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horizon-verizon · 9 months

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What do you think Laena's and Daemon's relationship was?

*EDITED POST* (4/23/24)

Disclaimer: A Headcanon, bc We simply Don't Know The Deeper Stuff Apart from he loved her and she him.

I've said this before (Post #1 and Post#2 and Post#3), but I think not long after they met & married, they came to love each other platonically and romantically; that his motives for pursuing her were political as well as emotional/romantic/sexual.

A) HotD & Its Racism

Honestly, even in the original canon, the Velaryons lose a lot throughout their connection to the Targs and Corlys' ambition. However, HotD made some decisions that make them look less impressive or intelligent than was needed:

Laena not having her Vhagar-claim scene despite her saying over and over she wants to embody dragon-riding and her heritage for its own sake since she was 12 (Aemond is because he wants to prove himself against bastards) -- also her having that dragonrider pride Daemon has, yet that not being enough for him to love her?! How does this not also invalidate or throw into doubt the central ship these people are trying to push (Daemyra)?! Self contradictory.

her daughters not getting a glance from Daemon in that 7th episode (I could be tripping for this one, but idk)

Daemon's apparent "trouble" with Rhaena not having a dragon bond yet despite he himself not having claimed/bonded with Caraxes until he was in his late teens and how more likely it is for him to actually expressively encourage her to be okay with that and know how to do that/be persistent! [more on his fatherhood below]

Laena gets that self-immolating treatment (a common wife-riddance social tool in some cultures' literature and actual history) when dragon riders actually don't die often in fire nor is that even a desired death by anyone in canon. It's simply a flashier way to go and to provoke watchers while giving more pain to an already dying, lonely woman (as she wasn't surrounded by loved ones like in canon, and in Driftmark her childhood and ancestral home).

Laenor got punched up by a Kingsuard while becoming the next Prince Consort of a ruling Queen, and yet doesn't recompense through Criston's exile or death.

Laenor loses his lover to a nonsensically-allowed outburst of rage from Colon in the midst of his engagement feast. In canon, Choler kills Joffrey in what could be reasonably excused, at least, during a melee, where anyone could get killed in a competitive fury. Thus Cholera escaped death and punishment that way.

those wigs were just not it (being semi-facetious) and comparatively worse-laid than the ones for white actors

I did not like that we did not get more of Daemon giving her the respect he gave her in F&B concerning her desires to live in Driftmark when she explicitly said that she wanted her kids to grow up in her ancestral home when he himself has been clawing at the bit to live close to his own family...canonically. There is a clear difference in emotional support and care the writers or producers or whoever thought Laena would get from Daemon, and that partially comes from what they think of Daemon and the men of this world but with how they treated the Black characters thus far and with Laena's death, I can't help but see a racial bias at work as well.

(Watsonian) I didn't think that Daemon being more distant with Laena than he was/is w/Rhaenyra was about race while I was watching because in the HotD universe, (not the book or pre-HotD world of ASoIaF/original!) the Velaryons' Blackness does not seem to affect their in-world how other nobles in-world regard them nor the wider cope of prestige the Velaryons canonically had. Racism is not baked against the Velaryons from other houses. It simply isn't there. So "in-text" (text of the show that the writers think they are giving, not the book), Daemon is more distant from Laena bc she wants to live as a free dragon rider while he wants to lick his wounds and feels guilt for still wanting Rhaenyra. Again, this is what the writers tried to convey but fucked up because they wrote against the Velaryons as a whole as well as made Laena's death less emotionally impactful for both Rhaenyra and Daemon by removing the women's friendship.

We need to separate the show from the books, because the Velaryon women have been erroneously and sexistly rewritten. I talk about Laena HERE. And I don't mean that her blackness is the mistake; how they rewrote her relationship to Daemon. We only have their life together in a few scenes of one episodes, first of all, which constricts our understanding or the material for it to one episode that's shared with other characters. I this lone epsiode, we only get to see that despite Laena herself a prod dragonsrider of the dragon his dead father was bonded with and of the rider whose sword he carries, Daemon seem sto treat Laena or regard her more as a nag than a companion. They don't have moments of peace or simply enjoying each other's companies, too, without it going back to their public dragonriding performance, which coincidentally (not really) pushes Laena to try to make Daemon see reason to go back to KL. Meaninwhile, bk!Daemon makes the decisions himself and does what show!Daemon of episode 3 refuses to do and appeal to his brother Viserys so he can move the pregnant bk!Laena to Driftmark so she can do as what show!Laena wanted and have their kids grow up in the place she did. In the show, Daemon is upset and uncommunicative to his own daughter both before and after LAena dies, and some people argue that he's just too upset with the prospect of Rhaena not having had a hatched egg in infancy...meanwhile, not only does Daemon himself only bond with Caraxes until he's 16, MOST Targaryens/Targ-descents bond with a dragon in ther preteens to even adulthood! There's no reason for show!Daemon to feel as he does towards Rhaena.

And the show changing Daemon hugging his daughters to him just leaving them to cry is such a clear attempt to recharacterize Daemon and his relationships to his family a something much more dysfunctional than it was to coincidentally match deadbeat dad energy...bc apparently Daemon cannot feel as close connections to his black family as he can his white ones (Viserys and Rhaenyra)? that's the conclusion you very much can go to, since the writing simply makes no sense when we think abt the actual lore. "Oh, it's so hard for him bc he had all these grand ideas about dragonrider legacy and Rhaena not making her egg hatch messed that up"...I've had to listen to people claim that Daemon was not ignoring or mistreating Rhaena through neglect...I'm sorry but this makes bad parenting, NOT being a uwu babygirl! Your children should not have to experience emotional withdrawal from a disappointed parent and be left to feel as if you are the issue.

And yes, show!Daemon makes Rhaena feel like she is the issue bc if we say that he was disappointed that she's not a "proper" dragonrider, we are saying that he's not the issue, she is! We're more concerned about how Daemon's prospects are not aligning how he wants them instead of how he's performing his fatherly duties. We're practically encouraging deadbeat dadism, and why? Meanwhile, people get on about Rhaenyra beign a bad mom bc she "allowed" her sons to be born WHILE SIMULTAENOUSLY sayinf she shouldn't have left KL for Dragonstone even though she clearly wanted a better life for her and her sons away from Alicent's attempts to denigrate their positions at court. Fostering a more negative environment for those boys. Sure....

Why all this change, and towards the negative?! And why do so many fans love it so much?! I am a Daemyra fan, but really, I don't need Daemon to hate every women he's married to for the sake of the ship. The ship, to me, stands on its own. And GRRM confirms it many times. If you need a ship to be discriminatory (in terms of making its adapted version more fraught with discord), then you probably have some bigoted shit or ideas about relationships to work through. Or the ship itself is logically unfeasible even with all the fanons made for it, and you are desperate to make up for it.

I think that along with the racism that just "automatically" governing the reasoning for the writers in regards to the Velaryons, they also wanted to make Daemyra that much more central for marketing value. The hot OTP couple made even hotter for all our consumerist needs.

B) Fire and Blood

That being said, I read F&B before the show existed. The changes I mentioned above (apart form the Velaryons becoming black) didn't need to exist at all. Laena and Daemon of canon had their own secure, unique, and charming relationship.

At the same time, while I do very much believe that Daemon and Laena loved each other (I already gave an example of him writing to Viserys above) before the show, I never thought Daemon fell in love with Laena or first pursued her for her personality and bearing alone. Similar to how he loved Rhaenyra and her him for some ideas of their political roles.

After they marry, they spend a year together traveling and in the next year, they stay at Pentos for Laena to give birth and to take care of their twins before going back to Westeros-Driftmark, where they eventually build a life with Rhaenyra for the rest of their marriage (1-2 years). In all, they were married for 4 or so years.

I believe that with Laena, Daemon became a real father of action and practice and settled; Laena lived her happiest, freest days. But as I said in this post about him maybe marrying and fucking Rhaenyra not long after Laena's death--just from the biased, unforthcoming, short, undetailed account of people who were not there to witness Daemon-Laena at Pentos and the rest of Essos...they canonically did not seem to have quite the same potency--that je nais se quois--for each other as much as Laena had for their kids and Vhagar/dragon-riding and Daemon for the Targ-Valyrian heritage, their kids, Viserys, and Rhaenyra. However, we don't get a lot of detail/as much detail as even the already -not-very-elucidated relationship b/t Daemyra for Laena x Daemon in-text, so make of that what you will. 🤷🏻‍♀️

For me, it's not about Laena being inferior, it's just about someone else being what you would have chosen if you had a chance bc that bond was strong and it matched your core needs as well as critical desires. It wasn't about "second choice" so much as different type of connections and timing.

Again, could just be the fault of lack of access to them as they lived and traveled. It easily could just be that Daemon was very loving and affectionate and attentive to her, and by his letter to Viserys it very much seemed so. (I am one of those who believes that Rhaenyra also really loved Harwin...it's just that Daemon was what she had in her heart for years until both of their deaths, she could live her own version of a freer life with Daemon [she could never be "out" with Harwin and she wasn't keen on giving up her throne], they were well matched, and it wouldn't take much for her to settle into a life with him.)

I think Daemon was sexually attracted to Laena in the beginning, liked she was a dragon rider like himself and thus could pass on that legacy and ability to their kids, got to know her and liked her, and her being of close family blood and a Velaryon and made the whole thing sweeter. At the same time, I just never thought of Laena/Harwin being those people Daemon or Rhaenrya choosing to be with if they had that freer choice. Even though it reads as the "healthiest" to some people for Daemon--Harwin for Rhaenyra. Yeah, it works for you and what you want for the characters/people in general, but what about who these characters are (as long as no one is being abused, and no one was in the orig Daemyra)?!

Account of Daemon and Laena Before Leaving Westeros:

Why Daemon Killed the Son of Braavos for Laena/Wanted Her

They had met for only a few weeks tops? I mean lightning strikes and rarities and all that, it's possible he did fall in love or develop limerence or whatever for Laena in this period of time. She, him? Sure. But...it certainly doesn't hurt that he, as a Targ, manages to bring the Velaryons closer to his family through his marriage and I don't think this was far from his head when he planned what he planned with Corlys.

I think Daemon fought for her/killed her betrothed because:

he wanted to get closer to both/either Rhaenyra & Viserys to aid in any political upheaval/add his own sword/reputation (Driftmark is really just a dragon's flight away from either Dragonstone or KL)

(another "partnership" with the salty, still-grumbling Corlys) it is one way to get back at Viserys for Mysaria's exile/his loss of a child--the rebellion/self affirmation deal again--this girl who Viserys rejected wills till birth technical heirs to the throne through Daemon

it gets the Velaryons/Corlys even more on the Targ side and their interests bc their kids are officially Targaryens as well as potential heirs/claimants of the Velaryon seat

Laena was gorgeous. And he was definitely attracted to her and her manner (movements, bearing, attitude), and I think this was the draw/icing on the cake. She already had an adventurous, bold spirit which is what he was already attracted to and this is why she and Rhaenyra likely first were endeared to each other and how got along so well. She bonded and flew Vhagar before she ever went into her teens.

