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gayregis · 4 years

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how do i ignore all the misogyny in the witcher books? they're much better than the netflix show storywise but there is so much gross stuff compared to what i usually read/watch

hi!! thank you for the ask, this is a very important topic to address, though i believe you are asking the wrong question. the matter is not how to ignore the misogyny in the witcher and other pieces of media, but rather how to confront it and face it head-on.

i don’t believe in making excuses for the media i consume when it has “problematic elements” to it. this isn’t meant to be taken as an excuse to “consume anything you like,” because i would not engage with something insidious in its nature (such as media that revolves around and is based upon harmful stereotypes or insensitive jokes and cannot exist without this, some examples of this are infamous things that i’ve seen discussed on this site like captive prince, cmbyn, and hazbin hotel). instead this is about when a piece of media is good overall in nature (the witcher has many anti-war, anti-violence, anti-imperialist themes and messages relating to family, childhood, friendship, and love) but has elements that are the results of the author’s personal biases.

i think before i address how to deal with the misogyny, i’ll actually define what misogyny exists within the witcher books, to be more specific about what we are talking about, and also to do the work of addressing the misogyny in the books:

how the women in the witcher are treated as characters and how they are depicted by the author.

there are a few good points in this subject. characters such as yennefer and ciri are very strong characters who receive a lot of development over the course of the series, and are main characters that are integral to the plot. they demonstrate both strengths and weaknesses, virtues and vices. they have depth and are not one-dimensional characters, especially as they become more and more complex over the course of the series.

blatant sexualization of women when it’s inappropriate or irrelevant, descriptions of female characters’ looks or bodies that male characters would not have received.

bizzare standards for what is beautiful for a woman, including body descriptions (“triss’s waist measured 22”) and extreme focus on youth and the age cusp of around 15 to 18 as being the most attractive for a woman (stated in-universe, even though this could be excused as being what is normal in the 1200s, keep in mind that this is the author’s decision to impliment this standard into their society).

descriptions and scenarios of extreme violence towards woman that are gratuitous in nature and do not add to the story or have any relevance. (geralt being paralyzed with his knee during the stampede at the refugee camp in bof is NOT on the same level as yennefer being extremely tortured at stygga or ciri meeting “forest gramps” in lotl). some of this violence towards women is related to the male antagonists being misogynistic (such as leo bonhart) but a lot of it is just pure filler and is not necessary for the story.

majority of female characters do not get the depth they deserve, and some are pretty one-dimensional. the sorceresses are a good example of this, as the majority of them are shallow and manipulative. female characters are also just generally not given as much “page time” as male characters, for example compare how much depth and backstory regis and cahir receive to how much milva and angouleme receive. regis’ backstory is entirely irrelevant to the main plot but it’s extremely long, and angouleme’s backstory is more relevant to the main plot (she was born of cintrian nobility) yet it is extremely short. (one could make the argument that this is an effect of their characters because regis talks a lot and angouleme is still processing her trauma, but more could have been given to angouleme even if she is not extremely talkative).

the only canon lesbians in the witcher are not good people and are manipulative in nature, and the only canon f/f relationship (ciri/mistle) is representative of a turmultous, vicious time of violence, and is based upon sexual assault.

the gender non-conforming female characters who ARE good people,never have their gnc-ness treated with any depth, and it is insinuated that they are heterosexual.

male protagonists such as geralt and dandelion are both misogynistic at various times in the books, especially in the short stories. this is unlike when male antagonists are misogynistic, because it is represented as something wrong and is intended to characterize them as vile people. instead, geralt and dandelion say or do misogynistic things and it is treated like a joke or something normal, and not a flaw or something repulsive.

how to confront all of this?

the first step is to address it, just as the above list does, and discuss things that stood out to you and are definitively wrong, that the author should not have put in the story because it is useless and only serves to further misogyny in the real world. it would be a grave mistake to think of these things as “fine” and continue to view the witcher books as some kinds of perfect scripture. so many people feel that just because they enjoy something, they are not allowed to critique it and discuss parts of it that are uncomfortable or plain wrong.

to continue with this point, i think it is important to put the witcher into context as a fantasy series written in the 1990s by a white man who did not (to my knowledge) intend this series for such a broad audience and franchise that it has become. this is not an excuse for sapkowski at all, but rather i think it’s important to understand the origins of the witcher and how it came to be in the first place. this wasn’t a series made to be inclusive and diverse, it wasn’t intended to be “for us” in the first place.

