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fortunatelychaoticphantom · 2 years

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I think it is also important to note that the palestinians are in the area they call palestine because they colonized it, arab conquest and onwards - doesn't mean I don't support an independent palestinian state in the palestinian territories or think israel is blameless or that reparations aren't owed, but the framing as if the indigenous people dispersed by the colonizing empires returning is the actual act of colonization weirds me out.

Original post for reference.

Okay, so it's a bit more complicated than that. And by "bit" I mean A LOT.

I think one of the central problems in the entire conflict, a major crux that is harming any and all attempts at reaching a solution is that we are trying to solve a literally ancient problem with modern tools. This is incredibly important to understand when we speak about the territories of "Israel" and "Palestine".

The short answer is that our (as in the popular laymen) definition of what "Israel" means in a historical view is completely wrong, and we were never alone here to begin with. There are certain aspects that I agree with you about, and there is a LOT of hypocrisy on the Palestinian side (as well as Western Leftists), but the fact is that they are very much indigenous to this land just like us. The problems is, like I said, what exactly do we call "Israel" in the first place.

Now, here is the long answer.

We need to break down the meaning of Israel first, and there are five of those:

Yaacov - First and foremost, the man, the legend, the asshole. Yaacov, or Jacob as English speakers might know him, was a biblical character that at a certain point in the story was given another name - Israel - and is considered to be the "father of the nation", which leads us to...

The people of Israel - the name that was given to the Hebrew people, or the Jewish people, after their legendary ancestor.

The Kingdom of Israel - one of the two ancient kingdoms of the Hebrew people*. (*I'm not gonna go into the question of whether the Israelites actually saw themselves as Hebrew and as a single People with the Judahites, because that's just way way way out of the scope of this tiny answer). This is the older, more powerful and more affluent kingdom that existed from around the middle of the 10th century BC until its destruction by the Assyrians in the Sargon II campaign of 720 BC, when many of its people were exiled, it completely lost its autonomy and was divided into 5 provinces, the most famous one of which being Samaria, named after the former capital of the kingdom (Shomron). At its prime, the kingdom's borders were these: On the Mediterranean shore in the west from around modern Rishon LeTzion north through Jaffa and all the way to Haifa. In the north the Galil and Ramat HaGolan. In the east it followed the Jordan river until about Beit Shean, where it veered east of the river to what is modern Jordan, to the Heights of Gilead (depending on the period and who won the most recent war of course...). And in the south it bordered the Kingdom of Judea, north of Jerusalem (probably around the area of modern Ramallah). Other major cities that were a part of this kingdom were Shechem, Jericho, the aforementioned Samaria, Dor, Meggido, Hazor.

The Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) - the geographical region that corresponds to the modern definitions of what certain people want the Full Israel to be and others want the Full Palestine to be. In this context, both of these names are stupid. This land is actually and more accurately called Canaan, as this is what the actual people who lived here and their neighbors called it, besides the specific names of kingdoms within it. Also, depending on your definition (weird modern, insane modern, normal ancient), this territory also includes certain areas in Jordan, Syrian and Lebanon. The names of this land were changed throughout the years by the people who conquered it, usually dividing it to different provinces, pahavot, and so on, until it was pretty much known just as Palestina by the Byzantine period (I think?? this is way out of my periods of expertise... I have seen the other side of the zero in like a decade).

The country of Israel - you know the one... the one we love to hate and hate to love... a country that exists in the modern world with... certain borders. Sometimes. Depending who you ask.

Now, that's Israel. But we need to talk about the other one. Yehuda (or Judea or Judah at different periods). This is the second of the two ancient Hebrew kingdoms. This is the smaller, weaker and poorer kingdom with infinitesimal local importance. None, actually, whatsoever. This tiny little thing throughout most of its history resided on the mountain area around Jerusalem, and not much more. But at its height it reached Lachish in the west (, the Dead Sea in the east, and Beersheba in the south. After the destruction of Israel it wished to spread north, to its sister kingdom's territories, and in certain periods (especially the Greek and Roman) it did. Judea sometimes also included the important city of Hebron.

