#he's a wanda apologist and so an i same with

[writing-for-life]

So, you mentioned something about Thessaly in a 90s context in one of your responses to another post, and I was wondering if you could expand on that. Because yeah, I have no problem with her *existing* as a character, because obviously she has a role in the narrative, but I highly suspect that her perceived role has changed a LOT in the intervening years since the initial writing.

As someone who first read Sandman in 2022, I figured that her character role was to get us to question what we think we know about Morpheus. Can we really trust that he's changed or improved, or that he's even all that likeable, if he's literally jumping into bed with this thoroughly unpleasant woman who likes violent murder *way* too much and also seems to be transphobic to boot?

At the same time, though, I got the uncomfortable sense that we were supposed to *like* Thessaly. In a sort of, "You go girl, be a #girlboss, let's show these boys we can be JUST as good at killing as them!" sort of way. Which I rationalized as "well, that probably was progressive in the 90s, but the idea of cold blooded violence and emphasis on the possession of a womb being feminist ideals has aged poorly."

So, yeah, I'm wondering if that is anywhere close to how she seemed in the "intended" context.

[As always: Send me asks about everything Sandman-related!]

This is such a good ask, and I feel there are a lot of bases to cover here. Not sure if I’ll do it justice, but here goes…

Disclaimer straightaway: I absolutely detest Thessaly and everything she’s done narratively, and I’m neither a Thessaly-apologist, nor someone who loves her as a character. But I think we need to discuss her with a bit more nuance than I see in lot of fandom spaces.

I think first of all, we need to look at:

Thessaly as a fictional character

As you already pointed out, she naturally has a role in the narrative. I also think parts of her role in said narrative are sometimes a bit misunderstood. One prime example would be the idea she never loved Morpheus. And yes, she absolutely always put herself and her own interests first, so from that angle, she loved herself more than she loved him. That doesn’t mean she never loved him at any point though. Many people quote her saying that she never did as proof that she didn’t. But what people say doesn’t always align with what they feel or do: She says at his wake she swore she’ll never cry over him again—and cries while she’s saying it. That tells us two things: She *did* cry because of him before. And she *does* cry now.

Again, she is a selfish, utterly horrid bitch, but she loved him at some point, and she was mad at him for neglecting her and not paying her enough attention. That’s when it turned sour (and we know how absolutely shit at communicating with women Morpheus is, so they’re both as bad as each other in that regard).

I see her as someone who is totally disconnected/dissociated from her emotions, to the extent that she probably really believes what she says, out of some deep-rooted fear of any kind of vulnerability. Why that is—we can only speculate, because Neil never went into it, hence nothing we assume will ever be canon.

What can be considered canon, however, is that Neil has confirmed the fact that she *did* love him at some point—most notably in the Sandman Companion:

Hy Bender: […] Of course, she’s lying when she says she never loved the Sandman.

Neil Gaiman: Of course; I think that’s made explicit by the final panel, where she says, `I swore I would never shed another tear for him’ while crying. But after he’s won her and then returned to his duties, he wasn’t enough for her anymore. She wanted attention; and when she wasn’t getting it, she said, “Right. We’re done,” and walked out on him.”

I’d also like to point out that the most trans-exclusionary prick in the whole of AGoY is actually George, just that he’s not a woman, and hence, no one ever seems to mention it (he’s actually the one egging Wanda on, not Thessaly). Plus, walking the moon road is maiden, mother and crone to a T, and consciously so. Foxglove is the maiden, Hazel is pregnant, and Thessaly is ancient. So Thessaly’s choice was also based on that, and the only one who Wanda really could have *potentially* replaced would have been Foxglove; she presumably never had penetrative sex, unlike Hazel (in the archaic definition of what penetration means, so we don’t need to argue about lesbian sex practices now). We don’t know that about Wanda, no matter if someone sees her as a man or a woman. I didn’t mean to get that explicit about maiden status, but I guess it *is* important in this context (although yes, of course Thessaly said Wanda is a man, and I’m not arguing that either, but I still think it was grounded in her belief how moon magic works).

