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#in other news I’m watching a Jack manifold stream for the first time
simplydm · 3 years
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Tommy and Jack Manifold both Speak Like This but in different fonts
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streaming-yn · 3 years
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(☁️)
HIIII it's 3 am and i'm trying to sleep but brain went brr with ideas n shit and oh well- thing is ; i was wondering if i could make my first request? (smth simple if u want to, no need to be very long or anything + pls don't rush nd take ur time AND don't feel pressured to actually do my request :] ! ) maybe smth ab faceless art streamer! y/n [they/them]?? (if u could add that the reader is like an indie game dev or works for smth like that u'd be sosososososo cool omg) with maybe quackity, tommy, dream, ranboo, niki and/or jack?? idk brain did the storming and its all messy hsdnshhfjsjz (btw! i know it's a lot of CCs so feel free to remove some or do the ones ur only comfy with !!! take care nd stay safe !!! luv ya <3 (/p))
AS SOMEONE WHO LIKES TO GAME DESIGN, CHARACTER, AND PLOT DESIGN YOU BET I CAN MAKE THE READER AND INDIE GAME DEV (and aaaa ty for adding jack!!! I think he's really neat and not enough people acknowledge him :))!!)
Multiple x indie game dev!artist!y/n
pairings: quackity, tommy, dream, ranboo, niki, jack manifold (separate) x indie game dev!artist!y/n
pronouns: they/them
other information on the reader:
. faceless
. knows how to code
. artist
. streams them drawing video game characters
. minor
. makes indie / horror games
form: headcanons
genre: platonic, fluff(??)
warnings: horror games / horror mods, ranboo enderwalk lore in his section
abbreviations: y/n -> your name
quackity
okay let's get the obvious out of the way; definitely going to be the type of person that's like "I'm going to play this game first after you're finished" yk? playfully ofc, n playfully fight with anyone who says the same thing (*cough* Wilbur, tommy, dream *cough*)
he probably wouldn't be on your art streams often – he doesn't really enjoy watching people draw, but he would want to see the finished pics
he would happily be on voice chat with you while you're drawing though!! :D
would be proud to answer any questions you have about character / scene / etc designs!!
"quackity!! so for this character – check your dms for a current picture – would red or purple antenna be better? also, two or four antenna?"
"*gasp* you're asking me?? 🥺" /j
"y'know what, nevermind, chat wh-"
"NO WAIT WAIT"
"so what do you think?"
also, if you do end up sending him the finished pics of the art he will hype you tf up !!!!
would try to get you make joke games – not like actually, it's just an ongoing bit between you two!
if you make a game for him – or give him a sneak peek of a game before anyone else he's going to freak out!! and he won't really know what to say bc putting feelings into words is hard
if y'all ever meet up and you're fine w hugs he's gonna give you a huge hug, hoping that makes up for the lack of words to describe how just,, proud of you he is bc he really really is!!
you're not even in your 20s yet and you can make video games, or help with them?? not to mention how creative you are with the characters and story line??? he's amazed by you
might actually cry /pos if you base a character off of him
like let's say a part of a puzzle is to get a rubber duck and place it into a pond to get the next hint or thing you need – only when he plays it on stream, he doesn't know anything about the game, so you're watching and waiting for him to get there
when he does get there – he finds out the duck has a beanie and has a white ring appear around it that flashes to life before fading out after picking it up, signifying it was the right thing to get
at first he doesn't really notice the ring, "oh! that animation is different than normal" he notes, but mainly focuses on the beanie, comparing it to himself before he glances at chat to see them freaking out over the planet duck reference
then he's just talking about it, shocked of course but flattered, and then you type in chat "you helped me a ton with things I couldn't decide during this game, I couldn't not add you! :)" everyone's just :(((( !!! /pos
overall supportive n proud, maybe a bit loud about games in progress, but just a really nice guy in general :)
tommy
he is ABSOLUTELY loud about your games in progress!! if you don't want something said you have to tell that to him before telling him or else he's going to brag about how cool it is the next time he streams
"chat!! chat, y/n is making this new game and they told me that one of the outfits you can collect for the player is going to be based off me!- right!! that sounds pog!!"
if he ever accidentally let's anything slip on stream that he was supposed to say, everyone who's a fan of you is just like "wow! suddenly! I cannot hear anymore!", sometimes they're like that even if it was okay to say
the just like being surprised :)
as for art streams, he'll try his best to tune in but obviously won't be there all the time! he's usually very active in chat too! likes being on call with you while you do art streams if you let him!
he once convinced you to make a texture pack and a shader (meant for both to be active at the same time), the fans loved it and a lot of them use it more often than the original!!
tommy however, not to much, proud of you bc that must've been a ton of work!! but at some time it slipped his mind that you make indie and horror games; I think we all know he doesn't do well with horror games
so you liking horror and such made the textures look more ominous and just make it look like and area you don't want to be in, and the spook goes up even more with the shader!! it's darker than usual, there's unusual fog, the portals look too dangerous now, so on and so forth yk
so,, tommy didn't use the texture pack for long;;
if you ever raid him after you're done streaming and he has a question, he's literally just gonna ask you on stream
"y/n raid? oh! are they still here?" when you confirm you're in chat, he continues "great! okay I had a question about your new game that's going to be available soon and how to download it-"
fans love how casual you guys are about game information, like you had to teach him how to export a game character he made on the website you usually make yours on (it was for a fun stream) and it was just a simple back and forth but everyone's like omg :((( omg them :((
also if you're the type of person to go insane over tiny details in other games, he will absolutely tease you for it
like you can just be going on and on about how this game had a sentence at the start that had a backhanded meaning by the end and he's just gonna call you a nerd (genuinely thinks is cool how much of the small things you notice in games though)
dream
COMPLAINING ABOUT CODING AND HOW HARD IT IS 🤝🤝
and if you took other coding classes hoping that I'd help with video game coding he'd just listen to you talk about it
"I actually took robotics for a while before because the school didn't have any video game coding classes and I was hoping it'd help either way" "oh?" "it,, it didn't help, it's so hard to code robots and considering how fast I caught onto video game code you think it'd be easier to understand the robot code" "yeah, that sounds reasonable" "NOPE,, WHY R THEY SO DIFFERENT I ALMOST FAILED" "D:"
fanartists like those moments, if one of those talks happen expect a bit of fanart of just dream and you chilling while you talk and he listens, the art always gives off comfy vibes n it's just cute :)
offering him to play a semi-rough draft of the demo so that he could see if it's good or what you needed to do to make it more enticing for the player
power duo fr fr o/
people like comparing y'all to hackers sometimes bc y'all know how to code???
you play into the bit with the fans though and honestly it's so fun !!!
fans: omg,, hackers (affectionate),,,
you next time you stream: hacker voice; I'm in
AND THEY GOT SHOCKED??? LIKE THEY FORGOT YOU CAN SEE THE STUFF THEY POST????
wouldn't be able to watch your art streams for long because he would get side tracked, the streams are just too under stimulating for his brain to focus on, but he'd hang around as long as he could though :)
would be glad to be on call with you while you're doing an art stream – though if he has is game sounds on you may occasionally have to repeat a question that was aimed at him
you're also in his streams when you can :)
also, you like sending donations to communicate rather than chat
one stream dream turned off his donos because you wouldn't stop giving him money 💀
being friends with such a popular creator and being a game creator yourself has it's downs as well
nothing thats too hard to deal with – the most common one is actually kinda funny – some people will slide in your dms acting like they're dream and just got locked out of his account, trying to get you to make them a game
like ??? do they think that dream would mssg you over Twitter or insta?? he has your phone number bro ,😭
also!!! when dream plays through new games you made he complements the small things and complements how hard something must've been to code :)
and I'm ngl, he kinda sucks with every game he plays at first but he's a quick learner so dw :)
would be glad to help if you're having a difficult time choosing between things too! except he'll answer right away without any teasing
"dreammm" "y/nnnn" "for this area should I do like shattered stone walls or mossy stone walls like with vines n stuff?" "depends on the vibe you want, shattered stone would give it a dangerous and uneasy undertone and mossy stone would be more of ominous, if that makes sense?" "oh! okay, thank youuu!!"
ofc if you didn't have a specific vibe or couldn't choose which was better he would just give a straight up answer so you didn't stress out trying to choose one \o/
would absolutely like being a guest in a drawing stream, he isn't the best at art or character design but it's fun to see him try
maybe you both plus some friends do a "drawing Minecraft mobs from memory" stream? ,, with that the thing is; his would mostly be relatively accurate if you could understand wtf he was drawing 😭
dream may or may or have some of your art as his phone homescreen, he loves your style so much :(( /pos
ranboo
first off; he's incredibly impressed!! like!!! you made this game?? this playable game, completely from scratch??? how??
also you may or may not have made a small Minecraft mod for him to tryout on stream,, little gift from you to both chat n ranboo 🤲
its literally all based off his lore,, if you get close to obsidian and crying obsidian fallen down from Undertale starts playing, if you splash water on yourself 1) you get hurt 2) your screen blacks out and when it comes back, your in a different place than before, some things art taken, maybe a few extra things are added
and there's a 50% chance that when you go into your "enderwalk" state (the blackout) you blow something up, so there may or may not be an explosion somewhere nearby, you also have a 20% chance of building something small in you enderwalk state :)
he found it so incredibly cool!!! chat was crying while complementing you while ranboo thanked you and complemented you over n over again
he won't shut up about how cool the mod is for several weeks, maybe even a few months, it's just so cool!!
will absolutely use it as a comeback if you let him; "oh? you got first place? well y/n made me a really really cool mod, so who's the actual winner here?"
will absolutely play every single game you come out with – it doesn't matter if it's his style or not – and he thoroughly enjoys all of the games as well
as for art streams, he will absolutely try to tune in every time he can!! active in chat and donos!!
doesn't really like being in art streams – like in call is fine but actually drawing? not really, he just doesn't love drawing in front of a ton of people
but will join an art stream if you ask
will listen to you rant about whatever, even if he doesn't understand it! like will listen to you go on and on about how well a game set up the atmosphere or maybe talking about how difficult coding is, and he'll converse back with you but won't really understand yk?
"ranboo I just played a really cool game do you wanna hear about it?" "yeah yeah- of course!!" "ok so like, the atmosphere was so well put together- like it was a horror game and I didn't even see the monster but the vibe was so well put together that it was still unnerving!!" "that's awesome! how did the atmosphere get set up the best and when you saw the monster, was it scarier?"
yk what I mean? like engages in convo so you don't feel bad about talking so much, plus shows his interest without the constant "hm?" "cool" etc a lot of people do and even though he does talk more than the acknowledgment sounds many people make he also manages to almost never sidetrack you and when he does it's on accident :)
if your way of learning is teaching then he'll gladly be the person you teach it to if you want! most likely won't use the information therefore his brain won't retain it but that's not on you, and the whole reason is so you can learn, not him, so! ^^
will make sure to take care of yourself, and he has a through way of telling if you have or not bc he's known you for long enough to know that even if you try to hide it a little bit of your tired voice shows so he knows if you've been sleeping like you should
also friends with you on discord, where you have your Spotify attached,, you like listening to music while you work on things that aren't sound related and if it's active later than it should be he's going to confront you
overall wholesome mixed in with a little pain bc both of you are like "ah yes, lore <3" and like to see fans cry /lh
niki
I feel like this is expected but if you need to get extra motivation she would probably be your go-to
she hypes you up but like, in a sweet and quiet kinda way, where as everyone else here would probably be relatively loud ;;
honored to be on an art stream if you invite her :')
and would absolutely watch your art streams when she can :D hypes you up in chat
also compliments, tons of compliments!
might call you a prodigy? bc you're so young but can already make games?? and make income off of them?? and do really good art??? and so much more??? like tell me that's not prodigy energy,
if you make a video game character based off her she might cry,, like in a positive way obviously but like at the same time :(( no don't cry!!
I say might bc it's dependant on how she feels that day yk? like she might just have the almost-cry wobble to her voice or she might actually, if that makes sense?
she genuinely loves your art style!! even if it's pointy and kinda creepy she really likes it!!
yk the "awww (name) :(" /pos she does sometimes? 100% does that with you
there are a few compilations of just "aww y/nnn" on YouTube and all the comments on those videos are just crying over y'all /pos
would be happy to help if you're stuck between some options in a game, but would feel kinda bad bc it's your game, you're supposed to be the one choosing the stuff
assure her that it's okay n stuff n she'll be ok tho !
I can't decide if she would play your games or not
bc on one hand she's a huge supporter of you and your work and would like to experience it first hand
but on the other hand she isn't the best with scry games,,
so maybe she'd do both? maybe she'd react on stream to a playthrough, maybe your playthrough? or maybe she would only play some of your games? I haven't decided so up to you I suppose!
jack manifold
genuinely amazed by your talent and will make it quite clear!!
can and will go on tangents about you on stream if someone brings it up
everyone is so :(( <333 /pos bc of it
will play the games you've made as soon as he can
if there are different games that line up in a story he'll make sure to play them in order :)
people also sometimes compare you two to hackers bc you code a ton and he kinda looks like a hacker
difference here is that both of you play into the bit, it's tons of fun!!
listen, I know he doesn't draw much but I am a firm believer that he will doodle his favorite character(s) from your games after he's done playing them
like after he plays a game of yours then expect a small doodle in your texts :)
you compiled a bunch of these doodles into one picture and made it you phone background and he only found out after y'all met irl and it caught the corner of his eye and he registered "oh hey wait that looks familiar"
he found out while recording the vlog n when editing, the editor was like "hey let's leave this in, it'd be funny if the fans knew right?" ,, the fans were crying for two weeks,, /pos
and speaking of drawings; he would like to be on a drawing stream with you, thinks it's be tons of fun!! :D
and he's usually free to call while your streaming and doesn't mind so if you wanna talk to him while drawing just call :)
and he will watch the streams he can make it to!! he may leave a bit early but he stays for the majority of it
if you make a character based off of him he's going to constantly thank you and brag about how cool you are anywhere he can
"hello manifolders, if you haven't done it already go download (game name)! I'm there!" with a ss of his character from the game and he'll reply to the tweet on his alt to talk more about the game and how much he really liked it :)
another that'll help you were you need it! he'll make it into a joke before anything else, but he'll get to the point
taglist (sorry i forgot to do it on the past two): @cvsmixplant // @l0ver0fj0y // @youngstarfishdinosaur
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tarosin · 3 years
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the great adventures of y/n tommy jack and tubbo
requested: yes/no
an: part 4 of the great adventures series
pairing: platonic y/n/tommy/jack/tubbo
warning: cursing
It was the afternoon before your new adventure with your friends. you had no idea what to expect, however everyone else knew even ranboo, and he wasn’t even joining you all. you would be lying if you said you weren’t nervous, especially after hearing some of tommys plans for future uploads. tubbo had been trying to drop hints about what was going to happen. You honestly couldn’t tell if he was excited or nervous, either way you could tell it was going to be a once in a lifetime opportunity and boy were you excited. the sound of knocking pulled you from your thoughts.
“hi y/n! sorry for the unexpected visit, i tried to call you but it wouldn’t go through.”
“oh god sorry, tubbo, my phones on charge upstairs, ive just finished babysitting my friends twitch chat.”
“that’s okay, tommy wanted me to see if you want to stay the night as i can take you with me now. he said something about it saving time tomorrow as jack won’t have to go as far and we can get there earlier, i honestly just think he’s slightly nervous and wants to spend time with someone.”
“i’ve not prepared a bag or anything as i was just planning on grabbing everything i needed in the morning, but i’m down to go with you. i’ll pack a bag real quick, make yourself feel at home. you can stay down here or come upstairs with me.”
tubbo followed you upstairs, and helped you pick which outfits would be the best to wear for the trip. around 10 minutes later you finished packing your bag and turned around to see a very pale tubbo, dropping your bag to the floor you pulled a chair up to your bed sitting opposite him.
“you feeling okay tubs?”
“just nerves, I'll be alright, are you ready to go?”
“ready if you are!”
the journey to tommys was relatively quick, you spent it talking about group plans for when ranboo comes to the uk.
tubbo: almost here!
tommy: yes! want to stream for a bit later, just something small could do laugh and the stream ends. i’ll go talk to my mum now!
•••
tubbo: please open the door
tommy: on it
the pair of you stood at the door waiting for tommy to unlock it
“TUBBO! Y/N I'M GLAD YOU COULD BOTH MAKE IT!”
not too long later, you and tubbo had put everything away and sat with tommy planning out a small stream.
“so i was talking with my parents and we can do an outside stream, and set fire to marshmallows!”
“as much as i love fire tommy i don’t think your parents will appreciate arson in the garden.”
“it’ll be fine now grab a jacket, we need to go walk to the shop.”
the three of you set off determined to get to the shop and back before it got dark, tommy and tubbo walked on either side of you as they want you to feel safe. thankfully the shop was only around the corner so you were all only out for about 20 minutes maximum, you probably could have made it back earlier but you stopped every time you saw a pretty rock.
“y/n come on we still need to stream!”
“did you tweet that you were streaming?”
“no he didn’t.”
“then come and look at this pretty rock!”
tommy and tubbo couldn’t help but laugh at how many rocks you managed to pick up.
•••
“guys i think i’d rather just spend time with you all rather than stream.”
“that’s fine, tommy!!”
the three of you sat around the fire updating one another about plans and opportunitie, coming. the conversation swiftly came to an end when tommy had set fire to a stick claiming it was to make the fire grow. you laughed as you heard his mum yelling at him to stop trying to set you and tubbo on fire.
“sorry about that everyone, but look the fire is big again.”
it got colder as the sun went down, so the three of you sat with a blanket draped over you all. his mum offered to take photos for you and you happily accepted, the pictures looked amazing and you posted it to instagram with the caption ‘i am cold and no one is telling me what’s happening tomorrow.’
it was around 11pm when the three of you agreed it was time to go back inside and sleep.
•••
you and tubbo stayed downstairs and tommy stayed in his room. the sound of tubbos alarm woke the pair of you up.
“turn that fucking thing off!”
“this is the fourth time it’s gone off and you’re still not up?”
“that’s because i’m tired.”
“please get ready jack will be here soon enough.”
realisation finally hit today was the day you were finally about to find out what this once in a lifetime opportunity was. tubbo advised you to wear sensible clothing and not wear the zodiac necklace you always wore, so you decided to wear the hoodie ranboo sent you a week ago and leggings.
“y/n you might wanna tie your hair up.”
“tubbo are you sure you’re feeling okay? you genuinely look ill."
“i’m fine.”
jack: right i’m outside so whenever you’re ready
lani: we’re making our own way later on as the hotel we stayed at is closer
y/n: will someone tell me what we’re doing
ranboo: no
y/n: you’re not even joining us how did you get in the gc
ranboo: magic
y/n: fuck off give me a clue
ranboo: i’ve said it since you dyed your hair neon f/c you’d be able to see from way up in the sky
y/n: what the actual hell is that supposed to mean
•••
soon enough you met up with everyone else and lani started recording.
“we’re skydiving, you ready tubbo?”
“WERE DOING WHAT? HOLY SHIT!”
you honestly couldn’t wait to do this. it was something you had wanted to do for a while, tubbo on the other hand clearly didn’t agree, which was evident through his whining.
you stood with tommy laughing as tubbo sat alone questioning why he agreed to this.
“look at him.”
“he’s is not happy.”
you sat next to jack and tubbo watching the video demonstrating what you will all be doing soon. you let out a nervous laugh, as although you were excited, you couldn’t help but be a bit nervous.
“you could fall into the engine and get chopped up.”
“tommy stop scaring tubbo!”
“what if the parachute doesn’t work?”
“free fall to your death.”
“y/n you’re not helping!”
you stood recording tubbo laying on the floor once again whining.
“tubbo there are so many people behind you!”
“i’m sure the parachute won’t fail tubbo, but if it does it was lovely knowing you!”
“uuuuuuugh!”
“i fully agree bo.”
soon enough you tommy and jack joined tubbo on the floor.
“look at the clouds.”
“we���re going to be in them soon.”
“hell yeah!”
“ughhhh!”
you tried not to laugh trying to calm tubbo down a bit before you all jumped out a plane, which worked until you left him alone with tommy whilst you spoke to jack for a while.
“to be fair that looks quite fun.”
“and dangerous!”
“STOP!”
“well sounds like tubbos thrilled to be here.”
the four of you sat on a bench talking about what’s going to happen, and laughing at tubbos nerves trying to make light of the situation.
“look it’ll be fun, tubbo, provided we don’t die there’s a chance we’ll be in more vlogs.. okay so ignore the black cloud of smoke!”
“that’s not a good omen.”
“shut up!”
you wrapped an arm around tubbo trying to make him feel comfortable and reassure him it’ll be fine, only to be interrupted by jack and tommy bickering about eating before jumping from the plane.
•••
the four of you went to the briefing, at this point you were struggling to contain your excitement, and couldn’t help but laugh out of pure joy.
“no, they are listening, they're just excited.”
after doing training for the jump, you stood with tommy whilst someone questioned him about how he got 9 million subs.
“I just went around being incredibly cool.. doing minecraft.”
you and jack burst out laughing whilst tommy went on to make jokes about how much money he was earning.
•••
it was now almost time to jump out a plane. it was around now nerves were kicking in, so you all went around messing about till you were told it’s time to make your way to get ready.
“let’s go gamers!”
•••
“are you a skydiver enjoyer?”
“i am.”
“well that’s always good... please, don’t let me die!”
“y/n are you scared?”
“no, my ranboo merch will protect me, but if i die can we blame tommy for coming up with this?”
“ranboos not going to believe that you’re wearing the jumper he sent you to jump out a plane.”
a few minutes later you over heard a worker say they’re nervous causing you to tilt your head and blink again, trying to process what was said.
“heh???”
it was now time for the four of you to put the equipment on, so you were ready to jump. jack started talking a lot more than usual at a quicker pace due to the fact he was getting nervous. tommy pointed it out and jack trying to argue he wasn’t made you laugh.
“y/n keeps making a lot of jokes about my parachute being shit.”
“sorry manifold should be fine...more than likely...hopefully. only time will tell really.”
“how you doing buddy?”
“i’m feeling okay. i feel my insides doing inside bits.”
“wonderful!”
you were now all waiting to go as a worker jokes about forgetting something.
“y/n you’re going with him!”
“okay, but why?”
“well you said your ranboo merch will protect you..”
someone went by going rather fast causing you to stare in awe.
“we don’t go that fast, do we?”
“no not unless something goes terribly wrong.”
you all stood there laughing.
“stoppppp!”
“y/n, i’m now thinking you should go with them instead!”
“are you trying to kill me off jack?”
•••
you all set off towards the plane, a mixture of excitement and nerves began kicking in.
“tubbos on a lead.”
“oh i’m really nervous jack.”
“look at y/n!”
lani began to record you, who was now way ahead of the others, so you stopped and waved at lani.
“BYE LANI! HOPEFULLY ILL SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE!”
the others caught up and everyone had their equipment checked again.
“oh dear.. should be fine.”
“i’m alright, don’t worry my ranboo merch will protect us!” you got on first and that when you realised they set you up, so you jumped last as you were more confident and tubbo was jumping first so he could get it out the way.
you all sat on the plane and waved at the camera.
“hi there!”
“hello!”
“hi!”
“please don’t let us die!”
“we’re really jumping out a plane with a dream stan.”
“this is the highest we’ve ever been.”
“gamers in a plane whatever will they do...hopefully not die!”
“Y/N!”
“sorry tubbo!”
you were currently at 2,000 feet and sat looking out the window waiting to reach 14,000 feet. jack turned to you and tommy, “i can’t believe you’re jumping out the plane in philza merch and y/ns jumping out in ranboo merch.”
