gross to me and I will say I do think that enables really toxic ideas about romantic relationships.

#i know i got way off track but i did kinda want to explain this is not about All Fanon Bad #it's about i how i hate this specific fanon interpretation #asks #just thoughts really

[a-moth-called-mof]

Because I'm feel like it

I need to vent about my mixed feelings about Fwt for a sec

If I mentioned anyone's names or talk about anyone, I don't mean the actual irl person, I mean their characters in the Dream SMP

Tw // Manipulation, unhealthy relationships, toxic co-dependency(I guess?)

Disclaimer: I will be talking about some of my conflicting feelings on Fwt. This includes negative opinions on Fwt so if you are a Fwt shipper and you don't want to read about this, please feel free to scroll past this. I will also be talking VERY negatively about Character! Dream

Okay so I've been a Fwt shipper for a while now and I've gotten quite attached to this ship. However, ever since the November 16th War™, I've been having mixed feelings about this ship and shipping this ship is becoming increasingly hard.

Now, due to the lack of canon content and acknowledgement, shipping this ship was already hard but after the November 16th War™, it somehow became worse?

Okay time to rant about some of my problems with this ship:

( I'm not going to talk about how they basically never interact because literally every Fwt shipper and their mother has already mentioned it )

1. Dream is a bad person :/

Now Dream has never really been a good person to begin with but before the. November 16th War™, it was easier to ignore or downplay this because there were other villians like Wilbur and Schlatt. When Wilbur and Schlatt were still alive, it was easier to make Dream look more sympathetic and likeable because in comparison to both Wilbur and Schlatt, he could easily be seen as "not that bad".

But now that they're dead, you can't really do that anymore. Also the lack of "main villian" for season 2 is really not helping. (Because I'm a certified Technoblade apologist) I don't really see Technoblade as a villian, much less the "main villian", meaning this leaves only Dream left as a possible "main villian". This has kind of caused me to realise that Dream is a really shitty manipulative person and it's becoming harder and harder for me to keep ignoring that.

2. This relationship seems pretty one sided

(This is more of a minor issue honestly) Basically the only person who actively brings up and talks about this relationship is Fundy. Fundy's always talking about how much he loves Dream or how much he can't wait for their wedding, etc. Now this is fine and all but considering the fact Dream's only brought up their relationship like once or twice and doesn't seem nearly as enthusiastic about it as Fundy, it's starting to seem pretty one sided. It doesn't feels like they're mutually in love and more like one of them is just in love with other while the other awkwardly tries to ignore him :/

3. The possibility of Dream manipulating Fundy

Let's be real, the only reason anyone ships this ship (me included) is because they want good things for Fundy so the fact that there even is a very real possibility of Dream manipulating Fundy is kind of just Yikes, not gonna lie.

Now the fact that Dream kind of has a track record of manipulating people and using them for his own personal gain(This is such a red flag, I swear to god-) and the fact that Fundy is probably in one of, if the most, vulnerable place in his life right now(more on that later) really rubs me the wrong way.

Also Dream's lack of visible interest in Fundy really isn't helping his case whatsoever

4. The date of the wedding

The wedding is allegedly happening today(?) or at least soon. Honestly when I first heard the news, I was overjoyed but the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to hope it doesn't happen yet.

As mentioned before, Fundy isn't doing too well at the moment. He's going through a lot and I really don't think he's in the right mental state to get married right now. I feel like he, at least, needs to work on his issues before he can even consider getting married

5. Their current relationship in canon is pretty unhealthy in my opinion

They barely communicate and Dream just straight up hasn't talked or checked up on Fundy after the November 16th War™. Like I didn't expect Dream to apologise or anything but like HE DIDN'T EVEN CHECK UP ON HIM AFTER THE FUCKING WAR. DOES HE JUST NOT CARE??? DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON HOW HE JUST STOOD THERE WHILE HIS FIANCÉ WAS BEING BEAT UP BY THE FORMER DICTATOR WITH A GLASS BOTTLE-

Idk, I just don't really like their current relationship in canon

6. The possibility of Fundy developing an unhealthy co-dependency on Dream

(it's getting late for me so I'm going to have to be quick)