Laena is a Valyrian-descent dragon rider, one who rode the mighty Vhagar -> impressive and prideworthy to have such a spouse for their connections to your own history (part of the point of feudal marriages), and a good deterrent/speed stops for those greens.

Some of these could be bonafide plans and intentions...some or all could be thoughts and strong feelings as he acts or circles in his mind as he interacts with various Velaryons.

The Other Lords and Ladies of Westeros

Reasons 1, 2, & 4 are enough to explain why Daemon would feel "passionate" about winning Laena's hand and killing her betrothed. He doesn't really care about people outside of the family he recognizes nor about what people outside of his even smaller circle think about him as long as it fulfills his purposes. His reputation as a fearsome, unpredictable wild card serves him, and he got it by not adhering to much Andal-Westerosi mores of behavior and restraint or caring what people thought of such behavior as long as it didn't blow back hard against Viserys or Rhaenyra. His willingness to kill: setting up an army for Viserys before the Council ever happened, his "work" in the Stepstones, his brutal handling of the accused rapists, thieves, and killers in KL while being Commander of the City Watch. Why wouldn't he kill Laena's betrothed even if he didn't "love" her at first sight if he expected and observed what I already listed above?

Getting criticized for killing him is not enough of a hypothetical deterrent for Daemon in his considerations to marry Laena or not.

The Sealord's son had even less connection to any Westerosi house by the time his Sealord father died and he himself started to drain his own family's funds for stupid stuff. Daemon was willing to butcher and maim several people in KL in the name of the King's "peace" and he got some flack for it; even though those KL people were commoners versus the Sealord's son having been of nobler birth, the Sealord's son wasn't favored or very familiar amongst those at Driftmark...at least positively. We have to remember that in the negotiation w/Corlys, Corlys likely gave the okay or would have to be okay with Daemon killing this guy, which may give Daemon (for what little trepidation he may have had) more incentive to say "Let's do it" and expect even less backlash or criticism from others. If he made other nobles' criticism/side-eye/disapproval the only or primary consideration to kill or not kill the Braavosi guy, then their observance of how Corlys allowed Daemon to marry his daughter with little to no protest (in lieu of their suspicions of Daemon being ambitious for himself) would also be good enough for Daemon to "risk" actual practical disadvantages in killing this guy. If Corlys doesn't care, they have less right to protest--because he, the house leader and lord under whom both the son and Daemon were receiving guest rights--allowed it (asked for it in some theories) and there was no backup from Braavos for this same son of a Sealord. Daemon instigated the conflict between him and the son by insulting the kid many times for him to "defend his honor" and walk into getting killed. And it was definitely on purpose because it was still a fight that would have been recognized as a real duel because it was about keeping one's honor and public respect. There didn't seem to be actual laws against or for duels from the monarchy at any time in Westerosi history, which means that the only sort of enforcement or limitations or punishments for duels & their results were the local lord's allowance, whether the men followed through, public opinion, and the host lord's powers.

Kinda like how Daemon and Rhaenyra married so soon after Laena's death, Daemon dueling this Braavosi kid was considered in extremely poor taste. It certainly made more/others fear him, but also a part of this feudalist social fabric of militarism and machismo AND Daemon, in my view, likely would have been fine/indifferent to glad of it because he wants to make others think twice before going against him and the other Targs or immediate family.

While he would have known of Laena before he met her 23-yr old self, I don't think they hung out enough before for him to suddenly want her for her. Again, the guy places his closest family above all, and while Laena is his cousin's child:

he did not grow up with her

she is a Velaryon daughter of the ambitious Corlys who still wouldn't see Viserys very well (but perhaps Daemon was fine witht hat since he also wasn't fond of Viserys then)

and he did not spend much time around her as much as he did Rhaenyra

Therefore, all people could really do is talk about a guy they already either loved or feared. And that they were concerned with how Daemon, in their suspicions, messed around with the preconditions of a duel by purposefully killing this Braavosi for his own gain and without fear of getting reproached for messing with said "rules". What was there to fear, for Daemon and from his perspective?

But again, I think this was all a blip to Daemon when he was thinking and planning on marrying Laena.

It's possible that Daemon would rather not induce make Viserys blow all the way up by marrying Laena Viserys' reaction. However, they already had a contentious relationship after Daemon did whatever he did with Rhaenyra, which Viserys likely saw as a power grab for Daemon's sake alone. Because Viserys ruined Daemon's chance to have his first son with Mysaria.

But actually, marrying Laena brings the Velaryons more into the fold while Daemon has his little "revenge" against Viserys for a bit by marrying Laena. Viserys allow them back quite easily.

Why? Corlys and the Velaryons and Viserys need to be on their good side for his own reputation, that fake "harmony" he thinks is necessary to hold the dynasty together, peace of mind (Rhaenys being passed over and Corlys still being likely salty about it), and Rhaenyra's support. Their marriage was Corlys' decision. Viserys also can't really protest against the marriage as much as the Sealord's son being killed.

What About the Singers?

On the one hand, their songs or claims about Daemon falling instantly in love with Laena at first sight and wanting her for her could be an amplification or an exaggeration of the observable, genuine attraction he had for her. Because it's not what they or what his reputation allows them to imagine from him.

Or it could be a way for these singers to spread the news of Daemon's "changed"/"changing ways" by Corlys to give/amplify this marriage a veneer of sentimentality and diminish whatever outrage against it, a way to diminish the suspicions of this being a typical political allowance. We remember that singers and bards often entertained local lords at dinners and gatherings and wrote songs in their honor or whomever they thought would get them in good with the lord and any/particular ones in the future. "The Rains of Castamere" was definitely, at least, encouraged by Tywin Lannister to add and build his own reputation. And such was the practice of real-life troubadours of medieval France/Normandy and bards of other Western/Italian regions.

Could be both.

I do also find it a nice narrative contrast to observe RhaenyraxDaemon versus LaenaxDaemon in how well-reported the respective emotional connections were. Daemyra has more suggestive pieces while Laena and Daemon have the singers and Daemon's reaction to Laena dying (more explicit pieces).

After Wedding

Because of the personalities they had and their going well together, they definitely grew closer after they married.

The way Daemon carried her to her bed and was distraught after her death seems enough to show how much he cared. He also quickly wrote to Viserys directly so he could safely move back to Westeros after they had their dragon twins. And they definitely flew together both in Essos and Westeros. These are the things explicitly said about him and Laena in canon and they imply great care, interest, and respect. Which indicates and proves his love for her.

At the same time, I also think that Daemon still desired & yearned for Rhaenyra in all of his marriage to Laena. Marriages don't cancel out long-time deep connections and attractions to others, esp when they start out political. That would take time and maybe some personality changes.

Like how some theorize Ned loving Ashara Dayne and wanting to marry her then moving on with Catelyn, Ned totally and surely reorient themselves to love their new spouse for the sake of their future happiness and because they genuinely see their spouses' qualities, but it's not a guarantee and takes TIME. Ned is not Daemon, who not only is more willful but is also a proud Targ prince of emotion who's been suspected of trying to kill/undermine his own family for power for years.

#asoiaf asks to me #laena velaryon #daemon targaryen #laena and daemon #asoiaf shipping #canon shipping #laena velaryon's characterization #daemon's characterization #fire and blood characters #hotd critical #laena x daemon (F&B ship)#FIRE AND BLOOD #asoiaf parenthood #fandom racism #asoiaf #fire and blood #hotd #cradle bond

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the-whumpening · 22 days

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Worldbuilding Wednesday #3

Today’s Topic: The Fae Court (not the cats)

There’s a ton more to the Fae Courts beyond the King of Cats, naturally. A few big names have been mentioned already, so I thought I’d take a minute to explain how to Fae world works in this universe.

Where It All Started

Magic in this world is described as part of the “fabric” of reality. Magic scholars refer to it as “The Weave.” Aunt Marjorie, as we call her, is the Mother of All Hags, the Fae Queen, the embodiment of The Weave itself. She typically appears as a kindly old woman (and the hags aren’t quite as bad as their name suggests.) All magic comes from her like thread unraveled from a tapestry. If you want more power—access to more magic—she’s the one who will ultimately make that decision and allow it to flow to you.

Aunt Marjorie created all magical creatures as well (either directly or by proxy.) Three of those creatures share in the responsibility to rule the Fae Wilds and all of creation: Titania, Oberon, and Mab.

Mab, as we discussed before, is the Queen of Air and Darkness—Queen of the Unseelie Court. Her domain is personified as winter, decay, all things creepy and morbid, and certain animals like cats and crows. Many of her subjects would be considered monsters and “evil” creatures, but it would be misleading to say that she and her court are evil by default. In this canon, Mab is essentially a goth hottie who can sap your life-force through touch. Kane hugged her and nearly passed out; somehow, they hooked up and Kane managed to not die!

Titania would generally be considered the “opposite” of Mab. She rules the Summer Court, also called the Seelie Court. As you might expect, she’s the one characterized by growth and birth and all the good things in nature. Golden-haired and tan and a little bright to look at—you get the idea. She’s not overly involved in this story.

Oberon, however, is particularly important. He is Titania’s sort-of-brother-slash-husband? Idk, it’s vague. But he is the Lord of Beasts, so all animals are technically under his purview. He’s a real stinker; he loves to play tricks and shapeshift. Notably, he appeared to Evius as a handsome elf man and wriggled his way into Evius’ good graces. They had a bit of a fling prior to his relationship with Ash, in which Evius became a warlock of Oberon and received some additional powers. (More on that in Evius’ “Meet the Character” post next week!) Oberon is very often associated with a white deer/antlers and the color green. He’s not really bad or good morally, more self-serving than anything. But he finds Ozmund insufferable and cocky, and he’s made it his mission to annoy him at every opportunity.

All three of the Fae royals are essentially “made” of the Weave, almost like magical constructs. They are a part of Aunt Marjorie, but also her children; independent creatures with independent thought, but ultimately under her control at a fundamental level.

Ozmund, at some point in his long life, made a deal with Aunt Marjorie: his soul, in exchange for more power. We don’t know all the specifics of this deal, but we do know that without his soul, Ozmund cannot be truly killed. He had hoped he could trade Evius’ soul for his own—forcing Evius to take the consequences for his deal—before Oberon dropped the news that it already belonged to him. This is the falling out that caused Evius and Ozmund to immediately become enemies.

#whumpblr #whump writing #whump community #writeblr #dnd whump #ash and evius #tigerverse #worldbuilding wednesday #worldbuilding #lore dump #whumblr

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thethirdromana · 2 months

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Thinking about today's Woman in White some more... it strikes me that at this point everything would more-or-less be OK if everyone could just agree to chill out about it.