“if i die at least ill look great doing it.”
12,000 feet later it was now tubbos turn to jump, he looked back at you all.
“YOU GOT THIS TUBBO!!”
you watched as tubbo went.
“GOOD LUCK TOMMY!”
“WHAT DO YOU MEAN GOOD LUCK? Y/N?”
“BYEEEEE!”
you laughed as tommy went.
“see you later jack!”
you gave jack a high-five and watched as he went.
“holy shit they actually did it!”
“are you ready, y/n?”
“hell yeah, let’s do this!”
you laughed as you jumped, you couldn’t believe you actually got to jump out of a plane, you waved at camera.
lani met the others as they landed and began telling them about it.
“wait where’s y/n?”
“there they are!”
“Y/N!”
the others ran up to you as you landed.
“i’m glad you didn’t die!”
“thanks jack!”
•••
“would you all do it again?”
“yeah.”
“no.”
“maybe, i’m not sure.”
“i reckon so.”
not too long later, you were all given certificates to celebrate the fact you had jumped out a plane.
“yay it made nearly dying worth it!”
“you’re so dramatic!”
•••
you thought the day was over and that you were going home, little did you know that wasn’t the case.
“were not done for the day.”
“what?”
“heh?”
“you’re tilting your head again.”
“i know it’s because i’m confused!”
“anyway, what do you mean we’re not done?”
“you know george, he’s arrived!”
“gogy!”
“GOGY!”
“can i have a nap in the car please? i’m so exhausted."
taglist:
@l0ver0fj0y
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safetyrat · 3 years
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Ponk did a banger improvised speech in his stream yesterday (“Dream SMP---> Master Oogway shrine pt.93”), about 15 minutes in.
And I decided, as you do when your fave only feeds you crumbs of roleplay, to write a bit analyzing it (From this point on it’s all /rp)!!
Ponk starts by looking down the L’manburg crater and talking about the cycle of conflicts on the server. As one of the original eight members on the SMP he has been apart of most of it, even if sometimes neutral and from an outside perspective. Different to characters like Technoblade, he doesn’t view countries or governments as the root of said conflicts. Instead, it’s something more fundamental, basic - it’s civilization:
“Civilization is just a brutal cycle of destruction and corruption”
Before L’manburg, before any kind of power structure, there have been conflicts. The disc war, Ponks lemon trees burning - the only thing as constant as conflict on the Dream SMP is people living together in an area, trying to make it work.
“Out of corruption, friendship... you know what is born? New civilizations. And you know what happens in civilizations? Conflict”
This isn’t Ponk criticizing the concept of civilization, however. Ponk doesn’t distance himself from people in the way Techno or maybe Hbomb does, he still has attachments, his trees, pets, people, things he cares (or cared) about. Many of his builds are close to the main area. Ponk is a social character, I don’t see a reason to assume otherwise. He doesn’t criticize civilizations in general, but the ones present on the SMP right now. Because in Ponks eyes, there is only on leader fit to run.
“You see, the only man, who could run a civilization, died fighting for a civilization that he took under his wing”, Ponk says, “and he lays rest over there”
When Ponk zoomed onto Schlatts grave, it caught me off guard at first.
But it makes sense. I don’t see many people talking about it, but there was a time where Ponk was the only person on Schlatts side. He entered a trade deal with Manberg and became a loyal supporter of Schlatt. During that time there was a plotline surrounding the building of the “Manburg Hotel” – that was Ponks job. After Tubbo died during the festival he was the only builder left in Manburg.
Ponk never got to finish the hotel, he had a falling out with Schlatt about how he refused to get treated for his declining health, but the first floor and scaffolding outline stood strong until November 16th. He joined Pogtopia to be their doctor instead, being the last person to switch sides iirc, but having an argument because of Schlatts health? The thing that later caused his death? That sounds like an argument that you would have with somebody you care about. Ponk cared about Schlatt, and still supports him as a ruler after his death. There’s Fund who keeps Schlatts sword as an heirloom, and there’s Jack Manifold who takes him as an idol to “be worse”, but unapologetically supporting Schlatts leadership postmortem is special to Ponk and very fascinating to me.
Bringing back the cycle of conflict, the Pogtopia vs. Manburg war is not exempt from that. Something being part of a cycle implies that it ends.
“Nothing lasts forever”
Ponk has seen proof of that way too many times, being an original member. He watched Lemon City burn, L’manburg fall, the Community House explode, hell he was close to killing the oldest pet on the server!
“I’m sure Dream will get out of prison”, Ponk says, in a tone that is almost offhand. He is sure of it; Dream can’t be stuck in prison forever on a server in which the concept of “forever” doesn’t exist.
This is brought up when Ponk talks about the egg, which he also views as only one of the conflicts in the cycle.
“What happens after the egg? Sure, the egg could be a common enemy, or a common friend, chat. But when its gone, for things never stay the same?”
This makes him acting indifferent towards the egg feel in character. He isn’t immune to the egg in the way Tommy is for sure; he hears its voice, and it influences him to do things like almost killing Fran. But he still takes it less seriously than most, talking very casually with it (“shut yo ass up, you stupid egg”) for example. If it follows the patterns of past conflicts there is very little reason to be afraid of it, it will pass like every other conflict.
Except, Ponk might see one difference when it comes the egg: It is bigger.
“Maybe one day this conflict will get so large, that we’re pushed out of this land and into a new one”
cc!Ponk talked about how, since this bit was improvised, he doesn’t know if any of what he predicts ends up being canon in future. This still seems like a bit of foreshadowing for a long-theorized world reset after the Minecraft 1.17 update.
The update is said to come out in the summer of this year, so if the reason for the reset is really the egg like c!Ponk speculates, it’s going to be a long arc. Which the arc has been so far too to be fair, it has always had a long setup and in general a slow burn vibe. But if the egg actually continues to be an issue for another 4-5 months, the vines are going to grow so much that there won’t be a realistic way to clean them up fast, so moving would make a lot of sense.
Another option is that the SMP ends in 2-3 months instead and the content creator take a break for a month or too before creating the new world.
All of this is just speculation based on a line of Ponks that he said might not mean anything, so there is still a large chance that there will be other conflicts after the egg.
tldr: Ponk can improvise incredibly cool speeches that illustrate his opinions on how civilization causes conflict and how he believes Schlatt was the only fit ruler. It might also foreshadow that the egg will cause a server reset.
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Dream SMP Recap (May 5/2021) -              He’s Back
Now that Wilbur’s returned, it’s about time he got a look around the server to see what he’s missed since he’s been gone. Tommy gives him a tour.
---
VOD LINKS:
Ponk
Foolish
Philza
Tommyinnit
Wilbur Soot
Skeppy
Captain Puffy
Foolish
---
- Ponk continues work on the supreme fridge in the desert
- Sam logs on to call Ponk handsome. Ponk replies that Punz isn’t online.
- Foolish logs on. 
Sam: Don’t ignore my messages ponk
Ponk: Hey, Foolish qt pie
Foolish: Oohhh ponk :)
Sam: He isn’t as cute as me :)
- Sam lands in front of Ponk as he’s watering the concrete. 
Ponk: “Oh, he’s gonna take my other arm!”
- Sam calls Ponk handsome again and hands him steak. Ponk tosses Sam the picture of Coraline’s mother
- Sam tells Ponk that he’s been doing squats and starts twerking to demonstrate
- Ponk shoves Sam off the fridge. When Sam survives, Ponk figures his booty helped save him from the fall, as Sam comments that the weight sent him falling too fast for him to MLG
- Ponk compliments Sam, saying his eyes are glowing like the stars in the ocean
Sam: It’s because I looked at you
Sam: :)
- Ponk and Sam watch the sunrise together. 
- They talk about Coraline’s mother. Ponk says that she is attractive...but not as attractive as Foolish. Sam immediately jumps off the fridge and runs away
Sam: you don’t got me atm. So it does matter.
Sam: I guess it wasn’t meant to be.
- Sam logs off
- Ranboo hires a mercenary Enderman to kill KSI
- Tommy meets with Wilbur at L’manhole
- Wilbur tells Tommy that all his memories are coming back. He remembers that Friend isn’t Tommy’s sheep but his own. 
- Wilbur wants Tommy to show him around to see what he’s missed. He takes Friend along despite Tommy worrying that Friend could die (”Who cares about a sheep, man? It’s just a sheep.”)
- Wilbur’s made some plans, debated with himself what to do now, and tells Tommy that he’s sorry. It may be hard to believe, but Wilbur’s turned over a new leaf! He feels great now and wants to apologize to people.
- Wilbur is in his forties now and asks how old Tommy is -- twenties, thirties? 
- First off, Tommy shows Wilbur Schlatt’s grave. Wilbur asks to see his own grave to see what people said about him. Tommy shows him L’manhole. Wilbur didn’t get a grave, only what he left behind.
- Wilbur sees Karl’s house (which he remembers), the Big Innit Hotel (which he doesn’t) and says he does remember a bit about the prison from Ghostbur’s memories of it.
- Skeppy comes walking past and they speak with him. Wilbur apologizes to Skeppy for not appreciating his trolling. Skeppy kills Friend by accident. He skepped all over Friend. 
- Skeppy runs away and asks Bad if tridents are like swords in terms of damage. Bad asks what he killed and learns that it was a blue sheep. Skeppy puts the trident in an Ender Chest. Bad warns Skeppy that he may have inadvertently started the next war, and Skeppy ends stream
- Wilbur comes across the invisible staircase and Tommy shows him the McPuffy’s. He asks about Karl. Last Wilbur remembered, Karl was an enemy of his, but has he changed? Tommy says he hasn’t seen Karl around much.
- They reach the hotel and Jack Manifold is standing at the desk. He and Tommy get into a shouting match but Wilbur is excited to see Jack. Jack welcomes him inside and Wilbur waits in one of the suites as Tommy and Jack argue in another room, listening in.
- Tommy takes him up to the roof. There, Tommy tells him about coming up with the plan there to murder Dream in the prison. 
Wilbur: “I’ve seen it all, you’ve had your little strifes -- this isn’t the first, right, Tommy. Tommy, do you remember when you got sent into exile? Yeah, I remember. I was there, Tommy. I was there. I was there -- I was in the cage of that little ghost’s fucking head. Every single step you and me took -- look at me, Tommy, look me in the eyes -- every single step me and you took, I was there -- I was there! I had no control of what was happening, I’ve no idea what was being said, but Tommy -- I’ll tell you what -- if I was there, and it wasn’t that stupid shell of a ghost instead of me...I would’ve struck down Dream right where he stood. We would’ve disemboweled him. We would’ve disemboweled him together.”
“Tommy, I’m not -- I wasn’t blind, I saw what he was doing to you, Tommy. I saw. I saw what he was doing to Tubbo -- I saw what he was doing to me. But you know what, Tommy? I wasn’t there. I wasn’t there, was I. We had Ghostbur. Ghostbur was there instead, right. And you know what the issue is, you know what the issue is? After seeing Ghostbur interact with Dream, I realized that no, Dream is not the enemy -- Dream is not the enemy!”
“This world was not supposed to be inhabited by a people of this caliber -- Dream is the hero! Dream needs to be let out of here! Dream’s not in prison for being a horrible person, Dream’s in prison because he dared to try and stop you all. He dared to try and stop you all from gaining all this power, because the minute I was gone, there was a vacuum, there was opening, and everyone just seeked to get in there! And Dream was the only one who stood up to them and told them not to, Dream was the only one who held my seat for me. He held my -- he kept it warm! He kept my throne warm, and you guys didn’t like that, so you threw him in prison! And if Dream died instead of me, I would be in there right now.”
“So Tommy, you should thank that I wasn’t alive to attack Dream when we got exiled! You should be glad we had little, passive Ghostbur, because now Dream’s in there, and I’m out here, baby.”
- Wilbur heads back down to speak with Jack Manifold. He tells Jack that he’s sorry that he didn’t grant freedom to Manifoldland, sorry that he led Jack into war, sorry that he denied Jack access to the election, sorry that he left Jack behind. Jack is a little surprised, but he thanks him and Wilbur and Tommy leave the hotel. 
Tommy: “Wil, just look at me for a second. The reason we started L’manburg, and everything here, was because we knew -- together, me and you, the duo -- together we knew that Dream was the villain. He was the one holding this server down. He was the dictator! ‘Cause you’re telling me even then, you think...you think Dream was the hero?”
Wilbur: “Tommy, I’ve made an oath of not lying now that I’m alive again. So I’m gonna come clean to you with the truth. Uh...one thing, I didn’t actually care about L’manburg, I just cared about -- you know, sticking it to the man. Actually, I cared about L’manburg for the sole reason that I could use it to stick it to the man. You ever sticked it to the man, Tommy?”
“L’manburg was a tool. It was a great tool, it worked, you know. It divided so many people, man. Listen, Tommy, and in my oath of not lying I’m gonna tell you know -- Tommy, I’m sorry for a couple things, to each of these people on the server. I’m sorry to a lot of them -- except for Phil, I’ve nothing to apologize to Phil for. Phil’s done nothing wrong. But to the rest of them, I’m sorry for a lot of things -- but Tommy, that doesn’t mean I’m not gonna try again.”
- Tommy is confused. L’manburg was Wilbur’s unfinished symphony, how could he not care about it? Wilbur says maybe it wasn’t the right wording, he did care about L’manburg, but for the “wrong reasons.” 
- Wilbur asks to see the museum (though Tommy was going to take him to the Egg). They make it to the museum and Wilbur is excited to see the hto dog van as Tommy continues to protest.
Tommy: “It was like we were a family! You can’t just say that!”
Wilbur: “We were family, Tommy! ...We were. But you know what? You just -- you just didn’t -- I guess you didn’t have the balls to follow along with me. When I pressed the button, you were always against -- we’re leaving it behind, Tommy. It’s in the past--”
Tommy: “You blew up our fucking home!”
Wilbur: “We’re friends now. We’re friends.”
Tommy: “I don’t want to be your friend! You’re annoying and I hate you and you’re ugly and you have a gray hair and I bet you twirl it round and use the dog filter--”
Wilbur: “You’re following me an awful lot for someone who doesn’t care.”
- Wilbur notices the Ranboo My Beloved poster on the wall. He remembers Ranboo as a good man. Tommy says he is, and that he sees potential in him.
- They call Ranboo so that Wilbur can properly meet him. Wilbur says he’s sorry to him. He wanted to get to know Ranboo better, ‘pick his brain.’ Ranboo never met Wilbur in person.
- What nation is Ranboo a part of, who does he align himself with? Ranboo says all of them -- he chooses people, not nations.
Wilbur: “Okay, so -- let’s go an say, so there must be someone bad on the server right, there’s gotta be a bad guy on the server and who --”
Ranboo: “Yeah. Dream, yeah.”
- Wilbur goes quiet for a moment. He then asks what Ranboo stands for. Ranboo says people.
Wilbur: “What ‘people?’ What people? You can’t just stand for people! People are good and bad!”
- Ranboo lists the people he sides with. There are quite a few.
Wilbur: “Everyone? Everyone but Dream, everyone but the one bad guy everyone’s supposed to hate.”
- Wilbur accuses Ranboo of being a “schmoozer.” Ranboo's philosophy is, if someone hasn’t wronged him or the people he cares about, he has no quarrel with them.
- Wilbur says that’s fine in a perfect world, but there are wars that get fought. Ranboo says the server’s been quiet ever since Dream was put in prison and there have been fewer wars since Wilbur died -- to which Wilbur asks if Ranboo is against him in the same way he’s against Dream.
- Wilbur says goodbye to Ranboo, saying that they might get to know each other better in time. Wilbur leaves with Tommy to continue the tour, telling him that Ranboo’s just a follower. 
- Tommy gets angry and tells Wilbur off for being a nuisance, for making him feel like a ghost when Wilbur should be the ghost. They decide to fight, with weapons but no armor. 
- They fight in the Holy Land and Tommy defeats him. Wilbur says, though, that he’s already won no matter what. No matter what happens next, he won when he pressed the button.
- He asks to see Phil. Phil sent him a whole backlog of letters, including ones about things Tommy can’t know about. 
- They arrive at the Arctic and Wilbur remembers this place, remembers finding Friend here. Wilbur reunites with Phil and Wilbur is thrilled by the cottages.
- Wilbur thanks Phil for killing him and tells him the whole bit of what would’ve happened if he’d been there instead of Ghostbur.
- Tommy tells Wilbur that what led to him getting exiled was griefing George’s house with Ranboo. Ranboo didn’t get exiled because Tommy stood up for him -- to which Wilbur asks if Ranboo didn’t stand up for Tommy, letting Tommy get thrown under the bus.
- Phil asks about the lies in the letters. Wilbur tells him that he’s not lying anymore, and he lied in the letters because it’s like writing back from a summer camp -- he didn’t want to tell Phil that everything was going horribly. 
- Wilbur’s made plans, and when they’re ready, Phil will be the first to know. He also asks Phil if he can stay with him for a bit, as he has no house. He also needs a shower.
- Phil agrees to let Wilbur stay despite Tommy protesting, and Wilbur and Tommy leave.
- Ranboo comes over to ask Phil how it went. Phil was skeptical, but it seems like Wilbur’s changed for the better, and that Wilbur spoke highly of Ranboo. As for Ranboo, he says it seems like Wilbur isn’t as bad as people said he was. 
- Phil talks about killing Wilbur and what Wilbur said about it.
- For Wilbur’s plan, he needs lots of stone. Wilbur leaves Tommy at the Nether Portal to go get stone and speak with Phil.
- Phil gives Tommy several stacks of stone. 
- Wilbur says he’ll be “back in the saddle” soon, that he can rebuild. He still doesn’t know how he was revived, but the first thing he saw when he got back was a chest.
- At the shrine, Wilbur opens the chest and reads the “PROJECT NEVADAS” book Quackity left for him. His old rival, his kinsman. 
Wilbur: “Chat, power isn’t won through diplomacy. Power isn’t won through waiting, patiently, floating courthouses in the sky, blah blah blah...it’s won through blades. Swords. Iron...”
“And I was right all along.”
- Tommy leaves Phil and Ranboo for a bit and they continue to talk about Wilbur, whether he’s changed, whether he’s even telling the truth about the afterlife and if even Dream can change.
- When Ranboo mentions that he may have to keep some secrets, Phil asks about the experiments. Ranboo reiterates that they’re just to build resistance, like when a wound heals over stronger. He assures Phil that he’ll be careful.
- Ranboo then leaves to go stand in a corner somewhere for a bit. He doesn’t sleep much, and if Phil ever sees him walking around staring at random things, it’s nothing to worry about
- Tommy goes mining for stone with Mediashare
- Captain Puffy works on the graveyard. She reads the Wiki page for Sally the Salmon and makes some horrible discoveries. She later finds out the Samsung Refrigerator has its own page as well and spends some time learning about the canon family tree.
- She then makes the gravestones and fills out the history books for each of the dead members, including a spot for Ghostbur behind Wilbur’s headstone with his final words.
---
Upcoming events remain the same.
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excalibursbane · 3 years
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hi! very new to tumblr, but i was wondering if you could perhaps write something for cc!jack manifold x reader, if you know him well enough and are comfortable with it?
something where reader streams with jack a lot, and just like fluffy shenanigans happening during streams? platonic or romantic i don’t rlly mind either it’s just i need more jack content lol
hi hi! so i've been trying to work on this and my brain just won't fUCKING LET ME so you get a half-rushed thing lol but i think it's cute :] Pairing: cc!Jack Manifold x reader (Platonic!) Type: Fluff :D
Sitting in Jack Manifold’s room was always a welcome experience, especially when you two were streaming. You didn’t get the chance to see him in person too often but when you did it was always a flurry of emotions and almost too many jokes to even keep track of which were repeats and which weren’t. Today was your first time streaming with him in person in so long and you could tell that the chat was entirely too hyped for just a Mediashare stream. Snickering as yet another ridiculous memey video had gone by and watching Jack play Minecraft, you leaned your head on his shoulder to see the game better.
Chat exploded at the simple gesture, already trying to come up with ship names as Jack looked over and playfully pushed your head off and whacked you with a paper towel tube that had been sitting in between your chairs for this exact purpose. You yelped, laughing, and snatched it from his hands, returning the bonk and you two dissolved into a fit of wheezy giggling. Another video played on screen, a video of a crack edit of Jack, naturally with the Castaways song from The Backyardigans.
“HAH! Oh my god, I’ve seen that so many times and it just gets funnier.” Jack keeled over, cackling at the video. You managed to stay upright and tap Jack on the back, starting to read a donation.
“‘Hey Jack I was in the shower but you were streaming can’t stop that Jack Manifold x y/n grind it don’t stop’” You paused at the last bit and turned to Jack. “Jack. Jack, they’re shipping us help.” You said it completely deadpan, trying so hard to start cracking up. Jack sat up, an entertained expression set over his features, looked over at the dono, and sighed. You snickered again, turning to him. “What are you gonna do about that?” Jack looked at you and then stared directly into the webcam in response:
“No.” Was the only thing he said in the most monotone voice you’d ever heard from him. You managed to hold your composure for a moment more before you both cracked a smile and started to laugh again, chat virtually wheezing along with you two. More Mediashares came in, along with two edits of you and Jack in past streams, one being a crack edit and one a ship edit, plus several other nonsense videos. You were playing along with Jack on your monitor as you two built a house with you sabotaging his door placement with wood planks.
You two love to mess around and jokingly flirt with each other and watch chat go insane, throwing pickup lines back and forth like a football, some even DreamSMP related.
“Call me Ponk’s Lemon Tree cuz I’m burning for you.”
“Oh that’s a good one! Hm… What about uh… L’manberg may not have been meant to be but we are!” Jack would start laughing at his own jokes and you’d end up laughing with him, too caught up in the chaos to keep track of much else.
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kitsu-katsu · 3 years
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About revived (by Derivakat)
(Disclaimer: Nothing against Derivakat, I think her songs are amazing in general and she's very talented, I simply have a bone to pick with these lyrics and characterization)
So um, here's my counter to some of the lyrics because fuck it, I'm tired and fueled by spite, let's go:
Let's start with the chorus:
"White streak in my hair but no stress now" - Funnily incorrect, cc!Wilbur confirmed that the white hair is from stress itself, it's not about the revival process alone. Also just by reasoning, I cannot imagine what might have been stressful about spiralling and believing that the world is out to crush you, believing that you're the scum of the Earth as well, only to die, spend 13 and half years in dark isolation and then being jolted back up to life missing huge chunks of information, really cannot fathom how that might be stressful /s
"I've seen hell, but this is a bit more my style" - True you know? It's awesome that he's said that he's over the moon about being alive again after spending 13 and a half years of pure isolation in the dark, screming until his throat was hoarse. But coming from the tone of it, I'd like to point out that Wilbur's also still passively suicidal and self harms (check out the part under "He doesn't love TNT, he self-harms with it" in this post)
"A decade of time to make everything mine" (also counts for "This is my sunrise, this is my dawn, this is what I've waited for all along. All of this time, all this is mine. MINE. MINE. MINE!")- Honestly, based on what he's been doing, no prejudices, forget everything fandom's said: he doesn't really seem to want to "make everything his", does he? This perception mostly comes from him saying "This is my sunrise, this is mine!" in the original revival stream, however, if you forget about common fandom perception, what's so evilly framed about a guy who spent 13 and a half years of isolation in the dark saying "this is my sunrise!" after watching the sun coming up again for the first time since his death, in which he was extremely emotionally unstable? Like for real?
