#i say ''maybe'' in the same way loki is ''maybe'' being affected by torture and the mind stone and not putting effort in the new york attack | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

i-dreamed-i-had-a-son · 3 years

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Just put this together and I know I've made like 800 posts just about episode one but I've been thinking about this for the past two days and it FINALLY makes sense

I have been puzzling over the oddly intense reaction Loki had to finding the collection of Infinity Stones in the drawer. I couldn't figure out why he was so affected by it--I mean, he seems gutted. Crushed. Because of how striking it was, that response screamed "this is an important moment," and I finally have an answer as to what makes it so.

When Mobius leaves the interrogation room, Loki takes the opportunity to escape. This is after Mobius has been psychologically attacking him and both Loki's verbal and physical outbursts have done nothing. He's tried reasoning and questioning, he's tried intimidating, he's tried attacking his environment and his captor, and has even tried other methods of escape--none of these have worked. To his massive credit, Loki keeps his wits about him enough to steal the only tool he knows can get him out of there, and uses it. But though he's escaped the room, he's still in the TVA. He needs something more powerful to get him out entirely.

That's the first, and more obvious, reason that Loki responds as he does when the Tesseract is just sitting in a drawer, lumped in with a bunch of other Infinity Stones. If something that powerful is useless in the TVA, then Loki really can't get out on his own. His last method of defense--escape--is gone, and nothing else he's done has worked. He is, effectively, helpless. I understand why that would cause a pretty dramatic response.

But then he stands, shaken to his core, and says, "Is this the greatest power in the universe?" He looks almost on the verge of tears. And I just...did not get it. Why that question, and why such a strong reaction? But then I remembered: this is 2012's Loki.

Thanos brutally tortured, manipulated, and abused Loki, for who knows how long, all so that Loki could be sent to Earth to get the Tesseract. One Infinity Stone. And the TVA uses that exact stone as a paperweight. If Thanos went to such lengths, and if Loki went through so much, to try to get something that is so inconsequential to the TVA, how powerful must they be? And, the more pressing question--what must they be capable of? They have hardly been hospitable to Loki; he's been being attacked, controlled, or manipulated since the moment he arrived. And Thanos, the last person who'd controlled him, was much less powerful than they were. If Loki went through so much at his hands, what horrors would his new captors be willing to inflict?

Additionally, Loki had just been on Earth, under Thanos' influence and threat, desperately trying to get the Tesseract, that very day. This isn't something he's had time to distance himself from; this is what he's been told mere hours before that if he did not deliver it to Thanos, he would "long for something as sweet as pain". And now it's sitting in a drawer. It can't even help Loki get out of the prison he's trapped in, having gone from one form of captivity to another; it is utterly useless. It's easy to imagine what Loki must have been thinking: it wasn't worth it. How could it have been? All that suffering, all that fear, all the death and destruction and pain he had had to cause, and for this?

The moment he realized that was another huge blow to Loki's mental state. At a loss, and unable to really go anywhere else, Loki returns to the room he'd escaped from, and goes to watch the life he'd escaped from the same. In that raw state, he cries over the family he won't get to see again. Maybe that releases some of the stress he's been feeling, maybe he feels a little safer. Maybe that means something.

And then he watches himself die at Thanos' hand.

For a paperweight.

"Glorious purpose" indeed.

This is the point at which Loki recognizes that he can't go back to his original timeline (despite having said previously that he'd "like to go home"); it's the first thing he says to Mobius when he returns. It breaks him, in a way--even if he were to escape, he wouldn't have anywhere to go. Fittingly, the TVA have left him only one way forward. So, out of options, and exhausted in every way from the sheer amount he's endured over the past 24 hours, Loki presents himself as open to work with the TVA. And while I think he will still be looking for an out, he's stopped actively fighting for his freedom, because--at least for the moment--he no longer believes he could win.

#loki #loki series #loki series spoilers #meta #my meta posts #quality meta seal of approval #not to hype my own post up i just put that on all meta posts so that i can find them #kay can i just catch my breath for a second #marvel #that's what the whole thing is about is it just hammers it into him that he's got no shot #starting from them knowing about his whole life to finding that the tesseract (and all infinity stones) are utterly useless #they are just clearly so much more massively powerful than him and he cannot handle any more than what he's already gone through #so basically i think loki's breakdown was genuine but i can't be 100% on what he says to mobius at the end #i think it's the truth--it is accurately how he perceives himself--but i tend to think he is still being strategic with it #but even the fact that they got him to cooperate is impressive and that is the thing i've been struggling to express #is i DON'T think he's only cooperating because he's 'trying to woo them' he is responding partially because he's being manipulated #and all the emotional elements present in the interrogation contributed to loki's more fragile state #i mean he didn't even need to be threatened too directly (although the tva did like. chase him down and try to kill him)#i don't know idk what i'm saying just it's important we recognize that loki is very fragile atm bc his actions are not normal for him #and i love him but he is vulnerable to manipulation we have seen it happen and that is partially what this is #mobius gets exactly the emotional responses out of loki that he wants. he gets loki to stop fighting back. even a genuine admission #and that last *may* have been strategic but the others were not #we do have that quote from the trailers: 'it's adorable that you think you can manipulate me' so to some degree loki knows what's going on #but i don't know that he fully recognizes the extent to which they're succeeding #anyways!#kay has a party in the tags #1k

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iamnmbr3 · 3 years

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Some of the other Loki Series interviews have concerned me but this latest interview was the first one to legitimately upset me because not only did it disappoint me in terms of how they plan to handle the character, but some of what was said had really harmful real world implications.

1) “Due to the trauma in Loki’s life, I would even [accept a story] in which he is committed to being all bad.”

Regardless of what you think of the show, saying that is not ok. Basically what he’s saying here is trauma makes you evil. Now, trauma absolutely can affect people deeply and can make them act in ways that are destructive to themselves or even to others and can make people lash out or behave in ways that may seem irrational or strange to those who haven’t been through trauma. But that doesn’t mean that trauma makes anyone evil. It just doesn’t. The idea that being a victim somehow “breaks” you or makes you “go bad” is an extremely harmful one that has been perpetuated in media and that Waldron continues to perpetuate here. He’s moved from blaming fictional victims to full-on victim blaming. Ironically, in the real world acts of evil are far more often carried out by people like Mobius, who Waldron is quick to praise. Mobius is not driven to desperation by trauma but is simply a smug bureaucrat who is complicit in furthering the aims of a deeply harmful organization and who seems to enjoy having power over others, feels perfectly entitled to behave in the way he does, and who apparently never questions his own world view. That’s a realistic villain.

If you look around today or at history, that’s the kind of person and personality that is responsible for most actual villainy. It’s not the Lokis of the world. It’s the Mobiuses. And that’s something Mike Waldron utterly fails to understand.

2) “He is on his own, so, he is forced to reflect in a way he hasn’t. He can no longer blame everything on Thor or Odin [Loki’s father]."

This quote is completely bizarre. Because Loki has had to fend for himself during most of his screen time. It’s an especially odd thing to say since this show picks up before TDW and whether or not you think Loki is a villain he is most definitely the main antagonist of Thor 2011 and Avengers, the movies this show is supposed to follow, and as the antagonist he is very much on his own since he’s in opposition to the other characters. Was he not on his own in Thor 2011 when he plotted in secret to delay Thor’s coronation and then discovered the truth of his heritage and told no one and then fought Thor in the end on the Bifrost? Was he not on his own when he fell and was captured and tortured by Thanos? Was he not on his own in Avengers 2012 when he had the Other’s claws in his mind and also battled the Avengers and Thor???

As for the second part of this quote. I don’t even know where to begin. Talk about victim blaming. Basically Waldron’s take on Loki’s character seems to be that he’s a whiny, spoiled crybaby who just unfairly blames all his problems on his father and brother and now for the first time he has to man up and take responsibility. This is utterly unreflective of canon, promotes harmful attitudes irl, and also is just plain boring. It’s not new. We’ve already had that story. Thor 2011 was supposed to be about Thor being irresponsible and rash and then learning to take responsibility for his actions. We’ve the same sort of trope many times before. We don’t need it here.

3) “Tom’s soulfulness, charm and honesty is evident in the character. So, even when Loki is being mean or deceitful, people see the goodness of Tom in the character.”

Huh??? Yes. Tom seems like a lovely person although of course I don’t know him, but that’s not why I like Loki. Waldron seems to be saying here that people who like Loki can’t distinguish between the actor and the character, and yet ironically he seems to be the one who has that problem. He’s saying that Loki’s only charm or goodness comes from the actor playing him, rather than anything about the character. It’s not because Tom and the writing portrayed Loki with vulnerability and sympathy. It’s not because Loki’s motivations were understandable or complex. It’s not because wanting to prevent a war or being devastated that your family lied to you are sympathetic. It’s not because Loki has ever done anything good. No. It’s just because Tom is nice. That’s a huge disservice to Tom’s acting by implying that his portrayal of Loki as sympathetic was not a conscious acting choice but rather his real personality showing through. It’s also a huge disservice to Loki’s character and to his fans.

4) “Loki is an ass, and that makes my life as a writer, easy.”

*Sigh* Really? That’s all you have to say about this character? He’s an ass? No fanfic writer would dismiss him that way or describe him as easy to write. Maybe he seemed easy to write because you weren’t giving him any nuance or complexity. Loki has reasons for doing what he does. Often his actions are the product of many conflicting and contradictory impulses. If you reduce it to just “he’s being an ass” then not only is it out of character. It’s also boring. What a flat and uninteresting motivation.

5) “Just like the shape-shifting character that Loki is, we wanted the show to be [unpredictable] as well”

I mean. Surprising plot twists are fine. But this sounds like Loki’s characterization will be all over the place and they’re trying to pass it off as a good thing. Also surprising the audience isn’t everything. I’d rather have a good plot and compelling character arcs than just something unpredictable. Otherwise you just get Rian Johnson’s Star Wars....

6) “Owen is amazing. His character is opposite to that of Loki. He calls him out, and knows when he’s lying. That enforces Loki to be more honest.”

Really?! Seriously??? Mobius literally works for an organization that murders and enslaves people and that specifically chose to create a timeline in which Nazism and the Snap happened. Also he has not said a single correct thing about Loki in the trailers thus far. This better be the show being “unpredictable” by presenting Mobius as a friend only for him to turn out to be a villain. Bc otherwise. WTF?!?! Also why does he say that Loki needs to be more honest. He’s not a habitual liar. When he tricks people it’s for a specific reason. That’s why his lies work. Because they’re unexpected. It’s like this show completely disregards the movie canon it’s supposed to follow on from.

#Loki #Loki tv series #Marvel #MCU #loki series #loki show #loki 2021 #my post #loki tv series interviews

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iamanartichoke · 3 years

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Another totally unprompted ask, on the assumption that you are definitely no longer in need of them… another thing I’m trying to work out about Loki characterisation in preparation for perpetrating fic torture on him is how suicidal the poor sod is most of the time. This is another thing I’ve seen referred to a lot but only in passing. Though obviously this is a pretty triggery topic, so ignore if you want.

I am always in need of totally unprompted asks, otherwise I just assume no one wants to talk to me lmao

So, hoo boy. I have been mulling over this for, apparently, three days now bc there's just ... there's a lot to unpack here. Putting under a cut for obviously triggery content and also for length bc fml.

In my opinion, the response to "how suicidal is Loki most of the time" is "very, but whether or not he wants to do anything about it varies from moment to moment" (see what I did there? I'll see myself out). In other words, I have always had a headcanon that Loki is consistently, passively suicidal. This is a headcanon that comes straight from TDW, bc I'm certain that Loki never had any intention of surviving their mission. And that could be a whole other post, really, but the point is that even though this is a TDW-centric headcanon, I have come to adopt it as applying to Loki in general as well, not just in those specific circumstances.

When I say passively suicidal, I mean that Loki is just sort of ambivalent about the value of his own life. He feels like he doesn't deserve to be alive, and feels like there's little point in being alive. Which - I don't mean to sound all gloom and doom, like, poor uwu emo Loki (and I kinda hate that I have to pause to disclaim that, no, I don't just have a fixation on Loki being depressed for funsies/the aesthetic/whatever); I think that this mindset stems from really complicated places that I'm not sure I can articulate, but I will try.

I view Loki as someone who suffers from a severe inferiority complex, and I feel like it stems from being abandoned as an infant. Loki's life started with a traumatic event and, even if he doesn't remember the event itself, the feelings he experienced stayed in his subconscious. Feelings of loss, of fear, of despair and abandonment, of suffering - these are all feelings that burrowed into his bones and lived there for his entire life, feelings that colored how Loki viewed himself as a person as well as how he compared to the people around him.

Keep in mind that Loki didn't know he was abandoned until the events of Thor 1, obviously. We don't really know how old Loki is, in human years, but I have always assumed that he and Thor were at least adults (not teenagers), maybe the equivalent of early twenties - and the reason I bring that up is because it means Loki made it all the way to adulthood carrying the weight of a trauma that he did not remember or even knew had happened, so to him, there was no real reason for how wrong he felt. There was no explanation for the feelings of loss, of neglect, of fear. So on top of struggling with those feelings, Loki was also burdened with the alienation that comes with wondering why one can't just be like everyone else, why one can't just "snap out" of depression, why one's sense of self-worth has always been lacking.

So imagine what it's like to grow up as Loki. He was traumatized as an infant. The trauma has been with him his entire life, along with the confusion/alienation of not understanding why he feels the way that he does, and then on top of that, his basic personality lends itself toward introspection and isolation, so he likely felt even further removed from Thor and from his peers. Loki's too smart for his own good, and he's got an enormous capacity to feel and I feel like this is a combination that works against him as much as it does for him, bc it probably means he spent a lot of time examining himself and identifying all of his perceived flaws - and then berating himself for said flaws.

People with depression are probably pretty familiar with the bully that lives in your head, the one who is always there to remind you that you're stupid, or ugly, or that nobody likes you, or that you have nothing of value to contribute to anyone, etc. Loki's no different; he's got that bully in his head, too. Add onto this the fact that his brother is literally perfect, that he feels his father doesn't love him (or love him as much), that his interests in things like magic are looked down on in his culture, and that he's a prince (meaning that along with the privilege comes pressure, and being in the public eye, knowing that everyone around him is comparing him to Thor as much as he compares himself to Thor, well.) and you have a total clusterfuck of a mindset, and Loki's been existing inside of that clusterfuck for nearly all of his life.

I always go back to the quote where, when filming I think the vault scene, Kenneth Branagh directs Tom by saying, "This is the moment where the thin steel rod holding your brain together snaps." And it's such a significant moment for Loki bc this is where it all crumbles for him, learning the truth, but I also fixate on the "thin steel rod" part of the quote bc that's not how one would describe a healthy, stable person's mind. The implication, to me, has always been that Loki wasn't that stable to start with due to his general upbringing, his internal struggles, and his personality, so of course the devastation of learning he's adopted, and Jotun, would send him over the edge. One doesn't go from zero to 60; one doesn't fall over the edge unless they were balancing fairly close to it in the first place. And to me, the "thin steel rod" basically equals the aforementioned clusterfuck of a mindset.

THE POINT IS. (Holy shit, I ramble.) This is the foundation on which I'm basing my headcanon that Loki neither values his life nor feels as if he even deserves to live it - bc his default mindset is one of inferiority, of loss, of pain. And I think that going from being a general unstable person pre-canon to being passively suicidal post-canon is a thing that happened because, somewhere between the vault in Thor 1 and the dungeons in TDW, Loki just stopped caring.

Life is exhausting for everyone, but even moreso when your mental load becomes more than you can carry. Loki is exhausted. His experience is that things just keep getting worse and worse for him - he's never been valued, he's always been found wanting. He discovers that he was literally thrown away as an infant, unwanted and left to die, and things haven't gotten much better for him since then. Everything that can go wrong, does go wrong. His plans spin out of control. He's unable to prove his worth and his value and when he is, in fact, rejected, he literally tries to kill himself (only to survive and end up in an even worse situation).

It all just continually goes downhill, and Loki is fucking exhausted. He's done. He has no hope that anything is ever going to change - he will never be valued or even seen, he's unable to connect to anyone, he has no family (aside from Thor, but their relationship is so fraught with pain). As far as he's concerned, his life has been nothing but a waste since he was born and if no one else values it, why should he?

So - passively suicidal. He places no value on his life, and doesn't shy away from situations that could cost him his life. It's possible that the only reason he's not actively suicidal is bc his previous attempt not only failed but led to such a horrible situation that he's probably too afraid to intentionally seek out death again. He doesn't want to fail and end up worse off for it.