Mr Kyrle makes it clear that the money is gone. Even if Laura could prove that she's still alive, she's not getting it back. She could get her inheritance from Mr Fairlie, when he eventually dies at the age of 103. But in the short term, the cost of legal fees would outweigh anything she might be able to get back from Sir Percival.

So in pursuing Sir Percival, all that she/Walter can get is justice. Which is valuable, but mostly symbolic. And while Fosco warns Marian away from Walter, it's surely also in his interest for Walter and Laura to settle down quietly together and never bother him or Sir Percival again. That seems less risky, long-term, than confining Laura to a lunatic asylum forever.

Between whatever Walter can earn and Marian's savings, I think they can still lead a reasonably comfortable life. Even at the moment, the implication is that they don't have a servant for fear of detection, not because it's unaffordable.

Marian is poorer to the tune of her bribe to the nurse, but that money is also gone either way.

Laura's marriage to Sir Percival is legally ended (because she's legally dead). Under a new identity, she's free to remarry. So it's all good in the eyes of the law. I don't know how this works in the eyes of God? It's strongly implied that Laura's marriage to Sir Percival wasn't consummated, so maybe it could be annulled? I have no idea how this would work in the 1850s Church of England when one party is legally dead. Presumably it didn't come up that often.

It seems to me that there's not much difference in practice between Laura declaring marriage #1 a write-off and marrying Walter, and Laura being declared alive again, formally divorcing Sir Percival, and then marrying Walter.

In fact, the former might be better, because if the marriage was consummated, then Laura would probably not be able to get a divorce that would allow her to remarry in Sir Percival's lifetime, or not without very considerable expense and a private Act of Parliament. Easier divorce was only possible after the Matrimonial Causes Act 1857, and the Woman in White is set in 1850.

But maybe Laura would feel that not being fully, formally divorced from Sir Percival would render any subsequent relationship with Walter adulterous? That seems in character for her.

Idk, they are clearly not going to leave well alone, in either direction. But it seems to me that right now, Sir Percival has the money and Laura has her freedom, which is all either of them wanted anyway.

#woman in white weekly

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enneamalia · 5 months

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Heathers Enneagram:

Veronica: 4w3

Heather Chandler: 3w2

Heather Duke: 3w4

Heather MacNamara: 6w7

JD: 1w9

Martha: 9w1

Notes:

Veronica and JD are both most definitely in the idealist triad, it’s part of the reason why their relationship is the way that it is and why JD was able to get so far before Veronica stopped him. The idealism is core to their identities which is part of the reason why i don’t agree with the common read of Veronica as a core 5

I can see both disintegration to 2 and integration to 1 in Veronica’s character arc (her relationships with JD and Heather C are where the 2 disintegration shows the most while her courage and bravery to take charge and do what’s right at the end shows the 1 integration). she craves the drama and intensity her relationships with JD and the Heathers bring to her life which is a very VERY strong sign of a 4 (ie craving the full breadth of human experience and emotions, including the bad parts because it makes her feel alive). she feels the need to set herself apart from her peers, mentioning how she feels everyone around her is shallow and mean (and in the cafeteria scene in the movie she clearly resents how fake her classmates are). the first thing that she notices about JD is that he’s different from others and she likes that about him. she’s looking for deeper human connection in JD because her time with the Heathers makes her feel like she can’t really be herself. she’s also got that type 4 sarcastic sense of humor, one of the most memorable parts of her character. in the musical she absolutely has the 3 wing but i could probably read her as a 4w5 for the movie if i wanted to

JD obviously has delusions of grandeur and i can see him being typed as a 3 or 4 if that’s the only thing you pay attention to. personally i feel that his motivations are a warped sense of right and wrong w/ a very strict black and white view on morals. he sees himself as a hero and thinks that it’s his personal duty to right the wrongs of society (even though he goes about it in an extremely messed up way, that is what he believes). the combination of those things with his repeated insistence that he’s incredibly broken makes me type him as a 1 who has disintegrated to 4. also i can’t see him as anything other than idealism triad and gut triad (he’s got that signature brand of type 1 rage that often gets people mistyping as 8s)

Debated 3w4 vs 3w2 for Duke for a while but i think the way she allowed herself to take the backseat to Chandler and also her themes of jealousy lend to the 4 wing more. literally could not be anything other than a core 3 so i’m not even going into that

Originally had Chandler typed as an 8 but after reviewing type 8’s fears and desires i don’t think it quite fits. yes she wants power but she seems to be more motivated by everyone else thinking that she’s impossibly hot and in a league above them all. there’s a bit of grandiosity about it, she wants to be viewed as a god. 8s don’t really care about what other people think of them and are much more individualistic. i still think an 8 reading of her character is not impossible but i am leaning more towards 3

MacNamara is very obviously a 6, her themes of loyalty and being willing to do anything to have a group to belong to are very 6 motivations. she’s played as a noticeably anxious character in the stage adaptation and i think her 6ness is more solid in the musical than the movie. 7 wing based entirely on vibes idk

Went back and forth between 9w1 and 2w1 for a bit with martha and honestly i still don’t really know but i think her whole being in love with the idealized version of some guy she barely knows for years gives me more 9 than 2. also her biggest desire is just to “be happy” which i interpret as desiring that whole inner peace thing. in kindergarten boyfriend she describes a cute idyllic fantasy which reminds me of the fantasies and inner world of a 9. she just gives the effect of being a 9 that could easily be mistyped as a 2. but i’m not 100%

#heathers #enneagram

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prettyboykatsuki · 2 years

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im not the best with articulating words so i hope this doesnt come off awful or too controversial but like … i have trouble with anger and saw parts of my childhood in bkg's story & i AM trying to control the anger, bettering myself etc etc & seeing the immediate demonization of bkg & the fact that they want him to face awful types of punishment is so… uncomfy?

like , i hope these mfs never meet someone who genuinely struggles with anger bc god knows what they'd say/do to them. idk maybe its just a sore topic for me & im lowk overreacting but >_<...

i don't think it sounds shitty at all, dw. i think it just brings up a point about how people can't really handle characters that lack moral uprightness a lot of the time lol.

there are a lot of elements that make people hate bakugou. but i think people who despise or dislike him often display a pretty common thing among anime fans which is that they can't forgive characters who don't embody strictly good choices and softness.

there's this idea of "who deserves a redemption" arc that the bnha fandom debates a lot and it sets up this idea that redemption is something to be deserved as opposed to the intrinsic next step to anyone who's trying to better themselves.

bakugou was an asshole since childhood pretty much indisputably. aside from the people who are very obviously projecting themselves into the bkdk relationship - i think his character forces people to confront the idea that people are capable of changing and that everyone is going to have a different relationship to an individual over time.

they're more interested in upholding dekus victimhood because it's a clean way to settle that narrative and allows them moral highground. acknowledging not only that bakugou has suffered consequence and changed, forces them to uproot the black and white idea of good and bad that they've developed around him and his behavior.

a common thread with people who hate bkg is the belief that people who have caused harm in any way should suffer indefinitely without taking in any other nuance. you see it all the time in threads. to them, there's no amount punishment that would satisfy the urge to see him suffer.

and that's because they're not actually interested in seeing bakugou or anyone else for that matter, change. moralizing his anger and ignoring his development is pretty much the crux of that.

and it is kinda of offputting to think about how they would handle a person trying to better themselves in real life or if they're of the belief people are born with a certain moral righteousness and goodness and that any stray from that is worthy of punishment. it's all kind of puritanical.

#return to sender #characterization tag #i know its hard to believe but i dont mind when people hate or dislike bakugou #like we likely wont be buddy buddy but hes an asshole and kind of insufferable #but pretty consistently with people who identify as a/nti b/kg is a moralization around his anger despite it being a secondary emotion #they ignore his characterization and even any attempt to change to fulfill a revenge fantasy that i find kind if disturbing?#idk lol #ive read a lot of anti bkg stuff and am someone who openly loves characters who are actually /just/ irreedemable for narrative purposes #but i just dont think bakugou warrants that lmao

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puppbun · 10 months

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Doing that Assumption this because I this it's fascinating and quite brave of you. I only went back like 9 days/ You post alot but so far I have gather this.

You may be shy or easily flustered. You enjoy waiting for your pleasure, especially if the wait makes it more intense or someone benefits from seeing you struggle. You may like overstim. You seem pretty submissive with a great need to please that some ppl may take for granted. You're people pleaser nature may make it difficult for you to say no. You may either be touch starved or have a love language of physical touch, words of affirmation though this may fight with you love of humiliation and degradation kinks, and quality time. You may be selective with who you welcome into your personal space but enjoy that person was they are there even if you aren't able to verbalize it often. You like puns, prop comedy, and situational funnies ( Idk how to explain this). Physical indicators,smell body temp, etc of attraction are enjoyed by you and I believe are meant to point to not being on a hormonal contraceptive ( though that may be a bit too invasive. and typing it now does feel low key creepy). You probably prefer moderate temps with light breezes and mild frost for which you can wear sweaters but don't have to deal with intense cold. You're open to BDSM and kink positive, even with those that may not resonate with you. You enjoy when ppl are open honest with there kinks if they are comfortable with that. You enjoy ownership and may prefer a caretaker/little or pet dynamic. You may like sense deprivation and may enjoy giving complete control over to your partner, trusting that they will know your limits. You may prefer t4t relationships. You don't mind getting hurt for loved ones. You enjoy liberal affection and would prefer blurred lines between lovers and friends. You may enjoy politics but not for debate but for the way it may explain universal human experiences as you care greatly about social welfare(as if how well humans are doing). You are climate conscious and may enjoy green spaces[not sure what I meant here. maybe you like plants or hiking. idk]. You are an artist. You're a furry and may have interesting views on humanity and what makes someone human. [I best explained this to myself as if you were playing Detroit Becoming Human you would be on the side of the androids. If you've read Sophie's World you probably would have cried at the end when Sophie asks you not to close the book so she can live]. With this vein of thought you would be open to a non human relationship if that person was able to pass the are they a human test. You are a monster fucker/fuckee. You may have struggled with depression, anxiety, and imposter syndrome. Including things like burn out, executive dysfunction, or procrastination. You like music, art and anime. You may even like to sing or at least have a really great appreciation for music, song writing or catchy tunes. You support piracy and recreational drug use whether for you or others if they choose so. You're against censorship. You like pink and fluffy things and white furniture because you want to color/design it. You may learn towards erotic text over images, but you most likely do consume hentai and it's derivatives. You may enjoy exhibition. You really like art and may even enjoy playing games. You may believe in spirituality but not religion as you may come from a highly religious area or family. Overall reads shy at first until comfortable. Very kind as in afraid to impose on others because you may not feel like you are allowed to do that. A good, caring friend that enjoys little knick knacks and understand how ppl view things.