There are two things that should be taken from my descriptions of the borders of the two kingdoms - first, that these are, in fact, kingdoms, and that the modern concept of borders should absolutely not be applied to them, as they constantly change and move and shift, both by inner and outer machinations. To an Israelite, the eastern Jordan is a 100% a part of their homeland. But the only people who would dare suggest such a thing today are not exactly on the normal side of the political scale, not even on the right wing of it. Which is probably a good thing...

The second thing that should be taken is the vary glaring absence of the entire southern (HaNegev) and south-western areas of modern Israel. That's because those weren't ours. In the south-west lived a people called Plishtim (or as they are known in English, Philistines. It's a little complicated calling them a people, as some scholars are veering off of that in recent years, but we'll leave it at that for this time). These were several city-states that rose and fell in different periods, and to the most part disappeared as an entity into the broad Canaanite identity in later periods. The main cities they controlled were Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gath, Ekron and Gezer (depending on the period). In the south was the Kingdom of Edom, who also spread east into modern Jordan.

This Edomite kingdom in particular is important in relation to that one city I mentioned earlier - Hebron. Like I said, this city was sometimes in Judahite control, and sometimes it wasn't. Sometimes they saw themselves as Judeans, and sometimes they didn't. Why am I mentioning this? Well, because Hebron happens to be the "birth place" of a particular mythical character - Abraham. By "birth place" I mean the place the myth was created. Abraham is an autochthonous character of this city, which specific connections to a particular temple in Elonei Mamre, that predates all of these kingdoms by a lot. This character was adopted by the Judahites as an ancestor when they ruled the city, but when other people ruled it, they adopted the traditions as well. This is just one example (and a particularly important one that affected the course of world history and the development of certain religions) of the flexibility and dynamism of kingdoms, borders and even ethnic identities.

But of coarse, a certain rebellion came and went, and the second temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Any remnants of Jewish independence and autonomy in Canaan were erased, and most of the Jewish people were exiled. Then the second rebellion came, and most of the few that remained were exiled or killed as well. And then came the name change... I won't go into where the name Palestina came and why, because it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the fact that we were no longer the rulers (even if under the authority of bigger rulers) of any territory of this land. That's when other people came in. Some from other areas in Canaan, other from outside it.

The Palestinians themselves are probably, to some extent, descendants of both the Philistines, the Edomites, other Canaanites and Beduin, and yes other outside Arabs and other-other peoples who have moved through this land or even conquered it. They are probably also related to us as well. Like I said, ethnic identity and nationality were very very very flexible back then. Heck, we converted half of the northern territories of Israel (the former territories of the Kingdom of Israel, that were populated by exiles that were brought by the Assyrians, Babylonians and Persians from other areas) during the reign of the Hashmonaim (Greek period).

So the thing is that when we say "Israel", what we mean is the Land of Israel, but that doesn't actually corresponds to our actual ancestral homeland, not entirely. It was also the home of other people, who are themselves the ancestors of the Palestinians. If you look at it like that, what you see is that actually, in an ancient sense (ignoring all modern context), we are colonizing some of their territories, like Ashkelon and Ashdod, and they are colonizing some of out territories, like Jericho, Shechem, and yes - Jerusalem.

And this is the thing that I absolutely agree with you on, and I really wish there was less hypocrisy about it from the other side. Like, I'm absolutely an atheist, and for all I care they can take it all if it means peace. and honestly I hate this city, but also, like, that's ours. That is indisputably, unquestionably, irrevocably an ancient Jewish city. The City. Unlike other cities, at no point in the entire existence of the entity that can be called Judea was this city in the hands of anyone else but us. Not even after the destruction of the first temple.