And - not that you asked this in particular, but - my biggest disappointment in the series is that none of what I've just written is addressed in a satisfying way (to me). That is, we don't get any real explicit acknowledgement of the trauma of Loki's abandonment as a baby or how that affected his mental health growing up; we don't get to explore how devastated he was to learn of his adoption; we don't ever see him reconcile his ingrained belief that jotuns are monstrous savages with the fact that he is jotun. He says "I betrayed everyone I loved, but I'm different now" and we're supposed to infer what he means without Loki actually articulating why he feels that he's the only one who should be held responsible for all these things that had happened or what "I've changed" even means to him (aside from not betraying Sylvie).

I would have liked to see these things addressed for a lot of reasons, but one of those reasons is that I would want to see how Loki comes to terms with all of his issues and his pain enough that he stops being passively suicidal. We never get to see that; after TDW, the time that passes allows for Loki to kinda chill, resulting in the Ragnarok version, but if there was any real healing or recovering going on, it was happening off-screen, with the audience expected to just go with "yeah Loki was going through it for awhile but he's kinda better now."

Furthermore, much of what I've written here is based on prime Loki's development through TDW, but doesn't account for series Loki's split from that timeline nor the theme of "Lokis survive" that's so prevalent in the series. So I don't think the "passively suicidal" headcanon is really appropriate for series Loki but, at the same time, I'd like to have seen why. I'd like to have seen Loki learning to value his life, or where the "we survive" mindset comes from, since that's not really been a thing before now. (Out of universe, I suspect it comes from the context of Loki just not dying whenever he tries to, but since TDW and IW haven't happened, and Loki didn't intend to survive his fall from the bifrost, framing Loki as an innate survivor doesn't really make sense, but to be fair, I'm just being picky.)

So, yeah. I'm not saying Loki doesn't experience growth or development in the series, I'm just saying that his arc left much unsaid and, furthermore, framing his growth as "wanting a throne to not wanting a throne" without addressing that Loki doesn't actually want the power of the throne, he wants the value and self-worth he associates with the throne, is - well, again, unsatisfying. Not bad, but it leaves viewers like me wanting bc we're cognizant of how much more could have been done.

I ... am going to end this now. This is probably nonsensical and all over the place, so I'm very sorry, and I'm sure this is why I don't get meta-starter asks lmfao bc no one's out here trying to read my dissertation submission for a Ph.D in Loki, but well, sometimes it just be like that.

Thank you for the ask and the opportunity to ramble.

#asks #charlotte replies #loki pokey artichokey #loki series #loki series criticism #loki meta #tw suicidal ideation #tw suicide attempt #tw suicide #tw mental health #tw depression #i spent two fucking hours on this yet i still feel like it's rambly nonsense #i hit stream-of-consciousness at some point and just went with it #and now i'm too lazy to revise #so i'm sorry #this'll probably only get like 10 notes anyway bc that's how it be on tumblr #put effort in and get little validation; put no effort in and everyone loses their minds

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bebx · 2 years

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I really like reading Loki whump (with Mobius providing comfort) & I also love your stories (they are so amazing & you are so amazing too). But it always bothers me when Loki whump stories are like: "no one has ever been kind to this poor being or given him any love or a hug". Like, I love reading angst & touch-starved Loki & all that good stuff, but I think saying Loki never experienced any kind of love and affection in his life is taking it too far. It totally invalidates his relationship with Frigga (I mean, she was by no means perfect (as can be seen in the way she acts in Thor 1), but she still gave Loki lots of love). I think Loki can enjoy the love and kindness Mobius gives him even without going to the extremes of "this is the first time Loki has ever been shown kindness". What's your opinion on this?

Thank you! I’m going to get into Lokius whump specifically first, before talking about any other pairing/general Loki whump.

Frigga undoubtedly loves Loki, and to the best of my belief, Loki knows that, and he’s been shown kindness before. Though in my point of view, with Loki’s issues and how complicated (or maybe troubled, even) his mind works, I wouldn’t be surprised, if Loki failed to sense his mother’s kindness altogether after he’s learned his true heritage. Since that changes his life in a way he doesn’t think things will ever be the same; between him and Frigga and their family. Sure, Frigga said nothing changed, he was still her son. But that wasn’t how Loki saw it. He was a ‘monster parents told their children about at night’ so there was no way Frigga was his family. Or, there was no way Frigga ever saw him as her son. (I know that’s not true, but I think that’s how Loki thinks during that time in his life, since he’s hurt and confused) so all the love and kindness he’d ever received from anyone in his family suddenly became a lie, to keep him fooled. So they could eventually hurt him.

Though with Mobius, it’s different. Loki expected Mobius to hurt him since the beginning. He wouldn’t be shocked or confused, if Mobius were to physically hit him, or insult him, because, in Loki’s belief — during the time when they first met — Mobius was supposed to do just that; hurt him and tear him apart like Thanos did. Like everybody else did. But Mobius’s love and kindness seem genuine. And I think that’s what confused Loki the most, because in his mind, that’s simply impossible. Mobius’s affection must be a lie, to keep him fooled, precisely like the lie his family told him, if — and I say this in Loki’s point of view — he could still call them ‘family’

So he waits for Mobius to lose his patience and just get on with it; why he hasn’t been thrown in a cell, or why no one comes and tortures him yet. Because it’s only a matter of time, right? But that never happens. Mobius keeps proving himself again and again that he simply cares about Loki. His love, his kindness, is real. So it’s shocking for Loki, to think someone like him could be loved.

Yes, Frigga does love him. His family loves him, but for Loki, I think he kind of cut all of that out of his life and assumed it was all a lie after learning he was a Frost Giant. And I know Ragnarok Loki has what’s been broken between him and Thor (which I believe include Frigga and Odin as well) fixed. So he’s come to accept the love and kindness from his family again. Even if Frigga and Odin are both gone, I think he knows now, their love was real, the kindness they gave was real.

But the thing is, in most Lokius fics, it’s not Ragnarok Loki but the Loki who hasn’t been through any of the things he’s been through after the event of the Dark World, that helps him find peace with his family again. So if or when you see in a fic where it goes along the line “this is the first time Loki has been shown kindness” it was probably written in Loki’s POV, or that it’s been so long since someone was kind to him (since it’s been years during the time he was held captive in Thanos’s Sanctuary and was tortured) he can no longer remember kindness, especially with Thanos having messed with his mind and most-likely his memories, too. At least, these are just my opinions.

I mean, I can only speak for myself as someone who writes Lokius fics. Because, believe it or not, I don’t remember if I ever used those lines in any of my fic, whether it’s about Lokius or not, since there’s just so much I’ve written about Loki — and, most of the times, I tried to write in words that captured my at-that-time feelings best, and it depended on whose POV I was writing in, if it’s Loki’s — but if I ever did, these are the reasons why. Or if in the future you find a sentence in my fic that’s similar to those lines, I promise you my intention is never to invalidate Frigga’s love and kindness which she gave to her son.

Wow. I got carried away and that was a whole essay about it. Don’t worry, though, I didn’t forget about the general Loki whump/other pairing — which I said I’d get into in the beginning — which won’t be as long. Here it goes; as for some other general Loki whump, I believe we should take into consideration a.) if it was written in Loki’s POV and if the context was to make it seem that it’s been so long since Loki was shown a glimpse of kindness. (Or if it was Avengers Loki whose mind and memories weren’t exactly intact.)

Or b.) if it’s Thor 1 Loki, Avengers Loki, TVA Loki, The Dark World Loki, Ragnarok Loki or Infinity War Loki, because while it’s still Loki, his canon character development in each era can be different when compared to the others. The cases, whether it’s Lokius or other pairing, can be quite similar when it come down to how Loki feels about the kindness given from Frigga, and the kindness given from other person. Again, these are just my opinions, and I hope I make sense and that you get what I mean.

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juliabohemian · 3 years

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oh dear

I have noticed a number of posts circulating which imply that ANY character being mean to Loki EVER and for ANY reason = abuse.

I will admit that I initially felt mostly irritation at what appeared, on the surface, to constitute such a complete and utter lack of critical thinking. What I’ve realized, though, is that people who make such posts definitely believe what they are saying. And like everything people do and say, there’s a deeper reason for it. The fact is, traumatized characters attract traumatized fans. And not all of those fans are in a good place, emotionally. And those people are perfectly valid, even if the conclusions they draw are not.

When it comes to fiction, good characters are complex. That means they are conflicted and flawed. They make mistakes. They lash out when they are afraid or hurting. They sometimes hurt other characters. Loki fits that bill very well. It’s one of the reasons he is so popular. Not just with traumatized people, but with people in general. He’s relatable.

The problem comes when fans relate to fictional characters, but really aren’t conscious of why, because they aren’t all that conscious of themselves. They haven’t done a whole lot of self-reflection. Maybe because they aren’t ready, because their trauma is too fresh. Or maybe they are still living in crisis and don’t have the freedom to self-reflect. Those possibilities are all valid.

But very often, when a person goes through trauma and doesn’t have the luxury (and yes, it is a luxury) of working through it, their reasoning skills can become flawed as a result. Trauma, especially childhood trauma, tends to have a negative effect on our ability to socialize and form intimate relationships, because it damages our ability to interpret the intentions of others. We call this hostile attribution bias.

The problem with hostile attribution bias, is that it makes it difficult to tell when people genuinely mean you harm. If a person’s words, actions, or facial expressions are ambiguous in any way, they will be interpreted as being hostile in nature. This keeps one on the offensive, constantly, always anticipating the next blow. Very often, no such blow is coming. But it doesn’t matter. Fear is real, and the experience of it is real.

It stands to reason that someone who struggles to interpret the intentions of real-life people would also experience the same difficulty with fictional characters. For instance, fans who identify with Loki because they perceive him as being a victim will have a hard time seeing him as anything else. Thus, anyone who harms Loki in any way is just further proof that the universe is against him and always will be.

This is referred to as an external locus of control. It means that a person sees life as something that is happening TO them, and that they are powerless to affect the outcome. It’s also important to note that people with this mentality struggle deeply to heal from their trauma. They are stuck in a sort of Groundhog Day scenario, living the same thing out over and over again. Because of their flawed perception, everything that happens to them feels like an extension of that initial trauma.

So, it would make perfect sense that a person with a history of trauma, who suffers from attribution bias, and who has an external locus of control, would be extremely uncomfortable watching anything bad happen to Loki. In fact, it would probably be traumatic for them.

And while their feelings and their experience of those feelings are 100% real, their perception of reality is not entirely accurate. In other words, what they think is happening is not necessarily what is happening.

Loki’s initial trauma, believe it or not, was just being abandoned as an infant. Even though he can’t remember it, that experience alone can result in lifelong emotional struggles. In real life, we refer to this as an attachment disorder. A person with an attachment disorder usually develops major issues with abandonment. They also suffer from (wait for it) attribution bias. And that bias absolutely affects their perception.

Loki’s next trauma was being raised in a dysfunctional family. Not only were they dysfunctional, but they weren’t a very good fit for Loki. Loki was a quiet, contemplative person. He was a thinker, an intellectual. He would rather read or do magic. So, not a good fit for Asgardian society. The combination of Loki’s initial trauma, with his inherent temperament, and his dysfunctional family is what led to the inevitable breakdown that is regarded as Loki’s “villain” arc. I’d like to point out that, in reality, such a person would have probably suffered a breakdown much sooner than that. Typically, prior to reaching adulthood.

Loki’s next trauma was encountering Thanos. Now, we have no idea exactly what happened between Loki and Thanos. We know only that it wasn’t good and that it resulted in Loki being absolutely terrified of him. Other than that, details are fuzzy. I think it’s fair to assume that whatever mistreatment Loki endured probably qualified as torture. Whether it was physical or psychological, we cannot know for sure.

While Loki’s Thanos-related trauma was NOT an extension of his family-related trauma, his decision to entangle himself with Thanos was a product of that trauma. By which I mean that his willingness to align himself with someone like Thanos came from a place of desperation, and a desire to prove himself to someone who he perceived as being qualified to validate him.

So, fast forward to the LOKI show. Our version of Loki never returned to Asgard in chains, was never told that it was his birthright to die, nor endured any gaslighting from Ragnarok-Thor. He never got his neck broken by Thanos. He never went through any of that. He arrived at the TVA, fresh off his failed attempt to take over planet Earth. He was all fired up and defensive, as anyone in his situation would probably be.

Now, here’s where we need to put our critical thinking caps on. Because, I hate to tell you this, folks...but unlike most of the Loki content we’ve gotten prior, this content is actually well written. It’s VERY well written. And while it might be tempting to respond to it with pure emotion, it is imperative that we don’t abandon all logic and reason. This show is not an extension of the gauntlet of trauma we’ve watched Loki endure since he first appeared on screen. The creative minds involved in this venture ALL care deeply about Loki’s character and want to see him succeed (whatever that means for him).

Enter Mobius. He’s a cog in a very big machine. He likes to think of himself as being more than that. He establishes a rapport with his boss in the hopes of distinguishing himself from his peers. His interest in his work is personal. He likes what he does.

From Mobius’ point of view, Loki is an asset. He has information that could help solve the bigger puzzle. But Mobius exists in a world that affords him access to multiple realities. He has probably met dozens of Lokis. And he has probably seen hundreds of people casually pruned or executed or reset. It’s just part of the world he happens to be in. And he doesn’t question it, because he has been brainwashed.

So, does Mobius attempt to manipulate Loki? Absolutely. Just another day at the office. And it works, because he knows Loki better than Loki knows himself, has studied him and other Lokis. And it’s hard not to be mad at Mobius for causing Loki pain. Especially when that is followed up by Loki eagerly taking Mobius up on his offer to help track down the other Loki variant.

I think some people might find Loki’s enthusiasm disconcerting. And there are certainly aspects of it that can be considered such. Loki, at his core, just wants to be told that he is doing a good job, that his contributions matter. That part of him is definitely a product of trauma. But is Loki motivated entirely by his trauma? Not really. Despite his manipulations, Mobius offers Loki the closest thing to warmth and compassion that he has seen for a while. Some of that is genuine and some of that is not. And faced with the reality that everything he knows is gone, Loki does what most people in his situation would do, he tries to be productive. He gets busy. He distracts himself. Because at the moment, little else is under his control.

Despite all of that, you simply cannot have compassion for Loki and none for Mobius. Because Mobius is a victim too. He was abducted from his own reality. He is living a lie. He is part of something that, upon deeper reflection, he realizes he doesn’t agree with. He is so very much like the Loki we first met in 2011. He is such a well-written and multi-faceted character, I thoroughly enjoy his on screen time with Loki.

But I understand that there are people who are not in a place, emotionally, where they can overlook such plot devices. And I sincerely hope that those eventually people find healing. In the meantime, let’s try to remember that this is a work of fiction. And unlike real-life trauma, when it becomes upsetting, we can turn it off and walk away.

#loki spoilers #loki show meta #mobius meta #loki show spoilers #juliabohemianrant #juliabohemian #loki meta #mental health awareness #reactive attachment disorder #external locus of control #hostile attribution bias #early childhood trauma

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9worldstales · 3 years

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MCU The Avengers - How did the fandom came to believe Loki was tortured by Thanos? (aka when God, Saint Paul and Dante seem to say the same thing)

Everyone has probably heard how there are people who say that, after falling into the Void at the end of “Thor”, Loki was tortured by Thanos and then sent to Earth. Of course every time this story comes up there’s a debate because this is not explicitly shown and some say it’s just a theory (word of Dante), some say someone involved with the work said so (word of Saint Paul) and some says the creators, be it Marvel or Joss Whedon or another director/scriptwriter said so (word of God).

Well, the truth is a collective chat about the three.

But first...

SOURCES MENTIONED:

Movies: “The Avengers” (2012), “Guardians of the Galaxy” (2014), “Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2″ (2017), “Avengers: Infinity War”

Series: “Loki” (2021)

Comics: None mentioned

Direct-to-video animated film: None mentioned

Motion comics: None mentioned

Books: “The art of The Avengers” (2012)

Novels: “Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: The Avengers” (2015)

Webs: The official Marvel web

Others: Interview: “‘Thor: The Dark World’: Tom Hiddleston on boom times for evildoers”, Interview: “Tom Hiddleston - live on stage Q&A: Popcorn Tax.i October 8, 2013, Event Cinemas George Street, Sydney”, Interview: “Tom Hiddleston THE AVENGERS Set Visit Interview”, Interview: “Joss Whedon told Comic-Con the question he doesn’t want us to ask ever again”, Interview: ‘Avengers: Infinity War’ director explains why a major death had to happen so early in the movie, Script: “The Avengers”, Interview: Secrets Revealed in Joss Whedon’s Avengers DVD Commentary

Let’s start with...

WORD OF DANTE (aka fancanons)

Undoubtedly fans noticed some suspicious things in Loki which has brought them to draw certain conclusions.

1) At the end of “Thor”, when he control Selvig, his face seems to be bruised, as if he had been beaten. It’s easy for fans to assume if he seems to be beaten maybe... well, he was?