Which brings me to a very important point: Thessaly is ancient. Culturally, we can’t compare her to someone who grew up in the 20th century, also with regard to her violent inclinations. She is thousands of years old. She’s seen it all. She has a fierce sense of self-preservation, maybe even rooted in some fears or trauma of her own. All not very nice character traits, no, but that’s not the yardstick, and probably was never supposed to be. I also remember Neil saying he consciously wanted to oppose neopaganism and the watered down, new wave witchcraft of the time (late 1980s/early 1990s, and that, I really remember), which was all about the “divine feminine”, female empowerment, tarot cards and incense sticks. I’m being a bit flippant now, but it isn’t far off. It was more of a trend than anything. He wanted to consciously oppose it with someone who would still act according to ancient, rather violent codes and rules. And Morpheus will have known those, and probably found them less surprising than we do (doesn’t necessarily mean he’d condone them either).

The fact whether Thessaly should make us question Morpheus in the comics is a tricky one. What she definitely *should* make us question is: Morpheus could have quite easily broken some rules in the Kindly Ones when Thessaly had set up the protection circle for Lyta, and the consequences probably would have been less disastrous than playing by said rules. And we can safely presume he knew. We are also supposed to question the same when he lets Nuala call in her boon and doesn’t just say: “This isn’t really a good time, can we do this later?” (and he absolutely COULD have done that), but actually follows through with going ,“Well, what gives, I basically grant you your boon now and leave the Dreaming, even though I know the potential consequences.” So yes, Thessaly is supposed to make us question Dream’s choices, but probably not the way we think. And for that, we perhaps should look deeper into…

Thessaly the TERF and Feminism in the late 1980s/early 1990s

This might get a bit longwinded, and I am showing my age here. I grew up at the intersection of second wave and third wave feminism, and as a bisexual woman, I made a lot of experiences during the early 90s that feel wholly aligned with the plot of AGoY (which was written during that time). I don’t want to write a whole essay about feminism here, but second wave feminism was on its way out in the late 80s. A lot of the bad associations some people have with feminism today stem from that time (not always justified, because a lot of good was achieved during that period. But parts of it in specific sub-communities—definitely problematic). Equality vs equity discussions within the feminist movement were dominating everything, and the divide between radfems and libfems was getting deeper. People like Audre Lorde IMHO rightly criticised that failing to understand that not all women start on equal footing, that not all women are the same, is problematic (so you could easily see how this is incorporated into the narrative of AGoY).

Second wave feminism wasn’t just about making sure women had rights. It was very much about “all of us can do everything men do, and we want the same a man gets”. It was all about the workspace (so often very white, CIS, middle class), not being at home with the kids etc (of course there were also other topics, but this one was really quite dominant). You could even see it fashion (massive shoulder pads etc). All the while, actually *being* a man was vilified (again, just in certain quarters).

So I feel you’re on to something with your #girlboss comment, only that I don’t think it was intentionally set up to like her, but rather as a criticism of what certain quarters of the feminist movement were like at the time.

Personal anecdote: I got that type of schtick from WITHIN the LGBT community at the time. Bi-erasure was big. And there were radfem lesbians that would actually tell you that being bi doesn’t exist, that you are basically a traitor to your “sisters” and just a lesbian who isn’t fully out. The same shite they used to criticise about men who would say you’re only a lesbian because you haven’t found the right guy yet. And here they went, telling you that you can’t be attracted to men if you’re also attracted to women.

Third wave feminism has a much stronger focus on the individual woman and what it means to be a woman to HER. This also included trans women, much more than during the second wave. Judith Butler’s work is actually exemplary for this (in essence, there is no such woman as “the” woman—we’re all different despite sharing common traits and problems. Trying to make us all the same will only harm us in the long run).