This is incredibly simplified and completely one-sided, but I can't help but imagine what if it weren't about Jewish people. Imagine that Italy was made of independent city-states and small kingdoms (like it used to). Imagine that India came and conquered it. Imagine that the Romans (as in the people of the city of Rome) decided to rebel. Imagine that it went horribly wrong. Imagine that most of the Romans were banished, exiled from Italia to roam the world. Imagine that the Indians also destroyed the Vatican, and in its place built a Hindu temple. Imagine that a few centuries later The Germans came. But its okay right? I mean their Europeans! What's the difference between Germans and Italians, right? So the Germans come and they fight the Indians for centuries, and they destroy the Hindu temple and build a new magnificent temple to Odin. Unbelievably beautiful. Many worshipers of Odin from all over the world come to see this temple. Imagine that 1700 years after they were exiled, the Roman finally have an opportunity to come to their homeland. Imagine that they do that, waging war against the Germans and the German-Italian city-states in Italia. Imagine that they win to the most part, and that they ask the Germans if they could come pray on the ground where once stood the holiest of their temples, the actual goddam Vatican. Imagine the Germans going full Horse-Loose-In-A-Hospital and screaming "if you even fucking look at the hospital, I will stomp you to death with my hooves" and calling the Romans "colonizers". Anyway, if a people that weren't Jewish would have returned to their homeland after more than a thousand years, there would have been outcries of Western Leftist circle to destroy the Odin temple... (which I am absolutely against, both in metaphor and in the real world, and will never support because I'm not out of my mind. Also, it really is pretty...).

To sum up - like I said, life is a shit show, and a tragic one at that. The pain of existence is that even when you are right, others are right as well about the same issue in a completely opposite way. Which sucks. But that's what you get for letting the Assyrians do whatever they want...

#anyway blame the assyrians #for starting this mess #also blame us for not being down to wearing togas and chilling in roman theaters #i hope you'll see this #it took me two hours to write this #i always wonder how anons find out if they got an answer #i hope it wasn't too rambly #jewish things #israel #archaeology #ancient history #history #ip conflict

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ravenssunshine · 2 months

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genius article

#ip conflict #israel/palestine

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mitchfynde · 10 days

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I'm begging the pro-Palestine movement to inject even the slightest bit of nuance into their rhetoric. I'm basically pro-Zionist at this point, but even I believe you SHOULD be pro-Palestine to an extent.

Here are some things to consider.

Israel has a right to exist. They didn't steal the land. You can say Britain did, but it doesn't matter. It's their land now and they have a right to live there, just as Canadians have a right to live in Canada despite the history of the indigenous people. Apply this to basically any other nation.

The October 7th attack happened. It was bad. It was an act of terrorism. They killed innocent civilians on purpose. The civilians didn't deserve to die for living in Israel. You condemn the attacks.

Hamas is a valid military target. They are a terrorist organization who are constantly attacking Israel. They're not freedom fighters. They may use the plight of Palestinians as an excuse, but they cannot be taken in good faith. You condemn Hamas.

Israelis are not Nazis. There are far right people in Israel as there are anywhere. Right now Israel's right wing is exaggerated due the attacks they've experienced. People's rhetoric can get extreme when such a thing happens. It's certainly something you should be concerned about, but comparing them to Nazis is not useful at all.

Generally speaking, Israel has a good track record of taking a lot of care to avoid civilian deaths. They have a strong history of calling areas by phone to warn civilians. They will then drop a knock bomb onto the roof to scare people out before dropping the actual bomb. They do not have a policy of killing Palestinian civilians.

The reason why Israel has the reputation they do for killing civilians is threefold. 1) Palestine is densely populated which creates huge complications in war. 2) Individual IDF soldiers or groups sometimes commit attrocities, on purpose or by accident. 3) Hamas has one of the most devious PR strategies the world has ever seen.

Hamas uses human shields. And I'm tempted to say they use them more effectively than anyone has in the history of the world. They operate in or under civilian infrastructure... seemingly exclusively. They make damn sure that, if you want to bomb them, you are taking civilians with them.

Combine that with the fact there's basically no way to identify a member of Hamas from a civilian and Hamas can generate an insane civilian death toll. Why? Because they can sell it to us. The western liberal is horrified by civilian deaths. Especially if the skin color of the victims is darker than the people doing the killing. It's the perfect plot for a terrorist group to pretend they have noble intentions of freedom fighting and whatnot.