2) When he arrives, in “The Avengers”, in some scenes he seems unsteady on his feet and in poor shape as if he’d been beaten and, in one scene, he seems unable to stand straight. Same as above, Loki will prove through the movie he’s very resistant. If something made him unsteady on his feet... well, this can mean someone beaten him.

3) The Other threatens him and keeps him under surveillance, as if he’s controlling him somehow, both during the movie and in a deleted scene, which seems to imply Loki is working under coercion more than willingly.

THE OTHER: You will have your war, Asgardian. If you fail, if the Tesseract is kept from us, there will be no realm, no barren moon, no crevice where he can’t find you. You think you know pain? He will make you long for something as sweet as pain. [The Avengers]

4) Some wondered if Loki could have ended up being possessed as well by the sceptre as the sceptre could control minds.

5) Some noticed how Loki’s eyes appear as blue in “The Avengers”, a characteristic of the possessed guys, while in “Thor” they seem to be green was a hint Loki was possessed, same as Selvig and Barton.

6) Some wondered if Thanos might have tortured him to force him to cooperate as Thanos is known for having tortured people working under him. We saw him torturing Nebula in both “Avengers: Infinity War” and “Avengers: Endgame” and we also have those bits:

Gamora: He’s not my father. When Thanos took my home world, he killed my parents in front of me. He tortured me, turned me into a weapon. [Guardians of the Galaxy]

Nebula: You were the one who wanted to win. And I just wanted a sister! You were all I had. But you were the one who needed to win. Thanos pulled my eye from my head… and my brain from my skull… and my arm from my body… because of you. [Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2]

Gamora: All my life, I dreamed of a day... a moment when you would get what you deserved. And I was always so disappointed. But now... you kill and torture... and you call it mercy. The universe has judged you. You asked it for a prize, and it told you no. You failed. And do you wanna know why? Because you love nothing. No one. [Avengers: Infinity War]

7) Others assumed that, if Thanos didn’t do it personally, another of his children could have done it for him. We saw Ebony Maw torturing Stange in order to get the stone for Thanos.

Ebony Maw: You’ll only wish you were dead. [Avengers: Infinity War]

8) Since Thanos was willing to kill Rohan should he fail to bring back to him the orb, Thanos would have killed Loki if he hadn’t brought back the Tesseract so Loki was working for him under coercion.

Thanos: I shall honour our agreement, Kree. If you bring me the Orb. But return to me again empty-handed... ...and I will bathe the stairways in your blood. [Guardians of the Galaxy]

Ebony Maw: In all the time I’ve served Thanos, I’ve never failed him. If I were to reach our rendezvous on Titan with the Time Stone still attached to your vaguely irritating person, there would be... judgement. [Avengers: Infinity War]

9) Loki’s willing cooperation wasn’t needed if Thanos had the feeling Loki could do it. He had blackmailed Gamora into giving him the location of the soul stone and he had killed Tivan to get the reality stone.

World of Dante is, as usual, very charming but if not supported by anything else it can’t ascend to canon. This doesn’t mean it’s false unless Word of God ends up stating the opposite, but this doesn’t mean it’s true either. Just possible but unproved.

So is there someone else that’s a little stronger than fan theories?

Enter...

WORD OF SAINT PAUL (aka what Tom Hiddleston says)

For start that he has blue eyes and, from the way he speak, apparently he was never made wear green eye contacts.

Loki is a sexy villain, but that’s not part of his ambition, is it? He doesn’t seem to be interested in love or sex but he has this sexuality about him, maybe it’s his lust for power. What do you think of Loki as a sexy beast? [Laughs] That’s the first time anyone has ever used that phrase about Loki. It’s fascinating isn’t it? I don’t know because it’s not a part of the conscious construction. I take relish in playing him. I think there’s a physical self-possession about him, a self-acceptance. Of course I’ve been very exacting about his physicality. You know, I was born with very blonde, curly hair, and a mixture of Scottish and English genes, and my complexion is very ruddy and healthy. In making him with this raven black hair and blanching my face of all colour, it changes my features. Suddenly my blue eyes look a lot bluer, which lends a severity to my face. And even my own smile has a distorted menace to it. Whatever comes through me naturally is distorted. It’s almost like a filter on a light. [‘Thor: The Dark World’: Tom Hiddleston on boom times for evildoers]

This disproves Fan theory point number 5. You might have noticed though that the theory about Loki being possessed by the sceptre is point 4. You’ll see later why I hadn’t placed those two points together.

And now let’s see what he has to say about what happened between “Thor” and “The Avengers.

In your opinion, what happen to Loki when he fell in to the void? Like, what did he experienced? HIDDLESTON: “You mean at the end of Thor?” “Yeah.” HIDDLESTON: “I think he went like with everything else to… Joss Whedon and I discussed it, to a sort of… hum… as… It was like the worst place imaginable. I think, he went to sort of all of the darkest recesses of the Universe, you know. I’m sure he had a brush with… with... with... several brushes with death. I think he ran into the shadiest characters you can find in the Nine Realms. I think he had to rely on his wits to protect himself. Hum… It was really, really, really unpleasant, I think. Umm… and all I have to, you know, I don’t have any frame of reference for that, really, except for imagining what it might be like to be… I don’t know, to be kidnapped by sort of a terrorist cell or something. And have to survive very very frightening and precarious existence. But whatever it was, it was important when Loki came back for the Avengers. Whatever compassion he had left, was absolutely kind a shrivelled to a minimum. Because of the experience he had. Harrowing, I think, and scarring for life. In a way that Odin and Thor, and Frigga find very, very difficult to understand. It’s a good question. Happy Birthday.” [Tom Hiddleston - live on stage Q&A: Popcorn Tax.i October 8, 2013, Event Cinemas George Street, Sydney]

How different is Loki in this film when compared to how he is in Thor? I think that he comes into his own power at the end of Thor. Is he just very angry and bitter in this film? HIDDLESTON: Well, what can I say here? I swear to you that in that building over there, there are sniper rifles. [laughs] I think that what was interesting about the journey of Loki in Thor is that he went from second string and damaged prints to being the God of mischief and God of evil. I think somewhere between the end of Thor and the beginning of The Avengers, Loki has been to the Marvel equivalent of the 7th circle of hell. At the end of Thor you see him let go. He lets go of the spear, he lets go of Asgard, and he lets go of the need of his brother and father’s affection and approval. He has bigger plans now. [Tom Hiddleston THE AVENGERS Set Visit Interview]

HIDDLESTON: “At the end of Thor, Loki lets go of that spear and falls into a wormhole,” Hiddleston said. “And the question in the audience’s mind, one hopes, is what happens to Loki in that moment? And in the time between the end of Thor and the beginning of The Avengers, Loki has explored the shadowy highways and byways of the universe – and he’s met some terrible, terrible people and probably has some awful experiences, which he has survived and overcome. So by the time he arrives in The Avengers, he knows the extents of his power – and he’s unafraid to use it. And more importantly, he’s unafraid to enjoy it.” [The Art of The Avengers]

There’s actually more but I think I’ll stop here.

Overall Tom Hiddleston seems to be a big supporter of something terrible happening to Loki, something equivalent to being ‘to the Marvel equivalent of the 7th circle of hell’* evidently at the hands of someone, the ‘shadiest characters you can find in the Nine Realms’, ‘some terrible, terrible people’.

Basically he says ‘I don’t have any frame of reference for that, really, except for imagining what it might be like to be… I don’t know, to be kidnapped by sort of a terrorist cell or something. And have to survive very very frightening and precarious existence.’

[*7th circle of hell: For who’s curious the 7th circle of hell in Dante Alighieri’s Divina Commedia is where are punished those who had committed violence against others and against themselves (suicides). Loki committed both sins. For Dante people who committed violence against people is immersed in a river of boiling blood with centaurs shooting arrows at those who try to escape while suicides are transformed into bushes and trees, gnarled and thorny, fed upon by the Harpies for all time. Likely that’s not what was done to him but anyway that’s not a nice place to be.]

Yes, Tom Hiddleston never said it was Thanos and his men who ‘kidnapped Loki and put him through the equivalent of the 7th circle of hell’. He’s very vague on this but we now Tom Hiddleston is careful not to give information which could constitute spoilers.

He also never mentions Loki being mind controlled as far as I know.

So we need an even higher source.

We need...

WORD OF GOD, or, in this case the WORD OF GODS, plural, because in the Marvel world there’s plenty of people who can claim authorship for the stories of those characters.

Whedon avoided speculating about his future plans, claiming he had too much on his plate to think about what will come next, but he did reveal that he’s bothered by a bit of unresolved backstory for Loki. At the end of Thor, Loki was emotional conflicted, but at the beginning of Avengers, he’s a demented villain, with no qualms about unleashing alien hell on Earth. Asked about how happened in between, Whedon said: “Well, I can’t tell you exactly what went on because it’s this dark, dark secret that I didn’t make up yet. But, the other day, I had trouble with that because he had this very passionate Shakespearean tragedy thing going on in Thor and then I needed a villain who’s not only capable, but ready and willing and anxious to take on all these heroes. For me, he just basically went on some horrible walkabout… That was pretty much as far as I got.” [Joss Whedon told Comic-Con the question he doesn’t want us to ask ever again]

God confirms what Tom Hiddleston said, Loki went through something terrible... but he had no idea what because he still had to work on it. He didn’t want to establish what. But, as I said, Marvel has plenty of Gods willing to talk.

After Loki fell in the wormhole... where did he fell?

Arriving at the Sanctuary through a wormhole caused by the Bifrost, Loki met the Other, ruler of the ancient race of extraterrestrials the Chitauri, and Thanos. Offering the God of Mischief dominion over his brother’s favorite realm Earth, Thanos requested the Tesseract in return. Gifted with a Sceptre that acted as a mind control device, Loki would be able to influence others. Unbeknownst to him, the Sceptre was also influencing him, fueling his hatred over his brother Thor and the inhabitants of Earth. [MARVERL official web]

So no, after falling into the wormhole Loki didn’t go on a touristic trip through the universe, met someone bad unrelated to Thanos, changed and then met up with Thanos.

He straight out ended up at the Sanctuary and met with the Other who worked for Thanos.

Yes, they don’t say he got tortured in this bit but they confirm the sceptre was influencing him, ‘fueling his hatred over his brother Thor and the inhabitants of Earth’.

There’s some more that comes from Joe Russo and Stephen McFeely.

If you’ve watched every movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, you shouldn’t have been too surprised Thanos killed Loki. His death has been a long time coming since 2012’s “Avengers.” You may not recall, but it was Loki’s job in “Avengers” to secure the Tesseract and deliver it to Thanos. Loki never made good on that promise. It was only a matter of time before Thanos came after him to collect. Co-director Joe Russo says Thanos ultimately murders Loki “for disobedience.” “Remember, he [Thanos] had a relationship with Loki, even if it was off-screen where he entrusted him with a duty in ‘Avengers 1’ and Loki failed,” pointed out “Infinity War” screenwriter Stephen McFeely. “He’s [Thanos] making him [Loki] pay,” added Joe Russo. “Thanos has a long memory,” McFeely concluded. [‘Avengers: Infinity War’ director explains why a major death had to happen so early in the movie]

And then... then there’s something that’s even above World of God.

So finally we have...

CANON, aka what the movies say, and they say the weirdest canon lines in this regard if I can say so.

Thanos: [Walks over and drops Loki’s body in front of Thor.] No resurrections this time. [Avengers: Infinity War]

Loki: Is that the only reason you brought us here? To kill us? I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve been killed, so go ahead. Do your worst. [Loki Ep 4]

How all this translates? (aka Word of Dante comes back because God and Saint Paul are just too obscure and canon is no better)

If Loki after falling into the wormhole ended up straight to the Sanctuary, the ones who played the part of the terrorists and lead him to an experience similar to ending in the 7th circle of hell where he had many brushes with death where either Thanos or his men.

Do your pick if the Other took care of it personally, if Thanos did the job or if he let the pleasure to Ebony Maw and what they did to him, if they forced him to fight with others same as Gamora and Nebula where forced to do, with the loser also losing a body part or if they just beat him.

The fact that Loki, in the “Loki” series say he has been killed so many times he lost count and that Thanos in “Avengers: Infinity War” says there will be no resurrection this time seem to be connected.

That Loki as far as we know only attempted suicide by letting himself fall in a wormhole once, and Thanos couldn’t know Loki was given up for dead in Svartalfheim so the idea that Loki was killed many time and that Thanos know he had been resurrected should be connected.

How? That’s beyong my understanding as, as far as I know, no one in Thanos’ group has resurrecting powers. Can the mind stone do it? This would open up another theory.

As for the sceptre controlling him ‘fuelling his hatred over his brother Thor and the inhabitants of Earth’ what does that mean?

That he’s clearly not completely brainwashed as Selvig and Hawkeye.

So which is his level of brainwashing?

Very likely it’s at the same level as the one of the Avengers when they are in the same room and start arguing and the discussion degenerates to the point they seemed about to go at each other while the gem in the sceptre starts to glow, which is something both the script and the novelization reference...

[As the “team” argues, they don’t realize the BLUE GEM on Loki’s sceptre is glowing brightly.] [“The Avengers” Script]

None of them noticed when the gem set into Loki’s sceptre started to glow. [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: The Avengers”]

...and that the visual remark, turning the scene upside down as the gem is in full focus.

The novelization describes them as arguing without even knowing exactly what they’re arguing about.

Tony and Cap squared off over an argument that they couldn’t remember starting. Tony was still mad about the last thing Cap had said to him... whatever it was. [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: The Avengers”]

We also see Bruce picking up the sceptre without realizing, something that’s referenced both by the script and the novel.

BANNER: You wanna know my secret, Agent Romanoff? You wanna know how I stay calm? [BLACK WIDOW and Fury have their hands down to grab their guns.] STEVE: Doctor Banner... put down the sceptre. [BANNER LOOKS DOWN AND IS SHOCKED TO SEE HE’S HOLDING LOKI’S SCEPTRE. The computer beeps. They all turn to it.] [“The Avengers” Script]

“Dr. Banner,” Cap said. “Put down the sceptre.” Bruce looked down. He hadn’t even known he’d picked it up. He looked back up and saw Natasha’s hand on her sidearm. Fury was also ready to draw. The others were drawing back from him as well. Even though he could see what was going on, the hostility in the air was still tick enough that Bruce didn’t know wherever he could back everyone down... or wherever he could back himself down. He could feel the tension rising inside him. He could feel the monster trying to get loose. [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: The Avengers”]

The implication is that the sceptre is influencing them, pulling out their worst feelings and competitively and whatever which matches with what it did with Loki, it fuelled his hate.

It’s interesting how, when Loki arrives on Earth, the gem is glowing...

Also, the stranger held a kind of spear in his right hand. Set into its head, a gem glowed the same icy blue as the energy that had spilled from the Tesseract. [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: The Avengers”]

...and he also looks at the sceptre as if he hadn’t realized having it in his hand.

“Sir,” Fury called as armoured S.H.I.E.L.D. agents closed nearer, “Please put down the spear.” The man looked at the sceptre as if he had only just noticed he had it. Then, slowly, he looked back up at Fury, and a vicious smile spread across his face. [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: The Avengers”]

It’s worth to mention though, in that scene in which the Avengers argue, none of the Avengers has his eyes turning blue, although they weren’t themselves any longer.

So, it’s possible this is the distinction, Clint and Selvig have completely lost their will and are subjugated to Loki’s will, and as a result they��ve the blue eyes, Loki and the Avengers instead only had their mind warped by increasing exponentially their negative feelings to the point they might have started losing focus of the situation and only operate on negative feelings... if that’s make sense. They’re still themselves but their perception is warped so they’re acting in a way that’s not normal for them.

On another note it seems that in Joss Whedon’s Avengers DVD Commentary he said that

Hawkeye’s blue “possessed eyes” were added in post very late in the game, to make it more obvious that he and Eric Selvig were under Loki’s influence. [Secrets Revealed in Joss Whedon’s Avengers DVD Commentary]

This means that originally they weren’t meant to turn blue.

In the novel there’s no mention of it, in the script they’re described just as glowing black and then nothing more.

LOKI: You have heart. [Loki places the tip of the spear against Barton’s chest. Barton’s eye glow black, and he stops resisting. Loki begins controlling other agents around the room. Fury sneak up, grabs the Tesseract, and places it in a briefcase, trying to sneak out.] [“The Avengers” Script]

In the movie instead they turn all black for a moment and then settle on blue.

It’s an unnatural blue though, where Loki’s normal.

But again, this too is a fan explanation. A fan explanation based on canon, but still a fan explanation since God didn’t bother to explain further and at this point I’m afraid he’s not even interested in explaining it since the “Loki” series could have dug on this and instead expressed 0 interest in digging into the past movies.

Sometimes we’ve just to accept that fan theories are all we have and that we can like or dislike them.

And that’s all. Thank you to who remained till the end of this long post!