Hope you enjoy my random assumptions about you. I thought this was fun and played detective as if you were a book character. Hope you don't mind or feel offended. I will say though at some point it seemed like I was just making up shit but like I guess that's what assumptions are.

Peace out and have an amazing day.

wahhh- okay so this is a lot-

honestly ive had to reread it a few times becuase i thought I was making stuff up as i was reading it but you are reallyREALLY accurate??? >/////<

Thank you again for the ask! <3

#puppanswers

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sunflowerdigs · 2 years

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My Mid-Season Thoughts on Lucas and Erica

I started writing up a general critique of the season so far, but it ended up being a rant about Lucas and Erica, so I'm posting that part on it's own. This is also an explanation of why I don't feel bad loving Billy as a character while also being black and hoping Lucas finally gets used appropriately (lol, idk why I don't give up on that).

As usual, Lucas doesn't have a storyline that makes much sense with his character, since he has basically been reduced to Max's boyfriend, where the whole point of him is caring about her no matter how shitty she is to him. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely room in Hollywood for a trope reversal like that, but doing it with a black guy and a white girl isn't a reversal, it's just reinforcing the racist idea that black characters are only as relevant as they are helpful to moving the stories of white characters forward. Lucas wants to be popular? Since when? Since they needed a way to give Mike that conflict? They could have made a really meaningful statement about the basketball court being one of the only places where black men felt respected and loved in the 80's (and, honestly, today) and woven that into Lucas's story, maybe given him a more compelling reason to be pulling away from his white friends. Because black kids in almost all-white small towns have valid reasons for doing that in high school, particularly in the 80's. They also could have integrated Lucas's parents and relatively peaceful, upper middle class homelife into his conflict with Max, shown that the class difference between them was more keenly felt than ever now that she lives in a trailer park. Like...is it really so expensive to consistently bring on actors to show us that Lucas has a family like all of the white kids do, that he isn't just this little black boy who shows up out of nowhere to help out the white protagonists and then vanishes? Couldn't we have seen his parents at the basketball game (like we would have seen Dustin's or Mike's or Will's or even Eleven's) cheering for him? I know the Duffers have been roundly criticized for this oversight, and it seems like, rather than remedy it, they're just doubling down on the racism. Lucas has no family but his white peers, while his white peers, meanwhile, have meaningful relationships with decently fleshed-out parental figures. Ok, whatever.

This is also why I can't take claims about people violently hating Billy for his racism very seriously. The show is racist in the way that it treats Lucas. And, fwiw, it's also racist in the way that it treats Erica. She talks way too tough for her age. It feels like they wanted to introduce a sassy, tough-talking black woman stereotype but didn't want to deal with black female sexuality on a mostly-white show (have to round her out as a character so one of the white protagonists could actually find her sexy? No way!), so they shoved a black woman into the body of a child (very inappropriate), so they could get the easy, uncomplicated laughs. Think about it - we've seen Eleven at Erica's age, and she had gone through many more horrible things. Was she as cynical or world-weary? Does it really make sense that Erica's characterization is so much more informed by those traits than that of a girl who has actually killed people and been involved in government research?

In addition, because white men are intimidated by black men (in the sense that men are always more intimidated by other men than they are women and then the racial component is added on top), there's often this tendency in Hollywood to promote "strong" black female characters at the expense of black male characters. Think of the sassy, loud black woman character who constantly emasculates her black husband/boyfriend/son with her cruel wit in ways that white female characters simply would never be allowed to emasculate white male characters. White male creators will back this characterization up with a deliberately non-intersectional version of feminism so that they can act like what they're doing is woke. But typically (and this is true of Stranger Things so far), there isn't any actual interest in developing the black female character or understanding her on an emotional level (in part because this would mean acknowledging the complexity of the role that the black male character likely plays in her life, which would mean acknowledging the basic humanity of both black characters, which white men don't want to do), which belies any claim about feminism. I see shades of this in Erica and Lucas' relationship and I really don't love it.

Anyway, I never hear a peep about any of these issues out of people who claim to be oh so concerned about Billy's racism. I'm not even talking about meta, I'm talking about just basic curiosity about how black fans feel about these two characters and why and what can be done to help. But no, it's always just some virtue-signaling crap about "you have to hate Billy because he's racist" and then silence on any issue that would denote an actual understanding of racism or sense of caring about it. As a black fan, I decided a long time ago just not to take Stranger Things seriously on any storyline pertaining to race because they weren't really interested in exploring that angle of anything well or in any depth. When I stack up the value of simply dismissing Billy over some tacked-on, shoddy, paint-by-numbers level acknowledgement of "oh yeah, racism existed in the 80's and it was Bad" vs appreciating the ways in which his character is an excellent deconstruction of white hegemonic toxic masculinity and its effects on sensitive young boys and the ways in which they relate to the world, it's no contest - Billy's characterization stands out as much, much more valuable and interesting than some flat, blanket rejection of everything about him based on a principal that the creators aren't interested in and don't care about.

Maybe all of this will change in the next 3 episodes, idk. But I'm not holding my breath.

#lucas sinclair #erica sinclair #racism #stranger things spoilers #stranger things 4 #st4 #st4mine #billy hargrove

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batboyblog · 2 years

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hello @queerarrow thanks so much for taking the time to comment on my thoughts, it was interesting and I wanted to address some of them here:

Two things I don't think gay media is lacking in hope or joy focused stories? The movie Love, Simon comes to mind, where his coming out is supported by his mom with a lovely speech, it ends with a Ferris wheel romantic moment and the final scene is Simon with his friend group in the car now plus boyfriend getting their morning coffee as an upbeat squad. There for sure is a narrative about gay media being a downer but I think thats a little disingenuous, and feels like again the conversation around Heartstopper is trying to take advantage of that narrative to sell itself as the "only" hopeful and positive gay YA story.

thing two is... I don't think they do deal with problems in a hopeful way? which maybe is different from focusing on hope and joy? The only serious issue they really focus on is bullying and how do they deal with it? Charlie quits, he leaves the Rugby team? something we're shown him enjoying, but once a bully shows up he quits gives up, leaves. He doesn't show that he a skinny gay boy can do rugby even though he's not "supposed to" as gay boy, it doesn't show that the team rallies to support Charlie against a homophobic bully (that'd be hopeful) it should Charlie walking out of Rugby and indeed not even for himself but for Nick. Charlie hasn't learned anything across the show, he's still putting a boy's needs/happiness over his own, just like with Ben. Then Nick also "quits" (or walks out of Sports day, idk how British school works, but the implication was he quit Rugby) so the hopeful and joy filled way they deal with the serious issue of bullying is to... run away? to allow the bully to get what he wants? (no queers in sports) I agree that the visuals and narrative focus on the positive side of the scene, ie that Charlie and Nick are together and Nick picked Charlie over sports.

I think people often frame it as an either or, I don't think anyone is saying Nick and Charlie need to be getting it on. Only the show doesn't do a very good job of showing thats something they might want to do at some point? The kissing is very cautious, demure, and polite, now that might be the actors maybe they were not comfortable really macking on each other, or putting hands on hips or into back pockets etc. But the result is there's a lot of romance without a lot of desire. Which links back to Ben, narratively I think we can all agree Ben going through all the trouble of sneaking around with Charlie and Charlie going through all the trouble for 3 second chased kisses doesn't make a whole lot of sense, particularly as we are shown clearly later that Ben does not respect Charlie in general and his boundaries in particular. And I think it's troubling that the gay character who is the most sexualized, Ben, is also very rapey since a long standing stereotype of gay men is that we're sexually dangerous and untrustworthy.

I mean I hope they do do something, I'm unsure what they could do to turn Ben into a real character rather than a cartoon villain, and given the over all black white morality of the show's thinking I have doubts, plus it does kinda feel like a damage done thing. But yeah they have two more seasons to add a little complexity to his character, maybe explain why Charlie "went out with him" at all since the narrative need to make sure Charlie wasn't "cheating" really destroyed any kind of relationship they. might have had.

So there's a thing in storytelling called "show, don't tell" which is we the readers or viewers should see what we're being told about. Don't have a character say "he was so freaking tall!" have us slowly pan upward along a very tall man. Any ways we're told about Elle's trans experiences, all of which have to do with bullying and abuse for being trans (again not very joyful..) but we don't see them. Indeed a friend of mine missed the line about the transphobic teacher, and picked up the line about her hair when she's talking to the girls. And my friend, being black, assumed the bullying and school switch was about her being a black girl with big natural hair, a common problem black girls face (hair bullying that is). So he thought she was a cis girl for like 4-5 episodes. And indeed if you changed the reason she was bullied, literally turn "transphobe" into "racist" with ADR, nothing would change for Elle's story. I mean it's cool a trans actress got a role on a big show, and I think it's cool in general terms to have a trans friend in a friend group and it be not be a big deal thats cool. But it's pretty clear that the show either didn't want to or didn't know how to tell an explicitly trans story/love story for Elle and Tao and basically avoiding any of the emotional or psychological road blocks either of them feel about falling in love/dating.

#Heartstopper #Ben Hope #meta #gay stuff

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swarmkeepers · 3 years

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thinking about offscreen growth and the role of fanon in characterization, in particular re: ricky matsui specifically wrt zac oyama saying in the tuc1 behind the scenes that “all the characters had some sort of secret past or just some really interesting arc...and ricky for the most part had nothing like that. and so really of everyone he probably is the most similar from start to finish”

#sola said #but i CANNOT think about this right now it is fully finals week anyway i am gonna put a pin in this and probably write smth more about it #after the finale/after this week but this is a reminder to myself ig #anyway not that word of god from actors/creators is the end all be all #but i do think it's interesting #a) when you DO think within that frame and go like. yeah ricky can be a lil flat/not have a huge arc/not be hiding some secret suffering #and then go. so why is he still compelling. what does that mean.#like esp bc i think of ricky AS a japanese-american character a lot like #yeah! sometimes you don't cry over your diaspora experience sometimes you do get to have that all-american childhood #and it's through no small work at all. it's devotion and heritage that's not a dark secret or even a source of small shame but it's.#so everyday it hurts and it's just there and you literally will never be able to repay it bc that's not the point it's just a thing you Know #but also b) the fanon of ricky is so transformative and like.#my experience at least is that if it weren't for the fanon love of/rooting for ricky he'd be so much less compelling to me as a character #like how/why is the hottest luckiest man in new york so easy to root for and not to resent alsdkfj #and also just. it's just so interesting imho how ricky is. not ooc. but altered by canon #and which parts. and why #ANYWAY i said i wouldn't spend more time on this but.#this is incoherent but there are some thoughts here about #idk the way that white characters and their relationships are so often allowed to be the blank slate #to get defined by fandom #(something something white perceived neutrality proximity to whiteness model minority all americanness)#putting a pin in this for myself for later #the unsleeping city #chapter 2 #tuc2 spoilers #ricky matsui