Now onto the verses:
"Am I the bad guy? I'll be the bad guy again" and "I've come back hell-bent" - Now, he has said that: “Here’s the thing, Tommy. I, I, I, I know I was bad, and I know I can redeem myself, but like, you know, there’s a little bit of fun in being bad, you know, we’ve spoken about this.” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 11:31, 5th May), BUT, since then he's also expressed genuine remorse for his worse actions during Pogtopia (check out the parts under "He really regrets what happened in Pogtopia" and "Wilbur cares. A LOT" in this post), a wanting to redeem himself and truly become better and... uh... OH! He's also admitted that he's afraid he scares people and cried when Ranboo said that he was "an alright person". For real, just watch the Healthy Competition stream and read this reddit post by cc!Wilbur
The reddit post in question, just in case:
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"You think I cared? It was always a means to an end" - So false. Just... so false. Ok, so quick one, let's review the actual lines said originally about him "not caring for L'manburg" in full:
“Uh, one thing, I didn’t actually really care about L'Manberg, I just cared about, you know, sticking it to the man. Actually, I cared about L'Manberg for the sole reason that I could use it to stick it to the man.” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 24:18, 5th May)
“Look, I- Okay, I said it wrong. Look, I did care about- I did care about L'Manberg, but I cared about it for- You would call it the wrong reasons, but I, I- Just don’t think about it, don’t think about it too hard. Look, L'Manberg’s gone now, we’ve got that, you know- That, that wart on my side is gone, you know. I salute it, I salute it, you know, it was a great- It was a great place.” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 25:18, 5th May)
“Look, Tommy, I’m gonna reiterate for you once more because I don’t think you quite understood, and that’s okay, you know, you don’t need to understand everything. I did care about L'Manberg. I did, I did. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet, Tommy. L'Manberg would have been as loved by me had it been called Bimbum and was built in the middle of the desert.” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 26:05, 5th May)
“The actual location, and the actual things it was, it were, were not important to me. It’s the thing it stood for. Which was freedom, liberty, and sticking it to the man, Tommy!” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 26:26, 5th May)
“We were a family, Tommy. We were…” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 27:26, 5th May)
So as you may see, he retracts himself immediately and explains his feelings with more nuance
Then, let's look at the more recent confession to Ranboo:
“I told Tommy that I didn’t actually care about L'Manberg, and that it was just like a tool for me to use to gain like, you know, power and stuff. But it’s not, it’s not true.” - (Wilbur’s A Year Later: 26:36, 3rd Aug)
“L'Manberg is- was really important to me. And it is still to this day.” - (Wilbur’s A Year Later: 26:47, 3rd Aug)
“I want it to, em, I want its history to live on not as a stain caused by me, you know. I basically just took a big shit on the history books, it feels like. I wanna, I wanna make it, I wanna make it feel like it was, you know, it was something that happened. You know, it was a great thing, you know, think of the good times. The- The years of safety. Well, not years, but you know.” - (Wilbur’s A Year Later: 26:47, 3rd Aug)
If this got more explicit I'd be literally hitting you over the head with it. Anyway, check out the parts under "Wilbur cared. A LOT" and "He really cared and cares about L'Manburg, and didn't want its ideals twisted to hur others with" in this post
"So who cares? So what? I'm not calming down" and "Shut up! And listen" - “Tommy, shut up! I mean, Tommy, come over here. Tommy, come over here, come over here, man. It’s cool, it’s cool, it’s cool. Sorry, I, I-” (Alivebur)
– (Wilbur’s A Deck of Cards with a Green Smile on them: 26:08, 31st May)
That line's totality gets often cut down, erasing the immediate apology after the loss of cool. Furthermore, I'd argue that him "not calming down" in general is mainly due to his euphoria and overexcitement during certain scenes where it makes complete sense for him to be feeling like that, and in a broader sense, he has a tendency to say things in the heat of the moment and out of impulsivity that he turns to later regret from all the way back at Pogtopia. Him not calming down now is either out of impulsivity or outright euphoria to be out of limbo, not necessarily an evil thing. And when he percieves he should calm down, he tries his best to do it, or apologizes for snapping
“I’m sorry I wasn’t, you know, entirely on the same page. But, man, I promise you, I’ve calmed down, you know, I’m all, I’m all settled in. I understand, you know, what’s changed, what hasn’t, who’s new, who’s old, you know, who’s still about, you know, who… Who, uh… uh… Who trusts me and stuff.” - (Wilbur’s A Year Later: 15:04, 3rd Aug)
“I relived that explosion in my head so many times man. And, and, and I- I get that you don’t, you don’t trust me, I do, but like, man, look at me, bro, I’m not gonna do it again. I’m not gonna- I’m not gonna hurt you again.” - (Wilbur’s A Year Later: 21:21, 3rd Aug)
(Check out the parts under "Wilbur cares. A LOT", "Paranoia and distrustfulness are integral parts of his character", "Self-loathing and self-sabotage are also integral parts of his character", "He hesitated regarding the button tons of times" and "He feels inhuman. He knows that people see him as a freak, evil or crazy and that makes him feel dehumanized" in this post)
"There's nothing wrong with me" - BUDDY. Wilbur drowns in self-hatred, what are you talking about? The man got caught off guard and cried when someone said "you're an alright person"... He's worried that he scares people, he knows how others see him on top of his own self-hatred
“TommyInnit, as you know, is just, he thinks I’m insane. I’m not insane, chat, I’m not insane.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 4:30, 16th Oct)
“See, I’m not so crazy, Tommy. I know what I’m doing.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 16:40, 16th Oct)
“I’ve told you, I’m not crazy, Tommy. I know what I’m doing, and this is genuinely the best thing we could do right now.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 17:18, 16th Oct)
“I’m not crazy! How am I crazy?!” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 43:18, 17th Oct)
“Everyone I seem to meet has this deep intrisnic feeling of disgust towards me. Jack Manifold seemed to be quite nice to me, but I reckon he, I could feel it, you know, in his stare. But like, you don’t have that. I can tell you’re a good guy.” - (Wilbur’s resurrected gentleman of L'manburg: 30:24, 5th May)
“Quackity, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ll be honest you with you, I’ve lost everything, man. I, um. I’ve lost decades of my life. I’ve lost my- most of the people who cared about me. Some people don’t even know I’m back yet, and I, and I think that’s probably for the best. So I feel like that does humble a man. That really humbles a man, you know?” – (Wilbur’s A Deck of Cards with a Green Smile on them: 1:00:52, 31st May)
“Listen, Phil, I met, I met Quackity. After you very kindly lent me your house. I went and met him. Yeah! I met up with him, and I hadn’t seen him in ages. It was, I’m gonna say it, it was nice. It was a nice time. I- I- It felt good, it felt, uh, you know, he didn’t, he didn’t seem afraid of me, which is cool.” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 7:38, 25th July)
“Not many people do. I mean, Phil, you don’t seem afraid of me, you’re not afraid of me, are you, Phil?” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 8:03, 25th July)
“Good, good. 'Cause I’m not afraid of you.” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 8:10, 25th July)
“Why? Why? … No, no, no, no, no, not the, not the bit about the, not the bit about the right foot, the why don’t you think I’m a bad person?” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 35:13, 25th July)
“Can I be real with you, man? I think I scare people.” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 36:30, 25th July)
“I mean, like I, I, I, I don’t think I, I- I think a lot of people share your idea, but they share your idea in trying to- trying to keep me from hurting them, you know? Like they’ve seen what I can do, and they don’t want me to do it again, so they adopt your emotion in order to do it.” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 36:46, 25th July)
“Dream is- He’s had his comeuppance, and I have not! My comeuppance was apparently not good enough for this people. They’re just waiting, they’re waiting for the next thing for me to slip up on, and, Ranboo, I’m not gonna fucking slip up, Ranboo. I’m different.” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 38:07, 25th July)
“I’m living in eternal limbo, again. I’ve been through limbo, I’m out of limbo, and socially, I’m still in this limbo.” - (Wilbur’s Healthy Competition: 38:36, 25th July)
(Check out the parts under "He feels inhuman. He knows that people see him as a freak, evil or crazy and that makes him feel dehumanized", "Paranoia and distrustfulness are integral parts of his character" and "Self-loathing and self-sabotage are also integral parts of his character" in this post)
"Oh yes, I blew up the nation!" (said with glee) - I make a point of the tone in this specific line, because I could make a point of the tone in the whole song, but this line is a good example. He didn't blow up L'manburg just with glee like "hell yeah! I did it!". Of course he talks about it with pride sometimes, but it's usually either said in the middle of the same impulsive moments in which he'd claim he doesn't care, said with relief of him having control over at least that situation (like him sighing right after doing it just to ask Phil to finish it off by killing him), or said with the same deflection with which he'd claim that not having a grave didn't affect him and was badass actually since he only wanted it for the hateful obituaries anyway (which was a lie, and he admitted it on the third of august stream when saying "I was so pressed about not having a grave" in case you had doubts)
Finally, I want to make emphasis on the fact that: The explosion on the 16th had two main drives behind it and they often get glossed over. The first objectivee was blowing it up and causing just enough destruction to get L'manburg back (You know, when Wilbur still had some kind of hope). After his spiral went further and his paranoia and self-loathing worsened, his two drives become apparent: First was blowing it up to rid the world of the twisted thing L'manburg became, ridding the world of what the twisted version of his ideals became with Schlatt in control of them. Secondly, he wanted to end L'manburg as a part of himself and rid the world of himself completely (by this I'm referencing his suicide), he decided he wanted to die and expected that as a result since a lot of time before the 16th. The explosion was effectively a bigger projection of his suicide, rid the world of both himself and his creation, mixed with his constant desire to protect, it also becomes "rid the world of the corrupted version of L'manburg that became Manburg", because for all intents and purposes, since the important thing about L'manburg was its founding ideals, L'manburg had been dead for a long time at that point.
“Yesterday I had the perfect opportunity to blow everything up and finally end it, you know. I had the perfect opportunity to finally blow up everything and end it and just completely save everyone, right, from the tyranny of Schlatt and the tyranny of the existence of Manberg and L’Manberg, right.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 25:17, 17th Oct)
“Explain it to me! Give me a reason! Give me a reason!” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 26:50, 17th Oct)
“Who else is it gonna hurt?! It’s gonna hurt Schlatt, Manberg, and-” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 26:55, 17th Oct)
“Why did I bring- I should have just done it. I’m such a fucking showman. I should have just done it.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 27:18, 17th Oct)
“No you two can escape, I’ll be the… I’ll- I’ll- I’ll be… I’ll be trapped in here…” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 27:27, 17th Oct)
“I just- I just want to f… I just wanna end it, I wanna end it. I wanna press that button, man.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 28:08, 17th Oct)
(Check out the parts under "Wilbur cares. A LOT", "Paranoia and distrustfulness are integral parts of his character", "Self-loathing and self-sabotage are also integral parts of his character", "He hesitated regarding the button tons of times", "He really cared and cares about L'Manburg, and didn't want its ideals twisted to hur others with", and "He really regrets what happened in Pogtopia" in this post)
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lavender-ghosting · 2 years
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What’s your favorite era of the Dream SMP? 
Disc Wars: Tommy being chaotic and loud, Sapnap and Tommy friendship, the start of something new. Something big.
L’manberg Founding: Wilbur Soot fulfilling his brother/mentor role. The first Sad-ist animation. “It was never meant to be”. The pet wars. Nikki flag making stream. Karl and Quackity trying to join L’manberg and kinda getting around the rules, but Sapnap being firmly not allowed in.
The Elections: Wilbur’s revolutionary costume. Courthouses full of people just screaming over each other and bribery. Coconut 2020. Schlatt coming out of left field. Vikkstar endorsement. The building of the podium and the white house and other such important landmarks.
Pogtopia/Manburg: Technoblade. The constant feeling of dread as Wilbur randomly joins streams and makes not so vague threats to blow it all up. Drista’s first appearance. “There’s one thing I’ll have that you’ll never ever have. I have the blade” Nikki’s birthday party. Karl and Quackity doing back to back stream eras. The biggest plot we had seen so far. The Festival. November 16th. 
Reconstruction Era: Rebuilding Streams. The new cabinet forming. Ghostbur but he’s slowly becoming fleshed out as a character. New L’manberg is built on stilts. Fundy adoption arc and subsequent angst. Schlatt’s chaotic funeral. Mexican L’manberg.
Exile: Ranboo. Daily Tommy streams, and the increasing dread that came with each one.The first time he looked into the lava and everyone’s hearts dropped. The Butcher Army. Tubbo trying to keep it all together. Mushroom Henry. How to Sex 2. Ghostbur’s sewer and library. El Rapids. A tall tall tower, “he was just here to watch me” and the victory of Tommy running away from Logsteadshire.
Tommy and Techno Team Up: The dread isn’t over, it’s still there whenever Dream visits and Tommy is hiding in a corner with invisibility. Recovery is messy. Minor terrorism. Cobblestone towers. “Surely not” Christmas sweaters and holding ConnorEatsPants for ransom. 
Season 2 Endings: Doomsday. The whole server comes together, but not to work as a team, rather to witness a tragedy. Friend the Sheep. Ghostbur wanting to be revived. HBomb lore. Nikki burning the L’mantree. Bitterness. The anthem being sung one more time. The Disc War Finale. The whole server comes together, but not to witness a tragedy, rather to work together. The prison is finally put to use. The bench.
Hotel Arc: Sam Nook. Animal Crossing. Small little happy tasks. Tommy Healing Arc. Jack Manifold’s Cartoon Villainy turned up to 11. Tommy flying through the air with his trident. Triumphant.
The Egg Arc: Propaganda! Captain Puffy angst. BadBoyHalo and Skeppy’s tragic relationship. The audio editing to create a horror effect. Red eyes. The Red Banquet. The indescribable horror of the egg not being able to die. 
The Prison Arc: RIP Pussboy the cat. “I’m on two hearts!” Limbo. Hearing c!Wilbur for the first time in a long time. Awesamdude truly becomes The Warden. The revival book. The Syndicate. A majority of the server mourning Tommy’s death. Jack Manifold’s bittersweet feelings towards Tommy, and the beginning of the hotel conflict. Snowchester. Lost nukes. Interrogations and investigations by Tubbo. Benchtrio streams prepping for the day Tommy is supposed to kill Dream. Wilbur’s revival. “Tommy, I don’t want to die!” 13 and a half years.
Las Nevadas: Cinematography. Found family but bad. Cookie outpost conflict. Literal torture. “Dap me up!” Wilbur and Quackity rivarly returns. Glatt! Snowing in the desert. Exploded UFOs, old totem gods, revenge. Legacy.
((Disclaimer: Obviously I can’t get everything. I know so much more happened on the server, but I’m not going to be typing up anymore.))
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rynzii-419 · 3 years
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OKAY time to talk about Pogtopia Wilbur because everyone should talk about him more
Disclaimer: c!wilbur is a bad person and his mental state is not an excuse for his actions but he is definitely not pure evil, so thats my point here basically
I’m gonna start this one off the same as my last one: Wilbur was never manipulative in Pogtopia. Honestly, I think the fandom has been overusing that word. The argument is supposed to be that Wilbur was attempting to manipulate Tommy into thinking that they were alone and were the bad guys, but my friends I hate to tell you this but that’s not manipulation, that’s a mental spiral and delusions. If Wilbur thought that everyone was on their side, this would be manipulation, but he really believed that they were all against them. From what he saw, his Lmanburg, the country that he bled and died for, that he cried every night over, was flourishing without him, and that made him believe that everyone was happy that him and Tommy were banished and in suffering. So yeah, definitely not manipulation.
NOW, about the whole idea that he didn’t care if anyone died. Yet again, wrong. He talked a lot of big game leading up to the Red Festival, a lot of “i dont care if anyone dies” and that he didn’t care about Niki. But if you look at his actions, you’ll see his words don’t line up with that idea. He made a deal with Tubbo that he would only blow it up if Tubbo gave the signal, giving Wilbur an easy way out. Plus, if you watch from his perspective as they watch Tubbo get executed, you’ll see he is worried about Tubbo and is completely shocked when Techno actually kills him. Yes, he starts frantically searching for the button with the intent to blow it all up, but he immediately drops his search once he hears that Niki might be in danger. I mean, he very well could have died right there. They were already out to kill him and then he put himself right out there on a silver platter? Sure Wilbur sure you don’t care about Niki /s. The very next day, he changes his story. We see that in the first ever button room scene with Tommy and Quackity. He says that this is the perfect time to do it because the only people that will be caught in the crossfire is him and Schlatt, and those are the only people he really wants gone. The only thing that stops him is Tommy telling him that if he does this right now, he wouldn’t just hurt himself but Tommy and Quackity too. So yeah, he can talk all he wants about killing everyone, but in the end he can’t do it.
Now, November 16. Oh boy this one hurt me so bad. I can’t take anything from this stream as pure evil. I just can’t. He was at the edge of his spiral. He was broken, and quite honestly he wanted his dad to be proud (i mean thats pretty canon I’d say). He thought that no matter what, even if they win, L’manburg, the country he made, is gone. And honestly, he was kind of right. If you look at New L’manburg, it was never going to be the haven that L’manburg was. That was gone, and that knowledge broke Wilbur. Was he right to blow it up? Absolutely not. But does that change how we should look at this? YES it should. Also, i think its kinda funny but everyone always says he blew up L’manburg and killed everyone but there were zero casualties that day other than him and Schlatt. I mean we can talk about how he killed Jack Manifold but i dont like that one much because at the time that he killed him, it wasn’t meant to be canon. But other than that he never had any canon kills, but everyone talks like he killed everyone there. I dunno, just something that bugs me sometimes. Also I don’t think this is acknowledged enough but his death was in fact an assisted suicide. That’s how far he was gone. That just feels really important to me.
So um yeah I think thats all, next up maybe i talk about L’manburg arc and how everyone who says that he’s always been evil is just very wrong. Also this is all /nm, its a minecraft roleplay at the end of the day, its just so fun for me to talk about
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The Syndicate/Butcher Army Parallels and Perpendiculars
Here's my thoughts on Technoblade's "First Meeting" stream and the discourse surrounding it. This is a long one. /rp for all of this. All names from here on out are in reference to characters, not content creators.
First: a list of similarities and differences between the Syndicate's visit to Snowchester and the Butcher Army's visit to Technoblade's retirement home.
Similarities
Four people in full netherite approach a snowy settlement currently populated by one individual
Said individual is alerted in advance to the approach by someone they trust, and therefore given enough time to prepare
Said individual has the potential to absolutely decimate their enemies if they choose to, and their decision not to is important
There is a pet that the individual cares about who could be threatened if things go south
Differences
The Syndicate’s visit to Snowchester was intended to be a stealth mission- failed very early on because Tubbo was right there
The Butcher Army broke into Phil’s house to find out where Techno was hiding. The Syndicate already knew the vague area of where Snowchester is.
The Butcher Army was always going to push Techno to violence, because they did not care that Techno was retired. The Syndicate recognized that Snowchester is not L’Manburg 2.0 and therefore left it alone.
The Butcher Army threatened Carl to force Techno to comply. Ranboo and Tubbo hid Michael before Techno got there. (Imo it was unnecessary considering Techno gave Jack Manifold’s fox a golden apple rather than threatening it, but I can understand their concern since pets in general have a short lifespan on the smp.)
Now: some analysis
Tubbo was the Technoblade in this stream. Here he is, surrounded by what he has built, showing people that could be his enemies around. The Syndicate means him no harm, but Tubbo doesn’t know that. He is outnumbered. If they wanted to hurt him, kill him, blow up everything he cares about, they could, and in his experience, if someone can do those things, they will. So he puts up a front of nonchalance and shows them the crater. The subtext seemingly goes right over Techno’s head that Tubbo is preparing for history to repeat itself.
Ranboo is doing the same thing. Ranboo was also part of the Butcher Army. He watched how they treated Techno and how they executed him without a real trial. New L’Manburg was a paranoid nation always looking for traitors. I can actually kind of understand why Ranboo didn’t immediately speak up that Snowchester was peaceful. If he had told the Butcher Army that Techno was peaceful, they would have gone ahead with their plans anyway and accused Ranboo of being in league with the enemy. Ranboo should probably know Phil and Techno better than that by now, but man’s got anxiety so I’ll cut him a little bit of slack. Ranboo could also see history repeating itself and wanted to protect his husband and adopted son.
The key difference here is the Syndicate’s reaction to Snowchester. They are wary, because of course they are. Phil, Techno, Niki, and Ranboo know better than anyone else how quickly a small nation can turn corrupt. (Niki especially had a visceral reaction to Tubbo wearing the black shield with the red x, which is understandable given her history under Schlatt.) So they don’t sugarcoat what they’re doing, but they don’t put words in Tubbo’s mouth when he describes what Snowchester is. They listen, they follow Tubbo without barging into any buildings or looking through chests, and when they understand what’s going on, that Tubbo has no intentions to institute a hierarchy or start conquering other people, they leave. This is where people slip up and start calling the Syndicate tyrannical or claim it’s policing the SMP. From the similarities, it could look like that, and let’s be real, people poking around your base on the Dream SMP is very rarely benign. However, the Syndicate is not the Butcher Army. They are looking to benefit everyone on the server by fighting tyranny. The Butcher Army did not care who they hurt or lied to if it was in the name of securing power.
Personally, I’m hoping this leads to better cooperation between people on the SMP. Ranboo and Tubbo might be able to see that Techno is not just a being of violence and chaos; he can be reasoned with. Ranboo might be able to gain more confidence as the Syndicate allows him to speak his piece without being accused of treachery. I haven’t even mentioned how happy I am that Niki is actually being listened to and involved in this arc. The Syndicate gives people freedom and is a vehicle for mutual aid and cooperation. The Butcher Army was a group of hitmen hell-bent on reinforcing government power at any cost.
(I do not have time to go through all the streams to find timestamps for all the things I’m referencing, so feel free to add on to this post if you do have the time to gather textual evidence.)
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salted-caramel-tea · 3 years
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Every time I do this I say ‘this was the biggest event on the smp’,, but this one really was the event of the smp. This was the finale of everything they’ve been fighting for since day 1. So much effort has gone into the smp from the beginning when it was just dream, George and Sapnap up until now, with so many people coming together to enjoy this world together.
Wilbur gave us a lot through the lmanberg arc,, what with the first war, the exile and the reclaiming of the country. He’s put so much effort into writing a captivating and suspenseful story (even if some of it was based on Hamilton) and adapted to let others make their character more prominent. His character might have been a bit of a twat,, but it was so well written and played out, you can’t help but appreciate the work that went into developing him from Wilbur to Ghostbur. Even if he wasn’t present in this storyline he still deserves to be appreciated. Let’s see what happens with him next.
Tubbo, although people see him as nothing more than a sidekick, he’s he’s been an integral part of the smp since the day he joined- he started the disc war with tommy, he helped create lmanburg and eventually became its leader. He’s the one thing Tommy cares about. While people praise c!Tubbo, I’ve seen little appreciation for streamer tubbo so here it is- he has put so much into this server, he might not have written the storyline but he’s always been there to help develop his own character and everyone else’s. It wouldn’t be the same without him.
It can be argued that tommy is the protagonist of the smp- he started the wars, he was exiled from lmanberg (twice), he was the one dream was after. But tommy himself, he puts so much emotion into his acting, he looks genuinely hurt or torn about difficult decisions, sniffling and running his hands through his hair. You can see the difference between him fighting outside of lore and within lore, he puts in so much effort to make sure it’s as good as it can be for everyone watching his stream. He started his war, and today he finished it. He said nothing bad can happen now. That’s what he deserves for everything his been through. These streams must have been exhausting for him to have played his emotions like that. Take a break tommy, u deserve it.