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loxxxlay · 3 years

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Sighhhhh, it's just so uncomfortable because I respect ppl's need to have negative feelings over the media I'm enjoying, but also those negative feelings being everywhere and over everything kinda makes it hard for me to formulate an opinion?

Like I'll be sitting watching the movie or show, thinking "omg that's Bad, the fans won't like That" at the same as "well this subset of fans might like it" but also "here's an argument why even that subset of fans shouldn't like it" and on and on, and I get so tensed up that I'm watching the show/movie through eyes that are not my own lol. They're not even anyone else's eyes. They are my perception of everyone else's eyes. And then I'll dip into fandom and everything I thought they wouldn't like, they actually did, and they actually picked up on things that I didn't notice and ripped those parts to shreds too. And like, that's fine, but then oftentimes the rhetoric evolves into a "This Is How Everyone Felt About It" holier-than-thou tone, and apparently I'm not a true fan if I disagree.

And like that was fine with Ragnarok, because I was able to watch it like 4 times before seeing fandom's perspective, so I can still watch that movie the way I originally enjoyed it without all of the tumblr rhetoric going through my head (most days anyway). But this. This is like if I was watching Ragnarok for the first time in theaters, except every ten minutes they paused the movie, and I'd have to pull out my phone, scroll down Tumblr, and see everyone fight over their opinions of how IC or OOC Loki is, and how dumb the writers are, and then I'd go back to watching the next ten minutes with all of that in my head, actively critiquing every second, every frame. It's torture, I tell you. :(

And yeah, you might be saying, "Hey Echo! Maybe you have an unhealthy relationship with social media! Maybe when a new show comes out, you should not go on Tumblr."

Yeah that'd be fucking nice, except,

1, I have ADHD and if you expect me to somehow just not do the impulsive thing of using the site when I'm really excited and impulsive, then I feel like maybe you don't support mentally handicapped people;

2, this shit doesn't have an expiration date. Like I said the Ragnarok discourse still affects me years later whenever I try to watch it, even when I'm actively on hiatus; and

3, most importantly, maybe I have a right to use social media as I see fit because I want to enjoy fandom spaces and I find something in that worthwhile to me? and maybe it's okay to feel upset about something that doesn't have a solution?

It's really frustrating T____T because ughhh, I've been on the other side too. I've tagged and I've made see-more cuts and I've warned, and people still were actively upset by my constant IW/EG discourse (though.... there are proper ways to handle that upset, ppl who attacked me directly >.>). So I in no way am trying to say "stop being critical of your media" (unless of course you are doing it in the forementioned holier-than-thou way). I'm actually just saying this suckkkkssss and there's no solution which sucks even moreeeeee.

Like there are quite a few things about the Loki show that I did not like. Episode 1 was highkey the worst. Episode 3 was the best, but even there, I was like "did you have to though?" in a few places. But I don't even want to talk about those things because it's sucking the joy out of it. But I also do want to talk about those things because I don't want people to just be flailing in unconditional praise either, which makes me uncomfortable in an entirely different way.

In other words, my brain is broken lol, and I want a refund :( Why do our passions have to be so messy

#lox whines #lox talks personal #this is just a vent at the void for being so voidlike #.#oh before i forget - nobody comment and recommend x-kit to me i will flay you #i know it exists and i'm getting there #adhd remember lol #loki series

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gingerwritess · 4 years

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Ok crazy thought. So if the last predating is to go through with Loki being tortured and reader saving the day like a boss, would Loki be hooked up to machines? More specifically a heart rate monitor? That for some reason increases when you get close? And goes ballistic when you touch him?

part 17, in which you absolutely snap

warnings: a big phat long chapter, prisoner situations, lots of emotions, the beginnings of tension, and big reactions

You’re mad—but you’re not exactly sure if you’re supposed to be.

Technically you didn’t kiss Loki. You kissed Laing, and it was all part of keeping up your cover, so automatically…no strings attached.

But the so-called god now strapped to the hospital bed a few doors down is definitely the one who’s lips had been on yours, at one time or another.

He’s also the highly dangerous criminal wanted by most of the worlds officials, who you also at one point let shower in your home, sleep under your desk, sat on his lap, brushed his hair, fed him, clothed him, patched him up—

Sheesh, that’s enough.

You scrub at your mouth with your shirt sleeve, blanching at the memory of almost liking it.

Now—and you really shouldn’t be surprised—you get to answer for it all.

Thor is not helping.

“I knew it,” he announces and points a finger at you. “You are attracted to him! You like him in a physical, romantic sense of the word—”

“God, no, that’s–that’s not even close—”

“Easy, Thor.”

Luckily Tony shuts the other god up while you bury your face in your hands.

After Loki had passed out, you’d been escorted—in a much gentler fashion than he was—to a crisp white holding cell and given some remedies to try and sober you up as best they can.

You recognised it to be an interrogation room, much like the one you’d seen Loki cursed to before this whole thing got blown to hell, but at this point, you can’t care.

Steve is the first to come question you (probably because he’s the only completely sober one), and the first thing you can think to blurt is “don’t hurt him.”

Then you mentally smack yourself across the face—they already saw you kissing him. Now this?

Maybe Thor was right.

“I have to ask,” the captain slowly starts, “was the motivation of your…partnership…romantic?”

Even with how furiously you deny it, you still don’t think he believes you.

The night becomes morning before you know it, filled with endless questions and exhausting interrogations, which you answered completely truthfully and to the best of your ability.

Even taking the liberty to include some of Loki’s story.

When Thor was in the room, you jumped on the opportunity to describe just how beat up his brother is and how he’s been covering it up because of some “target” on his back, how he’s been lying through his teeth about every motivation for the attack, how he needs help.

You’re still mad—you’re mad at Loki for refusing to talk for so long, for being so damn stubborn he nearly got himself killed, and now for dragging you this deeply into the newest villainous conspiracy.

…and for becoming himself when you kissed him.

Kissing Loki was never the plan; you didn’t mind kissing Laing.

The sun is fully risen by the time you’ve covered the whole story from day one, almost down to every detail—the avengers don’t need to know how many times you accidentally saw him shirtless—and you still have a team of people grilling you.

Marcus lounges against the doorframe, gun limp in his hands and visor down, most likely to cover his eyes as he tries to catch a few winks of sleep, but another guard walks in and they both shoot to attention—a bit groggily.

“He’s awake,” she says, “and he said he wants to speak with all of you immediately.”

Your head shoots off the interrogation table with a start. “Huh??”

“You stay here,” Tony instructs, gut twisting when your face falls. “Look, I’m sorry, but as far as we know now, you’re in kahoots with a criminal. We have to take every precaution, alright? Just while we get this figured out.”

“Tony, he’s been lying—”

“I know, I know, you’ve told us.” He sighs, pinching the bridge of his nose. “But we’ve got hardly any proof of that. Give us some time.”

Motioning for the two guards to follow them, Steve, Tony, Bruce, a pretty hungover Clint, Natasha, and Thor head out, leaving you in the cell to freak out about what the next few hours hold by yourself.

You’ll be fired, without a doubt. Even if Loki does admit to any of what you told them, you still aided in his deception.

Damn it, why did you have to let him sleep under your desk??

Who in their right mind agrees to that?!

Worst case scenario, you stay in jail for a good chunk of your life. Loki will either be in the same position or worse—if he was that adamant about not returning to Asgard, you figure it’s execution that awaits him there.

Or something worse. They’re gods, they probably have something much worse.

The little cot is relatively comfortable; this isn’t a jail cell, technically. It’s a holding cell, for…characters of interest.

Which is now you, apparently.

Thanks, Loki.

It’s comfortable enough, and you slip into a dreamless slumber within minutes.

—

Eyes on you bring you back to the land of the living, that eerie, squirmy feeling that you’re being watched.

And you are: stifling a yawn and blinking to clear your eyes, you sit up to find Clint and Thor staring at you through the cell windows.

You can kind of understand why Loki hated it. It’s an awful feeling, being a trapped specimen to be watched and studied.

It’s Tony who opens the cell door, and followed closely by Thor and Clint, he leads you to a couch this time, not the interrogation table.

“What happened, what’d he say?”

Tony laughs uncomfortably, chewing his lip.

“This…isn’t going to be easy for you to hear,” he carefully tells you, stepping around his words. “You, uh, you were influenced in this whole ordeal.”

“What is that supposed to mean?” You laugh, looking around to each of their somber expressions. “C’mon, we were all a little drunk.”

“Not like that.” Tony sighs and presses his palms to his eyes. “You were, for lack of a better term, mind controlled. Loki had you under his flying monkey spell, he admitted to the whole thing.”

You gape at him, trying to process what he just said. “I was not—”

“I know it’s hard to hear,” Clint cuts in. “It’s an awful feeling. But he made me his right hand man, so…you’re not alone in this. Loads of us were affected by it, too.”

Mind controlled. This whole time??

You fall back against the couch with a thud, mind reeling.

He hadn’t mind controlled you. Sure, he threatened it, but you made every one of your decisions perfectly consciously. You chose to let him come over, you chose to feed him, and yes, you’re paying for it now, but everything you saw with your own two eyes and remember vividly as your own.

He did kind of coerce you into pretending to date him, and it was a little more like blackmail, and yeah, he did try to alter your memory, and–and…

“Shit.”

“We’ll give you a moment,” Tony quickly offers, patting you on the shoulder. “Clint is here if you need a companion with similar experience, don’t be afraid to talk through this.”

“Nooo, this can’t—”

“The good news is you’re in the clear!” The false cheeriness is anything but reassuring. “You don’t have to stay here if you don’t want to, but we do have some support, or therapy kind of things for people he hurt this way.”

You stare at Tony, then at Clint.

You’d seen footage of the assassin when he was under Loki’s control: terrifying and exceptionally believable, but nothing like what you looked like.

You take a deep breath and turn on Thor.

“Have you even thought to go talk to him??”

“Of course,” Thor immediately answers, brow furrowing. “He refuses to talk, he won’t say any more than what he wants to say.”

“But have you shown an interest in wanting the truth??”

“He’s the god of lies,” he exclaims, glaring right back at you.

Shoving up in the face of the god of thunder was never something you thought would happen, but here we are.

“That doesn’t mean anything, argh, you two are so stuck in your god complex��”

“Truth has never been his way,” Thor interrupts. “I tried to warn you he would do something like this, you can’t actually be surprised this happened.”

“Actually, I am, because apparently I’m the only person in here with an ounce of sense—you know what?” You drop your accusing finger and laugh. “Screw this. I wasn’t mind controlled.”

Then you turn on your heel and sprint down the hall to find Loki.

He’s being kept in a what’s basically a lab, and ten times worse than a cell: strapped at the wrists and ankles, he’s restrained to the bed but propped up slightly, an array of needles in his arms and cords reaching for monitors from his chest, and worst, a stupid little smirk on the lips you wish you hadn’t kissed.

“You little shit,” you hiss the moment you’re through the door. If it weren’t for the injuries still hiding beneath his facade, you’d slap him, but you resolve to grabbing the cup of water by the bed and throwing it in his face.

That wipes the smirk right off his face.

“You didn’t mind control me!”

Sputtering and shocked, he opens his mouth—

“No,” you snap, shoving a finger in his face. “No more bullshit, you didn’t mind control me. I saved your ass and I did it by choice. And I don’t regret it! You didn’t have any say in that, and yeah, you threatened it, but I never let you.”

Thor and the others crash through the doorway after you and come to a screeching halt as your rant rages.

Loki’s eyes flicker to them and for a split second he considers just taking all his strength and leaving—this can’t end well.

“Don’t even think about it,” you warn, and lean over him with a gaze so threatening and fiery the heart monitor next to him starts beeping steadily faster.

You pretend not to notice.

“I’m trying to help you,” he whispers, trying to keep up the cocky facade, but his eyes almost plead. “Trust me—”

“Trust you.”

You turn to Thor with a hysterical, exhausted laugh. “He wants me to trust him!”

The other God’s face twists in confusion.

“I don’t trust you,” you spit back at Loki. “You haven’t earned that, but I don’t want you to die, either.”

Loki’s eyebrows lift, water droplets clinging to their curve.

“Why?”

Clenching your eyes shut and chewing your bottom lip, the right words just won’t come to you.

“It’s a valid question,” Thor helpfully adds from the doorway—and in that moment, you silence a god with one burning look.

“Because I don’t—I haven’t found any…ugh.”

“See,” Loki cuts in, “alterations to the mind—”

“Because I already should’ve killed you,” you blurt, then clap a hand over your mouth, eyes wide.

Nobody moves, all staring as you try to sort through everything that’s come to light.

“The day I first saw you,” you grit out, glaring at the stubborn god, “I wanted to hurt you, I wanted you to die and I made a stupid judgement call and decided that’s what should happen.”

“Thanks,” Loki dryly remarks.

“Shut up. I shot you, that time you showed up in my office, and I really thought I–I shot you—but, um, you didn’t die.”

Your hands clench into fists by your thighs.

“And now I have to live with that guilt, even though it didn’t actually go through. So…I don’t want you to die, ‘cause after everything you’ve failed to hide from me, I don’t think you deserve to.”

The room falls silent, and Loki shifts uncomfortably on his pillow.

Damn it all to hell, maybe you were mind controlled. Where did that come from??

“Sorry,” you mumble; then with one last decision, refill the cup with water and fling it in his face again.

Just for…everything’s sake.

You flop into the nearest chair and drop your head into your hands with a groan.

“So…”

Tony clears his throat, gaze falling on Loki.

He’s never seen the god trying so hard to look like himself.

“You better start freaking talking.”

Loki considers it for half a moment—eyes flitting to you and really weighing the options—and with a twitch of his lips, his restraints fade and he stands.

“Mm…no.”

The plan was to fade into nothing and leave them all grasping for him right at that moment, but you’re on him in an instant, tackling him back onto the bed.

“YOU’RE GOING TO FUCKING TALK,” you screech, pinning him to the mattress. “YOU’RE GOING TO TELL THE TRUTH AND WE’RE GOING TO HELP YOU, YOU LITTLE—”

“Fine, fine, norns,” he gasps, struggling to catch your arms and flip the tables, “gods, woman, STOP—”

Thor moves to grab you, but you finally come to a stop simply holding Loki’s shoulders down—and straddling his hips, you realise, but like, professionally.

The heart rate monitor is going ballistic, and Loki can’t glare up at you with enough venom.

“You are the stupidest, most disdainful midgardian I have ever encountered—”

“Oh, cause all your interactions with mortals were so great,” you scoff, pressing down harder on his shoulders. “I’m sure all your subjects would agree—”

“Hey,” Tony cuts in, stepping closer to the two of you—on top of each other on a bed, you remember. Oh well. “What the hell is happening right now??”

“Loki is going to drop all his magic shit, right now.”

“Like Hel I am,” the god under you spits.

“Take it off,” you order and give him a good shake, “all of them, off, no magic.”

“Absolutely not.”

“Do it, dipshit—”

“No.”

“Yes!”

“No!” He mimics, that sick grin back on his face. “There’s no point at all—what are you doing??”

Practically ripping his shirt open, to be specific, and Thor gasps, positively scandalised by the image you can only imagine this looks like.

The beeping of his heart rate speeds to a ridiculous amount and you actually catch a deep flush spreading over his face; pushing the shirt from his shoulders, you climb off of him and take advantage of his fluster to shove him onto his side.

“HAH.”

You point in triumph at his back as he scrambles to pull the blanket over himself.

Gaze falling on the array of something on his brother’s back, Thor holds out a hand to summon mjolnir with a whoosh and a thud; he grabs Loki to push him onto his stomach before he can get away, and sets the hammer right on his butt.

“You have got to be joking.”

“Nice trick,” you tell Thor, clapping him on the shoulder before moving to stand beside Loki. “See? Told you.”

Thor moves first, stepping closer and reaching out a hand to poke one of the barely scabbed cuts on his brother’s back—you catch his wrist before he can.

“That’ll hurt.”

He can’t speak a word, silently staring at the plethora of half-bloody lashes striking across his brother’s skin. You can’t blame him.

“I hate every single one of you,” Loki announces from his pillow, still struggling to move. “You will pay dearly for this—”

“Yeah, yeah,” you cut in dismissively, “we know, you’re a big, tough, scary god. Now shush.”

You can practically hear him gritting his teeth together, no doubt holding himself back.

“So…someone did this to you?” Tony asks, cautiously scanning the god for other signs of abuse.

“No, I did it to myself, Iron Man.”

“Sorry, bad wording. Mind telling us who the hell we should be searching for, if it’s not you?”

“Thor, get your precious hammer off my arse—”

“C’mon, Thor.” You wave him over with a nod. “Let him talk to us when he can face us, I think he’s thoroughly humiliated.”

Thor removes the hammer, and you help Loki struggle to pull himself onto his pillows and face the rest of the group.

