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#it doesn't excuse her actions but if every other male character can get redeemed then so could she
magnetic-rose · 3 years
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characters who have redeemed themselves in season 3:
- demetri
- daniel
- sam
characters who i still love but they are on THIN ICE right now:
- hawk
- tory
characters who i wish could get written off the show completely like i really fucking can’t with them:
- robby
- kyler
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hamliet · 2 years
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Watching/listening to the RWBY Volume 8 commentary (something I recommend doing for all volumes btw), when they came to the episode with Cinder's backstory they explained their intention as making us "kinda feel bad for Cinder, but not completely sympathize" with her. So contrary to what the "male authority figures bad, angry evil females actually good" crowd believes, I'm starting to think a Cinder redemption arc has more or less been thrown out the window.
I disagree with your conclusion, but I do agree that the sentiment does highlight what I see as an example of misreading among the fandom.
For why I disagree, I have a rule: never ever ever ever take creator commentary without a shaker of salt. No creator is going to give away secret future twists in a statement, and sometimes they outright lie. See for example Horikoshi Kohei once saying that Shigaraki couldn't be redeemed, when he is now being redeemed. Creators trying to explain their works face an impossible task and often contradict themselves, because we use stories to explore complex ideas a lot of the time. To quote Dostoyevsky:
“Don't let us forget that the causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them.”
But this principle aside, I think you're missing context. The context of the Volume 8 commentary is, well, Volume 8. Cinder seemed to be on a precipice here and made choices that led to her spiraling further into villainy. Of course you want to set up sympathy, but you're not going to have the audience screaming for her redemption right before she makes a horrible choice (or series of horrible choices). That's not a great writing choice.
Sympathy for a character must matter; to quote a Jenny Nicholson, the worst thing a work can do is make fans feel stupid for caring in the first place. If they are asking us to care about Cinder, even if not excuse her, I very much think that's in line with redemption.
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However, I also have been saying over and over that I do not think Cinder will survive her redemption, and this quote kinda reinforces that to me (with grains of salt!)
I've talked about this at length before, but just to reiterate: I'm not against redemptive death even if it is one of my least favorite tropes; the reason it's a least-favorite trope and gets pushback lately is because it's become not only over-used but cheapened (as in, the set up is not specifically for this, and the writer is clearly just taking an emotional punch and avoiding answering other difficult questions like what if they survived?). I don't think this will be the case with Cinder. I'm not opposed to her surviving; the set up currently though, what with Cinder having a major role in the two major tragedies so far (both with her killing girls who are associated with red, just like Cinder is) doesn't look good. Plus, I think the set up is for Emerald and Mercury to survive their redemptions, and hence those pesky forgiveness questions will not necessarily be avoided.
But! As I said earlier, I do think your ask highlights the fandom issue. I think RWBY is the Twilight Zone of fandoms: I've never seen a fandom have such double-standards for male characters. Every other fandom, the female characters are the ones that get the double standards. And I know there is a subset of dudebros on YouTube and Rebbit (probably?) who probably still embody this, and are still licking their fragile toxic masculinity after RWBY deconstructed it and the girls in heels and short skirts sometimes are ending up with other girls instead of them.
This fandom, though... I'm sometimes baffled by how Mercury is treated in comparison to Cinder. Like, I know he has less development, but his backstory is such a punch, and every time he appears on screen his conflict is built up, that I am sometimes stunned that the woobifying is placed on Cinder and not on him--and like, by all means woobify both, but sometimes I see analyses that literally pit Emerald + Cinder against Mercury as Redeemable vs Irredeemable, and that is just textually wrong. Merc's the one who has the extreme wooby backstory and is likely to end up friends with RWBY+JNOR. He has the set up to survive redemption. He's clearly an abused child still being abused. Like, he's Cinder trapped with the Madame, wherein his Madame is Tyrian and Salem, and he has no Rhodes. I do not like this. I do not like this at all.
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Like, Mercury gets called out on smiling after Beacon's destruction as an example of how he's truly sadistic while people handwave Cinder's murder of Pyrrha--which was fully unnecessary, by the way, because Pyrrha was already defeated. Cinder just killed her because she wanted to kill her for... reasons. I'm not saying write texts on how Cinder is the worst or anything; I love her and think she's going to ultimately be the one who saves everyone, but my goodness, be intellectually honest with yourselves.
Anyways. I do think the fandom has issues, though honestly those issues are probably reactionary and caused by legit pain (how female and queer characters are treated in 99% fandoms). But that doesn't make these reactionary takes textually supported or fair, or even not uncomfortable in their real world subtext (male abuse victims... do face obstacles in having their pain recognized).