So is being pro-Palestine just utterly foolish? Absolutely not. Palestinians are in an utterly horrible position in this world and you'd be absolutely insane not to care about that. They absolutely should have their own nation with their own government. They should have the opportunity to live in peace. They should have the opportunity to live in freedom. It's almost self-evident.

Of course Israel is too expansionist. The settlements are a disgrace. The IDF's reputation is not totally unearned and neither is their government's reputation. There is the stench of far right rot in both their military and their government. Netanyahu is absolutely a religious zealot.

All I'm saying is you can't look at this as a totally one-sided thing. Most of the people posting pro-Palestine stuff are being misleading at best and spreading flat out lies more often than not. This is not a valid strategy to enact change. And, frankly, you deserve better for yourself.

You do not need to lie about Israel to be pro-Palestine.

#fuck israel #pro palestine #free gaza #from the river to the sea palestine will be free #palestine #israel #ip #israel palestine conflict #israel palestine #the tags are just for reach

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haveyouseenthisseries-poll · 4 months

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to be honest sometimes when i vote I've heard of it i question my choice. HAVE i heard of this series? or have i heard of one with a similar title I'm confusing it with? it sounds vaguely familiar but maybe I'm thinking of something completely different?

yeah, i feel this especially for remakes/reboots and spinoffs. sometimes i know of a series but not its reboot, sometimes i only know of the movie it's based on

#it leaves me conflicted because like. i KNOW this ip but not this specific series #ask #catboyrichardkarinsky

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vergess · 6 months

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I promise you, I promise you, you do not need to defend Hamas.

You especially do not need to defend Hamas by covering up the assassination of PM Rabin in the 90s and referring to him as ~an ex-soldier of the Israeli empire~ not "guy that Netanyahu really openly had assassinated for entering peace negotiations"

Like. Holy shit. I know y'all know fuck all about the region or its history but GODDAMN.

#Automatic OP tag #I'm SO TIRED #And you know what's the worst fucking part is that I literally agree with these people like 80% of the way #I have all kinds of complex opinions about the perceived and enforced whiteness complete with supremacy #That dominates the conservative party in Israel #BUT NO I'M NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THAT #BECAUSE YOU PEOPLE HAVE TO BE WEIRD ABOUT IT #Israel /#Palestine /#IP Conflict /

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tsuyoshikentsu · 1 month

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palestinian casualty statistics are made up.

#israel #i/p #ip #i/p war #i/p conflict #palestine #hamas #israel/palestine #israel/hamas war

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frankfontainecalloutpost · 2 months

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Lol it feels like anorexia is taking my ability to do bouldering and I have no one to talk to about it irl and if i talk to anyone about it they act as if i'm the worst person alive and i'm lonely

#this and the ip conflict has left me completely otheree #othered #i feel so detached from everybody because of malnutrition #im in a fog constantly #im lonely #this sucks

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chaosisorderao3 · 2 months

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Who does it help to call what's happening in Gaza right now a genocide? Because it certainly doesn't help Gazans and Palestinians. The fact of the matter is it currently isn't a genocide. It absolutely is a humanitarian crisis; all wars are. When you're busy constantly calling it a genocide, it doesn't work to bring attention to any risk factors that it could become a genocide later because oh it was already a genocide to begin with.

Far more effective to say hey this is a humanitarian crisis and it's really concerning that so many people have been forced into Rafah which is now being attacked, the lack of access to safe zones and medicine and food and clean water and electricity could possibly turn this into a genocide soon. That helps way more because then you can actually hear the alarm bells.

And hey, then maybe people might see more urgency to examine why there's this lack of access to critical resources. Maybe then more people will realise that Hamas has been stealing all aid resources and depriving Gazans of what they so desperately need.

But if you actually want to help Palestinians and Gazans, think about what you're saying because right now all that's achieved by calling this a genocide already is A) distracting from the warning signs and B) boosting your own damn egos.