Most of the team has joined now, no doubt hearing the screaming matches from ten floors up, and sit sparsely around the little lab, waiting.

Finally situated, Loki draws in a slow breath, casting his gaze around the room at the somber faces.

You can’t help but notice when he makes eye contact with Clint and immediately gets a burning death glare in return—it only makes sense, after what Loki, or who you thought to be Loki, did to him.

“Talk to us,” you whisper, perching on the edge of his hospital bed.

The beeping from the heart rate monitor picks up in the slightest.

This time, you glance over to watch the little spikes get closer and closer together as Loki, the god of lies you almost killed, decides to tell the truth.

—

There’s a new air sitting heavy in the little room when Loki finishes, slumping back onto his pillows in defeat.

No one responds, and you don’t think anyone wants to.

To your surprise, Clint breaks the silence.

“No one should ever have their conscience ripped apart,” he states flatly, void of emotion and staring at the wall. “But you’ve got a long ways to go before you have my respect or forgiveness.”

That gets a couple nods scattered around the room.

“I am not asking for forgiveness,” Loki says, steeling himself. “And I certainly don’t need your respect. Just punish me, release me, kill me, make a decision.”

Steve stands with a slow exhale, gaze hard as concrete. “I think we need a moment,” he tells Loki, turning to nod to the rest of the team. “Thank you for your honesty. We’ll see to it that you’re healed, but past that…we’ll get back to you.”

Tony stands, too, shakey and deep in thought.

“Sorry you got pulled into this,” he says to you with a small smile. “But thanks for all your help. And thanks for jumping him, I don’t think he would’ve talked if you hadn’t.”

“Hey, don’t worry about it.” You point to the silent god next to you. “Thanks for believing me and letting him talk.”

Thor has yet to speak.

The rest of the team trickles out of the room, eventually leaving just the two of you and a couple guards stationed outside the door.

You certainly don’t want to talk first, so you slip off his hospital bed and wait uncomfortably by his bedside.

Not sure what you’re expecting, to be completely honest.

Maybe an apology for…everything, but your hopes aren’t too high.

Loki just picks at the palm of one hand, staring holes into the wall.

You clear your throat. “Well, I’m gonna go—”

“Thank you.”

That gets you to freeze. “Excuse me?”

“Thank you,” he repeats, still refusing to look at you. “I owe you a great deal.”

“I mean, I did try to kill you, so I think we’re even—”

“You’ve kept me alive,” he cuts in, “when I didn’t even want to be. That…annoyed me at the time, but if this is another chance they decide to give me, I–I suppose I owe it to you.”

It’s not an apology, but you’ll absolutely take it.

“Well.” Fighting back a smile, you drop your gaze to your hands. “Sorry for–for shooting you. And tasing you. And all that stuff.”

“Don’t be.”

A relieved breath lifts your chest and you give him a small smile.

“Mind if I stay a bit?” You point at the couch in the room, “I’m exhausted.”

He nods, fishing around in the blankets for his shirt again—it’s on the floor, but you find yourself deciding not to share that with him.

“Be my guest.”

You can’t help the sigh that leaves your lips as you sink into the cushions, as uncomfortable as they may be.

Maybe, for once, when you wake up, you can begin your normal life again, with no fake boyfriends and world-threatening secrets.

Then you remember you kissed a god last night.

Who’s still shirtless on a hospital bed, barely an arm’s reach from you.

“Loki?”

“What?”

“You passed out after I kissed you,” you grin, closing your eyes. “In case you didn’t remember.”

“And your point?” He doesn’t exactly sound happy to be reminded, but the beeping of his heart rate monitor speeds up again and tells differently.

“I gotta ask. If you passed out, how long has it been since—”

“Centuries,” Loki blurts much too quickly, and the beeping might’ve reached a concerning level. “Cut me some slack.”

“Centuries,” you repeat with a low whistle. “Well then.”

“It wasn’t because of that,” he assures you, wishing you’d just change the subject. “I was knocked out right afterwards by a guard, a fist straight to the head.”

“Right.” You smile at the ceiling, eyes still closed. “Definitely wasn’t the kiss.”

“Of course not.”

His heart rate hasn’t slowed.

Loki takes one look at the scribbled lines flashing furiously on the monitor and promptly rips the cords from his chest.

“Right.”

― ― ― ―

fuel the writer?

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endof-theline · 3 years

Text

Day 1 - Early Tropetember: Strangers To Lovers

Okay so I got super excited about Tropetember and forgot how months work, but I already started it sooo here we go!

Also I’ve not written anything serious in 2 years so please forgive me if it’s a bit rough, hyperfixations are a bitch!

On Ao3: https://archiveofourown.org/works/32301262

"I can't stand this anymore" Clint groaned as he watched Tony stare at Steve's back while he was cooking breakfast for the team "They have been doing this shit for months"

'This shit' was Steve and Tony tiptoeing around each other constantly since the New York battle that brought them together, the pair barely spoke to each other but were always looking at each other like they hung the stars. At first it was funny and the other Avengers all took bets when they would start dating, but pretty quickly it turned to almost annoying when the pair outlasted the bets and were still almost strangers despite seeming head over heels for each other.

"It's not like we can force them together, Clint" Bruce hissed through his teeth, worried about Tony hearing them even though Tony had tuned everyone out except for Steve's soft humming.

"I mean-" Clint went to suggest but cut himself off when Steve turned around with two plates in his hands, giving the first to Tony before handing the others theirs "Thanks Cap, looks great!"

A chorus of thank yous went around the table as Steve grinned before chuckling "It's no problem, it's nice to relearn this stuff, food tastes better now"

Despite coming from a time where most food was boiled to hell and back, Steve was becoming a good cook and he tried to cook at least once per day if not twice when it was possible for him to do it. Without knowing it, Steve cooking was the only thing that kept Tony from starving in his workshop since as soon as Tony found out Steve cooks for the team he had been coming up for any meals that Steve had made.

Natasha tried not to notice as Steve's eyes constantly flicked to Tony as they were eating, always making sure that the resident genius was enjoying the food he cooked, but failed as she held back a sigh and the temptation to knock their heads together.

"So Cap, now that we aren't in any immediate danger, do you think you'll start trying to date around?" Clint asked with a grin, Bruce just shut his eyes with a frown while Natasha, not for the first time, wondered how Clint ever became a spy.

Steve stammered for a second, eyes darting to Tony before darting away when he saw Tony staring at him "C-Can't say that I've thought about it, I-I mean it's not like I need to. I'm not as lonely living here, and I don't think I'd want to date a civilian or anyone from SHIELD either" Steve was completely red in the face as he rubbed the back of his neck, his eyes down awkwardly before looking back up to his team with a nervous smile.

"I get SHIELD, but why not civilian?" Clint asked curiously and smiled innocently when Steve gave him a weird look, Steve cocked an eyebrow but when nothing came of it he sighed.

"Well, for one it would be difficult to explain my job" He laughed as the others all chuckled in agreement "And I don't know, I worry that if it's someone that's not, y'know, like us I might hurt them by accident. I mean, I'm not sure how aware I am of my strength and I wouldn't want to do something to someone who could really get hurt. I patted Tony's shoulder in the suit and almost pushed him over the other week!"

"You didn't hurt me though" Tony piped up for the first time this morning, he was usually pretty quiet in the mornings until he had really woken up but since Steve started making breakfast Tony would stay silent and stare instead.

"But I could have, if you were out the suit then I could really hurt you" Steve stressed as Tony sat up straight and looked the other dead in the eyes.

"Since I'm the closest to a civilian that we've got, I'm excluding Bruce because of the other guy, why don't you practice with me? Just like friendly gestures and stuff so I can tell you if you need to be more careful" Tony suggested as the room went silent, Tony held his chin up slightly even as the tips of his ears started tinting pink "That why you can date a civilian without worrying"

"Y-Yeah alright then" Steve sounded almost a little breathless as he agreed, Tony just gave him a firm nod before loading his empty plate into the dishwasher and leaving the room. Steve, who had been staring fondly at Tony the whole time, shook his head a little and went back to his breakfast as the other three stared at each other in shock at how clueless they both were.

“Why don’t you practice with me?” Clint mocked in a whiny tone, that was apparently meant to be Tony’s voice, as he let himself into Tony’s workshop and flopped down onto the sofa that was usually Tony’s nap couch “Come on, Tony”

“Shut up, Clint” Tony muttered despite his face going red and his blush only got worse when Clint started to laugh at him “I just want to help, Steve should be able to date anyone he wants to”

“Like you?” Clint teased and got up when Tony’s shoulders hunched slightly “You know I’m only joking, Tony, besides the whole team knows that you have a crush on our fearless leader but he’s oblivious because of the huge crush he has on you”

“Don’t. Don’t say that” Tony’s voice was hard as Clint could see himself building up his walls, Clint put his hand on Tony’s and gently pushed it so he would let go of the screwdriver he was holding with a steel grip “Clint-”

“Nope, you don’t get to block me out and be all sad down here” Clint refused to let the genius talk, Tony getting frustrated easily as Clint kept interrupting him everytime he went to speak because the archer knew it was going to be self-deprecating. Tony sighed in defeat as he let go of the screwdriver and sat back in his chair, eyes going up to Clint that held so much uncertainty there that Clint immediately laced their fingers together and squeezed his hand “I wouldn’t get your hopes up like that for a joke, I’m an asshole but I’m not cruel”

“You’re not an asshole” Tony murmured as he squeezed Clint’s hand back and smiled up to him softly, his eyes drifted away nervously before flicking back to Clint’s face “I want to see if this practice thing works, if it doesn’t maybe I’ll talk to him”

“I can agree to that, just remember that boys show their affection by hitting and pulling pigtails” Clint teased and yelped when Tony took a swing at him, his hand going to his chest with a smile on his face “Aw Tones, I didn’t know you felt like that” Clint cooed at him before screaming as Tony threw the screwdriver at him, running out of the workshop before more things could be hurled his way.

Tony flopped back into his chair and rubbed his hands over his face with a groan, smudging oil and grease everywhere. Pepper was right, of course she was, Pepper was always right. Tony was hopeless when he actually liked someone and didn’t just want to take them to bed, he always got the same way of heart eyes and stupid smiles and getting shy about it.

When he was trying to flirt with Pepper, it had been the same way and it was just lucky that Pepper knew him so well to understand why his attitude changed around her. Steve was practically a stranger living in his home, the second Tony had seen him fighting with Loki in Germany he had to focus on anything else than the way Steve matched his height in the suit.

“Fuck” Tony groaned out into the empty room, feeling his heart race as he thought about Steve even being close to him let alone putting a hand on him. Out of the suit, Tony was shorter than average and you wouldn’t even be able to tell unless you caught him without shoes, which was rare, since he had lifts in all of his shoes. Steve would tower over him and just the thought of Tony having to go up onto his tiptoes as Steve had to lean down to meet each other's eyeline was enough to make him blush.

Oh he was so screwed, though little did Tony know that Natasha and Steve were having a very similar talk in the kitchen. Steve’s face a matching shade of pink to Tony’s and a rather smug look on Natasha’s face that probably would have matched Clint’s if Tony had chased him out.

The next week was torture for everyone that had to witness it. Steve had taken the excuse of practice and run a marathon with it, he was using every opportunity to touch Tony in some way which, naturally, just made Tony smile as the butterflies in his chest doubled. The rest of the team could only despair as they watched the pair falling for each other harder and harder everyday, they were close to locking them in the gym and not letting them out until they kissed.

Which, being the one brain-celled team that they were, happened at the end of week two. Tony had almost swallowed his tongue when Steve had patted his shoulder, his hand slipping a little closer to his neck and gently squeezing before walking away. It was past cute and getting past plain stupid as the pair danced around each other. So they did what any normal friends would do and locked them in the gym together, telling JARVIS to keep the door locked until they had talked it out.

“Natasha!” Steve shouted as he pounded on the door again, Tony just sat on the bench with his head in his hands “Natasha!”

“Stop Steve, they’re not gonna open it until we talk” Tony sighed and looked over when the bench dipped beside him, Steve flopping down next to him with a huff and scrubbing his face with his hands. He pulled his hands away and scrunched his nose up in disgust before grabbing the hem of his shirt and using it to wipe at his face, getting rid of the slight sheen of sweat from his workout that he had been in the middle of when Tony had been pushed into the gym.

Tony’s face went bright red as he caught himself staring at Steve’s abs, his eyes darting to Steve’s face to make sure he hadn’t been caught by the other man who had shut his eyes as he dropped his shirt.

“I’m sorry for making you uncomfortable, Tony” Steve said as he frowned up at the ceiling, eyes still closed so he couldn’t see Tony’s own frown and confused look “I know I shouldn’t have kept doing it when I realised you were uncomfortable, but-”

“What are you talking about?” Tony interrupted and Steve looked over so that they were just frowning at each other, Steve shifted to sit up properly and now that they were sitting next to each other it was clear to see their height difference without Tony’s lifts.

“The ‘practicing’” Steve said with air quotes that made Tony’s lip twitch into a small smile “You always go red and avoid looking at me, you’re obviously uncomfortable with me touching you even if I’m not hurting you”

“Okay that is completely wrong to start off with” Tony held up his hand before Steve could make himself feel even worse because it was pretty clear by his face and what he said that Steve was feeling pretty guilty about something that the blonde had made up “You definitely don’t make me uncomfortable and you also haven’t hurt me before you start worrying about that too”

“Then why do you always look awkward when I’m around, you go all quiet whenever I walk into the room?” Steve asked, still sounding insecure about the answer as his shoulders hunched over a little. Sat like this, Tony could picture Steve before the serum as girls blatantly regretted him like Howard had told him had happened in a drunken drawl on a night where his father was sad instead of angry.

“It’s, uh, really the opposite situation actually. You, uh, I mean-” Tony stammered for a moment before letting out the breath he was accidentally holding “I may have a small, well not really small, crush on you. I, um, I really like you Steve”

Tony kept his head down as the blush burned his face, his ears going red as he stared at his lap nervously, he startled when his chin was tilted up gently with the back of Steve’s hand under his chin so that he was looking up to Steve’s soft, almost fond, smile.

“You don’t know how happy I am to hear that” Steve whispered into the space between them, he bent down and gently rested his forehead against Tony’s with a smile that almost looked like it hurt “I really like you too, have done for a long time”

Tony smiled bashfully, his eyes darting away before going back up to Steve’s face, only to see that it was somehow a fonder look in his eyes and a knowing smile as he realised why Tony acted the way he did “Pepper says I’m hopeless when I like people, says that I change completely”

“Pepper’s right, but it’s nice, it’s like I get to see a side of you that no one else gets to see” Steve hummed softly which just made Tony blush harder as Steve cupped Tony’s cheek with a question in his eyes, Tony nodded against his forehead with a soft gasp “You sure, ‘cause I don’t think I want to let you go?”

“M’sure, I don’t want you to let go” Tony whispered, still feeling breathless as he stared up into Steve’s crystal blue eyes. Tony’s hand shot out to hold Steve’s wrist when the latter pressed a kiss to his lips, soft and careful and amazing, Tony couldn’t help the soft noise that escaped him as he leaned into the kiss and deepened it like he was dying. It had been a long time since anyone had kissed Tony with such care and fondness, used to the fast, hungry kisses from hookups and harsh touches compared to Steve’s soft hands cradling his face.

Outside the room, the rest of the team were celebrating despite the fact that they knew the pair were going to be disgustingly cute and fluffy with each other all the time, but at least now there wasn’t the sadness and pining going along with it. JARVIS unlocked the door silently and sent an automatic message to Pepper in their own celebration, it was something Pepper and Tony had set up after drinking far too much wine while Tony had been moping around about Steve and had thought today would never happen.

Today was a day to celebrate, even if tomorrow most of the team would regret it with how overly fluffy the pair were together, today was a long time coming and, hopefully, the two would stand the test of time to come.

#tropetember #eotl writes #fanfiction #stucky #Steve Rogers #Tony Stark #just a lot of fluff really

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carynsilver · 4 years

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Favorite Fics: Darcy Edition

It’s been a while since I’ve done one of these. Things started going on that hurt my soul, and I just felt like, who cares about some fic recs when people are getting hurt? But… I don’t know. I still find solace and comfort in reading stories, even when things are hard—especially when things are hard. So, I finally felt like maybe it was time for another. If the fic writers out there are giving me escape, warm fuzzies, and enjoyment during these weird times, then they deserve some love directed back at them.

So far, I’ve listed my top 10 favorite Stucky, Drarry, and Stony fics. I love them all, but… that is a lot of dudes. I decided it was time for a little girl power in my fanfic recs. One of my favorite BAMF female characters is Darcy Lewis—one of the best and most under-rated, under-explored characters in the MCU.