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dollsome-does-tumblr · 2 years

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overall killing eve season 4 thoughts--

so, i really did not like season four for the most part -- the tone felt so off to me right from the get-go, i remember getting on here after the first two eps and being like D: -- and i figured i’ll just document why just to get my Rage out:

it felt to me like this season was written by people who weren’t overly interested in eve and villanelle and didn’t really like the show, which is funny because laura neal was also around for s3, which -- despite its flaws and cracks -- i thought really did deepen the eve/villanelle love story in an authentic way. (and in episodes that she wrote!) season three made the leap to go “in spite of everything, their ability to really see each other is beautiful and a good thing for both of them,” it committed to the romance of that, and then season four put them back in such a weird angry, resentful place with 4x01. it did have some moments that still spoke to that connection beautifully -- a rainbow in beige boots -- but it didn’t seem interested in prioritizing that as the #1 most important thing about the show.

often even with the eve and villanelle stuff (both as separate characters and as a relationship), though it was all beautifully acted, it felt very surface-level in its writing decisions. i feel like i came out of season three with an extremely clear understanding of how villanelle had grown and changed throughout it, but if i was asked to describe her arc in this season, i don’t know if i can. season three was a problem season for eve as she got sidelined by the narrative, but i think i might have felt like i understood what she went through better there than here, too. re: s4, eve felt like she was doing a lot more, but not necessarily in a way that spoke to anything deeper. she was whizzing around onscreen doing a lot, but what did it allow us to know about eve?? this season’s writing seemed to have no interest in really digging into why eve was so into destroying the twelve, why eve got so lured in by helene, etc. etc. etc. i also really think the greatest mistake this show ever made was the villanelle-only ep (though it was a good episode); i always think that i would have immediately followed it with an eve-only ep as episode 3.06 to keep the show THEIRS, but the second-best thing you could’ve done was an eve-only ep this season. which i think would have made a lot of sense because, again, WE NEVER GOT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HER BACKSTORY!!!!!!!! the fact that instead we got a black and white carolyn and konstantin flashback ep is gonna piss me off forever.

that brings me to: this show trying to be an ensemble show was a horrible decision. i hoped they’d correct that for their last season, but instead they swung even further in the ensemble direction. i don’t have to tell you guys this; i just like to profess my hate for it! i also really, really disliked helene as a character and super did not enjoy her getting so much screentime, though i know that isn’t a universal feeling. (on the flip side of that, i did find pam really engaging -- though idk that her character should have been there in this, the final season -- and i will follow anjana vasan anywhere! so excited that there’s more we are lady parts in the future!!! and if you haven’t watched that, you should, it’s so fun and we could all use some fun right now. it’s on peacock!)

i have, many times, been in the place where i’m trying to write and i’m just not inspired so i just desperately start making anything happen even though i know it’s the wrong thing and it won’t serve the story in the long run. in particular, when i was younger and trying to write SOME novel, ANY novel, i fell back on this a lot, and i still vividly remember the awful feeling of strain that came with it, where you didn’t know what you were doing but you were just flinging random ideas at the page just so there would be SOMETHING. that is the exact feeling i get from this season. like they didn’t really want to be writing it, and they were just flinging random ideas out there all throughout just so something could be written, like an assignment they had to turn in. i found this so frustrating to watch because i feel such an inherent kinship with these two characters and i just have a hard time imagining not wanting to explore them and their relationship. the idea of not wanting to really dig in baffles me and honestly breaks my heart a little bit.

like, i could have accepted villanelle dying if it was written well and paced differently. i get that death is horrific and random, and hits when you least expect it, but i don’t necessarily think that fact of life can be used to make this into effective writing, because it’s not. i’ve been racking my brains trying to find a way to make this ending feel more earned, and i was like, “well, technically, every season finale has ended with villanelle leaving eve: in season 1, she fled after eve stabbed her; in season 2, she left her to die; in season 3, she left because eve asked her to and it was an act of love. so maybe villanelle dying in the final season makes sense. and eve starting and ending the series screaming is bookends-y, i guess!” but like ... i already feel like, just in thinking that, i’ve put more thought into it than the writers did, you know?? i think the writers were just like “ha ha, it’s going to feel like they’ve won the day and they can be together but it’s a TRAGEDY so at the last minute villanelle will DIE HORRIBLY!” it’s just something i feel like anyone could have written about any characters, and if any characters demand and deserve specificity, it’s THESE TWO!

like, the whole thing about tragedy is that the outcome needs to feel inevitable based on the choices the characters have made. and i just don’t think that energy was here AT ALL.

anyway: i love eve and villanelle and the beautiful work that sandra and jodie did all season, breathing gorgeous life into what was usually absolute garbage, but this season can bite me.

they ABSOLUTELY should have had the whole season be “eve and villanelle, road-tripping wives on a hunt for the twelve”, and i at least thank this episode for proving that. ya done messed up, writers.

i do feel very happy that eve and villanelle got (in my humble opinion) the greatest first kiss* ever televised, however. who deserved it more than them after all these years?!?!??!

* first kiss not immediately followed by a headbutt

also: are we supposed to read into it that villanelle just killed a room of random people because carolyn sent them to the wrong place?? but also what boat wedding has a secret meeting room of scheming old guys?? I DON’T UNDERSTAND ANYTHINGGGGGGGG! WHAT WAS THIS SEASON’S “PLOT”, YOU GUYS? [cue sobbing]

it’s so weird to think back to season one and then to everything that happened this season and be like “this is the same show.” what. (in some ways this makes me happy, like in the way that eve and villanelle have developed such genuine love for each other over the years. but in most ways, it does not.)

#dollsome's deep thoughts #killing eve #killing eve spoilers

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orange-waterfalls · 3 years

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Unnecessary Feelings

The Host x gn!reader

ty anon for the request

A/N: BRO. Bro. Bro I. I am so proud of this one don’t even look at me. Also happy spooky month! Might do something with that, idk though. This is more of another character study with the Host, I’ll be honest. I still think it’s pretty cute, though. I didn’t read back through this, lmk about any mistakes. Enjoy!

Word Count: 2.4k

Unnecessary Feelings

Host isn’t particularly looking for a relationship, of any sort. Not necessarily. It would be nice, but it isn’t at the forefront of his mind. It’s not that important. Change is weird. He’s been in his same office, writing the same kind of stories, with the same kind of people. That’s fine. He likes that. He likes his novels, his protagonists, and his office.

He explained all of these things to Wilford and Darkiplier, but neither was having it. That’s how he ended up staying at the manor for a while, while his place was being “renovated”. He didn’t know how much he trusted Wilford to “renovate” correctly.

Wilford likes pink. A lot. Host doesn’t. He can't see it, but he knows it. Pink was loud. Pink smelled like raspberries and icing and cherry blossoms and shrimp. It sounded like fair music and joyful screaming and chalk scraping on the ground. It felt smooth and soft and squishy. It tasted like sugar, sugar, sugar, too much to be healthy. Pink made his brain hurt. He doesn’t like pink. Wilford likes pink. Wilford… Wilford fucking loves pink. And Wilford will say it’s pink, and Host will know it’s pink, and even though he can’t see it, he’ll be upset that it’s pink. He doesn’t like pink. He doesn’t know how to say it. So he doesn’t. And he copes.

He takes the opportunity to talk to the others staying at the manor, which was pretty much just Dr. Iplier and… you. Dr. Iplier was a… reasonable man. He was boring. Very boring, really. He directed every conversation to discuss your health or a weird patient he had recently, neither of which really interested the Host. He didn’t enjoy talking to Dr. Iplier too much.

You, however…

Were also kind of boring?

Well, you mostly just wandered around, reading, cleaning, sleeping, not doing much else. He didn’t initiate conversation and neither did you. If you sat next to him on the couch and he sat a little straighter and breathed a little faster, that was simply a coincidence. And the urge to talk to you about his novel for hours was simply boredom. And the desire to listen to you talk for hours was… it was none of your goddamn business is what it was. He didn’t like you, but he didn’t dislike you either. He felt nothing. You made him feel nothing. This didn’t mean anything.

Really.

It didn’t.

But, entirely too fast, Dark and Wil were done. Or rather, whoever they hired was done. Which was good. Host bid you two goodbye. Dr. Iplier told him to drink plenty of water but not too much, and you told him you’d keep an eye out for his newest novel. He felt like he should be blushing right now, he felt it in his face. Nobody commented, so he assumed he didn’t. He felt a thing happen in his chest as he looked at the two of you.

He didn’t like either of you, and if he kept telling himself that, maybe it would come true.

He received a new office. It was much cleaner and brighter, and he actually had room to think. There was an espresso machine in the corner atop a pink table, a “dandelion” yellow couch next to it, a pastel pink desk against the opposite wall, and a few “motivational” posters on the baby blue walls. At least from what he’d heard. Wilford did his best to explain the room. He appreciated that the walls were not, in fact, pink like he expected.

He had to walk around a few times, keep track of his steps, and get used to the new layout. It’s a good room. Clean. No nails sticking out of the floor, no rats scurrying around, no cobwebs, no holes, no nothing. Clean and quiet. Clean. And. Quiet.

…

He fucking hates the goddamn room.

Who likes silence? Who enjoys that? Who wants to be stuck in a suffocatingly clean office with nothing but their thoughts for hours at a time? Homicidal people, that’s who.

Ignore the fact that he has homicidal tendencies and has almost killed/has killed several people, that doesn’t matter right now.

He can just sit and deal. He can take the office, try to coax the rats into coming back, buy some spiders, and write. No big deal.

Except what if he didn’t deal? What if he told them he hated it and couldn’t work in these conditions? What if he was forced to stay at the manor again? What if he could… talk… and interact with people? Without anything barring him from doing so?

He’s… not lonely.

He’s not lonely.

He’s not.

But if he stays in the manor again while Wilford talks about how he has no taste and Darkiplier decides to be in charge of the renovation now, that’s not his fault.

Bim, Eric, and you were staying at the manor when he had to. For the second time. Bim had a thing for rom-coms and dramedy movies, and Eric had started to pick that thing up. You and Host also watched the movies, but whether you actually liked them was beyond him. Usually, you made fun of them together. He couldn’t see them, but he could hear a lot of the ridiculous dialogue. He could drop two random people in a closed-off room together and they’d have more chemistry than half of these Hallmark Christmas Movie couples. You were very quiet during “To All The Boys I Loved Before”, however, so either you loved it or you hated it. He couldn’t really tell.

You two talked a little less than before, you being preoccupied with Eric. Host was fine with that. He could just… talk to you whenever you were done. But you apparently had a low social battery and trapped yourself in a room whenever you were done talking to Eric. That was fine. Host didn’t need to be happy anyways.

He may or may not have showed up at your door first thing in the morning sometimes to get the chance to talk to you. You didn’t know, so it was fine.