Dream. He plays a villain so well. He puts so much into the storyline, he puts so much into his acting. His character genuinely scares me at times. The moment I truly realised just how much his character revolves around Tommy was when he told Tommy to burn spirit right in front of him and fro there he’s only grown. He’s built up a character that seemed so untouchable and unbeatable and I’m glad that he gave Tommy the opportunity to overpower him. I’m so proud of dream for creating this world and working so hard to help develop the storyline (with the help of techno and Wilbur)
Quackity takes his acting seriously and he always knocks it out of the park. Niki, fundy and jack manifold have set up new and interesting storylines for themselves. Ranboo is an amazing addition to the smp, he cares about his character so much and he puts so much effort into every lore stream. Sapnap isn’t always present but when he does he puts so much emotion into all his interactions. Sam has spent so long building various things for various people in the server, including the prison and I’m glad he was able to get involved in this storyline and recalim his build. Ponk has been there since the beginning, he’s always been there to help people and I’m glad Tommy recognised him for that. Punz finally got his moment. He finally got his opportunity to stand up to dream, and insert himself fully into the story as a leader. I’m proud of him. There’s so many people who have put effort into the smp and I know I didn’t cover them all but there just isn’t enough time in the world. They’ve all put so much into this and I can’t help but appreciate every single one of them. Even George, who slept through every single event.
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justalads · 3 years
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this is an essay post that was written in response to an in-depth discussion i was having with another person on a lot of topics. that’s why it’s written like it’s addressing someone. because of that, it is a little confusing on its own (because the things in quotes are responding to things the other person said) but me and the person who runs this blog thought it would be better to make this a separate post, so that people who want to see this response can see it without it being attached to the person i was having the discussion with. we spoke to the person and they said that would be fine. with that being said, this is a very long post. if anyone finds parts of it useful, it will have served its original purpose.
so what i mean about it “making sense” that dream became like that is that it kind of does, you know? i’m saying that the desires were always there. not that he was always willing to go so far for them, or even that they were as strong as they ended up being! after all, there’s a difference between declaring war to reclaim land and people, and making a vault in order to take things that were important to people.
what he always did possess is a sort of “ownership” of the server. and this was probably founded from the fact that it was, you know, his server. he wanted l’manburg back because he didn’t like that people came onto his server and then said he couldn’t have something. and that’s one of his primary points in his conversation with skeppy: the analogy he uses of someone coming into his house and saying he can’t have a table.
and later, in the vault, this is the reason he gives for wanting control: that it is his server. he tells tommy it isn’t supposed to be fair, it doesn’t need to be fair, because fairness implies equality, and he doesn’t see everyone else as having equal claim to the server. so that’s what i mean when i say the signs were always there: his statements match upand paint a path through the story. true, you don’t just “become” a bad person. there’s no reason for him to suddenly get all weird and want ultimate control, if he was completely neutral and peaceful in the beginning. this is why his character is decently written!
and since the potential was there in the first place, that’s what gave him the ability to or put him in danger of doing what he did.
so yeah, it’s true that his spiral was not only his fault, because even someone who thinks they own something is not going to just jump to the lengths that he did. he had other experiences, and saw how other people worked, and then was met by pushback from people when he wanted them all to do what he said. because his house analogy is lacking something: he owns the house, but everyone else lives there too.
it may be “his” server in that he pays upkeep fees, but that doesn’t mean he deserves control over everything that happens on it! if your roommate goes “i want this table and you can’t have it”, even if the house belongs to you, it’s kind of weird to go “no you can’t have it, it’s mine”. especially if all the roommate wants the table for is so they can play monopoly or something with their group. and even more so if the roommate will let you play monopoly if you want to (remember the embassy?), and if you can just buy a new table then what’s the point in getting upset over the one?
i just think you put a lot more of the responsibility on other characters. saying that all they did was villainize him and treat him as pure evil and break his boundaries is wrong because one, no, that’s not all they did, it’s exaggerated, and two, he was also doing things to them! it did not come out of nowhere! and clearly, his mindset didn’t come from nothing, so a personal flaw contributed to it! people who are innocent and care too much about others and are then mistreated do not do what dream did, and we know this because there is a character very similar to that: ranboo.
(i could talk about this for a super long time honestly. it’s very interesting how close they are, and since enderwalk ranboo is just ranboo with all his memories and he helped dream... there’s clearly something that happened that he’s forgotten that’s very important.)
hates conflict, tries to mediate things, cares about the people he loves to a fault. and we don’t see him running around and telling people they can’t build nations because it “divides people”! he has also been hurt and betrayed, but he still recognizes his responsibility to respect others and their agency. the difference between dream and ranboo is that one, dream has a spine, and two, dream thinks of the server as his. dream’s belief is one of the driving causes of his actions.
it’s true that nobody deserves to lose half their friends at once. it’s also true that before he declared war, nobody had any actual negative feelings towards him. they made fun of him for saying his side had more women. he made fun of them for having none. it was playful banter. that’s the thing about the hot dog stream: the tone is incredibly light. wilbur soot, known dramatic idiot, decided he was going to go play capitalism on a minecraft server. both tommy and wilbur at that point had been making various stupid attempts to gain “power”. and none of this was treated seriously, because others were doing the same kinds of things.
you know how many times tommy logged on and got involved in small petty conflicts? pretty much none of them are mentioned in canon again, because at this point, there wasn’t even much of a canon to get involved in. the smp at this point was a place for people to go and do bits. and invoking wilbur’s joke hatred of tommy and those like him seems a little unfair. wilbur’s main bit was calling tommy an annoying child. when wilbur was stealing the blaze rods, it was not an actual attempt to get power because it was not treated as such by anyone, it was treated with the exact seriousness that it deserved: sapnap and tubbo declared themselves the “police”.
what kind of actual control is going to come from taking blaze rods, especially on a server where you can just go get more? and it’s not like theft is really a crime on the server. everyone else chose to play into the bit.
it’s like now, when tommy shows up with a new idea and people who don’t like him start claiming that this is proof that he never learned anything and he was actually bad all along. the church prime thing, l’sandburg, any time he steals something or is rude to jack manifold. because although semi-lore is fun, sometimes people treat it as serious lore when parts of it are not intended to be and then use it to imply things about the characters that don’t line up with canon.
that’s kinda off topic and not really about dream, so i’ll move on
“i’d like to ask you to once again watch the actual stream.”
i mean, yeah. i did watch the stream. i don’t know a lot about george, and i prefaced my thoughts at the start by saying that. obviously attempting to catch up after isn’t as good as knowing the context and plot, (this sounds sarcastic but it is genuine i’m sorry sjhksjs) but i do want to offer this: it’s an opportunity to look at the plot in a different way. you say that you are on dream’s side in this scene, and while having that bias alone isn’t bad, i think it’s a good idea to attempt to see the other side. that’s what i’ve been doing while going back and forth with you; examining my own bias and attempting to look past it, and explain why it’s there.so dream kicks george off the throne. and you say that it’s not bad that dream does it, because george’s monarchy was already a figurehead. you know, i don’t see this as being any better? this means that when dream made george king, he already did it with the fact that george wasn’t really in charge in dream’s mind, meaning that dream was, you know, the ultimate authority. that is a power dynamic. dream has control over who is king of his faction.
when you watch the stream where dream makes george king originally, dream doesn’t really let him know that his power isn’t real. that’s the problem with this situation: the presence of a power dynamic alone is not the issue, it’s the fact that dream was misleading about its presence. dream just tells him “you’re king.” in fact, dream demonstrates more control over eret, by telling them just that they can’t be in charge anymore and george is king now. he tells them to take off their crown, to which they protest because it’s a layer on their skin and it would show their eyes, something they’re uncomfortable with. dream says “i need you to do it. you gotta do it. i mean, i’m not asking you, we have three of us here.”
they physically threaten eret. and by the way, the reason that dream thought eret had “betrayed” the greater smp? eret was attempting to help pogtopia and make things right with the people of l’manburg, something you claim was also dream’s wish during this time (he had switched over to manburg at this point). dream told eret that the king had a duty to remain neutral.
it is only then, when dream tells eret to remain neutral on things, that dream tells eret that the act of being king means nothing. this is where the “what makes you king” quote coms from, by the way. dream has the ultimate control over who is king. but whenever he makes someone king, he doesn’t tell them that. and when dream leaves, eret fully realizes this and admits that dream’s right: they don’t have any power. so what was the point of betraying l’manburg?
if there was no power with being king, why did george accept it? why was there even a king in the first place? the only reason eret agreed to betray l’manburg in the first place was because dream offered them power.
when dream confronts eret about remaining neutral, dream says “my plan is that there’s no manburg, there’s no l’manburg, there’s no pogtopia, there’s just dream smp and there’s dream smp everywhere. and that’s been my plan since the very beginning, i’ve never wavered on that. that’s why i had you betray them, and that’s why i gave you kingship, because i felt like you’d be a good king because you’re neutral.”
ignoring the fact that he’s twisting why he made eret king (they were on the side of l’manburg and he tempted them away), he also claims that his faction only has been his goal since the beginning. this will be important later.
cc!eret confirmed in a twitter thread on their alt that their character was possibly the longest victim of dream’s manipulation.
and finally, watching the stream where dream dethrones george, the thing sticking out to me is how dream is phrasing it. he says that george should step down because people are attacking him, and dream isn’t always going to be able to protect him. and then he says this.
“and i think you’ll just be targeted if you’re the king. and you want to be able to like, get revenge on tommy and stuff, right? so we can work together.”
i kind of wish he didn’t bring up tommy. i kind of wish his main goal at this time wasn’t just going after tommy because he thought tommy was the root of all the problems. and i think this kind of highlights a little bit that when dream built the walls around l’manburg again, it wasn’t just because he was “defending george” or anything, because i don’t think george really cared that much? dream was using the fact that it was george’s house that blew up in order to go after tommy.
after this line, the others all kind of gang up on dream, true. it’s partially for the joke, as evidenced by quackity’s “THE GIRLS ARE FIGHTING!”, but it’s also kind of them being, you know, legitimately angry at his character. and it’s funny that it’s sapnap who leads it. sapnap brings up what dream said, that he doesn’t care about anything except for the disks. dream says that he didn’t mean it, and then george says “then why did you say it?” so dream saying that clearly hurt them, and he can’t just push it off by saying he didn’t mean it once.
and in the end, george doesn’t even agree before dream makes eret king again! george and sapnap are trying to have a conversation with dream about how they feel they’ve been treated, and dream brushes it off with “maybe this isn’t a good time to bring it up,” before ultimately ignoring what they’re both saying because in his mind he has a good enough reason and it doesn’t matter what george thinks.
dream is in the act of passing power over to eret, and george says “i’m still king. i’m literally right here.” dream shushes him. dream also implies that the reason george is getting attacked is because he backs up everything dream says, reducing george down to an extension of his own will or calling him a follower. dream accuses sapnap of trying to divide him and george, and sapnap says this: “i’m not dividing anyone, i stand by george. he’s my king but most importantly he’s my friend.” dream replies that george is his friend but not his king.
i just sort of want to show you the other side here. george and sapnap weren’t just running around instigating conflict any more than dream was. and although george didn’t do anything as king, it meant something to him, because it was a symbol of the trust he thought dream had for him. dream saying he was taking it away for his own good meant he didn’t even trust george to protect himself. he was treating him like a child.
and then when george is silent, listening to everyone debate whether he deserves this or not, dream accuses him of only pretending to be sad. it’s true that he was pretending to cry, but i don’t think that warranted dream telling him he’s “acting like a baby” and that he was a bad king.
sapnap and george had a real point, and dream ignored them. he hadn’t addressed the things he had said that hurt them, and so they raised legitimate grievances with him! dream doesn’t treat their concerns as important, and talks down to george in particular.
ignoring the fact that sapnap and george were also hurting is kind of hypocritical. you’re right, “abandonment hurts you, no matter if the people have good reasons for it or not”. dream said the spirit thing before sapnap did any sort of real leaving him. and dream’s reasons were definitely not good.
i have no idea why you got the idea that george is so awful. he was walking around with his head down. the only one also calling him things like manipulative and a drama queen is, well, dream.
basically: (/hj)
george: :(
dream: you are attempting to emotionally manipulate me
butternut is a master of psychological manipulation
anyway
so sapnap, george and quackity felt betrayed there. they left, and went to mexican l’manburg to try and console george. and then dream shoots quackity and kills him, and tries to attack the others as well. it’s worth noting that quackity also had a reason to be upset at dream: dream’s treatment of l’manburg. dream then shows up and calls george a tyrant. dream never listens to what george says during this, he just continues saying what he already said. dream taking the kingship away from george hurt him more than letting him stay would have.
watching this is painful, because it’s making me realize just how much dream doesn’t actually care what his friends think! he says he cares, and he might think he cares, but then he calls them babies and liars and tyrants. his argument with george here reads like something awful. he’s using the excuse of “caring about him” in order to undermine and insult him, and take the moral high ground. dream essentially tells george that he didn’t make george king out of any respect for him, it was just random. he doesn’t treat his friends well during this scene. i don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to get angry.
when quackity, after sitting in silence for the entire conversation, says he disagrees, dream tells him that he’s just dumb. doesn’t wait to hear his reasons, doesn’t value his opinion, because dream is so sure that he’s right and he knows what’s best for the server, and by extension, everyone.
other interesting things: dream brings tommy into it again by saying he’s what causes all the problems on the server. dream tells quackity to think about what tubbo would think about him picking this fight. dream says that george would probably do anything he told him to do. his entire position is “you guys can think whatever you want, but it won’t change anything.” genuinely, tell me how this is them abandoning him? and when they do drift away later, tell me why they don’t have a reason to? dream doesn’t respect them! he takes their friendship for granted!
“would you consider it justified for all of tommy’s friends (even tubbo who he’s been close with for so long) to abandon him just because he’s said basically the same thing about the discs - like three times?”
thank you for bringing up the disk thing. do you really think that tommy and dream acted the same when saying that an item held more worth than their friends?
think about what the disks symbolize. control over tommy. tommy wants them back because they are a sign of dream having power over him! tommy doesn’t want his abuser having power over him! and yeah! it was a messed up thing for him to say to tubbo that the disks were worth more than him, but he apologized! he understood that what he said hurt tubbo, and he tried to rebuild the relationship! tommy took responsibility for what he said, and tried to be better. notice how afterwards, he was willing to sacrifice anything for the safety of his friends? notice how in the vault he told dream to take the disks and do whatever he wanted with them, when dream switched from threatening the disks to threatening the life of tubbo?
and what do the disks mean to dream? they mean power over tommy. the disks have no power over dream. they are a tool that he can use to hurt and control tommy. and he never apologized for this, because he wasn’t sorry. sapnap told dream that this hurt him, and all dream said was that he didn’t mean it. who is he lying to, then? tommy or sapnap? it was so important to dream that he had ultimate control over the life of someone else that he almost drove them to take their own life. i’m sorry, but this comparison sucks.
people gave dream a chance. people gave him a lot of chances. the disregard he showed for others is disgusting, especially towards his friends, and even more so towards those who he didn’t like. my problem is that though you repeat that you don’t “blame” others for what they did, you still hold them to more responsibility than you’re willing to hold him to, or at least that’s what it seems like. i’ve been investigating the other side through this whole process. and yeah, there are definitely places where i was wrong. but sometimes i do not understand, and maybe that means i should just give up on trying to understand those places. if other people can see things i can’t, maybe we agree to disagree.
i legitimately cannot see dream being the person who was treated the worst here, but let me know if i’m misrepresenting you.
i’m sorry that i sound angry, and i’m not really upset at you, but the comparison of what dream said and what tommy said set me off.
“no one having respect for him as a person”
people did respect dream, man. he was the leader of his faction. he had a lot of power. his friends trusted him to be a good friend to them. but he didn’t feel like he had an obligation to do that, yeah? and you only get respect if you give it, so they stopped respecting them because he hurt them. he didn’t learn any hard lessons about violence being the only way because he never stopped to consider another way. when faced with a problem, his options were for the problem to go away or he would make it go away: surrender or die.
during the stream where he sets up the walls with sapnap, his message is the same throughout: wipe them out. no mercy. burn their land to the ground, leave no survivors. there’s no love in war. children get hurt in war. this is a warning shot, he says, as he fires into their land. as sapnap burns down tubbo’s house and chat spams “no mercy”. they don’t show mercy because mercy is weak, and they are powerful.
one day i’m gonna write a thing that talks about the greater smp like how people talk about early l’manburg because oh boy
i’d like to see evidence of dream learning that violence is the only way, and only being able to protect himself through fighting. i don’t remember this happening, i remember him generally choosing violence as the first option.
“dream didn’t have an arising god complex.”
a god complex means more than just saying “i’m a god.” there was buildup because that’s how characters work. tommy was also trapped in the prison, and he didn’t suddenly get a god complex at the slightest bit of power, did he? the definition of a god complex is “an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility.” dream cannot admit when he is wrong. he feels as if he has a right to the control of the server, and that grows into a state of obsession. and when he’s taking tubbo and tommy down into the vault, he mocks them for thinking he was weak or that he didn’t think ahead.
once dream knew he had control over death, the complex reached its peak, and that’s when he actually admits it. characters that antagonize others already possess traits that contribute to their arc.
and hey, i know that cc!dream says his character is blocked off emotionally. i also know that he’s been given a lot of chances to apologize to people, to be sorry, to admit fault, even in small situations. did dream show remorse during exile? did dream sound like he was being “forced” to isolate and control tommy, or did he sound like an abusive parent scolding a kid for something? when dream beat tommy and tubbo and took them down to the vault, did he sound sorry? the thing about subtext is that it has to actually be there, no matter how quiet, at least a little bit. listen to dream arguing with quackity after george was dethroned and tell me he sees himself as anything other than right.
a few one off lines are not enough evidence to wipe out the rest of his character’s development.
he sounds sorry once he is faced with direct consequences, because that is the only time he is held responsible for his actions.
it’s also a weak argument to say that something is happening when, as you said, we don’t see his pov. it is fair to say that i don’t know if it’s not happening, and that’s a good point. cc!dream’s comments about his character being closed off emotionally can mean a lot of things. for instance, they could mean that his character is willing to do this to himself in order to get control. or it could mean something else entirely, i don’t know. basing an entire fact about a character off something we don’t see at all doesn’t tell us anything useful about the character, and i apologize for doing that.
i guess my reason for saying that was that i don’t see evidence of him trying to get better during pogtopia. if we don’t see signs of him being sorry or attempting to treat other people better, why should we assume that he was doing those things?
“yes, and none of c!dream’s “friends” ever did.”
dream’s friends supported him until he abandoned them and disrespected them. his time in the prison is a consequence of his time out of the prison, albeit an unfair one.
“dream didn’t hurt george.”
dream’s disrespect of george is what hurt him. dream didn’t apologize for it, he didn’t attempt to understand what george was feeling, and he didn’t look for a compromise. and yeah, it was beckerson in the vault. he had a space for mars, he just hadn’t collected it yet. so yes, dream did betray sapnap. if you have legitimate evidence of sapnap doing something that made dream actually upset, before the vault, i’d like to see it. (there might be something lol i’m sorry i’m Very Bad on his lore but from what i’ve investigated i didn’t find anything really important.)
i don’t think puffy saying “this person does bad things” is her dismissing their trauma. and the eggpire and her have both hurt each other. puffy isn’t the Trauma Designator of the server. if there’s an instance of her straight up saying that someone doesn’t have trauma then i missed it.
“she’s another one c!dream was attached to and who failed to ever reach out to him”
i don’t see evidence of this? there was the one stream where the relationship was established, but after that he never tried to seek her out. he doesn’t even talk about her. it’s not a failure from her to not reach out to him, if their connection is light at best. i honestly feel like she was more attached to him than he was to her.
“like she’s doing something extra by being a decent person.”
she’s saying he didn’t deserve to see her because he did bad things! she still cares about someone who has done bad things, but she recognizes that those things are bad. she’s saying the punishment for what he’s done should involve not seeing her, personally, and i think she should be able to make that decision? she doesn’t endorse the rest of his punishment, because she doesn’t know what it entails.
she helped him by thinking he was in the right. she helped him by even trying to understand him, when everyone else could not. she gave him the help that she could by being on his side, by being friendly to him, and after she realized he was wrong she could not do that because he was off preparing the vault! and she had other things to worry about! “could have” is useless because it can mean anything! tommy “could have” not burned george’s house down. would it have mattered, when dream already had it out for him? no!
dream took anyone being close to him for granted. he did not give anything back to them once he started going down the path. if he did something bad to them, and they were angry, that was it for him. he did not attempt to fix the bond, like other characters do when they hurt someone they care about.
“i never said anything negative about them other than describing things they did that had a negative effect.”
here’s my main point: we don’t know they had a negative effect.
you criticize the characters for not taking an action that we do not know the implications of. everyone could have been super nice and worried about dream and that could have changed nothing. that’s why i think the criticism is unwarranted.
their crime is inattention to a situation that some of them did not even know was happening. that’s like saying that techno is “responsible” for some of the pain of tommy’s exile, because he did nothing to stop it. that’s like saying that quackity or tommy “should have” removed the tnt from the button room under l’manburg.
i just don’t get the point of the criticism. because it can apply to any character in any situation, you know? we could say that eret taking back the kingship from george enabled dream into taking more control over his friends, and that eret should have stopped him. we could say that skeppy telling dream he was wrong about l’manburg pushed him further into the role of the bad guy. if you aren’t being negative about the characters, then why bring it up in the first place?
“truly believe they did all those things” they didn’t do anything. if you’re talking about the “actual consequences and effect it had on him as a character”, you have to look at what affects his character.
we can say “sapnap should not have said this to dream”. because that is something sapnap actually did, directly to dream’s face, and it is something that visibly affected dream. considering the conditions of the prison, it is an inhumane thing to say. that’s something i would call reasonable to consider when analyzing dream’s character.
but puffy talking to herself, writing her own thoughts and reactions down? that does not impact dream in any way! and i think puffy thinking internally that dream is a bad person (when she has been given adequate reason to think so) has a lot less impact on Real Plot Events than the stuff that dream actually did.
what is her “fault” here? what harm did she do? what am i excusing? what did she do wrong, and how is the effect of her specifically visible in dream’s actions? he hasn’t mentioned her in months, and it’s my perspective that if he cared, we would know.
if a tree falls in the forest when nobody is around, does it make any noise?
(the person i was responding to linked a thread about how the prison isn’t helping dream and how puffy and sapnap saying he deserves it is inhumane)
that thread doesn’t actually seem to be assigning any fault to puffy, it’s just saying that hearing that kind of thing hurts.
(also, the person who wrote the thread saying “i told you so” is going to have nobody to tell it to. we all already know dream is going to be violent when he gets out, because he told tommy he would hunt down and take revenge on the things he loves. but he’s not going to be violent because puffy didn’t visit him.)
“another person he cared about who didn’t prove to care about him enough to stop him from spiralling or try help at all.”
how did puffy not care about him? what did she do before the vault that showed that? how did she specifically abandon him, by actions of her own will and not of consequences of his? for supposedly caring about her, dream did pretty much nothing to show it.
“if “they don’t owe him anything” is your base argument against someone being hurt via being left by people they care about over and over again until they’re utterly alone with no support system and unhealthy mindsets, we might have to agree to disagree”
we would disagree if that was my point, but it’s not. because that’s not what the characters did. they didn’t all abandon him, as i’ve said. he says that he cut ties with them, but if you say he’s lying when he says that you can disregard it, i guess. and five to six people are definitely not responsible for him. again, you’re critical of them for an action they didn’t take, and in some cases it was impossible for them to take like with tommy, who certainly didn’t abandon him, as hard as he tried to.