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aquafaith · 3 years
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My lengthy, angry ACOSF rant review.
Spoilers, TW for mental, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.
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I loved ACOTAR. I still love ACOTAR. I always will love ACOTAR. But every book afterwards made me give up more and more. ACOMAF romanticized an abusive relationship and assassinated characters for the author's convenience. ACOWAR was a bunch of boring and inconsequential death scares. ACOFAS was all-round dreadful. And each book kept shitting on and pushing away Lucien for no reason.
I'd like to preface this by saying I hated Nesta too. I hated the way she treated Feyre in ACOTAR especially, and I wasn't even too excited for this book because I wasn't that keen on Nesta as a character.
Nesta's POV and her backstory changed my perspective. It does not excuse her actions. All Nesta stans can hold these characters accountable for what they do - trauma is a reason, not an excuse. I, and many others, sided with Nesta because of the way she's treated by everyone else in this book. Also, if you're going to hate Nesta for not teaching Feyre how to read and letting her hunt at fourteen, (which I did, and are very valid things to hate), AT LEAST hold Elain accountable too.
This book. This fucking book.
Shall we start with the intervention? Feyre on her little power trip thinks that her boyfriend that hates Nesta and Nesta hates back, Nesta's ex-best friend, and her possible mate who she never talks to should be at this stupid fucking intervention??? Excuse me???
Remember in ACOMAF when Feyre wouldn't shut up about how rich Rhysand is? Feyre literally has four or five houses and is always talking about how much jewelry and lingerie she can afford because Rhysand is so rich??? Well, Nesta has a few shots. So you know what Feyre does? Humiliates Nesta at this "intervention", TEARS DOWN HER HOME, and forces her to go to the Illyrian training camp.
That was the god awful premise for this book.
Did you think Elain wasn't there because she was against the "intervention"? Nope! She was packing Nesta's belongings without permission.
Remember in ACOMAF when it's made a big fucking deal that locking up a traumatised woman is extremely damaging? Well, when Nesta decides she doesn't want to be in Illyria, Feyre locks her in the House of Wind. Nesta can't fly, so her only way of leaving is down the TEN THOUSAND STEPS, that Feyre KNOWS Nesta isn't capable of climbing.
Feyre's pregnant. In ACOFAS she randomly decided that she wanted a baby to remember Rhysand by if he dies. Which doesn't make any sense because they made that stupid fucking death pact in ACOWAR. It's just SJM superimposing her pregnancy onto her early 20's protagonist. Ignoring the fact that Feyre isn't ready for a baby and Rhysand CERTAINLY isn't, and with a war just ended and another looming and so much trauma and a DEATH PACT are all such horrible circumstances to bring a child into, Feyre is already pregnant. Remember when SJM made a big deal about Fae babies being so hard to conceive, and Feyre said in ACOFAS they wouldn't have to worry for a long time because it can take years to conceive your first Fae child? Well it's been no more than 3 or 4 months and Feyre's already pregnant. Yep.
Also the birth will kill her. Because of course it will. Rhysand KNEW this, and still agreed to try for a baby.
There's no solution. Abortions don't exist for some stupid reason, and a C section would apparently kill Feyre?
(Wasn't this book supposed to be about Nessian?)
In ACOWAR, Cassian was on the battlefield with his entrails around his knees. Someone had to literally hold his guts in for him, and he's fine, but you're telling me a C section would kill Feyre?
Don't worry, this is just setting up the AWFUL ending to this book.
ACOSF amounts to Nesta being gaslit into believing her abusers are right. Her friends and family slut shame her and shame her for her lifestyle constantly. Cassian says it took him decades to work through some of his trauma, and he tried to drink and fuck it away too, but suddenly when Nesta does so it's heinous? Nesta's barely twenty five and she's expected to cope better than these ancient immortals.
Hell, didn't SJM write ACOMAF? Nobody expected Feyre to pick herself up so quickly. The IC (excluding Rhysand) respected her boundaries for the most part and understood when it was grief, trauma, and turmoil that made her angry, sad, want to be left alone, etc. But that's all forgotten here.
Amren also compares Nesta to the people in, and says she belongs in, The Court of Nightmares. You know, the murderers, abusers and rapists? This innocent woman who had a few shots and a bit of sex is on par with them, apparently!
The sex scenes.
SJM is scared to say vagina so she says sex.
She says seed to mean semen.
Apparently the word cunt turns SJM on. I just found Cassian saying that kinda cringe because I'm Bri'ish so the word cunt really isn't a big deal.