i do not believe that there is MEANT to be any “positive representation” in the witcher because i don’t believe it is something that sapkowski was actively considering when he wrote the books. just because there isn’t good representation in the books does not mean they and everything related to them are not worth your time, but if you are someone desperately searching for good positive representation or someone who NEEDS to see representation of someone like them in every piece of media they consume, i don’t think the witcher books are necessarily a good place to start. this isn’t meant to deter you from reading or interacting with the books/book canon, but rather a fair warning about what the intentions of the books are.

i don’t think the books are a groundshaking work of art that are meant to inspire concepts such as diversity, rather it is a very specific work that in its true nature is an argument of a critique of popular fantasy tropes with additional commentary on themes of violence and family. so this is basically meant to say ‘understand what you are getting into.’

how to move on?

the main question which i answer is “is the root of this thing (a piece of media/a character/etc) something that revolves around the bad part, or was the bad part just thrown in there and is incongruent with the rest of the thing?”

the biggest example i think of tackling the misogyny in the witcher and still managing to enjoy it is with dandelion (lol). i think it’s every day that i have to reconcile with the fact that i genuinely enjoy dandelion as a character and hold a conversation with myself about which parts from canon i enjoy and which parts i don’t. his character at its core is not a bad person, he is meant to be an inversion of the trope of the slovenly and lecherous comic relief, and sapkowski succeeds in turning the trope on its head. dandelion is very loyal and committed, he demonstrates his worth in the narrative and doesn’t act with pure selfishness and greed. he is an inversion of all of the negative traits of his trope, but sapkowski also wrote in, like, a literal rape joke for him to say in the bounds of reason. how do you get over that? personally, i just go back to “is this congruent with the rest of the character or not,” and my answer at least for dandelion is no. the rape joke in the bounds of reason seemed entirely out of place to me, it doesn’t fit in with the rest of his character.

similarly, why does geralt sleep with girls who are barely 18 within the events of the witcher? how do you get over that? well, i don’t believe that’s congruent to the rest of his character, the POINT of his character, which is to protect young girls.

so i go back on my word of what i begun this answer with, and i tell you that i indeed DO ignore some parts about the witcher. but it is not a blind ignorance, an ignorance in which i do not consider the effects and i pretend like they do not exist at all. it’s a choice which i make and a process of logical steps that i follow, an understanding and an agreement i come to with myself and the media i interact with. i acknowledge the context surrounding the creation of the media, i acknowledge the effects that these elements had on their readers and how they relate to the real world, and how i know that these things are objectively wrong. i understand why they exist in the canon, and why i feel justified for choosing to take them out of what i regard as part of my experience.

it’s tempting to proclaim “canon is dead and we have killed the author,” but understand how the author’s personal experiences and biases have influenced the media that they created and which you now consume. you can’t take the personal biases completely out of the writing of the witcher and you have to acknowledge that they still exist in the text. even if you make up your own headcanons, it is still imperative to consider the issues that originate in canon.

what does this look like?

complaining to your friends who also like the witcher / on social media that you hate these parts of the books and explain why you hate them and why they are unnecessary

thinking about why these parts were written in and the context surrounding them

making your own rewrites / headcanons around these parts (ex: my idea for the rewrite of a little sacrifice)

making your own headcanons to establish what was not (ex: my headcanons for angouleme’s trauma and how it affects her in the present, headcanons about how the hansa becomes a family)

tldr: acknowledge why these elements exist in canon. choose to follow a process that will allow you to salvage the parts which speak to you while still understanding that these elements exist in canon and will never disappear. continue to like the canon without the parts that you understand are rotten.

edit: also the netflix show has some pretty misogynistic parts to it as well, yennefer and ciri have way less agency as characters than they do in the books. geralt literally coerces yennefer into sex in twn and treats her with absolutely no respect, and ran from fathering ciri solely because he was a dick. obviously this isn’t the point of the ask, but i think it’s important to acknowledge that twn has misogynistic elements as well and not pretend like just because twn was led in 2020 by a wealthy white woman that it’s progressive in any way.

#ask #anon #long post /

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takashi0 · 4 years

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I want to confess something: I've encountered the statement "listen to poc/minorities when they something is offensive" when I wrote posts about why I disagree against the criticism of Hazbin being "problematic", and while I usually agree with that statement I also think people should be free to form their own opinions. Do you agree?