But Eric and Bim were smart. They picked up on the Host’s… “feelings” and desire to talk to you. If either were in a room with you and Host, they immediately left so that you could talk. It worked, and Host was happy, but he felt kind of bad.

No. No he didn’t. He felt no emotion towards anyone or anything. The suit he bought for Bim and the journal he bought for Eric meant absolutely nothing. It was a business transaction. You can’t prove anything.

Somehow quicker than before, the room was fixed. Again. And you, Eric, and Bim saw him off. Eric’s voice sounded wet and Bim sounded a little sad as well. You sounded… fine. But he had a suspicion that you knew you were going to see him again soon. And Host was not upset, of course not. And if he was thankful his eyes weren’t exactly working properly because otherwise he might have shed a few tears, it was completely unrelated. You can’t prove anything.

The new room was completely black and white. Black laptop and a white desk with a black chair. White walls and a black floor. A white couch against the wall. No espresso machine this time, which slightly disappointed the Host.

Darkiplier sounded proud when he explained the room. Host could see why, it sounded very pretty. Which he tried to say when he turned to Darkiplier. But his traitorous mouth instead said:

“Host asks if this room is meant for the Host or you?”

The Host was teleported back to the manor this time. Wilford was standing out in front, Host knew because he heard the man’s distinct yell of surprise. He also smelled gunsmoke and wine.

“Wilford.”

“Host. What are you doing here?”

“The Host asks what you are doing here?”

“... I asked you first.”

“The Host asked you second.”

“... business. You?”

“... business.”

“Ah… well, cheers.” Quick footsteps get quieter as Wilford runs away. Host stood for a moment, debating whether or not to apologize to Dark. Before he could decide, the door opened.

“Host?” You asked. Host instantly felt himself straighten up and ball his fists.

“Hello.” He said stiffly.

“Another renovation?” He heard the smile in your voice and forced himself not to smile back.

“Host assumes so.” He nodded.

“So…” You sighed.

“So?” He tilted his head.

“Are you coming in?” You asked. Host let himself smile as he walked into the manor.

He didn’t see you all too much for the rest of the week, and he was severely disappointed. There wasn’t really anybody staying there, just a few people visiting over a few days. Yancy, Illinois, and maybe Bing, if the sound of a skateboard at 3 in the morning was any clue. He was pretty much alone. And that was fine. He was usually alone. He was used to it. This was fine.

Maybe he should stop lying to himself so often.

All too soon, he was on his way back. Again. You were the only one to see him off this time.

“Well… um…” You started. The tension between you two was like a punch to the gut. You were perfectly fine before. What happened?

“Host bids you farewell,” He nodded politely and turned around. Maybe if he left quickly, it wouldn’t hurt as much.

“Wait, Host!” You called. He froze. “I’m, uh… I’m coming with you.” He spun around to face you.

“Host… asks what you mean?”

“I wanna… see your office. I mean, if I’m… allowed to visit?” You said meekly. Host felt his heart quicken.

“The Host would love-like that,” He coughed as he corrected himself.

“Ok, good,” He could hear the smug smile in your voice. Damn him and his… feelings.

The commute to his thrice-new office was almost silent. Neither of you said anything. You most likely wanted to wait for the Host to start the conversation, but he didn’t want to bother you if you didn’t want to talk. It was a little awkward. But after a while, it became comfortable. He liked just being in your presence.

He thought that was what he would miss most about the manor.

You both stood outside of his office door when you arrived.

“Well… here we are.” You whispered. Host nodded solemnly. “Do you want to do the honors.” Host lifted his hand to the doorknob, feeling himself shake. He clutched the doorknob, not moving an inch. He could feel your eyes on him. You were worried. This was fine.

You could visit. But what if you didn’t want to? What if you saw his stories? What if you thought he was cruel? He was, but not to you. He would never be to you. He could stop. He could write different stories. He could write a romance! It would still affect people’s lives, but for the better? At least until the story ended and he had no control over it. What if you wanted him to stop? He couldn’t just stop. Would you give him an ultimatum? You wouldn’t… would you?

“Host--” You started. He whipped around to face you.

“The Host does not want to enter the room.” He said, voice wavering a little. He cleared his throat. Embarrassing.

“What? Ho-”

“The Host wants to talk to people. The Host… wants friends. The Host wants to stay with you and the others.” He grits out. God, this was pathetic. Was he begging?

“Host, open the door.” You sighed. The Host froze. What? Why were you… what?

Oh. So that was it. You were seeing him off… for the last time. You didn’t… you… didn’t like…

Right. Yeah. You were a polite person. He should’ve known.

“But…” He trailed off and faced the floor.

“Host, I really think you should open the door,” You said, the smile clear in your voice. His eyebrows furrowed. Well, you didn’t have to be so eager about it, Jesus.

The Host grabbed the doorknob and threw the door open with a crack against the wall.

“Jesus, man!” Bim’s distinct game show voice sounded from inside the room. Left front corner. “What’s got your boxers in a bunch?”

“I always thought he was a boxer-briefs man.” Dr. Iplier said from the opposite side.

“I can confirm that he is, in fact, a boxer-briefs man.” Google said from the same place as Dr. Iplier.

“I honestly would’ve thought commando.” Eric’s voice was muffled, as if he was facing away from everyone else.

What… What the fuck?

“What. The fuck.” He said loudly. You clapped a hand on his shoulder, making him jump.

“Surprise! We’re invading your office. Please don’t resist.” He could, again, hear the smirk on your face. He almost wanted to be mad. Almost.

“What?” He turned to you. You let go of him and stepped in.

“We fixed your room! You got your bland-ass beige walls, your hardwood floor, cobwebs, dust, and I think there’s a rat somewhere in the walls…”

“His name is Remy!” Eric said happily.

“Sorry, Remy is somewhere in the walls.” Host didn’t move, still processing this whole situation.

“The Host… doesn’t understand…” He rubbed his temples.

“Well, you seemed… lonely. And we like spending time with you. So… we’re gonna spend time with you!” Bim explained.

“You don’t have to do things alone anymore. Just… call someone up and we’ll come hang out.” Dr. Iplier said.

“Only if you ask, though.” Eric added softly. Host didn’t move for a long while.

The others began to fidget, thinking they did something wrong. Eventually, he took a breath, and everyone else held theirs.

“Is… is the Host’s equipment still here?” He asked.

“Your writing stuff? Yeah, it’s on the desk.” You answered. Host went quiet again, thinking.

“Do… You guys want to help the Host write something?” He mumbled.

“Hell yeah we do!” You clapped your hands once. Host made his way over to his desk. All the others, including you, crowded around him as soon as he sat down, pushing each other to get a good look.

This was slightly claustrophobic and pretty uncomfortable…

…

It was perfect.

#the host x reader #the host x gn reader #the host x gender neutral reader #x reader #x you #the host markiplier #the host #x gender neutral reader #x gn reader #markiplier alter egos x reader #the author markiplier

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castielcommunism · 3 years

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I know a lot of people hate Lebanon because it shows John in a pretty positive light (and it's true) but the pearl gave Dean what he wanted most: a loving father, for just one night. He got it. I know it fucked with the timeline, but it's possible that that wasn't the REAL John Winchester, but one who was more or less stripped of those abusive traits to properly fill Dean's desire. (also abuse victims tend to romanticize their abusers, I know I have reminisced about happy times I had with my abusers). John Winchester was an abusive father and kinda a terrible person... but I like his character, so I was kinda happy to see him back

so okay sorry this will be a bit rambling, but my two big issues with Lebanon are his interactions with Sam and his interactions with Dean.

for Sam his exchange with his father is just, like, horrific. I know the brothers have said “he wasn’t father of the year but he did his best” etc a number of times before, and I have very conflicted feelings on that (children abused by their parents often have very complicated feelings about their parents like you mentioned, especially after those parents are dead, ESPECIALLY if, in the case of spn, said parent sacrificed themselves for you, but also I think the intent behind those lines is largely to exonerate John of his many faults. It’s not “he tried his best BUT he was an asshole”, it’s almost always the other way around), but Sam more or less shrugging off years of mistreatment, of the giant blowout fight about Stanford, of his father SENDING HIM AWAY SO SAM WAS NOT THERE WHEN JOHN DIED SO HE COULD TELL DEAN TO KILL HIS BROTHER IF SAM TURNED ‘EVIL’, and being like nah man it’s cool you did your best. Sam is much more openly critical of their father, and while I don’t think he has a less “biased” view of John compared to Dean, he certainly has a more accurate reading of who he is (or, at the very least, he’s more honest about his feelings about their father than Dean is). So the Sam convo is especially egregious to me.

for Dean it’s like… idk yeah he got what he wanted from his dad, which is nice, but it also seems to justify all of Dean’s obsessive behaviour about his father. Like John congratulates him on where he is in his life, which seems to retroactively justify all the trauma and hurt Dean suffered, as well as his defence of his own father and any character faults he shares with his father, because it led him to this moment where his dad says “and that was all worth it because I approve of the man standing in front of me now.”

so like I’m not disagreeing with you necessarily! abusive parent/child relationships are incredibly fraught and emotionally complex in ways that are basically impossible to fully describe (I am also speaking from some experience here), and that includes quote-unquote “weird” or “incorrect” feelings like fantasising about your abusive parent being kind and gentle to you, or you forgiving them, or any number of other emotional states and fantasies that don’t neatly fit into popular narratives about abuse. All of those things are absolutely worth exploring and unpacking in art, I just don’t get the sense that spn is doing that at all, so Lebanon reads not like an earnest engagement with the aforementioned topics but a soft endorsement of violent fatherhood.

I think a really good counter example is actually Mary! Now she’s not abusive to her children at all, but she is allowed to have a complicated relationship with Sam and Dean that is messy and uncomfortable and awkward and vulnerable and tragic and tender and cruel and everything in between. THATS good shit. But in order to make sense of spn’s views on white American masculinity, the audience has to be reassured that John was basically headed in the right direction with his kids even if he fucked up sometimes, and if you reject spn’s conception of masculinity (which I do), then John’s presence in the show becomes much more uncomfortable.

#spn.txt #bro.txt #asks #sam studies #dean studies #john #long post

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olderthannetfic · 3 years

Text

Ah, I do see your points, anon. I'm not going to post all your asks publicly because if you really feel that unsafe, it's probably best not to have a bigass chunk of your text for people to analyze and try to guess your identity from. I think one of the best points you made is about how close to home it hits when the non-fave is not only your fave but is similar to you in some way like demographic. You're not wrong for having those emotions. I do wonder if they make it hard to see how some other people feel similarly embattled on other axes.

TBH, I think one of the big problems here is that the large aggregate patterns you're talking about are racist, but most individual fics and fans are not really the problem. It's hard to know how to talk about this or who to tell to "fix" it when we're looking at free, hobbyist art.

A lot of people's tastes are certainly formed by shitty society, but once they're formed, they don't change fast if at all. Asking someone to rewrite their libido is a big ask, yet tumblr does it all the time as though it's as simple as snapping your fingers.