And with AGoY and Thessaly, we are exactly at the moment in time (in the comics) where that shift happens. I think Neil got it right for the time, and understood a lot of what was going on. Many people in queer communities felt really understood and seen, myself included. I absolutely see how that translates differently today. But it always saddens me when the historical context gets completely stripped away, and people don’t take the time a work of fiction was written into consideration and only measure it from today’s viewpoint. We can, and absolutely have to be critical if the TV shows fails to address these points and just translates everything 1-2-1. Which I am fairly certain won’t happen, because Thessaly has already been stripped off a lot of her obvious TERFiness in the Audible. I’m not even sure if we’ll get her in the show—we’ll hopefully find out.

Phew, that was long, I’m gonna lie down 😂

#sandman meta #sandman #the sandman #thessaly #sandman and feminism #agoy #a game of you #Wanda #the wake

[lokiinmediasideblog]

The reason why Sigyn is so popular among a certain subset of Loki apologists is not just because she lacks personality thus making her a perfect self isert vessel, it's because since her only personality is being a meek submissive wifey she's the only woman whom they can trust will never call him out on his bullshit, have conflicting interests, argue, or have any animosity toward him that they read as abuse (someone should really introduce them to the book Conflict Is Not Abuse). I just saw a Sigyn stan make a list of Why Every Female Love Interest Loki Ever Had Is A BACKSTABBING BITCH, and in the list they naturally mention Sylvie because of the season finale, then Amora and Lorelei that, granted, did betray him, then Wanda, because that brief fake out that they called a malicious act of emotional abuse, then Leah, whom they claim have betrayed him and I still trying to figure, wtf, HOW???? cause wasn't he the one who (was forced to) betray her when he sent her to the past? Or they're talking about the time his guilty conscience took her form in YA? Do they hate women so much that they're holding the way a man's nightmares chose to manifest against them? Anyway, it just proves that Loki apologists treat him like a fragile baby and that they hate women so much that any animosity or conflict from their part makes them irredeemable monsters and the only woman who's good enough for him is a submissive enabler who has no motivations of her own that might conflict with his.

EXACTLY. And I am a Loki apologist. I will never get over that one Sigyn stan trying to paint Sylkis as the misogynists "because we all slut-shamed Amora" and trying to join forces with Amora fans (LOL point to WHERE HAVE I SLUTSHAMED AMORA?! I have merely said Sylvie's better written). While calling Sylvie a "slattern" in the same fucking post. And having posts about how "feisty" Sigyn is for calling Lorelei a "slattern" and being happy that Amora is being forcefully given to a giant/ogre in the comics.

#anon asks #mcu!loki #mcu!sylvie #comics!loki #marvel comics #comics!amora #comics!lorelei #anti logyn #anti sigyn stans #comics!sigyn #comics!leah

[valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn]

Reddit comments are comparing Wanda and Loki, defending Wanda by saying she was brainwashed by the Darkhold and wasn't herself, while also saying that Loki was just a genuinely bad person that murdered thousands of people. Awesome.

wow the cognitive dissonance is strong in that one!

So Clint and Selvig are given a pass because the Mind Stone was messing with their minds.

Whatever the Avengers said in the helicarrier is excused because the Mind Stone was fucking with their heads.

The minutemen and Mobius are forgiven because the TVA erased their memories.

Wanda was being corrupted by the Darkhold and she wasn't herself so anything she did can't be blamed on her (I still think they did her dirty in MoM but that's another story).

But Loki, the guy who was confirmed to be influenced by the same Stone that excuses and justifies Clint, Selvig, Fury and the Avengers, is the ONLY one who doesn't get a pass and is still to this day, 10 years later, hated on for the NYC invasion? How is it possible that these people never mention Thanos?

You know how people call us Loki apologists for defending him and saying he always was more than a villain? Every time I see someone hate on him for the NYC invasion I'm going to start calling them Thanos apologists.