Back to the baby killing Feyre, because this is definitely what we all wanted from this book as indicated by the change in covers and format and title... Rhysand decides not to tell Feyre. He tells her friends and family, and tells them not to tell her.
SJM loves sweeping Rhysand's abuse from the first book under the rug and claiming it's always about Feyre's choice... where is that here, MAAS? WHERE IS IT?
Anyway, when Nesta rightfully decides to tell Feyre (although it is kind of out of spite), Rhysand threatens to kill Nesta.
And I believed him. With the way he treats his """mAtE tHaT hE lOvEs sO mUcH""" and all the people he's mindlessly killed before, do you really think he wouldn't kill the person who gave Feyre an inch of autonomy?
So what does Cassian do? His lover who he cares deeply about and suspects is his mate has received a death threat from tHe mOsT pOwErFuL hIgH lORd iN hIsToRy.
Cassian simply gets Nesta out of the court.
EXCUSE ME?
He doesn't breathe ONE word to Rhysand about this. This Illyrian WARRIOR who fought with his GUTS HANGING OUT didn't dare step up to the hIGh lOrD who he considers his brother and sparrs and fights with all the time?
Cassian literally does nothing.
Was it not Rhysand himself who said Mated males are dangerous? Can kill anyone who looks at their mate? Can be dangerous simply leaving the house? Rhys and Feyre both pull the Mate card to justify their bad actions on the other's behalf... and Cassian just tried to get Nesta out of the court?
Also, this High King bullshit.
I swear to fucking god, if SJM DARES to make this abusive, power-tripping, mOsT pOwErFuL hIgH lOrD eVEr, husband-insert of hers hIgH kInG, I will fight her in the street.
My beloved Lucien is in this book. Only for him to be used and shat on.
I really liked it when he calmed Cassian down with just a look though. Yes please fox man.
Helion is also in this book. Nothing to do with Lucien.
Eris is also in this book. ERIS. Lucien's eldest brother. The same one who abused him for years, but according to SJM he's slightly better, because at least he didn't agree to kill Lucien's lover. He betrayed his daddy that one time, therefore Eris is good. Y'know, the same Eris who abused Mor? Left her laying on the Autumn Court border with a nail in her womb? Well SJM is going back on her own canon to redeem yet ANOTHER abusive male, while continuing to demonize Tamlin for things he only happened to do when SJM decided the villain from the first book was sexy.
Nesta and Cassian are Mates.
Remember when Mates were supposed to be a rare and sacred thing? Now SJM dishes them out like Oprah.
I don't want these characters to be mates. I want to see them slowly fall in love. But SJM is incapable of writing that so she forces them together with the mAtInG bOnD. That's literally the only basis for most of these relationships, Feysand especially.
The only relationship where the bond would make sense is between Helion and The Lady of Autumn. Who still isn't named. But I will die on the hill that they're mates, I can feel it between them.
I wanted someone to die in this book. I predicted that it would either be Helion or Tarquin, but Tarquin isn't even in this one.
And the ending.
SJM can't write a decent climax, so she kills both Feyre and Rhysand for the second time. Yep.
The baby is being born which stupidly kills Feyre, and thankfully takes Rhysand with them.
Nesta decides to save them. Bad choice. But she decides to save them! Because she's so powerful and she ATE THE CONTENTS OF THE CAULDRON and she's CONNECTED TO THE MOTHER.
Do you know what happens.
Nesta loses her powers.
NESTA.
LOSES.
HER.
POWERS.
The powers we've hardly seen, the powers that were briefly mentioned and used ONCE in ACOWAR, then we saw like two flashes of in this book? They're GONE now. GONE SO NESTA CAN SAVE HER ABUSIVE SISTER AND ABUSIVE HUSBAND WHO ABUSES THEM BOTH.
Nesta is just an Amren now. They both fought for their powers, and had to give them up to save people who didn't deserve it. Now they're anticlimactically trapped in powerless bodies.
Also, and I can't BELIEVE I didn't originally include this - do you know what else Nesta TRADED HER POWERS FOR?
Illyrian anatomy so she can carry Cassian's baby one day.
EXCUSE ME?
I am so fucking SICK TO DEATH of the narrative that every woman needs a man and children to be happy. SJM clearly loves this because she's literally only keeping Amren and Nesta alive now to be sex objects to their partners and nothing else seeing as their POWERS WERE RIPPED AWAY FROM THEM, and now NESTA TRADED THOSE POWERS TO HAVE A BABY SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW SHE WANTS? Nesta does NOT strike me as a motherly type. She's the wine aunt, she and Cassian are the couple that go on holiday a lot and and babysit their nieces and nephews, but nope. Nesta HAS to have children.