This leaves me with the sense that a lot of tumblr is... like... the political lesbians of porn fic or something: desire is not real, only choosing based on logic and politics. Or maybe people are so asexual that they just don't understand the lizard brain's "YES!" at some porn things and complete indifference to others?

I don't think it's great if great swaths of people feel like bottom!Nicky is super hot and top!Nicky fundamentally isn't, but I also don't think they can necessarily just turn it off like flipping a switch.

(If someone reading this doesn't like their current tastes and wants to attempt to alter them, I do think it's possible. What you should do is line up a large slate of media that prominently features characters of the ethnicity or whatever that you don't find hot/interesting. These should be leads whose emotional development drives the plot and is supposed to be central to the audience's enjoyment of the media. Watch/read/etc. this media all the time. All. The. Time. Try out many pieces because you won't like every character or every show, and we're looking for genuine enjoyment, not the fandom equivalent of a pity fuck. Spend enough time on this, and your unconscious sense of who's hot and interesting will eventually shift somewhat. This is a project you should expect to take a few years.)

But I digress.

The one tweet thing is a very toxic pattern. If TOG fandom is doing that, guys, please try to be more conscious of holding the actors of color to a higher standard (or the women or whomever). I know this often comes from a place of paying more attention to our own and wanting to set a good standard, but the effect is that minorities can't fuck up ever while white dudes get infinite passes.

Okay, on to the fic thing... Gotta say, my instant reaction to that description is "Ooh!"--as it would be for the same scenario with the characters reversed. (Ships who start out trying to kill each other are my favorite! x1000 if they're resurrecting style immortals and they literally do.) I can see how it would feel like slamming into a brick wall if you aren't kinky in just the right way and you didn't know it was coming though.

Part of why I react so strongly to a lot of discourse that runs along these lines is that I am a naturally extremely kinky person. It's not so much about what I do (which as a deeply lazy person in a long distance relationship is essentially nothing), but it's absolutely how I'm wired.

And I can tell you that my quotidian experience in fandom is sharing something I don't even realize is a big deal only to have someone I like, respect, and trust react in horror and tell me that it's triggering and awful and should not be allowed in fandom spaces because it makes "people" unsafe. It's such an instant, kneejerk reaction they don't even realize I was sharing it because it spoke to the very core of me. Lesson learned, friend. Lesson learned.

That sounds a bit off topic, I know, but bear with me: The point of that anecdote is that it's pretty common for me to get people trying to raise my awareness of things I have already thought deeply about while denying my essential humanity and not even realizing. As a kinky person who likes to make my fave the top (and generally a conflicted sadist), this constant request to explain and justify is exhausting.

I doubt most of the top!Joe fans have this precise problem simply because people who make their fave the top are much less common in fandom than people who make their fave the bottom, but I see a similar pattern with fans who are just fundamentally wired for rape fantasies (one of the most common fantasies that exists) vs. fans who just don't get rape fantasies at all. Or substitute your BDSM/kinky/messed up fantasy trope of choice. Covertly radical feminist attitudes towards kink and power are on the rise in fandom, and as a naturally kinky person, boy do I notice it!

I know that it feels like crucial activism to share these insights about why the ratio of top!Joe is hurtful, and the pain you feel is real. But it's also the case that it's a big ask to want people to listen. (Not me. Obviously, I routinely choose to engage with discourse. I mean overall.) The reason for that is that you're only seeing a fraction of what they do or who they are, and you don't know how many previous people they've listened to how many previous times. It's a very different situation from someone whose job is making some major TV series or movie or something. That person does, in my opinion, owe you some amount of listening.

Now, I'm not saying no top Joe fan was ever a jerk. I'll bet they were. There's a tendency to be rude and to publicly air your schadenfreude when you feel like everyone has been yelling at you. What I am saying is that a lot of the problem here boils down to conflicting needs, and that means there isn't a good solution. It's a situation where people are genuinely hurt, but I don't necessarily agree that other people have harmed them.

I like that you did an actual count of the explicit fics, btw. It's good to look at the real numbers. I see too little of that in these situations. My off the cuff reaction is that 2/3 to 1/3 is not a bad ratio at all compared to many fandoms, but yeah, it definitely shows a strong trend, and that can be painful. (I have a fandom where I think there's maybe like 1 bottom so-and-so fic in the entire zine era fandom. One. It's pretty extreme.)

I guess my thinking here overall is: What is the practical solution? What are we hoping to gain? What is reasonable to ask of people?

And it can't be "Well, if they would just listen..." That's just a sneaky way of saying "If you haven't done it my way, it's because you haven't listened to me yet."

So the question I would ask of people is this:

What does a non-racist fic where Joe tops look like?

What does a non-racist sex pollen, dubcon, or even noncon fic where Joe tops look like?

And if you say the latter is impossible... well... sadists exist everywhere in the world. So do doms. So do people who prefer to top in a purely physical sense. People with rape fantasies where they're the rapist exist (people who are not actually rapists, I mean). None of this is restricted to any one group. We can't categorically say fic like that about Joe is coming from a place of racism without denying the fundamental humanity of kinky MENA people who'd want to make Joe like themselves or like their ideal partner. (Yes, I agree this won't be the majority of fic writers writing top!Joe, but this is a place to start for figuring out what the better version would look like.)

IDK, maybe you're that kinkster yourself, but your asks gave me the vibe that you don't really get the drive towards those darker kinds of fics and what might be motivating it besides stereotypes and shittiness.

If we can answer these kinds of questions, we can better critique the way people write what they write without telling them all of their taste is bad and they should just stop writing. Even if we think the latter is true, it isn't going to get us anywhere. Figuring out how to make Joe more multidimensional in the fic they already want to write or finding very specific wording that should be avoided might actually work.

Beyond that, the actions I think are productive would be running prompt fests, exchanges, or other events for bottom!Joe or for top!Joe where he's the main character and the fics are required to be from his POV. Themed collections and recs lists are great. (I've seen a bit of this going around in TOG fandom in the past, and that's an excellent approach! Keep it up!) Positive actions tend to work better here. Make more of what you want. Promote what you want to see.

I don't mean this in some fluffy magical thinking way: you aren't going to change that ratio radically just by the power of positivity. But I've seen this kind of thing play out in many, many fandoms, and going after the people who write what you don't like, even in a well-intentioned effort to educate and even in a polite, kind way doesn't do much. A few people feel guilty. A few feel defensive. A lot ignore you. The overall fic doesn't change. It's not a good use of your limited time and energy.

I'm off to look up that fic to see what I think of it in practice, but I'm going to post this before tumblr manages to eat it.

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iamanartichoke · 3 years

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(Posting this as its own meta post bc I keep thinking about it and, idk, just some food for thought. [Originally posted as a response to an ask meme here.])

Loki: Hero, Antihero, or Villain?

Honestly, none of them.

Loki is very much not the hero. Which is a complicated statement to make bc Loki does have a lot of the qualities that make a traditional hero (such as bravery, courage, etc), which make it all the more frustrating how many people dismiss him as just being evil. He’s not evil, but he’s not motivated by a noble need to do the right thing, either.

He’s a sympathetic character, in that he’s not malicious or cruel. He doesn’t do bad things for the sake of it, but he still does do bad things. He’s very intrinsically motivated, which gives a deeper context to his misdeeds but also colors his good deeds, too. He usually isn’t doing the good deed for pure, noble reasons. I think that Loki’s nature doesn’t really allow him to have too many of those “I just have an urge to do the right thing” moments; the way his mind works, I feel like he’s constantly weighing every angle and may often be acting from a place of “how can I make this work for me” even when he’s doing something that is, objectively, heroic.

But Loki is not a villain, either, and I don’t think I have to get too far into an explanation of why. He just isn’t.

I feel like, then, there’s a tendency to say, okay, well Loki isn’t the hero but he’s not a villain either so he must be an antihero, but to be honest, I’m not entirely sure that’s accurate. The prefix “anti” literally means being opposed to or against something; in order to be an antihero, one must be opposed to and in objection of the things that make one a hero (such as bravery, selflessness, a strong moral compass). Loki is not opposed to those heroic traits; he possesses a lot of them himself, in fact.

That said, a lot of arguably good characters are the antiheroes because they’re doing their shitty things for the greater good. They’re willing to cross boundaries and may tend to be morally gray. The villain has no qualms about doing awful things, bc they’re often cruelly motivated; they either start out as morally bankrupt or get twisted that way somewhere during the journey.

The antihero, on the other hand, has qualms about doing awful things but will do them anyway bc the ends justify the means; to them, if they need to get their hands dirty on the way to accomplishing some larger goal, then they will. I think in this sense, Loki’s actions in Thor 1 - in letting the Jotuns into Asgard to prevent Thor’s coronation - are the actions of an antihero, but I think he generally shifts away from that “the ends justify the means” mentality after he falls. If that makes sense.

So I think that, like the hero, Loki embodies some antihero traits but isn’t actually an antihero character.

I think that the best way I can frame Loki is simply that of a foil to Thor. This is part of why their relationship is such an important part of their character developments - they’re foils to one another, really. They’re literally night and day:

Thor does things for the noble reason, out of the need to do the right thing; Loki does things for any number of reasons, and rarely are they particularly noble.

Thor outwardly and loudly embodies everything that an Asgardian warrior should be; Loki’s ferocity as a warrior is much more subtle, graceful, and fluid.

Thor is very idealistic, whereas Loki tends to be more cynical.

Similarly, Thor is optimistic and pretty naive, whereas Loki is pessimistic and untrusting. While Thor kinda takes things as face value and accepts the narratives he’s handed (Odin as a hero, Asgard as the protector of realms, etc) Loki’s general inquizitive nature in addition to often being distrusted himself lends itself to a natural tendency to dig deeper and ask questions.

In my opinion, neither of them is better than the other; Thor’s qualities aren’t inherently “good” any more than Loki’s qualities are inherently “bad.” They’re just opposites and it’s why they work so well together.

Unfortunately, in a hero vs. villain story, the nuances of the foil relationship are sacrificed for a much more black-and-white view, and that’s why we are where we are in regards to Loki.

I don’t know if I’m explaining this particularly well ... but yeah; to me, Loki is neither a hero nor a villain nor an antihero, he’s basically Thor’s foil but he’s also just Loki.

#loki meta #loki pokey artichokey #brodinsons #no thor without loki #no loki without thor

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itsclydebitches · 3 years

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Hi! I was just watching good omens and I came up with some questions, but I didn't know whom to ask, so I was digging around for go analysis blogs and found you. *takes a breath* So, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on why Heaven's camera angles are the way they are. I noticed that, in heaven, the camera tends to focus on the characters' heads specifically, so they fill most of the screen. Either it's a meta reason or a reference to something (like Newt with the Office) that I'm not getting. That's the main thing, but I've also wondered why exactly Aziraphale uses the verb "fraternize" in the 19th century. It seemed an odd pivot from caring about Crowley's safety to Heaven's rules. Thanks so much!