[thetimble]

I posted 2,064 times in 2022

44 posts created (2%)

2,020 posts reblogged (98%)

Blogs I reblogged the most:

@screaminginternallyalleternity

@misbird

@flythesail

@wanda-apologist

@pangur-and-grim

I tagged 765 of my posts in 2022

#nace - 38 posts

#stranger things - 15 posts

#cw nancy drew - 15 posts

#steroline - 14 posts

#the sandman - 12 posts

#bridgerton - 12 posts

#fanson - 10 posts

#stranger things spoilers - 10 posts

#kanthony - 10 posts

#black sails - 8 posts

Longest Tag: 138 characters

#the thing i hate more than both is when a character decides it regrets in evil past and so the narrative & audience forgive them instantly

My Top Posts in 2022:

#5

Living for Netflix’s new belvafore screen saver

20 notes - Posted January 29, 2022

#4

I very much enjoyed the parts of Kenobi last night that I could actually see. Why do studios release shows in the middle of summer, and then make them so dark that even a small amount of outside light makes them completely unwatchable?

25 notes - Posted June 23, 2022

#3

I have so many feelings about the finale! The epic highs and lows of Nace, Nick immediately calling for George when he saw the tsunami, RYAN??? ACE??? A death curse???

33 notes - Posted January 29, 2022

#2

I think one of the most painful things for Nancy is knowing that Ace thinks she doesn’t love him back SPECIFICALLY because he isn’t good enough for her. It’s not just a case of Ace thinking she doesn’t feel the same way, he thinks she finds him lacking as a partner. And she has to let him think that, because that’s what it takes to save his life, even though the truth is she thinks the entire world of him

59 notes - Posted March 25, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

The home town gang seem really convinced that they can clear Eddie’s name by solving the mystery of Vecna but don’t seem to have realised that they’ll have to convince the police that the real murderer is a monster from a different dimension

64 notes - Posted June 5, 2022

Get your Tumblr 2022 Year in Review →

#tumblr2022 #year in review #my 2022 tumblr year in review #your tumblr year in review

[benedictsvestcollection]

Okay so the director of WV, Matt Shankman did an interview yesterday and said something that inherently pissed me off so I’m gonna rant. 

In an article with TV Line (and probably other sites too but this is where I saw it) he claimed: "Wanda has suffered more loss than anybody in the MCU." (and in another interview he also claimed that WV is the only MCU project to explore mental illness) 

Let me tell you why that pisses me the HELL off. 

They’re trying to make us feel sorry for Wanda as if:

She’s the only one who’s suffered loss or trauma in the MCU (newsflash: she’s DEFINITELY not. Not even close.)

She didn’t willingly join a Nazi organization. She literally volunteered for Hydra.

She didn’t take a whole town hostage in her grief and when they asked her to free them all she said NO. 

You know who else in the MCU has suffered grief and trauma? Just as much (if not more than whitewashed W*nda?)

Tony Stark: Iron Man 3 is literally an entire film about him dealing with PTSD and anxiety from going through a wormhole in the Avengers. (Don’t use the ‘he sold the missile that killed W*nda’s family argument when it was established in IM1 that all that shit was Obadiah Stane and Tony didn’t know about that then)

Thor: Lost both his parents, his brother, his best friend Heimdall, and half his people were slaughtered. And worse? His trauma and depression were just mocked and played for laughs in Endgame.

Bucky: Was brainwashed and tortured by Hydra (coincidentally the same organization that W*nda volunteered for) for what.... 70 years? 

Gamora: Half her planet was freaking destroyed by Thanos who then essentially kidnapped her and tortured her to become a killing machine for him.

Nebula: Was also made and tortured to be a killing machine for Thanos. (both her and Gamora were/are now redeemed as of Endgame)

Carol: Was kidnapped by the Kree, brainwashed/gaslit for god knows how many years to kill and slaughter other planets for the Kree. 

Now.... Onto the ‘only MCU project to explore mental illness’ part: 

Another hilarious statement to make when:

Iron Man 3, again pretty obviously shows Tony dealing with PTSD and anxiety. And even talking his shit out with Bruce in the end. 

It’s already been stated by Sebastian Stan that in FAWS Bucky will be going to therapy and will be ‘a mess’ (understandably so) throughout S1.