I love Darcy as the every-girl who has the moxie and chutzpa to hold her own in a life full of superheroes. The girl tased the God of Thunder because he was freaking her out, for goodness sake! I love her being BFFs with Jane, being Thor’s lightening sister, and creating a found family. I love her living in the tower and caring for all the superheroes and science geniuses like they won’t care for themselves. There’s enough leeway in her backstory for fun twists, too, like being Jewish, or—one of my absolute faves—secretly being the daughter of Tony Stark.

There are a ton of good Darcy fics out there, but these are my top 10. Thank you, writers, for sharing these amazing stories with us!

Casa de Island Avengers by @inkbert

I clicked on this story because of WinterShock (Darcy/Bucky), which is a favorite ship of mine (I feel my love of Bucky has been previously discussed at length, lol), but it has become one of my favorite fics of all time. Not even just in the MCU—if I were listed my top five fanfics ever read, this one is on the list.

The concept is simple—post-Ultron, the Avengers started falling apart as a team, so Steve spearheads the effort to get them all on a two-week vacation to Tony’s private island in a last-ditch bonding effort. Every character (except Thor, but he does get some good screen time) has his or her own point of view for at least a chapter or two. Sometimes, this leads to characters sounding the same, but @inkbert really grounds each character in their own backstory and makes their inner monologues sound unique. Then, so many wacky hijinks ensue—camping, drinking, movie nights, girl bonding, sailing, pranks, and the most competitive game nights and challenges you’ve ever seen.

The ships included are Darcy/Bucky, Steve/Natasha, Pepper/Tony, and Clint/Wanda, but this story isn’t only about the ships. It’s about all these crazy characters bonding—found family at its finest. This is probably my favorite Darcy/Jane BFFs story ever, and the Bruce/Tony science bro connection is classic. The story is fully seated in cannon (up through Ultron and moving to the ccmpound), except no Clint/secret family and Pietro lives. Read it. Read it now! And if you enjoy it, there are several one-shots that follow, including a Wanda-centric one that shouldn’t be missed.

Best Supporting Soulmate by Valeris

I love a good soulmate fic, and this is an excellent one. The first thing your soulmate says to you is written on your skin, and there are both romantic and platonic soulmates. Darcy has Jane as a platonic soulmate, but it’s her other soulmate who made her life crazy before she even met them. What are you supposed to do when your soulmate’s first words to you are to let them die?

The two primary ships in this fic are Wintershock and Stony, which work well together, but the story delves into a lot more relationships. I don’t love the whole amnesia trope in a Stucky fic because losing all that history and friendship hurts so much, but in a WinterShock fic, I have a real soft spot for Darcy being able to help post-HYDRA Bucky learn how to person again, and she does that in spades in this one. She also cultivates friendships with just about everyone in Avengers Tower and beyond. Darcy/Johnny Storm BFFs are amazing, and the deep friendship Darcy develops with Tony in this story gives me all the feels. This is a great version of BAMF Darcy who can see what the tortured characters need and is able to help them get there. And there is some interesting conflict with the Fantastic Four, as well.

This was one of the first, if not the first, WinterShock stories I ever read. I had been trying TaserHawk, but it wasn’t really my cuppa, and then somehow found this one and got hooked.

Road Trip of Champions by @leftennant

Natasha and Steve are going on a road trip. Steve wants Bucky to come with, but they feel like they need a fourth to make things even. Natasha bribes Darcy into coming with, and over the course of the trip, we get a lovely WinterShock romance. The road trip concept is fun, and Darcy and Bucky have a light enemies to friends to lovers vibe going on. Bucky is recovering, Darcy isn’t going to take anyone’s crap, and Natasha and Steve really just want a little private time along the way. And the bit at the end of the main story when they play paintball—classic and a scene that has stuck in my mind long after reading many other fics. The protective vibe Bucky has for Darcy after all this and how it even affects paintball is adorable. There are other one-shots in this ’verse as well that should not be missed. You might never think of lemons the same again.

Daybreak by @anogete

Anogete has a really good touch with snarky, caretaker Darcy. I love all her WinterShock stories, but this is the one that’s stuck with me the most. The concept of Darcy trying to help dismantle Bucky’s trigger words by creating new memories for each one was so compelling. The therapy aspect did give me pause (a personal thing; it is dealt with as respectfully as possible in the story), but it all works out in the end. The fact that I loved it so much despite a mild personal ping with the concept speaks to how well it’s written, honestly. :-) And, if this one isn’t to your taste, Anogete has plenty of great WinterShock to read, so definitely try one of them instead!

The Run ’Verse by themonkeycabal

Though it eventually becomes a WinterShock story, my favorite thing about this universe is the Tony-Stark-is-Darcy’s-father trope. This is probably my absolute favorite version of that relationship. There is also time travel, and BAMF Peggy Carter. And even though I don’t love the Darcy-becomes-a-Shield-agent thing as much as Darcy the Scientist Wrangler, this story has a great, cannon-compliant reason for why Tony, Clint, etc., weren’t able to come help Steve, Natasha, Sam, and Maria in CA:tWS. There are a ton of stories in this ’verse, and I enjoyed every single one. My favorite, though, is the one where Darcy and Tony go visit Howard’s forgotten secret bunker and have three generation’s-worth of overdue conversations.

A Morbid Taste for Ice by sitehound

This is probably my favorite TaserTricks story, though I haven’t read nearly as much Darcy/Loki as I have other Darcy ships. I think it’s because writing Loki in character and making it believable to me that Darcy would fall in love with him, especially post-Avengers 1, is a fine line. If the fic apologizes too much for Loki’s wrongdoing without enough repentance/reformation, I don’t buy that she would legit be able to fall for him, but, go too far on the redemption and Loki gets OOC.

This story hits all those beats pretty perfectly and combines them with the whole Darcy/Jane/Thor (and now Loki) found family thing, Thor/Loki brother angst, Jane/Darcy BFFs, and a really compelling murder mystery to boot. There is also an interesting subplot with Loki being what basically amounts to a magical mechanic that I found really interesting amidst the snark, romance, and mystery solving. I’m sad this writer only has the one story up because it is so good!

Bygone by @inkbert

This story is Shieldshock (Steve/Darcy), not WinterShock, so even though I do try to only choose one fic per author (mostly), I’m totally fine having two by @inkbert on this list. Besides, this fic is amazing, and it’s not like there are anyone’s rules to follow on these fic rec lists but my own, lol! This is hands down my favorite ShieldShock story ever.

Jane’s experiment goes awry and sends Darcy into the past—specifically after Bucky left for basic but before he shipped out and Steve got tapped for Project Rebirth. Darcy ends up living with Rebecca and Mrs. Barnes, and she falls head over heels in love with tiny Steve, so much so that they get married despite not knowing what the future holds for her. Then, the night before Steve is going to report to basic, Darcy blips out again, and when she blips back in, Steve is dead. The rest of the story has Darcy blipping her way through time, making friends with Howard, Peggy, and the Howling Commandos. Ultimately, though, it’s her brother/sister relationship with Tony that is the most poignant, especially by the time they catch up to the present again. And Darcy is a complete BAMF the whole time—going on missions, learning to fly anything with wings, doing anything and everything to keep her found family together. This story also gave me a plan for what I would do if I were ever shot back into a timeline like this where I couldn’t sew or cook or make a living—become a typist… genius, Darce!

Their Hearts Said by @anogete

Another Anogete story because I just can’t resist. All her stories are really good, be they WinterShock, ShieldShock, or even her really good Loki/OC fic. I would definitely suggest giving all of them a try.

This ShieldShock story is my favorite post-Infinity War tale. It picks up a few weeks after the snap, with everyone grieving and trying to figure out what to do next. Steve is barely holding it together while the remaining Avengers try to figure out what they can do. After Jane and her family disappear, Darcy heads to Avengers Tower, hoping against hope that maybe Thor knows what’s going on. Darcy and Steve start sleeping together as more of an escape from the awfulness around them than anything else, but as the team works on a plan to save the day and bring everyone back, they develop real feelings for each other. There is also time travel and I really loved the minimalist way she wrote how the day was saved in this. It balanced well with the character stuff. This story is much preferable to End Game—too bad cannon didn’t go like this!

Good Madness by Em_Jaye

Normally, I prefer my Darcy embedded within the MCU cannon. I adore that every girl keeping up with superheroes thing. But, I do enjoy a good AU on occasion, and this is one of my faves. It’s ShieldShock and kid!fic. Darcy runs a bakery that was left to her by her mother (real You’ve Got Mail tones there, but no creepy identity porn), and Steve comes in for treats on occasion. One day, he brings his daughter, and the rest is history. I love the Steve/Darcy romance in this one, and Steve’s daughter is a sweet character. I love the Full House thing Steve has going on co-raising his daughter with Bucky and Sam. And there is a nice Bucky/Natasha subplot and some really good Tony, which I would say more about except that I don’t want to spoil the surprise. My favorite story in the series is the five rules one at the end, so definitely keep going long enough for that. And if you like Em_Jaye’s writing, you should check out The Long Way Around—a Shieldshock, time travel, Endgame fix-it WIP that is excellent, as well.

One Year by @steeleholtingon

This story is WinterShieldShock. OT3s aren’t my favorite trope, but somehow with Bucky/Darcy/Steve, it works. Maybe it’s something about the boys’ history and Darcy dragging them into the future. Kind of what she does for each of them individually in WinterShock and ShieldShock, but with even more oomph. I haven’t read the whole tag, but One Year is my favorite.

Bucky’s Winter Soldier recovery has pushed both Steve and Bucky to the edge. Steve ends up leaving (at Bucky’s demand, but also because the team is afraid he’s going to do some kind of suicide via superhero duty if he doesn’t get his head on straight). The wrinkle—the night before he left, Darcy and Steve had a comforting one-night stand that resulted in two pinks lines on the test. The resulting story takes place one month at a time. Steve tries to piece himself back together and put his feelings for Bucky in the past whilst falling for Darcy over text messages. Bucky, on the other hand, realizes how he fucked it all up and vows to be there for Darcy and Steve’s baby while Steve is gone. Darcy navigates the waters of an unplanned (but wanted) pregnancy while balancing her feelings for both of them. And all the rest of the Avengers, science crew, and other Avengers-adjacent peeps support all three of them through it all. Angst, recovery, and a happy ending. So good!

So, after all that, what are you guys waiting for? Get to reading all this Darcy goodness! :-)

And now I need to figure out what fic rec list to work on next. I have a Stranger Things one (Harringrove and Mileven) almost ready to go, and then I need to decide what to do with the ships and characters that I don’t have a full top ten for. Group them together, perhaps? Bughead and LoVe might be a good combination, lol. And WinterHawk and WinterIron.

#darcy lewis #darcy x steve #darcy x loki #darcy x bucky #wintershock #shieldshock #tasertricks #fanfic #fanfic rec #quarantine reads #highly recommend #thanks for writing these fics #bucky barnes #steve rogers

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lokislynx · 3 years

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I have such mixed feelings about a show I haven't seen. 😒 Loki of course. I have only seen short scenes, pics, gifs and read about it but...

I'd love to get excited about it. It's been such a long time since I was excited about anything. And sure I'm waiting and hoping they will release it on blueray someday so I don't have to become a pirate.

I am bothered by the lack of magic. I also think it fairly idiotic that Loki can be pushed around by lesser beings than him. It took the Avengers to stop him, he got Hulk smashed but just picked himself up and would have dusted himself off and continued his grandplan (if he didn't already succeed doing all he planned) had the Avengers not been there. So he settled for a drink...

Loki is a complex character. I dislike what MCU has done to him. Myth Loki is the best. MCU is trying to simplify him. Like if he was mindcontrolled and tortured in Avengers, why not just say so from the begining? It was important for the story.

But at the same time I also love the MCU Loki. 😊

To see the Loki after Avengers would be glorious and is. I've read and seen he is quite forward with his emotions. I wouldn't hold it against him if he won't be like that all the time. Getting tortured, mindcontrolled, captured, escapeing only to fall into TVA's hands must be tough. I would expect he doesn't have much energy left to keep up a fully functioning facade like in Thor 1 or the Avengers. He is showing some shattering in Avengers already (at least in deleted scenes). I expect this openness to be his plan. He is using what he can. Showing and (maybe) telling the truth is also valid way to manipulate people.

I have had a full blown narcistic psycopath in my life and my family, another who used similar methods and when I met a third in my workplace I can say to my surprise I could not take that without turning absolutely honest. I had no energy left for the illusion that I am calm and fuctioning. I became even over expressive. The scene where Loki stupidly tries to run away as they enter TVA... that reaction is stupid, there is no reason behind it, it seems something a person like Loki would never do but... that's what happens. All you can think is "no, not again, I can take no more, I have to get off this planet". He did this when he saw Hulk in Ragnarök except then he bumped into the grandmaster and got a hold of himself.

He is in shock in Avengers. He is fully functioning, thinking "this doesn't affect me at all, I'm so tough/smart/well bred prince that I am above all the torture and control". Then he finds himself in the hands of new people who try to manipulate and hurt him. What can he do? There is no Thor to ground him, to bring hope. (Thor does bring him hope even if Thor also causes pain because Thor is the one who hurts him unintentionally while the rest of his family have a plan behind the pain.) He is absolutely alone.

Now I would like to see the strong Loki rise at some point of the series. I hope they'll stop trowing him around. Loki is not built to be easily over powered. He is also trained too well for it. And give us magic. Knives are cool and can solve many problems but magic is... magic.

#loki

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lokihzra · 3 years

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My Heart’s On Fire For Your Love

Chapter 3

Thor falls to his knees in front of his brother, his heartbeat picking up with every sharp inhale Loki takes. “Loki hey look at me” Thor demands through the lump in his throat as he gently lifts Loki’s face to look at him “you’re okay, we’re in New York” he says as soft as he can, keeping his touch gentle and pleading, hoping Loki can see the worry and pain in his eyes.

“no I-I” Loki stops and gulps to try and ease the lump in his throat attempting to suffocate him “I don’t know what’s happening” he mumbles and tries to look back down at the floor.

Thor pulls his head back up and Loki couldn’t tell if he wanted to pull away or lean into Thor’s touch “breathe Loki, keep your eyes on me”

“I can’t-“ he breaks off into sharp gasps and leans forward until his head hits Thor’s shoulder “make it stop” the gasps burned his lungs but his head hurt more.

worthless, useless, nothing, a monster. Who can love a monster?

Especially a fallen jotun runt.

“Loki please breathe” Thor begs, tears welling up in his own eyes. Helpless, the weight in his heart screams at him to do something but he can’t. Thor isn’t skilled with a Seidr so no matter how bad he wanted to, he couldn’t help his brother.

“Please make it stop” Loki sobs and his stomach drops as he remembers the darkness, the endless silence “Thor please” he begs, pressing his face farther into thor’s shoulder, his hands gripping Thors sweater so hard that Loki swears he feels one of his nails crack.

Thor starts softly shushing him and Loki feels his hand rubbing his back gently, his other hand playing with his hair and he only notices that it calms him down near ten minutes later when his lungs stopped burning and that dull throbbing started pounding at the back of his eyes.

“what do you need?” Thor asks quietly, not moving to pull away.

Loki gulps, trying to ignore the embarrassment as he pulls back “I don’t know why that-“

“you want to rest? you look like you need it” Thor smiles softly making Loki’s nose sting.

“okay”

“Sir, Mr. Rhodes was already on his way here”

Tony sighs but it just gets caught in his throat “wher-where is he?” he says quickly.

“he’s just parked”

“he has a damn suit-oh god” Tony falls back on his ass and brings his knees up to his chin.

“he’s in the elevator”

Tony nods to himself as he grips the table and pulls himself up to his feet. He stumbles and hits his hip against the table so hard he knows there will be a bruise but he doesn’t care because he hears the door slide open.

He turns around to see Rhodey rushing over to him and Tony stumbles over to him, Rhodey catching him before he could trip over his own foot. “Hey man what happened?” Rhodey asks softly as he lowers them to the ground.

“Loki-I-” Tony buries his face in Rhodeys shoulder, his hands holding onto Rhodeys jacket like his life depended on it “me and Loki-“

“You and Loki what? fought?” he asks quietly as he rubs Tony’s back, drawing patterns and words into it.

“no-we-opposite”

“you guys hooked up?” Rhodey nearly yells.

“no-he’s my-“

“okay Tony calm down just breathe, copy my breathing” Rhodey demands and he doesn’t breathe louder on purpose, It helped Tony a lot more when he had to strain to focus, when he blocked everything out to focus on one thing.

And it worked. The pounding in his head got quieter as he strained to listen to Rhodeys even breaths and mimic them. Tony loved Rhodey with all his damn heart, if it wasn’t for Rhodey, Tony probably would have died by 22 and Tony never ever expresses how much Rhodey means to him and he hates it because he got it from Howard.

“you okay now?” Rhodey breaks him from his thoughts, the hand on his back slowing to a halt.

“I love you, you know that?”