Hello! Omg yes, let's talk Good Omens cinematography.

First, the obligatory Analysis Disclaimer: I doubt there's a specific interpretation that you're just not getting, some singular, "correct" reading of the scene(s). Two years past release, I'm positive the fandom as a whole has come up with plenty of ideas (I mostly hang on the periphery. I'm far from up to date with GO meta), but any and all of it will, by nature, be subjective. Thus, all I can offer is my own, personal interpretation.

So for me? It's about intimacy.

Not intimacy in the sense of friendship, but rather the broad idea of closeness. Confidentiality. Emotion. Knowledge. Understanding by means of literally getting into the thick of these conversations. I love the camerawork in Heaven (and elsewhere) because the camera itself acts like a person — an additional party to these interactions. And, since we're the ones watching this show via the camera, it makes it feel as if we're peeking into scenes that are otherwise private. Obviously all cinematography does this to a certain extent, the camera is always watching someone or something without acknowledging that we're doing the watching (outside of documentary-esque filmmaking), but GO uses angles and closeups to mimic another person observing these scenes, someone other than the characters involved.

The easiest example I can give here is when Michael makes their call to Ligur. Here, the camera is positioned up on the next landing of the staircase, as if we're sneaking a look down at this otherwise secret call. There's even a moment when the camera pans to the right to look at them through the gap in the railing, briefly obscuring Michael from our view.

Here, a standard expectation of any scene — keep your character in focus — is done away with to instead mimic the movements of someone actually hiding in the stairwell, listening in on the conversation. It creates that feeling of intimacy, as if we're really there with Michael, not just watching Michael through a screen. The camerawork acts like a person overhearing an illicit conversation prior to falling back on mid/closeup shots. We're spying on them.

To give a non-Heaven example, the camera helps us connect with Aziraphale during Gabriel's jogging scene. It's hard to show through screenshots, but if you re-watch you'll see that the camera initially keeps them both in the frame with full body shots, allowing us to compare things like Gabriel's unadorned gray workout clothes with Aziraphale's more stylish outfit; one's good jogging form and the other's awkward shuffle. However, this distance also creates the sense that we're jogging with them, we're keeping pace.

That is, until Aziraphale begins to lag. Then the camera lags too, giving them both the chance to catch up, so to speak.

Until, finally, Aziraphale has to stop completely and the camera, of course, stops with him. We're emotionally attuned to Aziraphale, not Gabriel, and the camerawork reflects that. Even more-so when we cut to a low shot of Gabriel's annoyed huff at having to stop at all, making him appear larger and more imposing. Because to Aziraphale, he is.

This work carries over into Heaven's other scenes. The closeups are pretty much a given since, whether it's Gabriel realizing Aziraphale has been "fraternizing" with Crowley (more on that below!), or Aziraphale choosing to go back to Earth, the scenes in Heaven are incredibly important to the narrative. Closeups allow the viewer to get a good read on each character's emotional state — focusing on minute facial changes as opposed to overall body language — and that fly-on-the-wall feeling is increased as we literally get an up close and personal look at these pivotal moments.

Compare a shot like this one of Gabriel to the line of angels ready for battle. We don't get closeups on any of their faces because their emotions aren't important. Yes, that's in part because they're background characters, not main characters, but a lack of emotion — their willingness to enter this war without question — is also the point of their presence in this scene. So they remain a semi-identical, nearly faceless mass that runs off into infinity down that hallway, not any individual whose inner life we get a peek at via a closeup.

I particularly like Aziraphale's conversation with the angel... general? Idk what to call this guy. He's just gonna be Mustache Angel. But, getting back on track, his scene has a lot of over the shoulder shots which, admittedly, are pretty common. From a practical perspective they're used to help the audience situate both characters in the scene — you're here, you're there, this is how you're spaced during this conversation — but it can also help emphasize that closeness between them. Keeping both characters in the shot connects them and though Aziraphale and Mustache Angel definitely aren't on the same page here, those shots help cue us in to the unwanted intimacy of this moment. They're both angels... even though Aziraphale no longer aligns himself with them. They're both soldiers in a war... but Aziraphale will not fight. This angel has a list of Aziraphale's secrets, including that he once had a flaming sword and lost it... but Aziraphale doesn't want to admit those circumstances to him. This angel wouldn't understand, even if he did. Intimacy here, connection and closeness, is something discomforting because Aziraphale can no longer embrace those similarities. They put him (and us) out of sorts, so when we get them both in frame, that connection creates tension, not relief.

And many of those over the shoulder shots are given sharp angels, or the camera is placed too close to the "off screen" party. Compare a shot like Luke and Rey to Aziraphale and Mustache Angel. Here, Luke is a clean, solid line on the left side of the screen, just enough there to cue us in to where he is in relationship to Ray, In contrast, Mustache Angel's mustache is Too Close and proves rather distracting. Rey and Luke are connecting here over being Jedi with responsibilities to uphold (or at least, Luke will acknowledge that connection later lol); Mustache Angel is forcing a connection with Aziraphale that makes everyone uncomfortable.

We are too close to him here. He feels too close to Aziraphale too. This whole conversation is upsetting and discomforting, pushing Aziraphale to finally choose which side he's on (his own with Crowley). The shots aren't meant to subtly keep the audience from getting lost and then otherwise be unobtrusive, we're supposed to be Very Aware of this angel's body and how close he's getting to the character we've come to identify with — both literally (he's leaning in) and in terms of forcing Aziraphale to finally make his choice.

When Mustache Angel marches forward and gets all up in Aziraphale's face, the camera positions itself behind Aziraphale in a way that makes it feel like we're hiding behind him, with Aziraphale taking up far more of the screen than Luke does. Like the scene with Michael or running with Gabriel, the camera often likes to mimic a "realistic" response to these events. This angry, shouty angel is getting closer, best take a step back and stay out of sight behind Aziraphale, holding his ground.

These closeups also serve as a nice contrast to the wide and longshots we get of Heaven. It's an imposing place with skyscrapers in the distance, lots of steel, immaculate floors, and endless white. It's overwhelming and it's cold. But then we cut to those mid-shots of Gabriel and Michael, telling us that they're in control of it all.

Aziraphale? Aziraphale is not in control. Not now, anyway. When he appears in Heaven we get a longshot to show off this endless void and he's just another, tiny speck in it. If he weren't flailing around — an acting move that likewise helps sell how out of his depth he is — it's unlikely you'd even notice him. Aziraphale's clothing and hair blends in perfectly with the background. He's forgettable. Easily overlooked. Someone to underestimate. And when he moves, he has to come to the camera. We don't cut to Aziraphale to establish control like we do with Gabriel. He's left to awkwardly shuffle up to Mustache Angel until he's finally come into view.

Yet when Aziraphale makes his decision, he aligns himself with the brightest, most colorful, most interesting thing in the room: Earth. Earth, with all its messy individuality, is the antithesis to Heaven's controlled uniformity and a bright blue orb hanging in the midst of all this white helps remind us of that. Aziraphale rejects becoming one of the identical soldiers and instead literally reaches out for the one thing in Heaven that doesn't fit in.

When he leaves, we get an extreme closeup for the first time. Mustache Angel is pissed and as such we not only get a good look at his face in the aftermath of Aziraphale's choice, but that extreme closeup on his mouth as he's shouting too. It's like he's shouting directly at us, the viewer who is currently cheering on Aziraphale's decision. There's a war, dammit... but we don't care. Not in the way he cares, anyway.

So there's a lot! And I could probably go on, but apparently I'm only allowed to add 10 images per post now (tumblr what the actual fuck if anyone knows a way around this please share!) and I've already had to merge a bunch of images like an animal. So let's awkwardly finish up with the duck pond scene.

...without a GIF because they apparently count as images too 🙃

Simply put, I don't think Aziraphale bringing up fraternizing is a pivot from one to the other — from caring about Crowley to caring about Heaven's rules. I mean yes, Aziraphale is lagging behind Crowley in terms of rebellion and a part of him is, at this point, absolutely concerned with how he'll come across to the higherups, but that worry doesn't stem solely from a (now very shaky) desire to obey for the sake of obeying. The thing is, Aziraphale's disobedience is, by default, also Crowley's disobedience. If they're friends and they're ever found out, they'll both get in trouble. Which, we know from the end of Season One, basically means being wiped from existence. That's horrifying! And it's a horror that threatens them both. I don't think Aziraphale cares about rules for the sake of rules; after all, he started off by giving away his sword, lying to God, is currently meeting with Crowley anyway... this angel has always ignored/bent the rules — established and implied — that don't suit him. Rather, he cares about the rules if he thinks they have a chance of being enforced. If there will be consequences for breaking and bending them. This is still about caring for Crowley (as well as saving his own, angelic skin). If they're found out, Crowley dies. And, as we the viewer learn, Heaven was indeed observing them that whole time. There was always legitimate risk attached to this relationship. Aziraphale's fear, hesitance, and at times forceful pleas to stop this stem as much from Aziraphale worrying about Crowley's safety as they do a learned instinct to obey the rules without question. He pushes to end the relationship because the relationship threatens the only thing Aziraphale cares about more than that: Crowley himself.

As for the term "fraternizing," that's a loaded one! I won't go into a whole history lesson here, but suffice to say it has military roots: to sympathize as brothers with an opponent. That is literally what Crowley and Aziraphale are doing. They are an angel and a demon, supposedly innate enemies, supposedly poised for an inevitable war... yet they've formed an incredibly strong kinship. They've both learned to love their enemy, the thing every army fears because, well, then your army won't fight (just as Aziraphale won't). However, beyond the enemy implications, "to fraternize" eventually took on a sexual meaning: to not merely love as a brother, but to lay with the enemy too, usually women from enemy countries (because, you know, heteronormativity). Nowadays, "to fraternize" often implies a sexual component. I've been rewatching The Good Wife lately and in one subplot, the State's Attorney cracks down on fraternization in his office. He doesn't mean his employees are forming bonds with assumed enemies, he means his employees are having sex on his office couch. So Aziraphale's phrasing here carries a LOT of weight. He's both reminding Crowley of their stations in the world — you are a demon, I am an angel, us meeting like this can have formal, irrevocable consequences for us both — as well as, given the fact that this is a love story, drawing attention to the depth of this relationship. They love one another, as more than just friends. Though whether Crowley's scathing "Fraternizing?" is a response to Aziraphale falling back on the technicalities of their positions, or acknowledging a love he's yet to overtly admit and commit to — or both! — is definitely up for debate.

#Good Omens #Ineffable Husbands #Air Conditioning #mymetas #whew #long post!#with too few images imo #with this done I'm gonna steam #about tumblr's absurd limitations #how's a girl supposed to do meta on this website anyway

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