Okay so let's just say Dream isn't manipulating Fundy and they are genuinely in love. Well there's still possibility of Fundy developing an unhealthy co-dependency on Dream. Look, Fundy's going through a lot right now and I'm scared he's going to rely way too much on his relationship with Dream to keep him happy. Don't get me wrong, relationships can and should make you happy but they can't be only thing making you happy because that's extremely unhealthy and it will eventually overwhelm your partner, causing your relationship to fall apart

(Then again, I'm a random teenager on the Internet who's never dated anyone so what do I know :/)

I need to go to sleep soon so I'm going to have to end it there :I

All of that being said, this in no way means that I will stop shipping this ship but I just felt like I needed to acknowledge some of my problems with it. I am genuinely hoping they sort through their problems and have a healthy relationship

Also, I have been trying to write this for the past 2 hours and it is now midnight so I hope this at least made some sense

(Love how the majority of this is literally just me shitting on Dream and thinking Fundy can do better lol

Oh the struggles of disliking Dream, being a Fundy stan that just wants good things for him and being a Fundywastaken shipper 😔 /hj)

#mcyt #dream smp #dreamwastaken #fundywastaken #fundy #tw manipulation #tw unhealthy relationship

[mulderscully]

S"lvershewolf or whatever she has the most unhealthy obsession with ainsley. She said that Ainsley had to do something to teach Malcolm a lesson, and that's why she had to do what she did and that's why it's okay because he had to learn because he's an abuser too. That is what she said. I've never blocked someone so fast because that's what abusive parents say. I've blocked so many people the last week and I rarely block anyone!! Someone said good for her I saw it I know who you mean and I saw them on all these posts harassing people to defend ainsley before I blocked them. Another two people said how mysoginistic it is to call her out and how everyone 'hating' on her is sexist. It's only some people not even that many but it's so gross and triggering to keep seeing so thank you for your post. It's like people who say Martin's a good dad. I love Martin and Ainsley as evil people and they're such good characters for being bad, I can't stand people trying to pretend they're good just so they can feel morally justified of shipping them with other characters or liking them at all. like and ship them as being bad, that's okay! stop making excuses, you can like a villain! Stop trying to pretend all characters you like need to fit what you accept in real life by faking they aren't as terrible as they are because that's so much more untrustworthy then just saying 'yeah he's awful but really good looking and I want to like him but I'm not saying he's a good person.' at least on ao3 it's stories, and when they write victim blaming it's from a bad character. This is their real life selves doing the victim blaming and they're saying stuff like 'no, I get it she's in the right!' And if someone said that about a fic they wrote where bad things happened, where they didn't say 'this is really awful and mean obviously but it's just a story' but they said 'no, this is ok in real life and I defend the bad person's actions and think they're okay' I'd not trust them either and I've never seen anyone do that! that's how strange these few fandom people are. it's especially bad the people who defend by saying Malcolm deserved it or any of the other abuse his parents or team or anyone else have put him through. And I would call him out for abuse that bad too if he did and not watch the show more because he's not an abuser. It's so upsetting to see and he's not gaslighting. they don't understand it's not a term to throw around and they won't listen to victims of it in real life they ignore. I dont trust people so diehard obsessed with a character that they can't acknowledge when they do something horrible and instead say the victim deserved it. Ugh. This was long and maybe made no sense sorry but I needed to say it to someone.

so this was long, but it makes sense and i completely agree with you. i blocked a few people too over this.

to say that malcolm is an abuser is really, really unfair and plain untrue. malcolm does everything from a place of love and trying to help. when he fucks up he tries to make amends. words like abuse and gaslighting get thrown around way too often on here, and in no way do i think that scene is framed in a way that we are meant to agree with ainsley. we're supposed to be on malcolm's side, because this is his show. it's just a fact. i could write an essay about how refreshing malcolm's masculinity is because he so clearly wants to do and be good. he has a naturally gentle heart despite the world trying to break him. it isn't misogynistic to defend him lol

and i agree abt people who like martin or claim him to be a good father/loving. martin does not love malcolm, he wants to control and mold malcolm and malcolm is too good for that. he's too resilent and it will never work. i absolutely enjoy martin, he is funny, charming and cute. he is supposed to be. that's the point. but you have to remember what he is and what he has done. it's all a facade and a show. it's fake. him calling malcolm, "my boy" is a micro-way to have a sense of ownership on him, it's not a pet name.