“shut up”

“No i really do Rhodes, I would die for you man”

“you’ll die for anyone Tony”

“not true”

“well if you love me so much tell me what happened”

“um” Tony pauses to try and think of how the hell he tells his best friend that soulmates are real and he knows because his soulmate is upstairs right now and it just so happens to be the man who attacked the very city they’re in at the moment “maybe another time buddy”

Tony starts to get up but Rhodey pulls him back down to the floor “I’m your best friend douche bag, tell me”

“do you believe in soulmates?”

“sometimes” Rhodey says with a shrug but continues when Tony raises a brow “I thought you and Pepper were soulmates”

“yeah well she’s not and my soulmate is a guy”

Rhodeys face falls but he quickly breaks off into a quiet laugh “you’re telling me soulmates are real?”

“the city was attacked by aliens five days ago and this, you don’t believe?”

“okay fine keep talking” Rhodey demands as he focuses his attention on Tony.

“nevermind I shouldn’t-“

“Tony tony I’m listening so tell me please” Rhodey nearly begs.

Tony rambles to hopefully avoid the subject but Rhodey knows him. Rhodey knows that this is what he does.“apparently soulmates are rare. Like extinct rare and I don’t really know the purpose but-“

Rhodey interrupts him “Tony”

Tony stops with a huff and as he opened his mouth to say the words, he suddenly couldn’t. “Tony?” he sighs before lifting his sleeve and revealing the L on his wrist, the black marking standing out against his tan skin like an emo at Disney land.

Tony watches as Rhodey frowns at it before his face drops “am I being punk’d?”

“fuck” Tony says harshly as he pulls his sleeve back down “see?” he quickly gets up and walks over to his desk “this is why I don’t want to tell anybody”

“do you love him?” Rhodey asks and Tony stops abruptly.

“no” he says without missing a beat and he turns around to face Rhodey in case the latter doesn’t believe him.

“well then you’ll be okay” Rhodey says reassuringly.

It doesn’t work thought because Rhodey can’t hide his concern from Tony, not after 12 years of being bestfriends. “Thor said something about a bond becoming complete-the fuck does that mean Rhodey?” Tony asks quickly, his heart beating faster than his tongue moves.

“Call Loki down here”

“what? no-“

“I can’t answer your questions only he can”

“Sir it seems that Mr. Odinson is not functional enough to come down here”

He groans before mumbling “and why not?” secretly hoping that JARVIS never heard.

“he’s suffering from a migraine ” JARVIS informs him and Tony sighs in relief before something catches his attention.

“Aliens can get headaches?”

“technically sir he is Asgardian, A god, not an alien, they have the same physiology but they’re only denser so yes Asgardians can get headaches”

“diseases?”

“no sir, their density makes it near impossible for diseases to survive off of their body, it would take nearly a million years for any disease to affect them”

“hm” Tony shrugs “won’t have to use a condom.

“Tony!” Rhodey scolds as he watches Tony walk to the door.

“i’m kidding sourpatch”

May 9th, 2012

“we ordered supper, it’s on the counter” Natasha nods towards the several takeout plates on the counter.

“didn’t know what you guys wanted so I just ordered almost everything” Tony says through a mouthful of food.

Loki frowns down at the meat and vegetables mixed together, with rice or noodles, a bowl of soup and small balls covered in a red sauce. “what is this?”

“Chinese food” Clint says through his mouthful of food

“Why are you here and why are you all dirty?”

“While you guys were destroying the training room we were out cleaning your mess” Steve states

Loki frowns and it disappears before anyone could even notice it. His eyebrows are furrowed and his fists clenched together as he walks over to the giant windows. Thor and Tony silently watching as Loki scans the wreck of the city below him.

Suddenly Tony’s throat closes up, his eyes filling with tears and the weight in his heart makes him literally stop breathing for a moment. He freezes before harshly putting his plate down and watching as Loki is staring down at the city.

Loki's fists are clenched so tight that his arms tremble along with his tense jaw, shaking, trying to form words as he scans the debris littering the streets and buildings. Broken windows and signs, craters from explosions and some buildings had holes in them that was at least 4 stories big.

He blinks quickly to make the tears go away before he holds his palms out, parallel to the window in front of him and his guilt doesn’t fade as the warmth travels through his veins. The warm green light of his magic absorbing the mess; garbage, debris, glass and metal all disappearing from the streets and buildings. He couldn’t fix the buildings or signs, not until he got more of his strength back but this was enough for now.

He couldn't fix broken families and give children their parents back.

He’ll do better.

He’ll make up for it, somehow.

“how many people?” he asks quietly, staying in his spot “how many people did I kill?”

“one hundred and ninety three” Steve states and Loki couldn’t hold in his shaky exhale.

He was about to say something but Clints cold tone made his brain short circuit “cleaning up the mess won’t do anything”

Lokis guilt completely fades morphing into anger as he scans the avengers in the living room. “I accept you all for who you are even when you can’t find even a shred of humanity to accept me. Natasha’s ledger is worse than mine, Thor waged war on Jötunheim out of anger, he wasn’t mind controlled, tortured and forced like I was ” Loki snarls but he continues before Thor can ask questions “Clint you had a secret family, Bruce killed his abusive alcoholic father” Loki stops quickly, his gaze softening as he looks at the tense scientist “I’m not judging you for that I would have done the same thing. Tony is an alcoholic who made weapons and Steve claims to be a self-sacrificing hero yet he has 90 years to prove that”

The room is silent as every word sinks into their bones. Every word was true and none of them could deny that not even to themselves, Tony never ever denied who he was but that doesn’t stop the anger from boiling his blood and organs.

“I’m not the only one with mistakes or a past, I’m not the only one who lies about who I am and I know that, so degrade me all you want but don’t throw it in my face” Loki deadpans “because I promise you Barton, I will win at that game every time” he says lowly.

“shut the fuck up”

“pardon?” Loki glares and Tony feels another wave of that hot red rage setting in his bones.

“shut the fuck up, you’re pissing me off”

Loki scoffs, folding his arms and barking out a laugh “I’m pissing you-“ he stops abruptly, his face dropping as he suddenly marches into the elevator, leaving everyone shocked.

Except for Tony, as fast as the anger came it transformed into fear as soon as-

As soon as Loki wasn't angry anymore.

#frostiron #frostiron fic #frostiron fanfic #tony stark #loki x tony #Iron Man #ironfrost #ironfrost fic #loki #Loki Laufeyson #loki odinson #loki (marvel)#Loki Friggason #loki fanfic #loki mcu #MHOFFYL #soulmates #soulmate au #soulmates au

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magicmastered · 4 years

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@darealbellabelleoftheball

About this post you tagged me in, which I’m screenshotting because Tumblr never lets me link posts:

(Should I have scribbled out the url? I don’t want anyone getting harassed because of me, regardless of whether I agree with them....)

Anyway, thanks for thinking of me.

I try not to reblog people’s original posts to start arguments with them, so I’ll respond here.

Reinvent Thor as being a more relatable and fun character

Relatable to who? At some point I might make a post asking people why they found Ragnarok Thor more or less relatable than pre-Ragnarok Thor. I’m curious as to what the response would be.

Personally I found Ragnarok Thor to be insincere, arrogant, and manipulative, though his “save Asgard” thing was obviously good. I agree with the goal, but his means...not so much.

ALSO. “Reinventing” a character is the exact opposite of what should be done at the end of a trilogy. At that point, you wrap up the plot threads and character arcs. You do NOT throw them all out and start with something that’s regressed even beyond where the character was at the beginning. It’s just not how trilogies work.

If you want to reinvent the character for LOLs, call it what it is—a parody. Parody is a perfectly legit genre. It just makes it clear that it’s not to be taken as part of the original canon.

With a far more extensive power set

Thor was already really powerful. Yeah, the Thor-nado is pretty cool, but he was doing fine without it...?

As well as making him the star of his own GD movie for once without worrying about some other character overshadowing him

You know how you make a character more interesting? It’s not by just flattening all the competition. It’s by giving them more internal conflict. That’s one of the reasons Loki’s so popular. He’d had internal conflict to deal with from the get-go.

They could’ve had Thor finally realize that Odin did screw up, and it wasn’t just a one-time thing, and he wasn’t actually a great parent (or person in general). Through that, he could realize that maybe the things Odin always told him were wrong. Maybe, for instance, Loki wasn’t 100% evil and Thor’s inferior. Maybe that Thor had himself made some mistakes at least as bad, and come to terms with that. He could’ve broken out of his toxic family dynamic.

That would’ve been a lot more compelling than erasing everything that made Thor, Thor.

And established that his arcs from the first two movies were realized on the level of him assuming control of his powers on Odin’s level—assuming ultimate worthiness

....

Why is aspiring to be like Odin in any way a good conclusion to Thor’s character arcs? And “worthiness” is entirely based on Odin’s professed values.

What would’ve been better is if Thor had finally broken free of Odin’s arbitrary worthiness paradigm. He’d been letting Odin define his worth for the previous movies. He realized that Odin was flawed for a bit in TDW but was back to submitting himself to Odin’s judgement at the end of the movie. It’s time for him to finish that journey. Yet in this movie it’s Odin (or rather Odin’s memory) that Thor turns to for strength.

And Thor honestly does not seem to change at all throughout the movie, character-wise. He starts off snarky and arrogant. He finishes snarky and arrogant with a throne and a missing eye (and no planet).

Introduce Valkyrie

Love the character, don’t love how they used her. Seriously, “and suddenly you’re overcome by the urge to do the right thing?” Five minutes after she did just that? Please.

Give Heimdall more than two minutes of screen time

Admittedly I like Heimdall better in this movie, so I’ll leave this alone.

Destroy Asgard

Why is this a good thing?

No, really, why is destroying Asgard better than, say, exploring its culture and history—and the people the movie repeatedly refers to—in a more nuanced light?

Reintroduce Hulk with the ability to speak and show emotion beyond smashing things

If I remember correctly, Hulk is a manifestation of Bruce’s anger and fear from his abusive childhood. (I don’t know if I’m phrasing this correctly at all. Someone who’s more into Bruce and Hulk could probably help. :/)

Ragnarok did not exactly explore that in any way.

And Hulk HAD emotions besides “smash”. Look at his reaction when Tony was falling out of the portal in Avengers. Hulk has real intelligence to him.

F colonialist lives!

This really isn’t my area of expertise at all...but I’m pretty sure the thing they were saying was bad was the imperialism, not colonialism. They’re not the same thing. And even that was confused by the whole venerating-Odin thing. I believe others have gone into this in more detail.

Korg is skinny!

I don’t even know what this is supposed to mean...?!

Contain good and funny jokes

This is entirely subjective. For instance, several people I know find butt jokes funny. I find them kind of immature and prefer dry humor. Neither of us is wrong in our preferences. It’s just not something you can argue.

Conversely, this movie also has Loki joke about his own suicide attempt. So.

Was directed by the MCU’s first director of color

I didn’t even know Waititi was a man of color when I first started disliking Ragnarok.

Controversial opinion here, but a movie that contradicts previous canon and has a plot as airtight as a colander is still a crappy franchise movie no matter who wrote it.

Fix Loki’s sad broody boy problem

Loki does not have a “sad broody boy” problem. He’s genuinely mentally ill, in no small part due to spending over a thousand years as the scapegoat in a narcissistic family. It’s also due to spending who-knows-how-long falling in space (see how that affected Tony) then another who-knows-how-long getting tortured by a purple space grape. That’s a lot more than going through an emo phase or something.

And this movie does not “fix” Loki’s mental illness. It waves it away like something that was never that bad to begin with, which is very much not the case.

It also erased Loki’s fierce intelligence from the previous movies, and his anger, and his strategy. It turned Loki from courageous to cowardly (except when the plot said so). It ignored Loki’s old reserve and trust issues.

Examples: You can’t tell me he couldn’t have thought up a better plan than “get help”. He could’ve disguised both him and Thor as more Sakaarian guards with his illusions. I just came up with that in five seconds. No way would that not occur to him at least as quickly.

Loki had the nerve to sass Laufey and the Other and Odin even when any one of them could’ve hurt him in previous movies. In Ragnarok he’s terrified of the Hulk to the point of trying to run.

In previous movies, Loki didn’t trust anyone enough to talk about any of the things that’d happened (aggravated since no one had even asked). In Ragnarok, as mentioned above, he joked about his own suicide—to a bunch of strangers.

Make fun of Thor: The Dark World

Again, why is this a good thing?

Ragnarok is one of the best Marvel movies for the “prisoners with jobs” joke alone

Subjective, again.

#marvel #anti ragnarok #mcu loki #mcu thor #anti new thor #mcu odin #tw: suicide attempt #tw: suicide mention #gagnarok #loki meta #thor meta #the hulk #bruce banner

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9worldstales · 3 years

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MCU “Thor: Ragnarok” - The elevator scene

So I’ve heard that Tom Hiddleston’s interview “Tom Hiddleston Looks Back at 10 Years of Loki | Entertainment Weekly” has sparked some discussion…

…because, when talking of the elevator scene Tom said Thor had been honest in it, sparking the joy of who enjoyed that scene which is one of the few emotional moments of the movie between the two in which Thor says something ‘nice’ to Loki (I think that scene is actually one of the most well known and popular about the movie) and the disagreement of who remembered that Thor used that moment to place an obedience disk on Loki’s back, an obedience disk that basically tortures who wear it once it’s activated… and Thor later activated it when Loki attempted to betray him, and left it activated, abandoning him in that hangar where the grandmaster, which he knows has no qualms to melt people who disappoint him, could find Loki. The fact that Korg finds Loki first and free him from that torture is mere luck on Loki and on Thor’s part as Loki will then bring Asgard a ship large enough to save all the Asgardians.

Long story short, a part of the fandom felt that Thor said such words to cause Loki to lower his guard so that he could place the obedience disk.

So I wanted to share my two cents about it.

But first let’s look at the full script for it.

Thor: Hey, so listen, we should talk. Loki: I disagree. Open communication was never our family's forte. Thor: You have no idea. I've had quite the revelation since we spoke last. [The door opens, revealing a bunch of guards. Thor and Loki heft up two Sakaarian guns.] Thor: Hello! Loki: Hi! [Thor and Loki BLAST all the guards, moving to another door.] Loki: Odin brought us together, it's almost poetic that his death should split us apart. We might as well be strangers now. "Two sons of the crown" set adrift. [A guard tries to ambush Loki through the door. Thor TAKES OUT the guard.] Thor: Thought you didn't want to talk about it? Loki: Here's the thing.

[ELEVATOR. Thor and Loki are going up.] Loki: I'm probably better off staying here on Sakaar. Thor: That's exactly what I was thinking. Loki: ...Did you just agree with me? Thor: This place is perfect for you. It's savage, chaotic, lawless. Brother, you're going to do GREAT here. Loki: Do you truly think so little of me? [Thor pauses, considers his brother. Then:] Thor: Loki, I thought the world of you. I thought we were gonna fight side by side forever. But, at the end of the day, you're you, I'm me... I don't know, maybe there's still good in you, but let's be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago. [Loki is wounded by Thor's willingness to discard him. Masks his feelings with:] Loki: It's probably for the best that we never see one another again. [Beat. Thor pats Loki affectionately on the shoulder. Hold on Loki. Did Thor just get through to him?] Thor: That's what you always wanted.

Yeah, I included the bit prior to it because it kind of introduced the scene. And as the obedience disk scene is also part of the discussion, let’s look at it as well.

Loki: I know I've betrayed you many times before, but this time it's truly nothing personal. The reward for your capture will set me up nicely. He triggers the alarm. Thor: Never one for sentiment, were you? Loki: Easier to let it burn. [But then Loki sees Thor holding up a fob device. Loki realizes that Thor affixed an Obedience Disk on him in that heart-to-heart moment.] Thor: I agree. [BZZZT! Thor ZAPS Loki and HOLDS DOWN the button. Loki HITS the ground, WRITHING in pain. Thor approaches. Pause.] Thor: Oh brother, you're becoming predictable. I trust you, you betray me. Round and round in circles we go. [Thor continues to "think about it" for a beat while Loki convulses in agony on the floor. Finally, Thor kneels down:] Thor: See, Loki, life is about, it's about growth. It's about change. But you seem to just wanna stay the same. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'll always be the God of Mischief, but you could be more. I'll just put this over here for you. [Thor places the fob on top of the security panel, so close but so far from Loki's paralyzed reach.] Thor: Anyway, I got places to be so good luck.

Okay, now with these scenes in mind, let’s go and see how Tom comments the elevator scene.