#red talks #ip conflict #I/P #israel #palestine #hamas #gaza #free palestine from hamas #free gaza from hamas #free palestine #pro peace #jumblr #Jewish

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it-will-devour · 2 months

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if you see me deleting posts it’s cause I’ve been informed or found out their information is incorrect / is being shared maliciously. I want to spread useful stuff without perpetuating any harmful biases, but that’s surprisingly difficult on this hellsite because apparently a much larger amount of people on here than I thought are bloodthirsty bigots.

I have a brain disease that impacts my processing speed and my optic nerves are hyper mobile so I skip sentences when reading, if you see anything in a post I’ve shared that could indicate op is being evil, ESPECIALLY if it’s subtle please let me know and I’ll delete it. The last thing I want is for my blog to make anyone feel unsafe because I was at school and skimmed a post and shared it without checking ops blog or reading every sentence more than once.

I’m aware my medical conditions do not give me a pass to be careless, they are just recent news to me so I hadn’t adjusted to the reality that I need to be careful reading when I shared the posts mentioned.

And Rowan tysm for doing this without me asking. I’m sorry you had/have to so much, but it’s appreciated very much and taught me something important.

#molars.txt #aware that this is also a me problem and I’m now checking peoples blogs a lot more often but figured I’d make a pda #psa*#if my ip posting goes down from here it’s bc I’m being more careful not bc I don’t care #i have a hard time understanding other peoples perspectives it’s a learned skill for me #so at first I wasn’t conscious of the fact that this entire conflict would be weaponized by evil people as justification for their views #ok. depressing post over.

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fortunatelychaoticphantom · 2 years

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I mean. Now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm largely agreeing with you, and mostly peeved at the rampant hypocricy and anti-semitism on the left - but whilst Palestinians are just as mixed as any fertile crescent people, and we were never alone in EY, and the modern state of israel includes lands outside of what would have been the historic kingdoms - and it is true that all land has multiple groups with indigenity claims on it - but the separate identity as Palestinian is a modern invention. They were arabs and considered themselves arabs until that was no longer politically expedient, and the arabs are not indigenous to EY, modern or historical.

(obviously one can make a side argument here about assimilation and just because YOU consider yourself part of a majority group doesn't mean the majority group agrees and the absolutely appaling treatment of displaced populations from mandatory palestine by lebanon and syria and the implications that has re. my argument that palestinians considered themselves arabs vis-a-vis the pan-arabic movement and the arab league and whether the rest of the arab world considered them arabs, et cetera, everything is more complicated than it seems)

Previous related posts: one, two.

There are two parts to this question - the first is the part about Arabs being non-indigenous to EY, and the other is the part about the modernity of the Palestinian identity.

Regarding the first one, I didn't mention it in the last answer because I didn't think that it mattered, but now it is - the very simple fact is that we are all Arabs. Kind of. West Asia (and North Africa) is a region that can just be largely defined as "Arab". That means that everything west of Iran and south of Turkey (both of which are not Arab - Iran is Hindu-Arian and the Turks came from around the area western China if I'm not mistaken), fall under the broad spectrum of "Arabness", and yes that includes Jewish people, as we are first and foremost a Levantine people (regardless of the effects of the exiles). The word has specific connotations in the modern world, but underneath it all it just means that you are Western-Asiatic/North African (there are other areas but these are the main ones), and we all fall under this category.

The Edomites were Arabs, or a type of Arabs, and that is how they are usually referred to in academia. Canaanite people as a whole were a type of Arabs, and that includes us. We didn't magically appear here out of nowhere. We grew from the local Canaanite population as well as probably other Nomadic people from the southern area of EZ and from the areas east of the Jordan - that's all Arabs. Even specific ethic identities today, like the Druze and the Beduins, despite their uniqueness and differentiation from other parts of the Arab world, are still fundamentally Arab. And we are no different that any of them. Of course I'm not going to say that Saudi Arabians or Iraqis are indigenous to either the Levant or to EZ, even though they are Arab. But "Arab" is a huge word, far more similar to "East Asian" or "Slavic" than it is to "Jewish" or "Danish". It incorporates many peoples with many similarities, but also with many differences as well.