“his (dream’s) manipulation is the clumsiest thing i’ve ever seen”
i mean i don’t really find it funny that dream was “bad” at manipulation. and clearly it was powerful enough to work on multiple people, and if he was that ineffective at it it wouldn’t have worked. but i understand what you’re saying, although i disagree with your take on wilbur.
it’s true that wilbur’s smart, but this is again saying things about stuff we can’t prove. if you look at the context of wilbur’s actions next to everyone else’s, they seem pretty tame. and he can play a morally grey character without the intent being that the character was seriously manipulative all along. although i guess it’s nice to think that you’ve solved the code, if “solving the code” means “the majority of everyone else is wrong” then you may want to take a step back.
i think the principle of occam’s razor sort of applies here, and especially applies later to the conversion between dream and wilbur. unless there is strong, strong evidence for a theory that sort of goes against stuff, there may be a better explanation. i’ve scrapped like fifty theories because of this dude hskhdksjsthe things i said at the start about tommy and wilbur’s grabs for power not being serious still do apply, and so does the fact that at the start of the roleplay, the cc’s didn’t see their characters as that separate from themselves. i think it would be kind of weird for cc!wilbur’s intent to be genuine manipulation of his actual friends all along, especially when he wasn’t playing it as a bit.
“that’s precisely what he did and how he got them to side with him in the war.”
nope. he didn’t tell anyone they “needed” to to anything. anyone who joined the country joined of their own free will, and nobody joined during the war, just before and after.
wilbur didn’t really “recruit” tommy so much as they were on a team of causing small arguments. wilbur joined and he and tommy went to go scam people together, while tommy told him about the various other little schemes he had been running. and i don’t really think he was intending to do a real takeover, which is why i called it “weak”. the man told people that potions give you diarrhea. does that sound like the work of a mastermind? no, because it’s the self proclaimed “crime boy”. and that “drug empire” got shut down pretty quick for something that was supposed to last a long time.
“just put “revolution” instead of “business” as a guise of what he was actually doing.”
l’manburg was not the drug empire under a different name. l’manburg was about separation from the greater smp, admittedly because they felt that being stopped from selling drugs was a bad thing, but then they pretty much completely dropped the drugs and the empire throughout the wall vod.
so when he was recruiting people like fundy, he was doing it with the intent of getting them to make drugs with him. he says nothing about dream when fundy joins his drug empire. and yeah, he lied to him originally, but it didn’t work. fundy visited the van and saw through wilbur (and tommy)’s story, and then he decided to join, on his own. because he wanted to make drugs.
a quote from the wall vod:
“we’re starting a revolution, not a war.”
there was no targeted hatred towards dream until he approached them. and i would say the most “evidence” that wilbur was trying to go after dream in any way is the infamous “what’s tyrannical mean” moment. the thing about that moment is that taking a single moment and using it to define an entire period is unfair. it’s not like that’s a turning point, and after that they solely go after dream. they don’t. i agree that you have to watch the actions of wilbur, and his actions at the time were geared towards becoming independent and progressing the condition of l’manburg.
wilbur is honest with eret when they join that they are committing crimes. eret joins because “haha americans bad”. meanwhile, dream is in chat telling eret that there are “three defectors from the kingdom”.
“the only reason people disbelieve this is not because it doesn’t align with canon, but because they assume he’s lying for the sole reason that it doesn’t align with the way they see canon.”
if what revivedbur said agreed with canon, people wouldn’t be pointing out that it doesn’t. watch back the hot dog stream, the wall stream, the first war stream, even the stream after that when niki joins. look at how wilbur speaks, and also look at how he acts. it does not match up with all of what revivedbur says.
early wilbur is naive. he thinks he’s doing the right thing, so he therefore concludes the people against him are wrong. the only fighting back that l’manburg does before war is declared is killing alyssa (and this was tommy’s idea, wilbur was discouraging killing her), because they thought she set the fire. once she told them she didn’t, they gave her back the stuff they thought they had. tubbo still had her pickaxe, but didn’t realize. and for this? the people of the greater smp hunted him down, trapped him in a box, and killed him as well as killing tommy, who tried to save tubbo.
wilbur scolded tommy for killing alyssa. wilbur wanted to focus on building the nation, on declaring independence, and actively ignored the other side. he writes the declaration and he believes in everything it stands for! half the things in there are things that the other people of l’manburg yelled out, that he wrote in as they were being fired on by the greater smp. it comes from all the people.
the declaration of war from the greater smp pretty much says “sometimes you just gotta kill some people, you know?”
i am not disagreeing with you that after the first war, wilbur fell into corruption. it’s implied greatly that this is partially a consequence of the first war, and also partially stems from his fierce protectiveness of l’manburg.
also, if you’re saying that you have never and will never believe wilbur, i would urge you to re-examine that. it’s hard to avoid bias when you refuse to take most things that someone says as truth. i am also curious how you came to this conclusion as you began to watch the smp (if you never believed him at all) and who’s perspective you were watching.
“according to his actions and all known laws of logic” according to the streams and vods that very much still exist, and his actions in them, no, he wasn’t lying since the beginning. did he tell lies? yes, everyone did. was he being untruthful about his devotion to l’manburg when he took arrows for it and died for it? no. it’s pretty clear to see when you watch the vod. his actions speak louder than his words.
so no, it doesn’t make sense for him to be lying since the beginning. it doesn’t make sense that revivedbur’s ideals are a switch from how he was even right before he died, so we cannot trust his memory and his morals to remain intact! the man was alone for thirteen years, speaking of torture.
“he thought l'manberg his and no one else’s, a weapon of power for him to use however he pleases. unlike dream who destroyed himself bit by bit trying to take back what he cares about, because it was not power, but people - wilbur saw no more worth in it and destroyed it instead.”
hmm. i’ll come back to this later.
a point- not everything cc!wilbur says about his character is negative.
a lot of his commentary on his character came after his death, so it encompasses his spiral. i will again suggest that you listen to “eight” by sleeping at last. it’s true he can play a morally complex character, because he does, but he does not play an intentional antagonist the entire time, even in “secret”.
“i was just talking about how hypocritical and downright ridiculous his later accusations are, which you didn’t address.”
how are his later accusations hypocritical? wilbur calls him a tyrant in the moment, yeah. wilbur thinks that he should be able to do whatever he wants, and since it’s the dream smp, he assumes dream is the leader. dream never contradicts this, by the way. wilbur writes in the declaration of independence that “in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one to dissolve the bonds which bind us. disregarding of this truth is nothing short of tyranny.” so that’s what he considers tyranny. when he got stopped from selling drugs and tommy got arrested, he didn’t yell “tyranny”.
mistreatment of citizens by authority and denial of independence is tyranny.
dream and the people of the greater smp hurt and attack the people of l’manburg throughout the wall stream. importantly, since they denied l’manburg independence, the people they were firing and attacking were their own citizens in their eyes. mistreatment of citizens is cruel. upon hearing that l’manburg existed, they became even more tyrannical. thus when wilbur writes this in the book, as they are being fired on, he believes this to be true because it is.
“despite there being no evidence” watch the wall vod. think about the definition of tyranny, and even the different definitions of tyranny.
“a capitalistic empire on dream’s land” so wilbur did have reason for thinking dream was the leader, yes? because it was his land? his “house”? how dream said they were taking back the land that was rightfully theirs? how he called them “traitors to the kingdom”? ignoring the fact that once again, wilbur did not say anything negative towards dream until dream showed up and insulted l’manburg.
wilbur’s form of lying and deception for the drug empire was the norm for the server at the time. we don’t see him pulling this sort of exaggerated bit once he gets into l’manburg, because he’s idealistic and he really believes in it. if you watch tommy’s stream where wilbur first proposes the country, he jokingly says the reason he’s making it is because “americans ruin bits”. also during that stream, tommy asks if they’re making a drug empire, and wilbur says that no, they’re making a nation where drugs are legal.
“didn’t even do that much” hmm. no, i’m pretty sure dream and the people of the greater smp did do the stuff wilbur accused them of. one, he wasn’t directly accusing dream, (because. his problem wasn’t with dream specifically.) and two, the things he said in the declaration did happen?
“they have robbed us.”
to be fair everyone on the server did that lol
“imprisoned us.”
tommy was imprisoned for the drugs and for other things he was involved in, and tubbo was trapped and murdered for a thing he didn’t even know he had.
“threatened us.”
they were fired on multiple times when building l’manburg, they were threatened with consequences for the drug stuff, they told them in pretty clear terms that they were prepared to kill them instead of letting them be independent. the day of the war, dream and sapnap burned down all the trees around l’manburg and lavacast walls around it, saying it was a “warning”.
“killed many of our men.”
again, true. tommy and tubbo in particular died a lot during this time.
so since these things really did happen, how is wilbur lying about them?
“the people he was accusing of being tyrannical were very selective”
one, he accused sapnap of being an american, and it was the americans that were going for them. you don’t need to protect people that aren’t being hurt. most of his reasoning for “no americans” during this time was that anti-mask protests were happening in america, and he was making fun of them. two, the others imprisoned tommy, which does not count as “self defense in an anarchist society”. they accepted tubbo because he was european, and because he was willing to work for the nation like the rest of them. sapnap just wanted a drug dealer.
“dream’s “no factions” thing he had going on also included no government by default, showcased by him having problems with people starting countries.”
if there was no government, why did dream never point this out when wilbur said he was seceding? the server is dream’s faction! he doesn’t want “no factions”, he wants only his faction. dream refers to the server multiple times as a nation, and even a kingdom. anarchist societies don’t have prisons. the prison and the police is a system. if you have an anarchist society, but two specific people are going around arresting people, them going “oh but there’s no government” doesn’t take away the fact that they’re creating a hierarchy, using their own power? they also never claimed that there was no government.
everything that dream said later in the conversation with skeppy also lines up with this. ignoring the fact that there was a monarchy established because it “didn’t have any real power” is disregarding the fact that one, it was there, and two, that there was someone around with enough power to establish it in the first place. i don’t know how to say this any clearer. anarchist places do not have kings.
and anarchy is not the only thing that fits. it wasn’t designed to be a geopolitical drama, they just made the mistake of letting wilbur soot onto the server. so they didn’t need to have a name for the system, because the system was “do whatever you want”, including establishing authority.
“dream had all the reasons to believe they were aggressive and was fully justified in declaring war.”
dream didn’t declare war because alyssa was attacked. he had done stuff to them before that happened, and they got back all of her stuff (again, not by asking and trying to work it out, but by kidnapping someone who genuinely believed they were innocent and killing them as they begged for help.) dream started the official conflict because he declared war. he also started the unofficial conflict. he didn’t think they were aggressive, he thought they were weak.
“if he (wilbur) thought he was being mistreated he could just stop trying to mistreat others”
what, because he had any sort of power? he did stop mistreating others. l’manburg legitimately did nothing to intentionally hurt anyone, and tommy killing alyssa doesn’t count because that was his decision and revenge was already paid out for that. so wilbur stopped scamming people, built the walls to contain his country (he said that they needed nothing outside the walls at some point) and then was attacked multiple times. his mistreatment didn’t stop.
“it was supposed to be his l'manberg.”
wilbur didn’t destroy it because it was supposed to be his and it got away from him, that’s why he held the election: to try and restore peace through attempting to rig the election. he destroyed it because “the thing i built this nation for doesn’t exist anymore”, meaning the freedom it originally granted to its citizens was gone under schlatt. meaning the policy of no violence and using words was ruined. if the thing he built this nation for was power, this would make no sense. he could have taken power so easily. he passed off the presidency.
“something worth having power over” is something important. it is something that can be good for lots of people, and the power over it is what makes it safe. it’s worth having power over because when others, like schlatt, take that power, it is no longer safe.
violence and tyranny had become so much a part of l’manburg that wilbur felt the freedom and peace was gone. so when he blows it up, and says “my l’manburg”, he means it can no longer be used for evil. “my unfinished symphony, forever unfinished”. he saves it for himself by destroying it. so yes, he is being selfish, but not to ruin it for other people. he takes it into his own hands to weed out the fighting, and by doing so takes himself with it. his vision was never complete, because the wars had taught him that the only true freedom, the only true victory (“i won.”) for him was in death. (and then that turned out to be wrong.)
there’s a reddit post that cc!wilbur approved
that explains this a little better than i can, and cc!wilbur commented on it “any truers???” so i think it can be counted as reliable.
this full quote from cc!wilbur about his character (from his hey and stuff podcast) is very interesting. i’ll transcribe it here:
“i decided i was going to make a breaking bad style roleplay, where me and tommy would be drug dealers. and uh, one thing lead to another and i’m the president of a nation losing it due to my own insolence and uh, short sighted naivety. basically disregard for my fellow citizens who i claim to love so much. and a, and a dark, twisted understanding of what is possession. and what is, what is my right.”
i like this quote a lot because it highlights the initial traits that caused his spiral. it also places him as kind of similar to dream. the reason he lost the presidency is that he got too cocky. and the reason his spiral was so selfish is that it was all he could see— when his earlier vision of freedom was shattered by the first war, he didn’t know how to adapt and so became attached to power as it now felt like the only way to keep what mattered to him.
this is emphasized in his conversation with quackity during his second lore stream: that there was a drastic change between the person who made l’manburg and the person running for president. this quote matches up very well with the election arc. wilbur’s motives were different before the election, and they were different after.
once he had the freedom that he wanted, he became scared of losing it and that is what pushed him down. “if i can’t have it, no one can” is on the surface about the power, but the lament for what he once had (freedom in a country without tyranny) is there. that’s why he became so power-oriented. if he did not have control of l’manburg, it could be used to go against his original vision and it would be better off gone.
another good piece of information is cc!wilbur’s comment on his dnd alignment post, where he says this:
“wilbur is on the border of chaotic and neutral evil. wilbur, in his chaotic sense, is a crazy man who wants to blow up his old nation and kill his friends. but, more realistically, in his neutral sense, wilbur is the archetype of a man who had great power and who lost it all due to his own poor choices and negligence who sees destruction as his ratification.”
note the “realistically”.
he feels as if he owes it to l’manburg at the end to blow it up, and he didn’t mind taking himself with it as he thought that nobody cared about him anymore and he didn’t have any more to give.
(related to this, in the dnd alignment post, cc!wilbur places season 1 dream as chaotic evil and says his only motive is chaos. firstly, this would only apply to season one, and although cc!wilbur was working with cc!dream and everyone else to write the plot here, i wonder why he says this instead of saying anything else about dream’s motives. this seems to disagree pretty severely with what you think, but it also disagrees with what even i think about dream during this time.)
revivedbur comes back and has plans because he regrets his past. he hates that he gave up that easily. and he could absolutely lie about his past actions! there is no reason to ignore the contents of an entire war because someone who was alone for thirteen years says it!
“shouldn’t have it” doesn’t mean he was lying when he said he wanted it. he was just wrong, which he knew when he blew up l’manburg and that’s part of why he did it.
“they said they “fought with words”, like that doesn’t sound like a peaceful solution, more like a different approach, and it was because that is what they did”
they said the words thing a lot of times, and most of the time it was used as a “tommy don’t attack that person.” and “fighting with words” is arguing, it is replacing the trauma of real battle with talking it out. l’manburg did stick very closely to their motto of words over violence. look at the contents of the first war.
and once war was declared, wilbur was enthusiastic for it. sounds suspicious from someone claiming to not want war, right? he said it was a chance for them to prove themselves, to prove they could rule themselves. he also said that if they could defend themselves it would be proof. he never went “time to attack them”, and when he said he didn’t want a war in the past he meant that he didn’t want to start one. his being enthusiastic about the war ties into his naivety about running a country. it was also an acceptance in a way, no? it meant that the greater smp saw them as something worth declaring war on.
and it’s heartbreaking seeing him so excited to prove himself, because we know that the experience of the war is what lead to his spiral and his cynicism as president. we know that a few weeks later, he’s going to be crying into his pillow every night.
for the clip (the “something worth having power over and then you get killed by your dad” clip), i kind of don’t know what to say. i don’t think this is a clear condemnation of the entirety of l’manburg’s beginnings, but i do think that i was probably reaching a bit with trying to interpret it. there are definitely a lot of ways to see that, though.
no, he showed it in the first war and he clearly said it. i don’t think somebody who wants to mess with dream is going to not even think about him until he shows up, and even after then largely ignore him until he declares war.
“yes, it was worth something to wilbur, and that worth was power.”
question: power over what? power for what purpose? how did he use that power?
if it was only worth having power over, then why did he give it up? why didn’t he just kill schlatt in the first place? again i think the reddit post addresses a lot of this. original l’manburg was worth more to wilbur than power because he was willing to surrender when his life and his friend’s lives were threatened, and he told tommy it was not worth it to enter a duel and sacrifice his own life for it. after the war, he cared about power over it in order to keep peace, and then he realized that his own desire for power caused him to abandon his morals and he attempted to destroy it all.
“the greater smp did represent anarchy and peace.”
i just don’t think the ideals of the early smp line up with anarchy, and especially not dream’s actions later. he believes in forced peace, and unity under his terms although that belief is more gradual.
“see you tell me you didn’t fall for propaganda and then say this.”
it’s not “falling for propaganda” to watch the streams and interpret them. “propaganda” is defined as an attempt to spread information, often of a misleading nature. it’s what wilbur used during his presidential campaign, it’s what everyone used during the election. i do not base my opinion of his character off things that have been said about him after the fact. i watched the content when it happened.
so what about the facts that one, he wanted peace at the start, and two, that he cared about protecting his nation and the people he cared about is propaganda? it is information that i believe to be true based on my own analyzing of his actions during that time.
wilbur never says this as an attempt to lie to anyone. he wanted peace if it meant he could have freedom, but he would not attack anyone for freedom, he would defend it once he had established it. he wasn’t trying to establish an empire after the drug van stream (he says this in the vod where he discusses his plans for l’manburg with tommy) and the actions of the greater smp were tyrannical. what happened is that later, after the first war, he lost faith in peace because people continued to attack him!
“he did create division for his own benefit the way i see it.”
can you explain the “benefit” that division would give him? because like i said, his goal was his own personal freedom. he wasn’t attempting to divide people, he was reacting to mistreatment, whether perceived or real. and more often than not, people asked to join him, he didn’t try to convince them.
“yeah wilbur said it genuinely to tubbo when he first brought him armor”
as i was going through the old vods, i did find the origin of that quote (the quote where wilbur says “we go in with no armor and then stab them in the back” or something along those lines)! there’s something funny about it though. notice how he says it and then never does anything about it? and how nobody from l’manburg acts on it? because you have to look at his actions, something you emphasized that i agree with. they have more weight than his words. he also said “wanna kiss” to dream, so i don’t think this really counts as “proof” of an ulterior motive, because he said a lot of things.
“you see a pattern already?”
the “pattern” i see of his reactions to conflict in his nation is that he didn’t want to assert control in order to oppress people, he wanted to assert control to keep the peace, by rigging the election so that he had “legitimate” authority. was it a hypocritical? yeah! it reminds me of what dream was doing, too: placing his goal of peace over his wish for freedom of everyone.
the difference is that dream didn’t have any reserves about “starting an army and asserting dominance over his own people because they didn’t respect his authority and he was irritated by it”. weird that that can be used to describe dream as well, huh? and before it can be used to describe wilbur?
this is also after the first war, where wilbur learned a very important lesson! and it’s right before he realizes he’d become what he had tried to destroy. the other person who acts like this never realized this, though. it’s because he was never trying to destroy it. just saying.
“the friendships inside of it could’ve existed without, and would’ve probably been better off without being stained by war”
wilbur did not consider making l’manburg as a severing of relationships between the two nations. he even expresses neutrality towards some members of the greater smp. wilbur didn’t “make people think” they needed l’manburg, he saw it as a thing to devote yourself to, an ideology. he did not force others to think this way, although he encouraged it. people ended up sacrificing a lot for that (against their will sometimes), and so they became attached to it.
“the original dream smp was this but actually true instead of just being a front.”
ah yes, the dream smp with absolutely no hierarchies. nothing like mister “my house” at all. no “my land”, no “my server”, no “the king has no power”, no “it’s the dream smp”. /s
“wilbur didn’t fear for anyone’s safety”
hmm, no, wilbur did fear for everyone’s safety. you know, when they were being attacked continuously throughout the war? and when he finally surrendered because they were being threatened and killed?
“the dream smp was already safe”
dream and sapnap need better ways to “keep the server safe” than by blowing up people who wanted to go off and do their own thing and posed no threat to the greater server.
i don’t know how to provide “evidence” that dream and the others attacked l’manburg? the evidence is the fact that they did. again, wilbur’s initial goal was not conflict with the greater smp, it was emancipation. when tubbo was taken hostage and killed, shot at, robbed multiple times of materials it had taken him hours to get, and had his old house burned down simply because he was part of l’manburg, those were the reasons that tubbo ever fired a shot at them in the first place!
when wilbur lead his people out on the first day of the war, it was to negotiate. they dodged the arrows and went to the embassy, where they were then trapped and driven back into tommy’s house. it was then that they fought back. self defense. i don’t know what else to tell you.
“trying to end the war as soon as he could” is kind of misleading, because it implies that dream hated the violence. he just wanted to win as soon as he could. he didn’t care what he had to do to win it. no mercy.
the dream smp was not freedom because when you try to leave freedom, it doesn’t hunt you down and try to destroy you. anarchy doesn’t call you a traitor when you leave. and yeah, dream was real friendly to tommy when he continued the disk war when it first settled. and of course when your friends join a different nation, the most logical course of action is to murder them repeatedly! /s
the definition of anarchy includes personal freedom, the exact thing wilbur wanted. anarchy does not include authority, it is firmly opposed to it. i think i would place the early greater smp as more of a stateless society, if i had to put a name on it (again, i am extremely wary to do that because it wasn’t written as anything with a name. this is also a mediocre take that i don’t really believe because dream had his own faction.). a stateless society is one of the goals of anarchism, but does not encompass the entire belief.
dream’s main motivation was that he didn’t want anyone being independent. it didn’t matter who was leading it.
and i’m sorry, but you can’t just take away evidence by saying “he was lying” when there is no proof he is? if you take this conversation at face value it makes more sense! (this is about the conversation between wilbur and dream right before the “independence or death” scene)
“both sides had their losses and were ready to harm the other” what did the greater smp lose. its people? its land? there was other land, and the people could still remain friends. some of them did. dream even says before this that yeah, l’manburg is losing. and wilbur here is attempting to downplay that loss, claiming they’re on even ground because that’s what he wants to happen. he is trying to appear stronger than he really is. he’s bluffing, but it doesn’t work.
i don’t like saying “nobody’s the victim” here when one side was getting absolutely whaled on by the other. wilbur has the ability to be genuine, and he does. if he was trying to “play” the victim, he would exaggerate the damage his side had suffered. his words and his actions match up, and this is a pretty different circumstance from him doing a bit. he is a victim. that’s just straight up true.
i’m not surprised that you think this way, as you’ve said you were on dream’s side since the start, but i’d like to once again ask you to examine where you got these perceptions.
dream offering them “chances” was just offering them surrender. that’s not merciful, and it’s not fair, either. and he may not have wanted to hurt them, but he sure didn’t mind doing it. wilbur wasn’t sewing some kind of anti-dream propaganda in his nation while the battle was going on, the hatred for dream came from the fact that he was attacking all of them.
“colonize” is a bad word choice for what l’manburg was. nobody was living on that land before they got there. the land should have belonged to nobody, so why did dream get so mad about “his” land being taken? what about that specific area was so important to him, when he did have the ability to visit?
wilbur was pacifist, he was not the instigator, again i have to say i can’t offer up proof if you’re convinced that he was lying. when he fought back later it was in self defense. please watch the vods. and recognize that wilbur’s actions election era are consequences of his experiences revolution era.
i genuinely don’t understand what you mean by comparing this to exile. please rephrase your point. if you’re comparing what dream did to tommy to wilbur trying to stop dream from hurting him and his people more i have to say that’s a... questionable take. it’s probably a bad idea to make exile comparisons if you’re going to use them to victim-blame, as that’s very antithetical to exile as a whole and kid of ironic.