The elevator scene, in “Ragnarok.” The dialogue was… was scattered across these different… places as they were trying to escape and find their way through. Taika said: “Guys, do you know the rest of the scene?” and we both said: “Yeah.” He said: “Maybe we should just do... do one where we just do all of the dialogue here in the elevator and you haven't really had a chance to catch up and maybe you should just talk to each other,” and Thor… is quite honest with him. And I think it really affects Loki, he thinks ‘oh actually maybe… maybe I got this wrong, maybe I did have a place in that family. Maybe… maybe this guy is my brother,’ but it was a really enjoyable scene because it was just a very quiet moment with Chris in a very calm space in a big colourful spectacular film. [“Tom Hiddleston Looks Back at 10 Years of Loki | Entertainment Weekly”]

So… is Thor being sincere? Or just being manipulative?

When one look at Thor’s sentence there’s a thing that hit me:

Thor: Loki, I thought the world of you. I thought we were gonna fight side by side forever. But, at the end of the day, you're you, I'm me... I don't know, maybe there's still good in you, but let's be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago.

At Loki’s question ‘Do you truly think so little of me?’ Thor doesn’t say ‘No, I think the world of you.’ He says he THOUGHT the world of him. As in previously he thought the world of him and we can speculate this previously refers to before he stopped considering him a ‘brother’ something that happened likely in “The Avengers” according to “Thor: The Dark World”, probably when Thor told him they could stop the Chitauri together and Loki stabbed him.

Thor: I don't. Mother did. You should know that when we fought each other in the past, I did so with a glimmer of hope that my brother was still in there somewhere. That hope no longer exists to protect you. You betray me and I will kill you.

And I can believe Thor used to love Loki before all that, so he’s sincere in saying that, back then, he thought the world of him.

Now, I know there’s people who think Thor didn’t properly appreciate Loki in “Thor”, especially when he used the pretty unlucky sentence ‘Know your place, Brother’ but also when, in a cut scene, he waved away Loki’s contribute to the victory saying ‘Some do battle, others just do tricks’ but this is exactly the point.

Thor’s ‘sin’ in that moment is his vanity, his arc in the movie centred on him learning humility.

Thor loved Loki, same as Kevin Lomax, in “The Devil’s Advocate” loved Mary Ann. There’s quite a good quote in that movie.

John Milton: I rest my case. Vanity is definitely my favorite sin. Self-love, the all-natural opiate. It's not like you didn't care for Mary Ann, Kevin. You were just a little more involved with someone else: yourself.

Thor also in the first half of the movie was more involved in himself than he was in his brother. Or his friends. Let’s remember Fandral got hurt and it was Loki and Volstagg which helped him, while the Thor is described by the script as busy fighting the Frost Giants, his bloodlust rising, with Loki and Sif both telling Thor they’ve to leave instead.

Loki: Thor, we must go! [Thor, still without his hammer, fights his Jotun foes mercilessly, a man consumed by blood lust. Loki sees the look on his brother's face -- the savage thrill of the heat of battle.] Thor: Then go! Sif: There are too many of them! Thor: I can stop them! [The others hesitate. Jotuns break up through the ice all around them.] Sif: Thor! [But Thor ignores his comrades, continues fighting.]

When they’ll be back to Asgard it’ll be Odin who’ll say Fandral has to be taken to the healing room, not Thor, something that the movie will technically address when it’ll show that Thor, once back to Asgard after he learnt humility on Midgard, will be the one to tell his friends to bring Heimdall to the healing room.

in “Thor”, Thor had to be a bad brother due to his vanity… but this doesn’t mean he was an unloving one, just one who might have thought the world about Loki… but thought the whole universe about himself and thought more about himself than he ever did at Loki… because he was vain.

Sadly although most of the second half of the movie is set up to prove Thor is the opposite of how he was before, they never quite manage to prove he would have an opposite dynamic with Loki. He tries to save him twice, and clearly didn’t want him to let go, he tells his brother not to let go, he’s the one who screams when Loki does anyway, while Odin merely says a quiet no which wasn’t even in the original old script, but, unless we consider the fact he accepted Loki to be the king to exist to be the opposite of ‘Know your place, Brother’, this is maybe the only aspect in which the movie doesn’t prove Thor now has a reverse mentality (I’ve listed all the scenes the movie had or was meant to have that proved how Thor made a 180° turn in another meta if someone is interested).

But whatever, Thor’s ‘Loki, I thought the world of you’ was clearly meant to be the truth, Thor used to think so of Loki, the movie is just skipping on the part he wasn’t so good at showing it because in “Thor” Thor was a vain boy.

And it’s likely also the truth how Thor said ‘I thought we were gonna fight side by side forever.’

In “The Avengers” Thor not only insisted for Loki to come back home but also for them to fight together against the Chitauri.

Thor: Look at this! Look around you! You think this madness will end with your rule? Loki: (tries to look away) It's too late. It's too late to stop it. Thor: No. We can. Together.

And the fact they used to fight together is implied in the already mentioned cut scene of “Thor” as well as again, in “The Avengers”.

Thor: We were raised together, we played together, we fought together. Do you remember none of that?

So yes, Thor for a while thought they were gonna fight side by side forever, then things in “The Avengers” went downhill and by the time “Thor: The Dark World” comes around he refuses to acknowledge Loki as his brother… even though he still needs him.

There’s no lies in Thor’s words, he said something he thought before Loki’s fall, that he and Loki would always fight together, on the same side and, all considered, he had no reason to think otherwise. He had no idea things would take a turn for worse so of course he would think Loki would continue to fight at his side. The old script and the novel implied the original plan prior to the coronation was for Thor to rule and for Loki to be at his side, offering him counsel.

Odin: Do you think he's ready? Frigga: He thinks he is. He has his father's confidence. Odin: He'll need his father's wisdom. Frigga: And his humility? [Odin reacts.] Frigga: (cont’d) Thor won't be alone. Loki will be at his side to give him counsel. Have faith in your sons. Odin: Yes, but Thor's still a boy. He could be a great King...

So yes, in this too Thor is sincere. He assumed Loki would stay at his side. He had no reason to think otherwise.

The last bit though, ‘But, at the end of the day, you're you, I'm me... I don't know, maybe there's still good in you, but let's be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago’ is just Thor basically letting go of Loki. Loki is not him, maybe there’s good in Loki, maybe he’s just evil but anyway he isn’t going to be a hero like Thor. As he said before, for Thor, place like Saakar, savage, chaotic, lawless, is perfect for someone like Loki.

Is he being manipulative here? He’s rejecting Loki knowing Loki actually needs Thor to tell him he needs him?

Well this is what Hemsworth said Thor was thinking about Loki:

One of the more fascinating parts of the franchise has been the relationship between Thor and Loki… How do you continue that relationship without repeating what you’ve already done before? Hemsworth: Without giving too much away, I didn't want to repeat that relationship either. And Tom felt the same. All of us were like, ‘What can we do again here?’ There’s a bit of reversal as far as... In the first films, a lot of the time you’re seeing Thor going, 'Come back Loki, and da-da-da-da.' [But now] there’s a feeling from Thor that’s just like, 'You know what, kid? Do what you want. You’re a screw up. So whatever. Do your thing.' [Chris Hemsworth ‘Thor Ragnarok’, Embracing the Comedy, the Thor-Loki Relationship and More]

Loki is a ‘screw up’. He’s no more someone he thought the world of. He doesn’t think anymore they would keep on fighting together. He doesn’t care.

And this is what Waititi said.

Hewitt: For Loki, he might actually be the most emotionally independent of the movie, and I love that the big emotional epiphany comes when one brother is essentially electrocuting the other? Ah- Waititi: *chuckles* Hewitt: *chuckling* Yeah. But there’s a speech to Loki that Thor gives about change and about how you should change, that’s the first time I think Loki’s ever really listened. Waititi: Mm-hmm. Hewitt: From what we’ve seen, you know, there are moments in this movie where, you know, the betrayal takes place as you might expect, and then you begin to move it on beyond that and the character actually begins to change. Ah, can you talk about... progressing Loki, I guess, as a character? Waititi: Yeah. Yeah, well I feel like we were- You know, we didn’t want to change him too much because he was so popular and the fans love that version of him. We wanted to keep- we needed to retain who he is, because when you start changing all of the characters and just doing it for the sake of change, you know, people can’t handle that and definitely fans can’t handle that. So you know he was one of the few characters that we, you know, that we changed and so I made sure that- *pause* -that the main changes that were gonna happen there were to do with the brothers, and to do with their relationship, because I think people wanted to see that arc end on a satisfying way and culmination of all these films and all of the events being that Thor and Loki finally found some sort of way of co-existing without Thor always saying, “Loki, stop this madness! Come hooome! Oh, you can do better!” Instead of pleading with him, just, you know, I feel that’s the most mature version of these guys, you know, is to say to him, “Man, it’s cool. You keep doing what you’re doing, I’m- You know, I don’t need to change you. I’ve all the other stuff to concentrate on, that change thing is up to you, I’m not gonna- I’m sick of, like, pleading with you to, you know, to change your ways.” And I feel like giving that decision to Loki and letting him make that decision for himself was actually the most satisfying version of those have been. [“Empire Podcast Spoiler Special Thor Ragnarok with Taika Waititi”]

To be honest most of the discussion more than about the elevator scene is about the electrocution scene and the first part is Hewitt’s interpretation but Waititi does not disagree. Anyway the root of the discussion is that, according to Waititi, Thor isn’t trying to get Loki to change his mind, Thor is just done with Loki, which fits not just with the electrocution scene but also with the elevator scene. It’s not a very loving message.

If I were to question Hiddleston’s interpretation, I wouldn’t disagree on Thor being honest, I would just find weird that Loki had reacted to such words thinking ‘oh actually maybe… maybe I got this wrong, maybe I did have a place in that family. Maybe… maybe this guy is my brother,’ for two good reasons. One is that Thor spoke not in present simple but in past simple, so maybe that guy WAS his brother, now he doesn’t care about him anymore. As he said in “Thor: The Dark World” Thor has again renounced him. The second is… the electrocution scene, which starts with Loki betraying Thor.

Yeah, I know there are fans who interpret it as Loki not wanting Thor to die fighting Hela which I TRULY love because sometimes fans have better interpretations than the authors on why the character do what they do, but, skipping that the idea of handing him to the Grandmaster who could very well melt him wasn’t that bright (but whatever, Loki could still think he’ll manage to persuade the Grandmaster to let him alive and use him to replace the Hulk), this clearly wasn’t Waititi’s intent.

Waititi didn’t correct Hewitt when he talks about the scene and how that’s the first time Loki’s ever really listened. In Waititi’s intent the elevator’s scene is just an addition, something in which Thor and Loki talk to each other because they hadn’t had the chance to catch up before the electrocution scene that would remark how Loki is again betraying Thor but how Thor this time has grown and can predict Loki’s betrayal and be ready to strike back and even give him the speech that will cause Loki’s change of heart. Long story short, the elevator scene was an afterthought, what was meant to be included was the electrocution scene because on that scene was supposed to be rooted the idea Loki would change.

And of course this is a HUGE problem, because if you, up until a moment before, were willing to sell your brother to someone like the Grandmaster for money, the fact that he electrocute you and leave you writhing in pain on the floor, KNOWING if the Grandmaster finds you empty handed he will melt you… well, this normally wouldn’t inspire you to have brotherly feelings, speech about having the potential for being more or not.

Long story short, the idea that Loki would go to save Thor and the Asgardians DESPITE that, merely due to Thor’s pretty speech, doesn’t really feel that logic at all, never mentioning that something that gives you enough pain to cause you to crumble on the floor and be unable to move might not help you to be an attentive listener.

I’m not even sure why there’s this idea that Thor was always ‘come back, brother’ since in “Thor: The Dark World” Thor definitely wasn’t asking him to come back, he was actually giving up on him in an even more drastic way than he did in “Thor: Ragnarok”…

Loki: You must be truly desperate to come to me for help. What makes you think you can trust me? Thor: I don't. Mother did. You should know that when we fought each other in the past, I did so with a glimmer of hope that my brother was still in there somewhere. That hope no longer exists to protect you. You betray me and I will kill you. [Loki smiles]

It’s not said solely in the script, this is what Hiddleston said about Loki in “Thor: The Dark World” as well:

…and in a way reverse the arc of the character. Because he’s always defined himself in opposition. Thor has always been offering an olive branch. ‘Come back. We forgive you. Come back.’ And it’s Loki’s kind of arrogant privilege to say ‘No. I still hate you.’ And…in this film I think…nobody’s offering the olive branch. He’s in prison, condemned to be written out of history, forgotten, unseen, unheard, and haunted by his demons. You have to change at that point. So that surprised me. How far further down does he go before he hits rock bottom? Is there one for him? And…could he come back up? [“Nov 2013 Hiddleston Interview: Commentary on the Commentary (and much more)“]

…and yet, in “Thor: The Dark World”, despite his brother saying he previously held back when fighting because he hoped his brother was still there (a clear hint he loved such brother) and that now he no longer believes in such hope, Loki didn’t sell him to the Dark Elves and even stopped the Kurse from killing him, which lead him to be stabbed… and mind you, originally the wound was meant to be fatal… but whatever, this is a discussion for another post.

Anyway basically what Thor told him back then… is more or less the same he told him in the elevator scene so Tom Hiddleston’s explanation about how this would AGAIN affect Loki would make sense if it wasn’t for the electrocution scene that gets in the way.

On another note the Junior novel is apparently based on an older script for “Thor: Ragnarok” and in it things work a lot more better.

There’s no elevator scene or electrocution scene. The two brother had a talk in which Thor bares his soul to Loki and encourages him to change as well.

“You’ll help us free Asgard from Hela’s grip when we arrive? I can count on you?” Thor asked. “Of course. After all, I’m sure you blame me for her resurgence. It’s at least I can do.” Loki appeared contrite. “Although, I am curious, why the sudden change of heart to become Odinson and assume the throne?” “It is what is needed to defeat Hela. Therefore it is my duty,” Thor said plainly. He let out a small sigh, his voice almost apologetic. “In the past I demanded the throne when I hadn’t earned it, and then refused the throne when Asgard needed me most. You stole it. Twice.” “Yet you are always forgiven,” Loki said, trying not to sneer. “My point is that our self-centered conflict over Asgard has ruined our kingdom. We have been so focused on fighting for the top we’ve forgotten there’s a middle and a bottom. If I’m to be king, then I want to be a custodian, not a conqueror.” “Why the sudden baring of your soul to me?” Loki asked. Thor turned to his brother. “Because I want to change. I want to be better. And I think you can, too. Helping us escape has shown you can take strides toward that.” He looked at Loki earnestly. “Make a fresh start, brother. It’s time.” [“Thor: Ragnarok - The Junior Novel”]

While this bit is clearly not perfect (especially since there are some canon mistakes) it contains the same idea that Loki should change and be more that is also in the electrocution speech, but it’s way more love inspiring than having your brother leaving you wriggling in pain on the floor.

Thor doesn’t try to pass himself for a perfect hero but admits his faults as well as the wish to be better. This dialogue continues with the theme of “Thor” in which Thor tries to be worthy and, in opening his heart to Loki and saying they can both improve could have reminded him again they used to be brothers who loved each other and their own country.

But, okay, I’m digressing.

On another note… it’s clear they expected Tom Hiddleston to say something nice about “Thor: Ragnarok”. I know there’s a huge part of the fandom who would just love if it were to respectfully disrespected but, for start, I don’t think that’s Hiddleson’s style and, anyway, he wouldn’t be allowed to do so. Not only “Thor: Ragnarok” was successful but Waititi is now directing “Thor: Love and Thunder”. Marvel clearly counts on it to ride the success of “Thor: Ragnarok” and be successful as well so it’s not like they’ll want us to forget it or allow Hiddleston to speak poorly of it.

Still there are some interesting things to point out.

The first is that Hiddleston spoke about the other movies a lot more than about this one. It’s around 1 minute commenting versus the 1 minute and a half of the other 3 movies and he mentions just that one scene while in the others we see more than 1 (I’m obviously skipping “Avengers: Infinity War” and “Avengers: Endgame” because Loki’s role in the was way too small to discuss it at length).

Long story short, while Hiddleston doesn’t say anything against “Thor: Ragnarok” he clearly didn’t have much he wanted to say. He focused on what to the audience felt a nice moment about Thor and Loki and then moved on.

The second scene is that in the montage of the video they cut part of Thor’s sentence so that all the viewers hear is “I thought we were gonna fight side by side forever. But, at the end of the day, you're you, I'm me... I don't know, maybe there's still good in you, but let's be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago.”

Basically they left out the “Loki, I thought the world of you.”

Maybe it’s a coincidence but still it’s interesting they didn’t realize they were cutting the most emotional line of that bit.

Whatever, it happens.

Anyway, for what’s worth, those are my two cents on the whole thing.

#thor #thor odinson #loki #loki odinson #tom hiddleston #interview #9 worlds study #mcu thor #mcu the avengers #mcu thor the dark world #mcu thor ragnarok #mcu avengers infinity war #mcu avengers endgame #odin borson #frigga

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