We are looking at thousands of years of ethnic memory, and new words are invented to talk about things all the time throughout history. And while the word "Arab" might not have existed back then, the basic meaning of it is still clear to us. And if you look at the basic facts - geographical regions, language families, central traditions and costumes - you can see how we all fall under this broad definition of "Arabness", which is far bigger than simply being indigenous to EZ or not.

Regarding the second one, this is actually a very important question, precisely because a lot of people on the right use it like a "gotcha" argument (which is also used by anti-Israelis, I'll touch that later). But, to me, the most basic response to the "accusation" that Palestinians as a people didn't exists before 48' is - so?

It always makes me laugh when I hear this argument, like that is literally how peoples are created. We have this sort of distorted notion of both history and our present existence, where we think that things are because they always were, but that's not how anything works. Everything started somewhere and at some point. At some point "me" becomes different than "them", my village is not the same as someone else's village, my city, my kingdom, my people. Sure, we are talking about long processes of cultural change and interaction, but more often than not, the actual point where a local identity becomes an ethnic identity, a national identity, is after a great victory or a great defeat.

A lot of scholars ask the question - would a peasant from Burgundy have called themselves "French" before the French Revolution? And the answer to that is, well, that is very complicated, but probably not. A huge portion of our identity as a Jewish people was formed specifically because of the Destruction of the Kingdom of Israel, and then twice as much by the destruction of the first temple and the experience of the first exile (by the elites of course). The same is applicable for many peoples around the world, who have since those events formed into modern national countries.

The problem is that we are so used for those seminal events to have already happen, preferably many years ago in a galaxy far far away, that it is hard for us to comprehend one that is happening right in front of our eyes.

The simple fact, that both sides seems to not understand, is that it means nothing if there was no Palestinian national-ethnic identity before 48', because there is one now. And this identity was formed in a specific geographical location in specific political-cultural conditions, and what we need to do is deal with it, because it is just as valid an experience as any other throughout history, and the many that will happen in the future (I cannot emphasize this enough - WE ARE NOT STATIC. Everything that exists today could, might, will change in the future, and that includes the very existence of entire countries and peoples, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, that's just how human life works).

What bothers me is both the right's obsession with this useless fact, AND the Palestinian's new obsession with proving that their identity is actually rooted in antiquity, which is just. NO. Just STOP. It is hard to be more left wing than me, you would just fall of the scale completely, but if you come into MY house (history and archaeology) and lie to MY face (that fucking antisemitic infograph from a year ago), I will tear you to fucking shreds. Any and all arguments I have seen thus far about this are unbelievably intentionally antisemitic and I just can't.

And here also comes in this obsession with the fact the Israel was founded in 48', cause that makes it "new" and therefore somehow "fake", which is just?!?!?!? what?!?! that's how countries work?!??! particularly those that have gained their independence from the UK or any other empire???? Even if Palestine would have been officially founded as a modern country it would still have happened around the same time?!?!?!?!? would that have made it fake?!?!?!?! that's the MODERN part of MODERN countries!?!?!? they didn't exist before like that????? all of these borders around the world are fucking new?!?!? and everyone is still fighting over them?!?!?! It's like that one Lebanese actress what's-her-name who said last year that she has wine that's older than Israel, like?!?!!? girl?!?!???! do I have some news for you about Lebanon?!?!!?

Can you tell I'm pissed?

Anyway, yeah. We keep trying to make sense of the human experience, put it in little definable boxes and pack them up in neat little block towers. But the truth is that we can't, we are just too complicated and annoying for that. There will never be a clear cut answer for anything. But hopefully, this was helpful enough.

(BTW - just in case if it wasn't clear - every single things that we say when discussing history is always always always prefaced with a "probably" and "as far as we know at the moment". And for everything I say, there will be those who'll disagree on some or all points. Most of them are wrong. No, I'm kidding. Kind of. Depending on the subject...)

#always a fun subject to discuss online #like walking into a mirror store with a sledgehammer and hoping for the best #to be honest to far it was okay but like i'm terrified that less nice people would find these #israel #jewish things #archaeology #history #ancient history #ip conflict

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