ainsley, as far as we've seen, is being set up as a a villian. it isn't just that she killed someone, it's the subtle context clues around her behavior. from not caring about victims in order to get a story, to the flashbacks of her childhood mindgames and jessica's fear of her, all leading to her purposely traumtizing malcolm even after he came clean to her. it's all saying, "she is her father's daughter" which honestly had been a really cool twist imo as opposed to dark malcolm, which i don't think makes any sense with who he is.

it isn't misogynistic to say she's being written as a villian. you could say the writing is misogynistic, but i don't think it is. she isn't the only woman on this show. quite frankly i care much more about dani, edrisa and jessica than i do ainsley. if they wrote off ainsley for me to get more dani backstory, i would be competely fine with that.

but honestly, i think... sometimes people get genuinely charmed by serial killer characters through the screen and it's really an interesting phenomenon? as you said sometimes they feel like the character needs to be good to be justified in enjoying them which isn't true. but other times i do think some fall for the character's charisma and facade 😳

#reply #anonymous #prodigal son #anti ainsley #i guess lol #i'm sleepy but i'm glad u enjoyed the post!

[calamity-bean]

As a sex worker, I genuinely feel that shipping Charlotte with Haxby is whorephobic and gross. He's been endlessly horrible to her, and like shipping her with a guy who CLEARLY despises her profession is gross. I like Marney because he's one too, he *gets* it (though they're taking it in a gross "let me take you away from all this" direction, I wish they'd do a "Let's take these rich suckers for all they're worth" direction instead)

First of all, thank you for sharing your perspective. Sexwork is not an experience I have to draw upon, and I appreciate and respectthat you do have that experience and perspective.

I don’t have much to sayregarding Marney here. As I’ve said several times before, I like him, too, and althoughI think that he and Charlotte alike have their reasons for wanting to run away from their current life, Iabsolutely appreciate that you wish that their plot were developing in adifferent direction. That’s exactly how I feelabout Haxby right now! I wish that he, his role in the narrative, and hisrelationship with Charlotte were developing in a different direction — a directionmore interesting and more positive than the way it seems to be going.

That’s the central issue here, for me: development.It is central to my recent posts about Haxby, and it’s central to the notion of shipping him withCharlotte — or even of simply being interested in exploring the dynamic theshow began between them. And, to more specifically address your message, Ithink development gets to the heart of what our disagreement seems to be. Becausewhen it comes to the issue of whether or not shipping any given characters isgross (which, as I’ve said before, is a debate as old as fandom), it seems tome that part of the answer depends upon: In what way are they being shipped?

On this matter, of course, I cannot speak for the wholefandom. I know only my own thoughts and the thoughts of those who’ve been kindenough to discuss the subject with me. But for me, at least, the appeal ofCharlotte/Haxby — whether as a “ship” or simply as a plot arc — hasnever been anything like, “Oh, Haxby is a great person right now,and I want Charlotte to be with someone who disdains her and her entireprofession.” It’s more like … “Wow, okay. Charlotte and Haxby have this immensefriction between them, but also these surprising moments of awkward sympathy,and this whole thing is just very unexpected and interesting. I hope the show doesn’tabandon this dynamic or act like their more sympathetic moments never happened,because I can imagine how their relationship could lead to really intriguing positivecharacter development for them both.”

As things currently stand: Is Haxby himself whorephobic?Yes. He takes a very dim view of prostitution and believes that “all harlotsare damned.” Has he been horrible to Charlotte? Sure, just as she’s beenhorrible to him. As of 1.06, they have each insulted the other, to their faces as well as behind their backs, and schemed to have theother expelled from the household and/or humiliated. Not to mention pettythings Charlotte’s done like puking in his hat or spitting plum pits at hisdoor. As I discussed further in this previous ask,I’m not interested in glossing over Haxby’s faults, and although I find their bickeringand scheming amusing, I of course don’t want either of them to actually be in arelationship in which they despise and disrespect their partner. But that’swhere character development comes in. And I’m not trying to pull character developmentout of thin air, either: Harlots did,in fact, lay narrative groundwork for it, at least through episode 1.05.