It’s been stated that Moon Knight will address Marc Spector’s mental illness/Dissociative Identity Disorder. (I know this isn’t out yet but I wanted to point that out)

So to sit there and act like W*nda’s some special snowflake when she is in fact, NOT. Pisses me the hell off. 

Especially since after all of the previously mentioned characters were redeemed.... 

And none of them took an entire fucking town hostage and then outright refused to free them when asked. 

I’m not here to feel fucking sorry for her after that shit, so don’t add any W*nda apologist crap on this post. I will block you so hard and fast if you do. 

#anti Wanda Maximoff #anti wandavision #Marvel #MCU #I'm sure there are other characters that have also suffered but those are the one's that I could think of #don't excuse Wendy on this fucking post

[redroomfcrged]

another random reminder is that when i write a character, i look back at their stories be it movie or comic or whatever, and look at things from their point of view to get a deeper understanding of their mindset, history, perspectives.  in some cases this may then make it seem like i’m being an apologist or ‘woobifying’ them or whatever but in reality, every story has multiple sides and perspectives -- looking at the same story / source / movie from multiple perspectives is going to mean that some things will seem justified from one angle and villainous from another.  

this is not me in any way trying to legitimately justify these character’s behaviors.  for example, trying to wipe out half of life in the universe, clearly not the best way to go about it especially when doing so with armies and just randomly massacring thousands / millions / billions of people IS NOT COOL -- but thanos is going to defend that point of view as a desperate measure to stem the tide of what he sees as the eventual destruction of everything because he tried to warn his people, his planet about what was happening and they wouldn’t listen and then they ALL DIED -- and there comes a point when when you’ve done so many things that are desperate measures and that are horrific in the eyes of others to achieve this thing that you genuinely believe will help everyone in the end you just stop listening to other people’s opinions and perspectives and focus on your goal to the exclusion of all else no matter what the cost to yourself or the people around you (ie nebula, gamora etc etc)

for wanda -- keeping in mind that her access to multi media as a whole was likely restricted, given the trauma that she suffered as a child, the terror and fear that her whole life was built on, the desperate need to stop others from suffering at the hands of a War Criminal like stark -- a megalomaniac who had power and money beyond her actual imagining who, as far as she could tell, didn’t give a rat’s ass where and when his weapons ended up so long as he kept raking in the dough -- and with no genuine concept of what hydra was -- and keeping in mind we have no idea what they told her and pietro that they actually were or what they were going to do to them before hand -- yeah -- she made a choice to open herself up to experimentation by these guys that /we/ know to be bad guys, but did she ? doubtful - and she thought she was doing it for the right reasons - think of how hydra operates and who all they have pretended to be -- even SHIELD for years, decades, that no one knew the difference -- 

from her perspective shield / the avengers et al were monstrous -- 

and then she realizes the error of her ways and tries to make amends, tries to help them, save them, stop ultron -- at the cost of her brother -- 

and so on

i mean i could literally write thousands and thousands of words on so many of my characters here but 

my point is

i’m not trying in any way to excuse their behavior from an ooc perspective

i’m just exploring things from other perspectives, their perspectives, to better develop them.  

#OOC.

[ussthunderquack]

Every ship you hate is not automatically “abusive.”

Stony =/= condoning everything Steve Rogers ever did onscreen. People who write Stony are not dismissing the actions of a real man, they are fixing the clumsy writing of a fictional character. Those of us who enjoy Stony fics and art are not Capstans or Cap-apologists, we are simply relieved to have the old, pre-Russos, Steve Rogers back. 

Stucky existed long before “Civil Fart.” And like Stony, it (presumably) either addresses any questionable actions of attitudes Steve might have, or just retcons them out of existence. (I never cared for Stucky myself, and god knows I don’t care for MCU-Steve Rogers, but even I think “abusive” is a leap here.) 