The Feysand baby is called Nyx. That's just so underwhelming, you go from these huge, multiple syllable names like Amarantha and Morrigan and Lucien to Nyx? I get it's supposed to be unique but it's not even meaningful. It's just more shit-flavoured icing on the hAHa nIgHt uWu cake. I prefer Renesmée.
Nesta is wrong somehow. She says she's sorry as she's saving them. FOR WHAT? For being a little rude to Feyre as all sisters are? And rightfully hating your sister's abuser?
Oh yeah, remember in ACOWAR when Nesta took care of a comatose, starving Elain for months? Elain is randomly okay now because she takes care of her mental health the stereotypical way of baking cakes, and not drinking and fucking, which she shames Netsa for.
Remember the slut shaming, demeaning comments that the whole iNnEr cIrClE made about Nesta? They all expect apologies from her. For some reason.
Nesta has done nothing wrong. She coped with her trauma and minded her business in her own ways, and she's expected to apologise to the people who control and emotionally abuse her.
Nothing that any of these characters did to Nesta is right. Nesta wasn't okay at the end, this wasn't Nesta's healing story. This is Nesta being shamed and degraded until she submits.
Oh I can't believe I forgot to write this in my first draft of this review, do you know how Nesta "overcomes" her grief about her Father's death and her conflicting feelings about him and his life and her guilt? When she visits his grave for the first time, she takes Nyx.
NYX.
She holds NYX up to the grave and talks about how it's his grandson.
GO AWAY YOU STUPID DEMON BABY THIS IS NOT YOUR BOOK.
Speaking of, it's revealed that Nesta was abused by her mother and grandmother in this book? Something we were all looking forward to is seeing more of the Archeron's mother seeing as Feyre was so young when she died, but... nope. She gets a few vague mentions, and this newly revealed abuse is entirely glossed over. Nesta was also actively groomed by an older man at 14. But SJM glosses over this because of course she does.
Finally, the bonus chapters.
My edition came with a bonus chapter from Feyre's POV. It was pointless and I hated it.
There's another bonus chapter from Azriel's POV. Once I'd finished this book, he was one of the few characters I still harboured a shred of respect for.
Then I read his bonus chapter.
This exists to purely objectify Elain.
Whether you ship Elain with Azriel, or Lucien, or neither, this chapter is disgusting. He thinks about her coming on his tounge, and other things simply just to please him.
He then dares to suggest that "the Cauldron picked wrong" in choosing Lucien as Elain's mate?
No Azriel, SJM picked RIGHT in not giving each Archeron sister a bAt bOy.
Rhysand does the only right thing he's ever done by telling Azriel to stay away from Elain, but then he has to ruin it by clarifying that it's only so they can manipulate and use Lucien more.
Oh, and Azriel wants to kill Lucien.
Need I remind you that Lucien respects Azriel? Lucien is another victim of the Night Court's needless, baseless torment, and Azriel is no exception.
Lucien stays well out of Elain's way because she makes it clear that she's not interested in a mate, but Azriel wants to kill him simply for being her mate.
Lucien has done nothing. And I mean literally NOTHING to warrant any of this treatment. From the bAt bOyS, from Feyre, from his family, from SJM, from the deluded part of this fandom that think he's done wrong. NOTHING.
All I liked about this book was the Lucien scenes (which is a given), ((although I hated the way everyone talks about him behind his back)), Nesta's relationship with the house, Emerie and Gwyn, the evidence that Gwynriel is endgame and subsequently Elucien, and the book love. Everything else was horrible. Oh, and Nesta hates Rhysand. I love that for her, because everyone else bows at his feet.
Oh yeah, when Nesta DARES suggest that Rhysand is an "arrogant, preening asshole" which I think is a compliment, Cassian can't take Rhys' cock out of his mouth for one second, and has to get mad at her for having an opinion. Don't even get me started on Azriel in that scene.
If each book after ACOTAR made me slowly give up, this book made me give up altogether. I cannot go on to support this victim-blaming, abuse-forgiving, misogynistic series. I've given up on SJM, and the only characters I care about anyone are Lucien, Nesta, Helion, and Tarquin. I'll continue to read this series to see if SJM redeems herself, but I'll be downloading them for free. I'm not giving this piece of shit any more of my money.
I hope we don't get the Lucien book. I don't want her to slaughter my fox in the way she slaughtered LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE.
Thanks for listening.
Edit: I put the review on Goodreads!
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