I want to ask something: its often said in sj circles that if a marginalized person says something is "offensive", people who dont belong to that group should "sit and listen". Whats your opinion on this? Asking because Ive written posts explaining why I disagree with some criticisms against hazbin hotel.

ie "Vaggie is a racist latino stereotype cuz she feels anger". I personally think people should have the freedom to disagree.

Another question I want to ask: anti hazbns have also compared Angel Dust's design to Rcdart's trans cap, implying both are "equally transphobic". They are saying Angel's design is transphobic because of his chest. WHats your take on that?

See the problem with SocJus rhetoric of “listen to minorities” is that for every individual member of a minority group that does complain about something, there’s a dozen more who are at the very least don’t care/have more important things to worry about or at most think whatever the white liberal is bitching about is dumb.

Case in point: Viv herself is Latina and Bi and SHE MADE THE DAMN SHOW. And considering that Vaggie is from San Salvador like her AND the fact that again, Viv made her goddamn character to begin with, it stands to reason that she specifically made Vaggie the way she is on purpose not giving a damn about any stupid stereotype. In fact given Viv’s statements about the whole purpose of Hazbin being that it’s about flawed people becoming better, I dare say that Vaggie’s anger issues are supposed to be, gee I dunno, a CHARACTER FLAW FOR VAGGIE TO ADDRESS AND WORK ON or something!

Like holy shit, wow what a stereotype. Someone in a horrible environment surrounded by assholes who mock her and her girlfriend is frequently ANNOYED And ANGRY! How awful! How Racist! How dare Viv write Vaggie responding to situations like AN ACTUAL HUMAN BEING!

Would these clowns complain if Vaggie was anything else? Is it really that much of a fucking problem that Viv writes a character as an actual character instead of some milquetoast inoffensive checklist of traits that are approved by the Holy Church of Woke?

Because I guarantee you if Vaggie was anything else they would still nitpick her to death and find reason to complain. Vaggie’s Black? Oh no! Angry Black Woman! That’s a Stereotype! Vaggie’s White? Oh no! Angry White Woman! She’s a Karen, and that’s racist! I don’t know what the fuck they’d say if she were Asian or Native American but I promise you they’d pull something out of their asses. And when you’re in a game where it’s rigged so you lose no matter what, the only option is to not play and give the GM the finger. As for Angel Dust: that’s easy! He’s not Trans! He was never meant to be Trans! Otherwise Viv would’ve said so! I’m really goddamn tired of GNC people being assumed as trans by default when that’s a fallacious way of thinking and usually wrong, used by idiots to declare crossdressers like Angel, Naoto or Chihiro to be trans and ignoring all evidence to the contrary and getting peoples’ hopes up for disappointment! It’s stupid! and it needs to fucking STOP.

The difference is RCD has a fetish they try and badly fail to disguise as woke art when they were better off admitting they had a kink. Viv made a weirdo bustyboy twink spider demon because she wanted a weirdo bustyboy twink spider demon and never claimed otherwise!

#Discourse #disc horse #HH #Hazbin Hotel #chinesegal

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floatingbook · 3 years

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I recently found your blog and im in love with your writings. I guess I just needed to went about this. Anyway theres this female youtuber that I watched for a long time now. She makes good animal content and is an ornithologist. Her style of content is also right up my alley. (1)

But the thing is shes homophobic. I knew this for a while now but on one of her recent streams she explicitly stated how disgusted she found gay people using very popular homophobic slurs in our language (not English). And like I dont hate her or whatever. I like her content and even her personality vice. she herself is gnc in her style and is not married. she gets a ton of comments from men telling her how weird it is and she addressed it in multiple videos saying how stupid she finds it (2)

but like this whole thing makes it difficult to just enjoy bird and lizard videos lol. recently we also got a new professor at my Uni. and while she considers herself tolerant she said quite a few. homophobic things as well. like she said she'd kill her son if he was gay, jokingly. but whats funny in that? anyway I talked about this with my groupmate whos lesbian and she told me she hated this but tries to not pay attention to it. she thinks its best to just ignore it.(3)

and like I think shes right. we cant change anything about this, our country is very homophobic. so why pay attention to it? Im secure in myself anyway. but its still so difficult to just not thing about it and enjoy everything else.have you ever dealt with similar feelings? how did you cope with them? sorry for long message. im also a lesbian if it matters. (4)