“i mean, what other choice was there?”
no, dream had a lot of choices. he did not offer them a peaceful way out. he declared war and then he attacked. it was then that he told them many times to surrender. and no, wilbur didn’t push them to go and die, evidenced again by the times he used himself as a distraction so that they could run, and that he didn’t want tommy to do the duel but ultimately respected his decision and his freedom.
“dream constantly asked them to give up instead of fighting.”
dream has a responsibility to not attack kids. dream also has a responsibility to attempt any sort of peaceful negotiation. tubbo was boxed and murdered before war was declared, and tubbo personally had done straight up nothing to the people of the greater smp, and he didn’t even know why he died until tommy saw that alyssa’s pickaxe was mixed in with his stuff.
if wilbur claimed to wish to prevent violence, and then he did, or at least attempted to, i don’t know why you think it’s untrue. calling someone a rude name is not equal to murder. “verbally violent” means pretty much nothing and was coming from both sides.
(this next part is about the “let me be your vassal” scene in pogtopia)
“there’s a theory wilbur legitimately thinks dream selfish”
i mean, yeah. i think that kind of sums it up. wilbur was appealing to dream’s personal goals. i don’t see how he was shut down though. he already helped pogtopia, so him being asked to further help someone from pogtopia shows that they trusted him enough to tell him the plan.
i’ve watched the clip a lot of times and i think that the meaning can be ambiguous. i am using dream’s other actions during that time to determine how much of an effect i think it had on him. i don’t think he got “shut down” in any sort of meaningful way here.
“he didn’t seem to hold even that against him as he tried to help get back l’manberg with him.”
if dream didn’t hold the disk thing against tommy then, he sure decided to get mad about it later (he brings it up when arguing with quackity), despite the fact that he had also re-opened the conflict in the past.
“i believe they (dream and tommy) had genuinely been friends once.”
sure, i think they were friends before dream did what he did with the disks, and allies during early pogtopia. dream still decided to switch sides and team with manburg because schlatt offered him the book. this is, ironically, dream abandoning tommy.
“he has a sense of responsibility (not control) over the people on his smp.”
i think it can be responsibility and control. most of the responsibility is misguided, and lots of it is just actual control. i don’t know where you’re getting a lot of this.
and i do not know where you got that his fatal flaw was caring too much? he “cares” in the way of having control! he doesn’t care about the well being of others as long as he thinks he’s right. i’m just saying that he sure could have walked away, because he did just that later when he sided with schlatt. it’s not a speculation about his character when it’s something that he did.
him walking away did not entail complete surrender to wilbur. there were a lot of other things he could have done, but i don’t want to get into “could have”’s as i don’t really think there’s a point. wilbur was attempting to convince him, yeah, but that didn’t mean it was true. we know that wilbur was lying about wanting ambition.
also, i don’t think dream was allied with pogtopia because he liked them or he was trying to be better or anything. he said in “tyrant” that it’s because schlatt was worse, and wilbur didn’t have any ambition to expand.
“maybe you misunderstood something i said, but no, he definitely didn’t.”
okay, so since dream didn’t think wilbur was a villain, wilbur was not “pressuring him” into becoming one by helping him. my point was that dream didn’t think that, and wilbur didn’t care. sorry for not making that clear, i was asking a rhetorical question.
(i said here that “someone calling someone else out for hurting them is not the same thing as villanizing them,” and they responded with this)
“yeah, they are. and dream was villanized.”
oh boy.
vilify: to utter slanderous and abusive statements against, to defame.
(i probably should have been saying vilify instead of villainize because they mean the same thing but i straight up did not know it was a word, sorry lol)
slanderous means false and malicious. abusive means offensive and insulting. defamation is things that are not true.
if somebody says, “this guy punched me.” that would not be vilifying them. it is a true statement with a neutral tone. if they add “he is a bad person”, that could possibly be seen as abusive, as it is insulting, but the point of vilifying someone is that you are making them out to be someone they’re not. it involves the use of lies and continuous exaggerated language. slanderous and abusive. abusive only is not enough to classify something as vilifying.
someone reacting to something dream did by calling him a name is not vilifying him. it is true that he did the thing, and it is also true that the person saying it believes it. it is rare that someone criticizes him without real reason or goes overboard (the person who really does this as far as i can remember is tommy), and when tommy does so it is almost always reciprocated. so we have dream and tommy constantly vilifying each other, and other people saying negative things about dream and sometimes vilifying him, if they lie about it. he sometimes vilifies them.
my point is that vilification is not wilbur telling niki, “dream burnt tubbo’s house down”, despite the fact that he calls dream a bad guy. it’s not slanderous because it is true. dream assisted sapnap with the act. vilification is not tommy explaining to ranboo what was happening during exile, or telling dream that dream makes him worse. “someone calling someone out for hurting them” implies truth, and it doesn’t necessarily imply abusive language, but it doesn’t matter because it’s true.
maybe we were going off different definitions of vilify. but when we’re accusing characters who are victims of abuse and manipulation, we need to be careful with what we accuse them of.
anyway
wilbur saying he wanted to use the tommys of the world was left in the drug van stream. tommy himself was pushing a lot of the “dream bad” stuff because he had more experience with him. when tommy was confused during those two scenes (vassal scene and revivedbur calling dream his hero)it was because he believed that wilbur respected him, and wilbur working with or idolizing someone who had hurt tommy in the past was a contradiction to that belief. wilbur does not question tommy’s anger during the vassal scene because he doesn’t care that dream is bad, and when he is revived he either does not believe it or does not want to acknowledge it. revivedbur cares a whole lot more about power for the sake of power than wilbur ever did.
again, tommy isn’t stupid. he has his own reasons for not liking dream, and the disconnect comes from a place of trusting wilbur.
by the way, wilbur left the vc before saying that tommy didn’t care. he was talking to himself (and chat). and he was more fearful that tommy was leaving than angry. plus, he didn’t actually force tommy to give up his house: there was miscommunication between them and the embassy was the power tower in the end. wilbur just wanted confirmation that tommy would spend time in l’manburg. it’s true that he went about it in a bad way, though.
he didn’t push patriotism onto them, they were also excited about the country. there were other scenes beside the tyrant scene, and the amount of times wilbur had to tell tommy to shut up about how great the country is is a lot higher than the one time he had them call dream a tyrant.
true, that scene (scene where wilbur asserts his authority as president) is before pogtopia. it’s also after the war for independence. i am not saying that wilbur should have said any of that stuff. i’m just pointing out that it wasn’t always like that.
also i do not really see “you’re never gonna be president” as a taunt or manipulation or anything. i think wilbur genuinely believed that having tommy in charge of the country would one, get them into more conflicts, and two, mess up tommy mentally. being the president sucked and wilbur knew that. wilbur was not kind to tommy. but a lot of stuff that’s pointed at as manipulative is pretty clearly wilbur’s own paranoia spilling over in a desire to protect tommy, ie saying that tubbo would betray them. wilbur genuinely thought that and he was trying to warn tommy.
“tommy, when i said you’d never be president, it wasn’t a challenge. it’s true. you’re never going to be president.”
tommy’s life has been hard, that’s true. not disagreeing with you there. but not every adult has been using him the whole time. and if you’re looking for fault, i would personally look at the guy who killed him three times first, just saying. other things had impacts but there’s a clear scale.
“tommy formed an attachment to them as a result of the disc war, not the other way around.”
so yeah, initially it was a shallow trade: the disks for the armor. once that conflict was resolved, and tommy apologized, that should have been the end of it, yeah? especially since tommy now had a stronger connection to the disks? that would have been nice.
the problem is that dream took them back for no reason. because he did, he went back and dug up tommy’s whole front yard and spawned months of conflict after. having “leverage” over someone like that is kinda messed up! it’s not like tommy was going around committing mass murder every tuesday, he got in scraps with other people on the server who also committed petty crimes. so i can’t really blame tommy for wanting them back, even though he stole them.
and if dream didn’t care about the disks, why did he later use it as “proof” that tommy caused all the trouble on the server? if they were so worthless to him that he gave them to skeppy, why did it matter that tommy stole them?
i don’t know what you mean about this being the only way dream could control people. the amount of genuine fear other characters felt when he logged on was there for a long time. he held a lot of power on the server, and a lot of his control was physical, evidenced by exile in particular but also the wars.
when he did ultimately use connections to control people, that was still a bad thing.
“his friend’s house got burnt down and he wanted the person who did it to be held accountable?”
okay, george’s house got burned down. do you remember the initial punishment that dream proposed? probation for tommy until he was eighteen. and when dream was arguing with his friends, he pointed out that the only reason l’manburg was being held hostage for tommy’s crime was that tommy was involved in the government. he said that if tommy hadn’t been involved in the government, he probably would have just hunted him down and killed him.
also, someone responding to this pointed out that dream was trying to frame tommy for things at the time. dream was intentionally creating other conflict in order to get to tommy. dream did not care about the house. he burnt down other people’s houses.
that’s not “holding someone accountable”. that’s not even close.
“he was taught this from experience”
the leather from the horse was used to blackmail him after he had already started doing that to people. you know how tommy mimicks him? that’s what was going on (still bad that he did it but like. come on.) so that may have been the push that caused dream to cut his own connections (so that nobody could ever do that to him again, and he would have no chance of failure), but it didn’t just happen to him for no reason: it was a behavior he taught someone else.
“he did genuinely think he was a villain before the war”
tommy called dream a lot of stuff before the war, and most of it was unprompted by wilbur. a lot of it was also, like you said, two friends joking around. just because wilbur taught him a new word (he didn’t really tell him what it meant though) doesn’t mean he was manipulated into using it all the time or something. and i’m pretty sure tommy got a decent definition of tyranny later, when the greater smp decided to attack l’manburg before anything went down.
“it’s just a character acknowledging what people who looked deeper into the narrative already knew.”
what i’m saying is that narratively, wilbur has an extremely good reason to be biased right now. taking anything he says as truth doesn’t solidify an interpretation as truth. there has to be enough evidence to actually back the entire thing up in the first place, and i’m just not seeing “wilbur was always going for power and division” as solidified by his actions during the first war.
and again, tommy’s not stupid, and the entire time tommy is yelling at him! tommy knows something is off! if people also in the story are saying “this isn’t right”, i feel like they’d know? tommy was also part of l’manburg, he has an opinion too. so when he says “we founded l’manburg because we knew dream was the bad guy”, he’s talking about why he did it. and he brings up a good point: “you say you did it to stick it to the man, but you’re idolizing dream, who is the man”. (paraphrased i don’t know his exact words but this was his point) this shows that wilbur’s motives have changed, even from what revivedbur will say.
(they linked three twitter threads here. i don’t know if relinking them here is a good idea as the whole point of this separate post is to disconnect the two sides, but the threads were by dr3amofagame on twitter, for reference purposes. i’m not going to link the independent threads but i think people can tell which ones i was responding to.
if this is wrong to say who made them please let me know, i do not know how Any of these websites work. if you’ve read this far, please don’t try to like,,, look up who any of these people are (especially the person i was debating with. don’t do that /srs) and send anything bad to them. that’s the whole point of this separate post. if anyone sends negativity directly towards people because of this post i’ll bite you)
that first analysis has some Opinions. oh man.
i don’t know man i’m just going to point some things out:
-the person who wrote the thread pulling the “child” card makes me laugh because tommy had committed more crimes than wilbur at that point. ah yes tommy innit innocent child being horribly dragged into a giant war by evil wilbur /s
-wilbur did not call dream a tyrant before dream showed up and made fun of their land
-wilbur did not legitimately think dream a tyrant when he told tommy and tubbo to call him that. neither, really, did tommy and tubbo. it was a joke. like infinite women. like dream saying “i’m evil” when he was blowing up creepers on their land before the battle. like dream and sapnap being all “down with the british”.
-their attitude on that changed when the greater smp begin exhibiting tyrannical behavior (before war was declared!).
-“having tommy and tubbo fight his battles and build his walls” is just untrue
-the l’manburg anthem was, one, not written by wilbur (he commissioned someone to do it on fiver), and two, was written after the first war. they sing it in the stream where niki joins. so yeah, at that point, they did emancipate from the brutality and tyranny of their rulers! it doesn’t say who the rulers are (therefore it’s. not blaming solely dream.) but pretty much all of them were brutal!
-also oh my god this thread has a lot of things that wilbur just straight up didn’t say (or do).
-“would rather die than submit to your tyrannical rule” is a quote from the speech wilbur gives before dream lights the tnt. dream had done stuff to them at that point. this is out of context.
-i don’t want to seriously critique this thread because a lot of it seems more like something emotional than an attempt to start conversation, and i can’t really go against that.
-the main argument, that dream did nothing before being irreversibly forced into the role of the villain does not really match up with what happened.
-there’s a lot less of people calling dream a villain than people seem to remember.
-and also, dream was lying about wanting l’manburg to be something. he says to eret a few days later the quote that i included a while back, that his goal has always been for there to be one faction: the dream smp. note that at this point he’s officially on manburg’s “side” now. he also says he has never wavered on this from the beginning. so he’s either continuing his manipulation of eret and lying to them, or he’s just saying that he wants l’manburg to be something to wilbur and tommy to try to get them to trust him. and hearing him yell “YES!” after the explosion? i’m inclined to think it’s the latter.
okay, so then looking at the second analysis:
-once again, calling wilbur a colonizer? there is a definition of that word that matches up with his actions, but that definition is something establishing itself in a place. by that definition, everyone on the server is a colonizer. so calling just wilbur that seems... a bit weird, considering that the common definition does not match up with what he did.
-“got his (wilbur’s) entire side killed” ignores the fact that it was Dream And His Friends Who Killed Them hghfnjgnfm
dream: wow wilbur you’re bad at this war thing
wilbur: please stop killing us
dream: how could you do this to your people
wilbur: you??? declared war???
dream: no you don’t understand. i had a really good reas—
sorry sorry i’m just. yeah
-also this thread reminded me that “tyrant” (the book) exists and yeah, i do see your point that dream did care about tommy (a little bit). i just wonder why he turned against him again? and why dream is willing to admit here that l’manburg was peaceful, and also that wilbur was not like schlatt in some key ways?
-and again i don’t see wilbur calling dream a villain during the vassal scene.
-some of this thread is just speculation. i’m not going to consider “wilbur may manipulate dream in the future because they had a conversation in the past”, especially because revivedbur’s mental state right now is godawful, because i don’t think it holds any value to examining the past. the important part is the breakdown of the vassal scene.
-i’ve already said what i think about the vassal scene. dream wasn’t getting tossed around during that. just because he’s quiet doesn’t mean he’s being manipulated? and wilbur isn’t going “you think this”, he’s asking dream what he thinks by paraphrasing what wilbur’s heard from him before, and adjusts it once dream corrects him. i do think this one is more open to interpretation though; this is just my opinion and it doesn’t have a lot of stuff to back it up lol but i’m not convinced either side has much evidence
and the third analysis:
-dream had no idea what kind of government they were setting up there. he didn’t ask, so he wouldn’t know if it was a dictatorship. and again he was allowed on the land, he just never built the embassy. the “no americans” rule was weakly enforced during the first war, and the reason wilbur got so serious about it later is that the americans were the ones who went after him and killed everyone during the war! so he had a reason to want them off. objectively a bad reason? maybe
-it would be cool if dream said “hey don’t do this here’s why” instead of stomping off during negotiations and then coming back to beat them up and declare war. he didn’t though
-the problem people have with greater smp vs. l’manburg is scale. the greater smp was quite literally infinite, and l’manburg was a small space. there wasn’t anything important in l’manburg that other server members needed to get to. people could still leave to visit their friends. they didn’t legitimately hate americans. but nooo, you can’t have the table because it’s my table. what if you do something bad with the table? remember when you tried to sell people “better air” for three dollars and then took someone’s air conditioning? you just want power! i’m going to go bring back rubber bands to pelt you with.
anywAys moving on
no, i do agree with you on the sam stuff. for some reason i was under the impression that cc!sam was uncomfortable with being depicted as torturing dream a while back, but with the stuff happening with quackity now, i’m reasonably sure that doesn’t apply. they don’t retcon stuff that was intentional but there may have been something taken back a few months ago before they planned this.
but yeah, clearly the prison stuff is awful and messed up. that’s why i noted the thing at the start of the reply: i am in no way saying that anything sam or quackity have done to dream since prison hasn’t affected him. these are things that i see as having visible impacts on the character.
(i pointed out that dream originally commissioned the prison)
i understand that it’s frustrating to hear that used as an excuse, but i wasn’t using it that way. i was pointing out that neither of them deserve it. during the vault stream, dream tells tommy that his plan is to put him in the prison. he says that exile was “perfect”, and the only issue was that tommy could get away. putting him in the prison fixes that.
so yeah, what dream was planning to do to tommy is different than what’s happening to him. but the reasons that other people wanted dream in the prison match why he wanted tommy in there: like you said, it’s a vault. it’s so he can store him and use him later, to give attachments and thus power and control over others.
tommy’s original plan was to kill dream. ultimately, he didn’t want him to suffer more, he wanted him gone. nobody on the server knew yet that death was limbo, and tommy probably thought it was mercy for someone like dream. dream was the one who brought up the book, as an attempt to save himself. he will say whatever he needs to say to avoid death, because anyone would (except someone like wilbur who’s. accepted his role. you know?) so he’s the one who reduced himself down the the book, saying if he goes, so does it. that’s when sam suggests the prison.
true, the arc is dark. this is where sam’s actions become corrupted and he loses sight of some of the responsibility he claims to have. it’s also the arc where dream lied to tommy that he had changed, and pressured him into staying by saying he was his friend. it’s the arc where dream kills tommy, and doesn’t allow sam to come get his body for days. it’s the arc where dream gets even worse, whether because of his time in the prison or because of his peaked god complex, probably both.
and again, my problem is that criticizing characters for actions they didn’t take is pointless. it tells you not much about the character, and considering the circumstances of what dream had done it does make sense for none of them to step in! they are looking at the fact that dream had an entire vault dedicated to controlling them. they are seeing that dream was fully prepared to murder tubbo and lock tommy away forever to be used. they are witnessing tommy giving dream exactly what he got.
so “acknowledging” this does nothing useful! we do not see these actions (or lack of) specifically affecting dream. i can tell you what dream told people he was doing, and it matches up with things he had done in the past, and there are moments he denies the narrative that you say drove him to do this. but i can’t really prove anything when you say he’s lying here because it fits how you interpret the story.
it’s what you’re saying people are doing to revivedbur: saying he’s lying without any proof, when with him there is evidence and he has the motive to lie. when revivedbur lies, tommy calls him on it. tommy doesn’t call dream on it. i’ve laid out why i think it’s not true, and i’ve seen stuff in early canon that directly contradicts what revivedbur says. occam’s razor! many pieces of evidence versus a few statements from someone who at that point commonly lied about things like that.
dream standing by while tommy and the other citizens get killed in l’manburg by his own orders isn’t very peaceful or non-tyrannical of him. tommy was enforcing an eye for an eye, and to be honest? i don’t think “kill your abuser” is such a terrible message to send, despite the fact that we know that tommy’s coping mechanisms come from a bad source. and tommy was far from free of what dream did to him, as evidenced by later when he again attempts to mirror what dream had done to him in the past.
yeah, i read your analysis of the interaction (skeppy and dream arguing over l’manburg). that’s not the only interpretation. skeppy doesn’t call him the villain. he is repeating back to dream the actions that dream took, and dream tells him he’s making him sound bad. skeppy wasn’t influenced by any “propaganda” you think l’manburg was putting out while they were getting murdered. skeppy was an outsider who was calling it as he saw it.
and if other people saw what dream was doing as bad, maybe he was... doing bad things? for bad reasons? skeppy was critical of dream for his actions. talking over somebody does not certify it as “twisting words”. skeppy was accusing him of doing the actions, like “so you did this? you started the war?”. dream was defending the logic behind his actions, like “well i did it because.”
basically
skeppy: hey it’s kind of. messed up that you killed a bunch of people. you know? you kind of just attacked them out of nowhere
dream: no no no you don’t understand. i had a really good reason
skeppy: i don’t see a reason?
dream: you’re making it seem like i didn’t have to do this
skeppy: you d i d n ‘ t
and skeppy didn’t finish the conversation with “you’re lying” or “you don’t know what you’re talking about”, he just told him he was wrong! as in his actions were cruel and needless! “people must have hated coming to your house”.
(they asked me to name one person who dream cut off first)
okay, name one? puffy. sam. punz? he did cut them off, he straight up told tommy he did it, and making a place in the vault for fran when sam had done nothing but work with him? and they didn’t “show up ready to kill him”, they showed up to see what he was doing. so he tells tommy he abandoned them, and indirectly tells them with the spirit scene. sapnap and george noticed this, and called him on it, but he just said he didn’t mean it?
if dream “wasn’t as close” with sam/puffy/punz, why are we putting responsibility on them for his actions.
so sapnap and george walked away from him, but because he did something to them. and puffy didn’t abandon him. punz didn’t abandon him, punz got paid off because that’s what punz cares about: money. he’s a mercenary.
using “they left him first” for sapnap and george doesn’t allow for why they left him: because he wasn’t treating them fairly. he isn’t their parent, he’s their friend, and he wasn’t acting like it.
“he was hurt and abandoned to the point” “he ended up hurting people doesn’t negate the fact he was hurt himself first” “the environment they all were a part of pushed him this far, and that’s just what happened”
so you’re saying it’s right that the reason dream did bad things to people is because bad things were done to him first? because dream was definitely the one who got attacked first during l’manburg. because he just cared so much about george that he kicked someone out of society just to defend his honor. /s and then, because his real purpose was protecting george, he went back and tried to make things right with george because it wasn’t about tommy? oh wait, he didn’t. he focused on only tommy. because george’s house was an excuse.
“that’s just what happened” is a bad take on “people got abused”. the fact is that dream started a lot of the conflict. looking at the retaliation and self-defense that people did towards him and saying “he got hurt a bunch that’s why he did the later bad stuff” completely negates that he started it? and his “retribution” was always exponentially worse than the actual crime committed?
dude, i’m just trying to point out that the story says he cut people off. yeah, he was hurt at times, but that is not an explanation for what he did. it’s not even a logical cause, because we do not see it affect his character. the subtext has gotta be there. the fact that he was hurt does not make him any more justified.