Take these two back-to-back scenes of him at Mary Cooper’sdeathbed in 1.02. In the first, we see him sneering (for which he is rightly rebukedby Charlotte) that “this whore is condemned by God” and that “her sins aredragging her down”…

…And then, in his very next scene — after he’s been startled and screamed at by Mary, who’s hallucinating that he’s literally the devil — we see him praying to that very Godhe claimed condemned Mary to redeem her soul. “Take, O lord, the soul of thissinner, Mary. ‘Tis within the power of your grace to save…” he prays, whileCharlotte tearfully soothes Mary in her final moments.

Once Mary has passed, Charlotte sharply silences Haxby, and they share a moment of very awkward quiet together, in which he looks extremely uncomfortable and she’s near to tears.It’s a situation we see reversed in 1.03, when it isCharlotte who starts out choking back cruel laughter at the humiliation she’sengineered for Haxby (“Hold my pisspot, Haxby!”) … only to end up looking profoundlyuncomfortable while he endures his own moment of embarrassing vulnerability.

These are the things that I, and other shippers (or just “peoplewho are interested in this dynamic,” regardless of whether they “ship” it, perse) I’ve spoken to, want further explored. I want to see their volatilerivalry be used to pry open the vulnerabilities, contradictions, and moments ofuncomfortable sympathy we’ve seen exposed in some of their scenes together, inhopes that they could each develop more sympathy for each other, come to abetter understanding of one another, and (for Haxby in particular, since thenarrative already gives us plenty of reason to sympathize with Charlotte)become more likable, more admirable people. 

After all: we were initiallyintroduced to Florence Scanwell as a harsh, judgmental woman who’s done farmore sneering about harlots and damnation than Haxby has. Yet she’s beenafforded character development that allows us to better understand her, allowsher to confront contradictions within herself, and overallportrays her in a more sympathetic light. I love that. I love that Florence is getting character development, because I love when characters in general are complicated and neither wholly good nor bad. Could Haxby not likewise receivecharacter development? He’s an asshole, sure, but at least through 1.06, is he beyond redemption entirely?

Not that Haxby was ever entirely horrible,mind you, or entirely unsympathetic. In the beginning, at least, he’s just a beleagueredservant whose resentment of Charlotte seems to be rooted primarily in his jobrather than in the disdain he has for sex workers. Proper management of Howard’s— and, perhaps more importantly to Haxby, Lady Caroline’s — estate is Haxby’sresponsibility and livelihood, not to mention a legacy inherited fromgenerations of service to the estate. And as Lady Caroline herself tellsCharlotte: “[Howard’s] estate falls into disrepair. You are ruining him!” I don’tknow who the initial aggressor was in Charlotte and Haxby’s little war, but Ican see where Haxby’s coming from.

The problem, for me, is not that Haxby has always been irredeemableor could not be developed into a more sympathetic person (in a way that felt organic within theestablished narrative). The problem is that, as of 1.06, the narrative seems in danger of throwing out those early moments of sympathy and potential and reducing him to aflat antagonist. While writing this reply, I got another ask (thank you, anon!) directingme to The A.V. Club’s review of 1.06:

“I’m disappointedin how Haxby’s arc is going; we’re up to the ears in craven, feckless men, andI had hoped his power game with Charlotte would be the beginning of somethingmore complex and not just more reason for spite. Spite, he already had plentyof.”

And that … pretty much sums up in about 50 words what I havespent doubtless far too many on. Forgive me; I’m not known for my brevity. Andit’s becoming difficult to discuss my own disappointment in Haxby’s arc withoutdiscussing 1.07. I think I may have to make a separate post more explicitlyexplaining my feelings about that, although now I fear that much of it may beredundant to what I’ve written here. (I considered doing so here, but I don’t know what episode you’re on, and readmores haven’t been working on my asks.)

At any rate: thank you for indulging my rambling. Shipping in general is such a complicated and thorny subject, and I’m not trying to convert anyone to this ship or todiminish anyone’s enjoyment of Charlotte’s relationship with Marney. But I hopethis has done something to explain why I have found Charlotte and Haxby’srelationship so intriguing and so ripe with potential for character developmentdespite acknowledging the ways in which it is unhealthy as it currently stands.

#harlots hulu #haxby #charlotte wells #chaxby #haxlotte #harlots meta #my meta #op #asks #thepeacockangel #harlots