No need to apologise for the length of your message, sister! I’m sorry you’ve had to face this; but which lesbian, sadly, doesn’t? It’s all too common for us to be faced with this kind of non-physically-harmful homophobia. And at first glance, we tend to discount it, yes. After all, we are “secure in [our]selves”, we know there’s nothing wrong with being lesbians, that we’re not ill or cursed or whatever nonsense. In the long run, and although it doesn’t do the same kind of damage as homophobic physical harm, I think it’s more worrying. Especially because it appears so harmless at first, such a matter of personal opinion — we can’t really change the way these people think, they’re always going to harbour those kinds of thoughts.

But even if you’re a proud lesbian and fine with yourself, it still makes you internalise the fact that homosexuality is somehow wrong. Of course being regularly exposed to that kind of ideas, of content, is going to affect your wellbeing. Even if it’s “just” a passing remark from a youtuber, or a “joke” from a university teacher, or an aunt sharing a bigoted stereotype about homosexuality, or a random individual being interviewed on TV during a conservative march, or a priest mentioning once in a while how you’re going to end up burning in hell just for existing. These comments can lead us to feel terrible about ourselves, straight into self-hatred. They also, whether we like it or not, create a hostile climate for us. It’s not healthy to exist in an environment where you know that people despise or outright hate you, even if they don’t know that you specifically are a lesbian. You’re always going to be wondering how your teacher would treat you if she somehow found out. Would she lower your grades? Would there be any kind of retaliation? For every homophobe who makes homophobic jokes or share any other type of homophobic position, there’s always the worry of escalation to physical harm. As a result, you’re always, even if not completely consciously, on the lookout.

I think the best thing to do with these people is to cut them out whenever possible. I know that you like that youtuber’s content, but you’re always going to be wondering in a corner of your mind “when is she going to be homophobic again”. I’m sure you can find other women talking about that kind of subject, and if not on youtube maybe in podcasts, in documentaries, or on blogs. It’s eminently frustrating to loose a source of information and entertainment, but you also have to take care of yourself, and sometimes that means removing homophobes from your life. Here, a reminder that it’s not your job to cure them of their homophobia. You don’t have to put up with them. Much in the same way that women don’t have to waste their time explaining to men how we are human beings deserving of rights and dignity and a life free of oppression too.

In the case of your uni teacher, you can’t do a lot but bear through it. It’s good that you’re not alone; support your fellow lesbian, and make sure that you don’t let the hate, however how casual, get you down. I don’t think it’s about “ignoring” it as much as not letting either despair or rage take up too much space. It’s normal to feel depressed that homophobia is so widespread, but you can try to balance it out with the knowledge, shared by many of your fellow lesbians, that being a lesbian is perfectly normal and even wonderful. Same for anger at the homophobia, it’s perfectly normal in the face of bigotry and hatred, but please make sure that you use your anger as fuel for positive action and don’t just let it simmer and fester into giving up and depression and helplessness.

We don’t have to be resigned to the homophobia. You can sensibilise your friends to the problem, and hopefully find people who’ll embrace you for who you are. You can move to less homophobic places; you can create lesbians clubs, gatherings or communities; if you are determined and want to play the game and work within the rules of the system, you can lobby and agitate for reforms to law to make your country less homophobic. We don’t have to tolerate homophobic people. There are some things on which we can refuse to compromise.

(same anon who wrote about female youtuber)also Goddammit these straight anons are so ridiculous. sorry for my language. how can they not see their privilege? literally the entire fucking world is telling you that relationships with men are good and pure and "correct" and you DARE to come to a LESBIANS blog and whine about a tiny group of lesbian women who tell you that maybe men aren't the end all be all im just so sorry for their stupidity sis.. crazy you still have to deal with this shit :/

I’m used to it, not that it’s pleasant, but yes, sometimes it’s baffling how little reading comprehension and self-awareness some people exhibit on here (and out there in the world). I hope you have a very pleasant week, anonymous sister, and that your lesbian friend does as well ;)

#anonymous #answered #thanks for the support sister #i hope you face less homophobia going forward #i wish the world was a better place #cue sad weary face #we can never catch a break #lesbophobia #homophobia

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