“circle of violence” does apply (not all of them, though). but in this situation, it’s a kid stealing someone’s lunch money, and then the other kid breaks their nose. the first kid punches the kid, the second kid puts them in the hospital. when the retribution dream gave was always worse than whatever happened to him, the issue is not “look at the people hurting him”, it’s “stop him from hurting people”!
so clearly dream needs some kind of therapy (not from puffy though i’m not letting him near her /hj), because just killing him would be a permanent solution but it would upset people who like his character. the prison is awful and not going to work. my personal solution for him is to send him out somewhere a long way away, so that nobody he’s hurt has to see him again. maybe people that wanted to go with him could, and it would be like a new smp. but when that idea was proposed, tommy said darkly that he was always going to come back. maybe it’ll be the solution in the future. who knows.
if the mistakes were unintentional, why criticize the characters for them? and what about “the environment” besides the other people changed how dream thought? a lot of it was internal.
we have him exiling tommy as a weird, desperate plea for friends (not really) when he very much could have gone back and spoken to the people who were his friends. we have him continuously saying that tommy causes all the problems, and he needs to be “restrained” or “controlled” or whatever other excuse he came up with for taking away a person’s free will.
we have him obsessing over the disks, and we know it’s not about the disks, it’s about power over tommy and power in general. he says this in the vault. he says this at the community house scene. his progression is towards a twisted sense of possession, same as wilbur, oddly enough. but they are different in that wilbur is possessive over the idea of freedom that he created with l’manburg (and having power over that) and dream is possessive over control over all.
wilbur’s idea is ruined. he tied his sense of self to the nation and when it was used for corruption (kind of by him and mostly by others) he saw himself as corrupted and decided to take them both out so that they couldn’t hurt anyone. he admits his own fault to the point of self destruction.
dream’s idea is threatened. other people live there, other people want to do things, and so he becomes so attached to the idea that it’s his server and he will do anything to control opposition. he cannot admit his fault unless forced to.
wilbur would do anything to control a tool of power, because he wanted to not use it as that tool. wilbur wanted anarchy at the end. he says so in his last presidential speech. his naive views about freedom from the start of the server had worn off, as he saw people use power as a tool in a way that he had never intended or meant to use it.
wilbur created the election so that he would have an actual authority over the land, and he could stop the fighting of its citizens. he thought he knew better, kind of like dream did. this is when his motives get the most twisted and selfish, he wanted peace so bad that he would take away freedom for it (like dream). but when he lost, he accepted it, and that’s the difference. he saw the desire for control in his own actions, and hated himself for it. that’s why he wanted to blow up l’manburg, to take away the tool for power and the person who had been tempted to use it.
wilbur was a good leader in the political sense (dream admits this in “tyrant”) but when he stands before the rubble of l’manburg and calls it his, he’s saying that his rule would only lead to destruction. anyone’s rule would. power corrupts. l’manburg ruined is his l’manburg, it’s his original vision of complete freedom laid out before him, and tracked to its inevitable end.
so then, you would say, dream was right, yeah? he didn’t want l’manburg. but wilbur before he explodes l’manburg doesn’t like dream. he thinks dream’s right in that factions lead to oppression, no matter how good the intentions, but he also knows that dream was a little too willing to hurt them and that dream doesn’t believe this. dream does not want anarchy, he wants chaos but only if it gives him control. he treats the smp like his country, and once again, power corrupts.
went off there, sorry. dream and wilbur are similar but different in some very important ways.
sapnap had been hurt by dream before the vault, and as dream didn’t see himself as in the wrong, he didn’t reach out. sapnap was with pogtopia (wait this might be wrong i do not remember but he was definitely on l’manburg’s side during doomsday) because tommy had shown him more kindness than dream, and that was originally dream’s side. dream just turned on them for the book.
and sapnap also witnessed dream mocking tubbo, making fun of tommy, exposing ranboo. he heard dream going off about how tubbo was so stupid for thinking dream was his friend, for thinking dream cared about him. why would sapnap side with dream if dream was showing no signs of even wanting him?
sapnap accused dream of that, and dream did not listen to him. he could not see the other side: he was so convinced that he was right. we do not know if sapnap went into the vault with the intent of killing dream. i’m pretty sure most of them were there to see if what tommy had said was true. and then, sapnap saw that it was.
nobody abandoned him because of the vault because he had already abandoned them. they just made it mutual. it being a “consequence” of stuff doesn’t make it any less of a messed up, power hungry thing to do, and some of them had done nothing to him before he decided he needed to control them. he was planning to use friend to control ghostbur, who he had already taken advantage of and tried to kill once.
“people do not decide to isolate themselves for no reason.”
true, people don’t cut themselves off for no reason. the reason was power and control. i once again have to emphasize that nobody forced him into this: it was a spiral. other people didn’t do everything “first”. the small taste he got of his own medicine was a poor mimic thrown at him by someone he had done terrible things to. he started spiraling before the spirit scene happened. and if people are telling him he can’t achieve peace, maybe they’re just... right? did he go up to someone and go “i don’t know how to make this server peaceful :(“? because if he did, and if they then pointed at his long list of war crimes and told him not like this, i don’t really see that as anything more than a consequence for things he had already done.
someone can lie about what they want. maybe he did originally want peace, or maybe he was lying to himself that he did. l’manburg did not invite war. he wanted unity above peace, and that “unity” dissolved into “control”.
it was a defense so that nobody could control him the way he was going to control them. cutting himself off was out of fear, yeah. collecting everyone else’s items? power and control. he says this a ton of times, sometimes not even out loud.
i did rewatch the vault vod. that’s how i got all the quotes of him stating his motives. i’m not saying it was a healthy thing to do at all. i never said dream was mentally healthy, i said he had a god complex and he was obsessed with control. someone’s bad mental state can hurt others as well as themself, and they’re still responsible for the others and for trying to be a better and more respectful person. that’s why revivedbur’s “apologies” mean nothing right now.
“he lists his reason for starting the war as them declaring independence, so i don’t think it really matters when the official document was sent.”
it does matter a little bit, actually. they were already attacking l’manburg before official war was declared. they also attacked them during the peace period. wilbur wrote the declaration as he was standing on the roof of the caravan, being shot at by the greater smp.
a country becomes independent when it officially declares itself to be independent. they were still united; it was tyranny.
when dream saw that l’manburg was writing the declaration, he scrambled to declare war. he had reopened and started other conflicts in the past, and involved himself in places he did not need to be. it’s true that a response is a response, but you cannot treat all responses the same way. quackity’s “response” to the things dream had done (killing tommy among those) was to torture him. we do not consider that good, or fair, or “just a response”, we consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
the greater smp fulfilled the words that wilbur had not yet written in the document, and that’s because they weren’t a prophesy, they were a history.
“...would be completely honest about (dream’s motivations in the vault) in front of his biggest enemy. /s”
i don’t see evidence that dream wasn’t being honest. what did he have to lose by it? tommy could do nothing to hurt him. so yep, he would be honest about it. and he’s listed his reasons as power before. he also has the ability to tell the truth about his motives.
dream does not see tommy that way. he sees him as someone whose only positive contribution to the server is attachment. he tells tommy that evil is relative, and to dream, tommy is the evil one. in fact, he says that tommy is evil lots of times. he only says that tommy sees himself as a hero when he’s trying to convince him to let him kill his friend. dream is using tommy’s black and white perception to get him to do what dream wants. he only says tommy sees himself as the hero, not that dream sees him that way. dream does not care about who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy, because he’s not idealistic like wilbur and he’s not a kid like tommy.
him making a joke about building the prison with a “little bit of evil” doesn’t matter because next line he says that tommy’s evil to him. dream isn’t playing the villain, cc!dream is. cc!dream is playing a character that is antagonistic towards others, and he plays into it and jokes around with it, as other people playing antagonistic roles have in the past. cc!wilbur does this a lot during the election and pogtopia. cc!techno hints at it with his “ah yes, blowing up a country, we must be the good guys”.
it may sound like a character because someone’s playing it, but it’s not dream.
this video matches up with some of my points here, but it’s also framed like an english class. it is an interesting meta argument, and one that i would say i partially agree with, but as we’re not really arguing on terms of meta it does not act as a general opposition to your argument. the intent of the authors does not dictate how you see the story, but it can help with interpretation of it.
dream’s words during the vault scene sure do line up with his actions for the months before that. so yeah, no discredit to cc!dream. he’s playing his character. and it’s not like he’s unwilling to make him sympathetic. he’s done so in the past (and is doing so now) and the fact that he does not do it during the vault, and downplays the tragic part of it (him losing his friends) sure makes it seem like the main point here isn’t “poor dream”, it’s “poor tommy”. they’re telling a story. it has a moral.
dream being reserved about his plans may be shown in the fact that nobody knew about the vault (except punz i think?) until dream was ready to put it into play. he generally is quiet about what he wants, he just cares a lot about it and will do a lot to get it. he’s not one for speeches unless he’s trying to make a point. the point here being that tommy is trapped. dream’s capable of explaining his thoughts. tommy asks him why and invites him to share, so he does.
this isn’t really a “nobody can interpret it like this”, it’s just pointing out that the events of canon are there and should be fully considered. character dream’s perspective of the story is biased, so people can look at it and be correct in how dream sees the situation, but “how dream sees it” and “how the story goes” do not necessarily line up.
conflicts dream has started besides the vault? okay.
-reopening the disk war by digging up the hidden disks
-declaring war on l’manburg the first time
-burning down other buildings in order to frame tommy
-blowing up the community house (or having it done for him)
-attacking l’manburg again with techno and phil
(didn’t start really, but inserted himself into when it wasn’t his business:)
-helped pogtopia
-gave wilbur tnt
-sided with manburg in the fight
-built walls around l’manburg
-demanded tommy be punished
-took personal responsibility for exile and used it as a way to isolate tommy
there’s also this post that describes things dream has done in general. the tone of the post is biased, but the actions were canon. some of these may be “retribution” but they sure were uncalled for.
so when he exiled tommy, that was about “unity”? big happy family except for one guy because “he causes all the problems”? it doesn’t matter whether he believed he was in the right for his motives. the vault does not make sense for peace or unity. it is a twisted, controlled unity. what i’m saying is that he uses peace as an excuse for his actions. he had to exile tommy, tommy would have just gotten worse. he had to declare war on l’manburg, it was a necessary evil. because nothing screams “peace” like declaring war and killing the other side, right?
those may be his actual motives in the early scenes, and he thinks he’s doing the right thing. this changes with the vault. he no longer uses this as an excuse, his “excuse” is that he has a right to it. his self proclaimed motive is power and control, and unity through that. so why not accept that as his motive when he says it there?
“becoming a control freak as a result of feeling the loss of control over your own circumstances isn’t equal to dehumanizing the people you’re trying to control.”
nah dude he absolutely dehumanized them and took away their agency? he describes tommy as a pet and a tool, minutes before he switches and describes himself as the book. this could also be used to make an interesting point on how he sees people as their values, in item form. so he’s using one item to control another. tubbo’s a pawn, tommy’s a tool, techno’s a weapon, he’s the book.
he calls george a baby, and makes decisions for him. by planning to using the items to control the people, he was prepared to take away their freedom and agency by emotionally manipulating them. he did this to tommy. agency is the capacity of someone to act. he takes away that ability in order to have control.
he’s not just a control freak over his own life, the problem is that he does it to others. again, we’re talking true freedom here: the ability to do anything, even things that we would consider morally wrong. he takes away george’s power, which is revealed to be nothing. he then swiftly turns and tells him that if he tries to overthrow eret, he would be a tyrant. not acknowledging that dream just overthrew a king and stated in a new one, he hypocritically calls george the tyrant for planning to do that.
(i didn’t even notice this until now, but it’s actually interesting: dream is extremely hypocritical here, unless, of course, he sees himself as having more claim to who is king. now why would he think that? a hierarchy, perhaps?)
“which is understandable seeing as you’ve said already you never tried to look deeper into him, but it’s incorrect nonetheless.”
i said that before this i had not attempted to examine his character in a sympathetic light. that’s what i’ve been doing. his wish to “fix” his home is really just a wish to control his home, which is pretty evident when you look at right before exile. the smp was peaceful then. tommy had committed petty crimes before, and george didn’t even really care about the house. it was minimal damage. dream jumped at the opportunity to convince everyone else that tommy was the real problem (speaking of propaganda and vilifying).
and “he was getting better until the sixteenth” disregards that he threatened eret, enabled wilbur (however you interpret that, he still enabled him), and sided with schlatt for power reasons even though he said he would help pogtopia. giving pogtopia some stuff doesn’t make him the “good guy” because pogtopia were not the good guys! that’s the point! he sided with them because wilbur had less ambition than schlatt, and therefore posed less of a threat to the greater smp! he wasn’t helping them just purely out of the goodness of his heart. he didn’t think schlatt was right, he abandoned him very quickly, but he could have just taken the book and dipped. he fought in the war. he took the book for personal gain and he placed that above the trust of pogtopia.
“he wasn’t on a power trip at all, he didn’t have a god complex up until the prison stripped him of all his dignity and then threw an opportunity at him, and he wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone.”
power trip: an activity or way of behaving that makes a person feel powerful
exile and the vault, arguably before that a few times as well. there are a few quotes that emphasize this.
dream’s god complex was already there in the vault. that’s why he was scared enough of being controlled that he shut everyone else away: he wanted to secure himself even more as the sole power.
and exactly. he wasn’t proving anything to anyone else, he was proving it to himself. therefore he also wasn’t trying to “prove” he was big and bad and evil and irredeemable, he was trying to feel confident about his own power!
if he doesn’t care if he’s thought as of evil, why did it supposedly drive him into the spiral? if he stopped caring about it, that would also explain why he was indifferent towards it (because he was indifferent towards it, every time someone called him that, indifferent or angry). he didn’t think he was evil because he thought he had a right to what he was doing. so he pushed himself into wanting more control, after seeing something he identified as a problem: tommy. you’re right that that’s part of what makes him tragic: that he stopped caring about what he owed to anyone else. that’s why he hurt them.
“it’s likely and fits perfectly into his character arc in canon.”
people who are emotionally repressed still show emotions, they just don’t show them as often. dream shows emotions but he does not show the specific emotion that would give evidence to this theory. i’m saying that claiming something is deeply rooted in his character (not the emotional repression, that’s confirmed) when he shows no sign of it doesn’t line up with canon. it’s more of a theory than an analysis.
“it is good storytelling because cc!wilbur pulls it off brilliantly.”
cc!wilbur still played a complex character! his behavior changed significantly after the war, but there is evidence that he was a certain way during the war. his character grew from that point but my argument is that he was not always a liar about important things and that he genuinely believed in the values he formed l’manburg for. if you want to watch wilbur being power hungry and hypocritical, rewatch the election arc.
actions, not words. cc!wilbur pointed out hypocritical things his character said, but that just shows he was playing a flawed character. people using the wall thing as some kind of proof that he was evil is stupid because part of the idea behind the wall was poking fun at america. it was “look, this is what you guys do”.
his early character was passionate and naive. cc!wilbur was aware of this. he was still a chaotic crimeboy, the nation was founded on drugs. but not everything he did was “for chaos” because again, he played a multi-dimensional character. he can make jokes about politics.
“his main support system left by themselves.”
i’ve already explained why i think dream broke most of his own bonds. again, there’s textual evidence to support this and actions as well that line up with it. and lots of people were willing to help dream. he didn’t murder all those people by himself.
“it also seems you’re strongly biased against c!dream, which, to be fair, the majority of the fandom is.”
it’s true my bias is against dream. it’s also true that my reasons for that bias are backed up by moments in the story where he clearly states his intentions, and a lot of the evidence to the contrary is, to me, one-off moments that can be interpreted in many ways. a lot of the bias also comes from the fact that he did pretty bad things and i’ve been watching this for a long time.
this post is pretty much what i’m saying, i guess.
alright @flypaw here it is :]
~ Lad 2
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corlds-world · 2 years
Text
MCC Teams?
Alright mr. Scott Smajor i’ve got some MCC teams and i’ve never done this before and i think these teams could actually happen so we’ll see. I put effort into this and I think I actually did a fairly good job getting all of the teams in that 8k to 9k average.
Red Rabbits: Dream, Antfrost, Gumi, Puffy (avg. 8,852)- I’ve always wanted to see Dream and Ant on the same team cuz I think they could do well together. Gumi and Puffy have done lots of streams with Ant and I think this team would have fun vibes.
Orange Ocelots: Sapnap, George, Ponk, Awesamdude (avg. 8,718) - hunters + ponk would be really fun. 
Yellow Yaks: TapL, Smallishbeans, IntheLittleWood, GeminiTay (avg. 8,469) - for some reason i feel like this team would get along really well. i’ve seen some pretty out there teams so i feel like this isn’t so out there. i’ve seen harvey appear in joel’s videos and martyn has teamed with harvey in mcc pride. i just think everyone on this team could get along very well. 
Lime Llamas: Quig, Rendog, FalseSymmetry, fWhip/DocM77 (avg. 8,092 with Doc or avg. 8,756 with fWhip) - i feel this team could get along very well. I’m pretty curious how well this team would actually do. On the other hand, I would love to see Doc in MCC with Ren cuz they spent all of hermitcraft 8 together. I don’t think it’s a top five team, but I think it would be pretty fun to watch. 
Green Geckos: Petezahhutt, LDShadowLady, DanTDM, CaptainSparklez (avg. 9,047) - c’mon it’s the OGs how could you not put this team together it’s amazing. also they have the highest average in the event so like the captain could win. 
Cyan Coyotes - fruitberries, Grian, Pearl, Scar/Mumbo (avg. 8,361) - I’ve been wanting Scar and Mumbo in MCC for a long time and I think this could be the opportunity. I also love the Grian and Pearl dynamic. And fruit is a Grian stan. 
Aqua Axolotls: Ranboo, Wilbur, Seapeekay, Solidarity (avg. 8,690) - I really want a Wilbur and Callum team i just think it would be fun. Also Jimmy and Ranboo would be fun add-ons to the team and I kinda miss Wilbur/Ranboo teams. 
Blue Bats: HBomb, Philza, 5up, Jack Manifold (avg. 8,640) - I also think this is sort of a pretty out there team. I know HBomb and Jack have interacted on the Dream SMP, so i think they could be a fun duo. I also want to see HBomb with Phil or any A-tier (besides Scott cuz thats OP). To make things balanced, 5up was a pretty good balancer and I think this team is really balanced and everyone would have to carry their weight. 
Purple Pandas: Punz, Niki, Purpled/hannahxxrose/BoomerNA/Wallibear (avg. 6,950) - so this team’s average sucks but that’s because tiredtwt would be new to the event. I think they would be great additions with Punz being the team leader. 
Pink Parrots: Smajor, Shubble, Tommy, Tubbo (avg. 8,940) - Can i just dream? Two iconic duos with each other? Sounds amazing and fun and i would just embrace the chaos. it’s been too long since a tommy/tubbo team too. 
Overall, Pink, Aqua, and Green are the most OP teams. I just think that the people on these teams don’t generally have OP teams. If I had to guess, I think Aqua would get first, though I might be stretching. 
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tarosin · 3 years
Text
The great adventures of y/n tommy tubbo and jack - using tanks to battle
requested: yes/no
this is part 11 to the great adventures series
it was now 5 am you had been on facetime with ranboo since he started streaming at 10 pm neither of you was going to sleep anytime soon
“isn’t it like 5 am for you”
“trying to get rid of me then”
“no no no soon enough I’m going to be stuck with you pretty much 24/7”
“heh? aren’t you staying with tubbo when you come to the UK?”
you watched his face turn red thinking that he had said something that he wasn’t supposed to tell you it was only when he looked up to see you with your head tilted he realised you weren’t aware of what was going to happen in the following weeks
“I will tackle you in the middle of the airport if you don’t tell me what you tubbo and lani mean when you all make comments about me constantly being around yous”
“I cannot wait to see you try”
“I'm blocking you”
hours passed and it was now time for you to get ready to go meet the others you left your phone on your bed whilst you went to get ready by the time you returned ranboo had fallen asleep
“goodnight boo not long now till you’re in the UK, you’re asleep I’m talking to myself goodnight”
since your parents had to go to work they offered to drop you off on the way, the journey to meet the others was pretty uneventful you just spent the time talking about how streaming was going and future plans. that was until your parents mentioned ranboo was flying over soon
“your friend is flying over soon right?”
“ranboo oh yeah yeah he gets here on 26th as far as I’m aware i’m going to tackle him in the middle of the airport”
“great great you’re going with tubbo to meet him, do you know how long you’re going to be out”
“..no why? shouldn’t be too long”
“don’t worry about it darling we’re here now oh look here comes tubbo”
as soon as the car stopped you laughed as you noticed in the corner of your eye tubbo running towards the car you said your goodbyes as you got out of the car and was instantly pulled away by tubbo
“oh oh okay tubbo I think I can walk on my own bud”
tubbo completely ignored every word you had just said and continued leading the way to the others where you were met by Tommy shouting about tanks and jack pretending not to know Tommy.
the four of you went to get ready, a simple enough task or so you thought as when you looked up you noticed Tommy was putting the outfit on the wrong way around
“Are you sure it’s safe for Tommy to drive a tank..”
“help me then”
“no”
a few minutes later the four of you were now equipped with your rather baggy army uniform safe to say if it started to rain you'd have to deal with getting wet as if you put the hood up it would cover your eyes taking away your eyesight which is unsurprisingly important since you were about to drive a tank for the first time. as soon as you all thought you were ready to go to the tanks tubbo announced that although it’s a bad time he needs to go to the toilet
“he’s fucking waddling”
“y/n be nice to your best friend”
you stood laughing to yourself as Tommy was arguing with Jack about how he’s your best friend, not tubbo.
“believe it or not I’m their best friend”
“elaborate on that”
“no”
“i’d argue ranboos their best friend”
halfway through their ‘argument’ tubbo came back and rested his head on your shoulder making you jump
“you're so tiny”
“I beg your pardon tubso”
the worker came over taking you all to the tank you would be driving putting Tommy and jacks argument on hold, for the time being, you were honestly so excited to drive a tank but you were also nervous as you weren’t exactly a great driver
“y/n doesn’t have a license can I get out the tank when it’s their turn”
“you crashed your parents' car fuck off”
before you all got in you were informed that the tank wasn’t designed to take you on adventures so you were probably going to get injured
“great cant wait in you go Tommy”
Tommy got in first followed by you then tubbo and jack
“draw me like one of your beautiful tank girls”
“I failed GCSE art”
“HOW”
“that my friend is a story for another night”
now this tank wasn’t designed so three of you could look out from the top of the tank so you did what every sensible person would do in a tank…you sat on the floor next to tubbo whilst he annoyed jack by touching his face
“y/n you okay down there”
“having the time of my life”
you could hear Tommy revving the tank and from then you could just tell you were going to leave the tank covered in bruises. you sat talking to tubbo and jack who were talking louder than usual just so you could join in the conversation. not seeing what was happening made the tank ride interesting, to say the least. one minute you were messing with tubbos shoelaces the next minute you heard three boys yelling that there was a cow in the middle of the road. it was now tubbos turn to drive and rather than letting you stay with the others he dragged you with him
“you’re driving next may as well stay with me”
“Please don’t crash I will get injured”
“to be fair y/n I didn’t plan on it”
you sat near tubbo watching him drive the tank occasionally yelling words of encouragement at him for your own entertainment and totally not to your surprise he was actually doing a decent job, he didn’t crash, the tank was going quicker and the ride wasn’t as bumpy then tubbo stalled, you could hear Tommy and jack yelling at tubbo to do more killing. you laughed as tubbo would look at the worker then at you not knowing what to do
“Are you ready to drive y/n”
“I guess so”
you and tubbo swapped places and you began to drive like your good friend tubbo you were decent at driving as you managed to pick up some speed along with many comments from jack and Tommy about how bumpy the ride was alongside tubbo yelling at you that you were going to be responsible for the bruises on his arms and legs
“tubbo stop being dramatic it’s not my fault the road is bumpy”
“Y/N I'M NOT”
“Okay then you’re responsible for the bruises on my arms and legs because you decided to stall”
It was now jacks turn you sat next to tubbo where you and Tommy argued that you didn’t like how Minecraft split the caves and cliffs update into two parts
“IT SAID CAVES AND CLIFFS UPDATE AND IT DIDN'T ADD CAVES AND CLIFFS UPDATE”
“you're such a tory y/n agrees with me”
“NO I DON'T I WANTED TO EXPLORE PRETTY CAVES NOT GET CHUCKED OFF OF A CLIFF BY A GOAT”
the three of you continued arguing your points before jack interrupted you all
“we’re talking about the new Minecraft update…because it was you we weren’t really paying attention”
“I DROVE BETTER THAN ALL THREE OF YOU”
“but no you didn’t”
“YOU'RE A PRICK MANIFOLD”
before Jack could answer Tommy began ranting about the update again before being once again interrupted by jack telling him you were about to shoot things and then go up against a tank that was miles better than the one you were all in, the one thing they didn’t know is you would be going with the boss against them just so you could actually have a role in the mini battle rather than just sitting there. you stood shaking your head as Tommy and tubbo made jokes about the balls you were all given
“say it”
“I like balls”
“jack they’re talking about balls…again”
Tommy was first to shoot whilst you and tubbo stood telling jack that the two of you would be the reason you win the battle against the boss, jack went up next and you both were telling Tommy that you weren’t scared of the boss after the last bit of practice you all went back to reception with the worker where he announced the roles you were all going to have
“so my aimer loader and driver”
“Are we allowed to ram tanks”
“no”
jack was the first to realise you hadn’t received a role for the fight against the boss and spoke up about it making tubbo and Tommy realise you did in fact not receive a role
“wait what about y/n they didn’t receive a role”
the worker just nodded at the four of you confusing the hell out of the others while you stood looking around the room to avoid laughing, you didn’t want the others to know so said you’d be back later you just needed to go to the bathroom. rather than going to the bathroom you went off to meet the boss before the others and decided what role you were going to have.
after discussing what role you were going to have the pair of you went back to meet the worker to let him know you have a plan
“LOOK ITS THE BOSS”
“…and y/n”
“oh now we’re losing”
the worker went up to their table to create a plan, once you watched the worker walk away you made your way over to the table they moved to where Tommy was having a ‘date’ with a mannequin
“Woah am I interrupting something”
“I'm on a date y/n”
“y/n you really had to leave me with tubbo and Tommy”
you whispered that you were sorry so Tommy and tubbo couldn’t hear then turned your attention back towards Tommy’s date which wasn’t going very well as Tommy accidentally pulled the wig off of one of the mannequins only to find out that his ‘date’ was also wearing a wig.
it was now time for the battle clearly best friends think alike as you and tubbo both had the role of driver. you and the boss made a strong team and you surprisingly got along well with each other which made teamwork easy making you more of a challenge for Tommy’s team
“yooo this is amazing”
“you’re doing great y/n”
as soon as the boss made the final shot you cheered
“do you think we won then y/n”
“I'm not sure they did put up a good fight”
“come on let’s head back so you can be with your friends again”
the pair of you made it back after thanking him you ran to tubbo, who for some reason was on the floor, and tackled him into a hug before sitting next to him
“AH FUCK”
“HI TUBSO WHY ARE YOU IN THE MUD”
“BECAUSE WE WON”
“mhm sure”
“What role did you have y/n”
“driver”
“NO WAY ME TOO”
your celebration was short-lived as Tommy decided to chuck mud at the pair of you yelling catch when it was far too late to react, you both looked at each other nodded at chucked mud back at him and jack
“ayo we hit him”
after playing in the mud with tubbo for a while jack called you both over to hear the scores and find out who won
“Why do you both have smiley faces on your face”
“y/n used mud to draw a smiley face on my cheek so I got revenge”
in the end, Tommy's team got 10 and began celebrating that they had won
“the boss and y/n got 11”
“LETS GOOOOO”
after bragging about your win you and tubbo ran off throwing mud at each other and Tommy whilst Tommy and jack bickered about who made them lose a few moments later you and tubbo looked up to see Tommy running past you both
“I don't think he's taking the news well”
you all made your way back to the car park Tommy and jack left together tubbo stayed with you waiting for your parents to pick you up on their way back home.
“you could just stay the night at mine..we could stream for a little while I’m sure you’ve left something that you can wear for the night and tomorrow and to be fair you stay at mine all the time”
“yeah I probably do I’ll call them on the way back to yours”
“come on let’s go home”
taglist:
@bearytime @milkydisaster @dumb-chaotic-bi-energy @uselesssapphickitten @l0ver0fj0y @etheriaaly @xx-smiley-xx @hawarun @kylobensgirl @cawcaw-pretty-thing @reverse-iak @renleicrashed @augustine-is-joy @c1loudee
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safetyrat · 3 years
Text
My take on the Jack Manifold being killed by Tommy discussions
This is written so someone who isnt caught up can understand, so lets start at the beginning, Jack Manifolds ad Tommys relationship. Irl Jack and Tommy are very close, but I don’t think they had a strong established relationship in character before exile, especially because Jack was mia for a lot of lore? Many relationships on the smp get taken from the ccs dynamics before the smp (wilbur and tommys mentor/brotherhood, puffychus date), which is why they have been interpreted as close? Jack was part of lmanburg and they have interacted for sure, so I think its fair to say they were friends in roleplay, even if not like,, best friends
during exile, jack visited Tommy- well, tried to visit. Tommy punched him off the bridge in the nether and made sure he died. Jack lost all his stuff and was pissed offed - but that was about it.
The tone of the visit could maybe be compared to the one with Mamacita and Mexican Dream? It was in character, but it wasn’t... serious?
It feels wrong to call it “friendly banter” when mexican dream died, but you cant call it a “Building Character Moment For TommyInnit” either. Jacks visit was similar.
At that point, neither Jack nor Tommy refered to the death as “canon” - the wiki did, however. Not sure what happend there, but it was listed as Jacks second death and when he died on Doomsday, went to hell and back - that part of lore doesn’t work without Tommy killing him.
After Jack came back from hell, he started a bigger character arc with Niki revolving around taking revenge on tommyinnit. Killing him until he is dead permanently. And while that is not presented as the right thing to do - both niki and jack consider their characters villains - its not irrational or without motive.
Tommy has made mistakes and hurt people - whether these were justified is in the eye of the beholder.
For Jacks arc right now, Tommy killing him is an important motivator and a driving point for his plot. Nothing about Jacks current character would be the same without it. Because he acknowledged the death and it was on the wiki for the longest time, its generally considered canon by the fandom.
So, case closed? Tommy killed a man while depressed in exile- yeah, that doesn’t sound right.
A Tommyinnit analysist pointed that out,, earlier today? Thats why we are having this discussion right now. I’m not sure they would appreciate me mentioning their username here, but ive read their analyses before and theyre great, they have a lot of interesting thoughts, and i agree with them bringing this up!! please never send hate to anyone about character analysis!! some people (like me) actually do this for fun.
so, i dont want to touch exileinnit to much, there is a lot to talk about, but... TommyInnit would kill somebody without a second thought. Canon deaths are heavy, theyre big, theyre- and you cannot compare this to punz killing wilbur! Yeah, that wasnt a big character moment for punz, but on one hand hes a mercenary, killing people is kind of part of his job, and on the other hand- the story around lmanburg is not a character focused one, thats a big part of wilburs writing. His main goal is progressing the geopolitical plot and let the character be shaped by it - themes like personal conflict seem less big when there is the fate of a country on your hands.
The exile arc is an entirely character focused story. It deals with themes like mental illness and inner turmoil... do you think it would pass the chance on discussing tommys feelings about killing someone? A past friend, no less?
Murdering someone, on purpose, completly changes the morality of tommys character, and im not ready to commit to that.
There are more reasons I think this, ask me to elaborate if you want, but in my eyes there is no way that Tommy could kill someone in exile with it still being consistent with his character.
So, whats the conclusion?:
TommyInnit killing Jack Manifold is canon in Jacks story, but isn’t canon in Tommys. There is no other way eithers devolopment makes sense otherwise.
This is it. An inconsistency. A plain old plothole.
Oh no, the cinematic masterpiece (/s) that is the dream smp has a plothole, what do we do now?:
...move on? There is no way discussing this will change anything. This type of inconsistency is unique to the dream smp as a medium where the creators have a direct dialogue with the fanbase. This is not the first or last time the wiki has made weird deaths canon, I personally disagree that quackity and schlatt died in the explosion of tubbos execution. This doesnt do against the wiki writers or anything, you guys are so important for this community, but you do stand in direct contact with the creators - an active fan would have probably more, but more importantly different, knowledge of the lore than 90% of the members.
Dont be harsh on the fans, dont be harsh on the ccs, we are exploring a new type of mass reaching story telling here guys.
how do we still make this consistent for the storyline?:
this is where the analysis ends, we are diving more into headcanon territory, but I choose to believe that this was a canon death, but tommy didnt realize it is. In my opinion this just feeds into Jacks themes of being ignored, not taken seriously, etc.
tldr: while tommy killing jack was considered canon for a long time, it doesnt work if you want to have tommys character make sense. Instances like this, where dubious canon gets reinterpreted later happen because of the dream smps unique type of storytelling and should not be a reason for conflict in the fandom.
Thanks for reading, if any of this doesnt make sense after tommys last stream, that I didnt watch because writing this, youre allowed to personally come into my house and assassinate me.
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Text
Dream SMP Recap (March 1/2021) - Breaking Point
Sam has been unable to find a cause for the security breach, leaving Tommy trapped. A heated argument in the cell escalates to a horrifying end.
As the rest of server mourns, the Eggpire celebrates. With their biggest obstacle in the way of their objective gone, it’s time for the next step.
It’s the start of the Final Stage.
---
VOD LINKS:
HBomb94
Ponk
Tommy
Tubbo
Ranboo
Jack Manifold
Connor
Badboyhalo
Captain Puffy
---
- HBomb hosts Foolish and Jack Manifold’s episode of L’Cast!
---
The Prison Stream
(This portion of the recap will be more detailed than normal since it’s one long conversation and there are many important lines here, including a couple that were hard to hear during the stream)
---
- Tommy’s stream starts with him making sounds and singing “Roadtrip.” Dream tells him to stop, he’s trying to write a book.
Tommy: “What are you writing, Dream? What are you writing?”
Dream: “None of your business.”
- There’s a little gray and white cat sat on the chest. Tommy says it’s annoying.
Dream: “No he’s not...he’s actually the best thing that’s happened to us.”
Tommy: (Trying to lead the cat away) “Come with me, come with me...you know what I named him, don’t you? Pussboy, Pussboy!”
- The cat returns to its spot on the chest
Tommy: “Oh, Pussboy, you are so ugly.”
Dream: “C’mon, you’re being mean!”
(Tommy punches the cat)
Dream: “Tommy! Stop!”
- Tommy starts singing “Roadtrip” in autotune. Dream tells Tommy that if he can be quiet, he’ll give Tommy more potatoes.
Dream: “I think that...the cat is the best thing that’s happened to us.”
- Sam joins the call to say hello and ask how it’s been going. He’s come to drop more food into the cell. Tommy also picks up a new clock.
- Tommy asks to be let out, but Sam says he still hasn’t found out what the security issue is. Dream asks how long Tommy will be in here for. Potentially for a while, but not forever.
- Tommy protests about how bad the prison has been. He threatens to get lawyers on Sam, he knows Big Law.
Tommy: "Sam...you know I don’t deal very well in...close quarters situations for a long time, Sam. Sam, you remember when you visited me in exile, Sam? Alright, this is worse than that, Sam...let me out. I don’t like this. Let. Me. Out. Sam.”
- Sam insists he’s doing the best he can and leaves.
- Dream tries to say that it’s not that bad. He’s been in there for a long time, but now it’s better! Tommy writes a book to Dream, signs it and throws it to him.
Dream: “I have company. I have a cat -- I mean, technically it’s not my cat, technically it’s your cat, but still! It’s just as good, keeps me company when I write and everything, we talk sometimes -- ‘cause you’re annoying a lot of the time--”
- Dream throws away the clock in the lava, saying they don’t need it. Tommy punches the cat again.
Dream: “Tommy, hear me out, hear me out...what if...we get out together, okay?”
- Tommy is not a fan of the idea, Dream shouldn’t be let out too. He goes over to the cat and shouts at it for being in his spot. He punches Pussboy twice.
Dream: “Tommy...TOMMY, STOP!”
Tommy: “Excuse me! Come this way, come this way, excuse me Dream I’m trying to right-click Pussboy--”
(Dream moves to get in front of the cat)
Dream: “Tommy.”
Tommy: “Come here, come here! Do you like this cat, Dream?”
Dream: “Yes, I do.”
Tommy: “Why?”
Dream: “Because he -- Tommy, he keeps me company --”
(Tommy punches Pussboy again and leads him towards the lava)
Tommy: “Pussboy, this way. Pussboy, this way. Let me show you the light--”
Dream: “He’s probably low, he’s probably low!”
Tommy: “Oh what, you love him? Do you love him? Do you love him?”
Dream: “Yes, I do...Tommy, he’s made things better in here -- okay listen! When you leave, can you sit him down and leave him here?”
(Tommy goes over and punches Pussboy again. He tries to lead Pussboy away again, but when the cat doesn’t come he punches Pussboy twice more, killing him)
Tommy: “Yeah. And that’s what happens when you love something, bitch.”
...
Tommy: “See, now when I leave, when I leave, you’ll have nothing! ‘Cause you are lonely, and you’re m-m-manipulative, you’re a fuckin’ twat, and I mean that.”
Dream: “Tommy...I’m gonna get out! And you just motivated me -- you motivated me all the time, you just -- that was hope, right? The cat was hope -- the cat was hope that I could live a nice life in here--”
Tommy: “And now it’s dead, now it’s dead.”
- Dream insists that he’ll get out, and when he does, he’ll get his revenge on everyone who wronged him. Tommy asks if he’d kill Tubbo. 
- The subject goes back to Dream’s plan of escape.
Dream: “I have a plan. And the thing is, Awesamdude’s never gonna believe you that I have a plan because he thinks it’s unbreakable, unescapable--”
“I have a plan. And you know, there’s a certain someone who owes me a favor, but -- that might be a part of it, but...I do have a plan.”
- They argue about the conditions of the prison again. 
Dream: “I’ve been in here a for hundred times longer than you, and you sit there trying to tell me that it’s so horrible, that it’s so bad -- yeah, it was! But guess what, we have each other to talk to, and we had a cat until you fucking killed it!”
Tommy: “Dream...Dream, and listen to this -- fucking engrave this on you, write this into your arms, Dream...You don’t have me. You’ll never have me. We don’t have each other, alright? I am me, and you are this fuckin’ loser who goes around manipulating people, lying to get what he wants. You are a fuckin’ no one, man, alright? And when I’m going to leave here, you’re not! You might have a favor -- you think, who is it, Technoblade’s gonna be able to come in here to let you out -- Technoblade, he doesn’t like governments, but he likes self gain! You think he wants to piss off the owner of the most POWERFUL building on the entire server, just so that he can get a video that BARELY scrapes the five million view mark -- NO, Dream, alright? You’re a fuckin’ asshole, you’re deluded, you’re delusional, and I fuckin’ hate you.”
Dream: “Okay...yeah, but I have something Techno would want, so...it means knowledge, alright?”
- Dream says that even when he’s in here, he’s more powerful than Tommy outside. Tommy replies that if he wanted to, he could kill Dream right now. The only reason he doesn’t is because they need the revive book.
- Dream says that he will never use the revive book to help Tommy or his friends. Ever.
Dream: “So kill me. Go ahead, come on.”
- When if Tubbo dies, Dream says, they’ll come begging for Tubbo to be revived, and Dream will ask to be let out.
- Tommy then says that this isn’t worse than exile, because in exile, Tommy thought Dream had all the power, and Tommy knows something...he thinks the revive book isn’t real. Jschlatt was just a drunk, why would he have this book?
Dream: “Jschlatt gave me the book -- why else would I switch to Jschlatt’s side?!”
...
“I’m not lying! Jschlatt gave me a revive book after...before he died....because...he said--” (he cuts off here)
- Dream asks why he would be lying about that.
Tommy: “You’re a liar! You’re a liar, and really, through your Netherite armor and skin, I look at you and you know what I see? I see a sad little man who’s insecure about the fact that this server has gotten so far ahead of him that his only little glimpse of power in this world is gone. And I see an insecure, sad little man. So fuck off. You stupid green lad.”
Dream: “Your life...is literally in my hands. Does that piss you off? Does that make you mad? Does that make you so mad that I -- if you kill me -- I MIGHT AS WELL BE A GOD, TOMMY! YOU CAN’T KILL ME, AND I CAN KILL YOU! So what does it mean, that you can’t kill me because of the revive book -- what does that mean? If you can’t kill me, does that make me some kind of god?”
Tommy: “No Dream. I could kill you right now. If I wanted to.”
Dream: “Okay. But you won’t. But you won’t! I could kill you if I wanted to! I could kill you right now, actually.”
...
Tommy: “I don’t think this revive book is real. Schlatt? He’s fuckin’ dead. I’ve seen his grave! His grave is real, his corpse is there!”
Dream: “Okay...Why don’t you go see him then?”
Tommy: “NO -- stop it stop it stop it st--”
--- ---
CANON DEATH: TOMMY
Cause: Punched to death
--- ---
End of stream.
---
- Tubbo, Ranboo and Jack see Tommy’s death message in game chat.
- They go to the prison and Sam is there to tell them what happened. Sam couldn’t get there in time. He didn’t think Dream would actually kill him. They’re all in shock. 
- Tubbo and Ranboo think Tommy will be back. There’s no way he’s actually dead, right? 
- Jack Manifold is in celebration. He got what he wanted! He thought Dream would want Tommy alive, and killing Tommy himself would be an extra jab in the chest for Dream, but apparently not? And now he has a hotel!
- He decides to check on Tubbo and makes sure he’s okay. 
- Jack walks down to the shore and looks up at the prison, and...it hits him. He’s spent months plotting to kill Tommy. Jack realizes his victory feels hollow. Even now, Tommy and Dream have managed to take away this from him. 
- Of Ze Haus, he says that this place no longer means anything to him. He gets a flint and steel and sets it alight, watching it burn.
- He passes by Tommy’s house and finds Ranboo planting red and white flowers outside.
- Jack switches into his L’manburg uniform and walks along the Prime Path.
Jack: “I remember the day I joined the server. The day after the first war. L’manburg was still a big hole, and we built it up. And Tommy invited me to join. And I betrayed him (laughs), so really this has all come full circle.”
“Maybe I was always really just upset because I always felt like he cared more about the discs than...anyone. And I guess I just enjoyed it when we were friends...and...I’ve not really had any friends...since...then, really. Never really wanted any.”
- Jack later speaks with Foolish and tells him that Tommy’s never coming back from prison. Foolish didn’t know him too well, but he’s still a bit sad. When anyone passes, it’s sad.
- Jack heads back out into the wilderness, wandering to the beach area at the edge of the forest where Quackity had his argument with Badboyhalo a while back. There’s something just beyond the hill.
- Quackity meets him there and escorts him back home, telling him he was heading too close to something, could have gotten “a nice view of it.”
- He’s been thinking of writing up a draft of their contract. He also sees the new McPuffy’s.
- Jack tells Quackity that Tommy’s not in the prison anymore. Quackity says they need to talk to him and make sure Jack keeps his hotel. As the rain pours, Jack tells him. Tommy didn’t make it.
- Quackity and Jack have a moment in front of Tommy’s house. Though upset, Quackity says it’s time to get back to work.
Quackity: “Jack...don’t let this affect business. The train doesn’t stop.”
Jack: “No, it only goes faster.”
- Jack also speaks with Antfrost. Antfrost gives his condolences, and says he’ll put together a celebration “of life.”
Ant: “Bad and Sam will be happy...to attend, of course!”
- Afterwards, Jack heads down into Karls nightclub and ends stream there.
- Connor speaks with Sam Nook at the hotel.
- Bad meets Ant at the Holy Land. Ant asks if the church would be a good place for a celebration. Ant sits Bad down to tell him. Bad is overjoyed. 
- Bad says that now, they don’t even have to do any preparations: 
They can move into the Final Stage.
- They get milk for the cake and decide to throw the party at Tommy’s house!
- They meet with Sam at the prison entrance. He sounds dejected.
Sam: “I didn’t think Dream would ever actually...try and kill him”
Bad: (laughs) “Is this the same Dream we’re talking about? It’s Dream, Sam.”
Sam: “I mean...Dream had...I thought I had...broken the will out of him, to do something like that. But he...he did.”
- He says they need to find out what it was -- he wandered around the prison several times and couldn’t find any sign that someone had done something.
- Ant and Bad try to reassure Sam that Tommy signed the waivers, he went to see Dream, and Sam shouldn’t blame himself. Sam doesn’t see it that way.
- They say they’ll talk to Sam later and leave the prison. They see Sam Nook at the hotel. Sam is excited about the new upgrades for the hotel! Tommy will be so excited to see them!
- They return to Tommy’s house and speak with Punz as they make a party floor and sing the Crab Rave song in dudududus.
- Meanwhile, Captain Puffy is grieving, feeling like she failed Tommy. As she logs on, Bad and Ant decide that Puffy might want to join them for the party! 
- Punz meets them there, and they tell him that Tommy’s dead. Punz isn’t sure how he feels, it’s bittersweet.
- Puffy arrives and angrily tells them to leave. What’s wrong with them?!
- The Eggpire sees Sam Nook at the hotel and goes up the floors to find a place to party. Puffy comes up and tells them to find another place to party. They argue again.
- Foolish arrives to visit his room in the hotel. Puffy leaves them. They quarrel about who has the room for the night.
- Puffy mines down the Eggpire’s meeting room. She’s noticed that being a hero hasn’t worked. Sparing people, being merciful, it hasn’t worked. She might need a change of perspective. 
- The Eggpire decides to visit the Egg and break the news to it. They see the wreckage, but Puffy is in the Nether by the time they get there.
- Puffy visits Logsted.
- The Eggpire goes down to the Egg Room and finds the pathway blocked up with obsidian...is this why the Vines have been slower to grow lately?
- They break the barrier and find the Egg drenched in water. They wake up the Egg and it speaks.
“This world is mine. It belongs to me.”
“No no no, I know, but we’ve got something to tell you!”
“I see all...I...am...all...”
“Oh so you--”
“I know all.”
“You know then! Guess -- well, we’ll tell you anyway in case you don’t know -- but guess what? Tommy’s dead! Dream -- the green guy, you met him -- killed him in the prison! I guess Tommy got stuck there, and Dream killed him! Are you happy?"
“Feed me...I require nourishment.”
“No no no, don’t worry -- that’s coming soon! We’ll take care of that! We’re already gonna begin the preparations, right guys? Yeah, we’re gonna begin the preparations, and we’ll send out the invitations, we’ll let everyone know...and the final stage can commence! This is wonderful!”
- Once on the surface, Bad announces that with a little more preparation, they’ll all get exactly what they want. The final stage is about to commence. 
The day of celebrations, the day they’ve been preparing for, the day the Egg has been preparing for, is about to happen...
- Bad goes down to the Egg Room one last time and stands at the Egg to give a final speech.
“Everything leading up to this point, EVERYTHING, all the way going back to the discovery of this...beautiful, luxurious Egg, okay...we had it all planned. As soon as we found it, we knew what was gonna happen. We knew the objective...”
“We may have forgotten what it was, forgotten the ultimate goal as soon as we boxed the Egg up in obsidian. But guess what -- that didn’t stop the Egg! Boxing it up only made it STRONGER, and LARGER, and more powerful! And the Egg’s been storing up that energy, okay? You may have been thinking the Vines have not been spreading...but that’s because we haven’t WANTED them to spread. We have been working, storing energy, storing power...in preparation for the final plan. The final objective. And there were only a couple people getting in the way. But guess what? One of the biggest obstacles -- Tommy -- is no longer in the way...now that he’s not in the way, we can commence with the final stage...the final party...before it all comes to a conclusion...”
“Brace yourselves...everybody on this server, prepare. Anyone who is anti-Egg...you guys better get ready, because we know who you are. And at the end of the day, the Egg is gonna be victorious. And there’s nothing ANYBODY can do to stop it.”
“Good luck.”
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