Winteriron...okay, you Capdroids calling this ship “abusive” can’t even wrap your heads around a human reacting the way Tony did to that video, so I won’t bother trying to explain trauma or redemption arcs to you. Same goes for you Tony stans who blame Bucky for something he did under mind control. Oppose the coupling because it’s unlikely and possibly unhealthy, if you want; but don’t act like Tony or Bucky is a villain. 

By the same token, IronStrange is not “abusive” because Stephen Strange “murdered” Tony. It was a necessary cold calculation to save the literal universe. The stupidity in that fact lies in the movie’s writers, but not with Stephen. 

Winterwitch is not about padding Wanda’s ass and condoning all the bad things  she did. It’s about giving her the guilt complex and redemption arc that the films arguably neglected to, with a character who would serve said arc far better than Robin Hood and the toaster.  ScareltVision does not suck  because Vision or Wanda was abusive in the movie where everyone was OOC and hella abusive to each other; it sucks because Vision just sucks. . 

IronWitch.... wait, wut? Um, no thank you. I love both characters, but....not like this.

On that note, Starker is very abusive, but not because canon-Tony supposedly “abuses” his Spider-Son. It’s abusive because Iron Dads should not do that with their Spider Sons. The power and experience imbalance makes the romance nasty. 

You calling Pepperony “abusive” are just on coke. The “anti-Starks” of course think “abusive” just means “anything done by a person I don’t like,” but I have no idea where Tony-stans get the idea that Pepper is “abusive.” Because they bicker and argue a lot? If that’s your reason and you still ship IronStrange or Stony, then you’re dumb. 

NatBruce....is admittedly problematic if the Hulk is a metaphor for violent mental illness, but you don’t have to be so nasty about it. 

Steggy.... may be abusive if you’re taking the “Steve as Edward Cullen watching Peggy sleep” thing straight and condoning it, but I doubt all Steggy fics do that. The fact that so many people say “Endgame” “ruined Steggy for them” is a tip that the ship itself doesn’t always coincide with the Russos’s stupid execution of it. 

IronPrincess: You nasty. 

#mcu #ship #ships #stony #stucky #winteriron #Winterwitch #ironstrange #pepperony #brucenat #steggy #anti starker #anti ironwitch #anti ironprincess #avengers #abusive #iron dad #spider son #super family #domestic avengers #anti scarletvision

[buckysboobs]

no offense but 1. wanda apologists are so weird saying what she did was valid because she was grieving. 2. wanda and bucky's situations are incomparable and the fact that i see feminist boss idiots say we don't hate bucky for the same reason almost everyday makes me puke

EXACTLY! no offense taken. it has absolutely nothing to do with male privilege and the fact that they're making this about feminism is so outta pocket? NO ONE in the mcu can be compared to the amount of trauma bucky has gone through and it's dumb as fuck if they think he and wanda are the same. i will murder them

#zee answers

[lunannex]

I feel like I could understand Monica's sympathy for Wanda if it was just because she could relate to her over the loss of a loved one but literally saying Westview's citizens "just don't appreciate what she's done for them" felt very off. Also Ralph boner.

Those are my exact thoughts!

I was really hoping that they would connect Monica and Wanda through their grief, and that they'd form some sort of companionship. They were both dealing with very similar situations –though they each had very different ways of dealing with it, and while one was a lot more unacceptable than the other, both were still ultimately unhealthy– and they could've come together to help each other heal. The intent to have that happen was there, but it got sidelined (just like Monica herself did) as the story went on.

The negative impact Wanda had on all of the Westview citizens matters more than the intent, or at least it should matter more. It doesn't matter how you look at it, by taking the town of Westview and therefore all of its inhabitants hostage, Wanda was taking away their personhood and their free will.

Yes, she was grieving after having lost the last person she had left and I can sympathize with that. What I can't sympathize with is her basically psychologically kidnapping the Westview citizens because she was grieving. She should've faced at least a few repercussions for her actions, even if she didn't go to jail, but she didn't. She was not held accountable for any of it and was basically absolved of the blame.

Having Monica of all people say that "they'll never know how much you sacrificed for them" line was not only out of character but also just...not true? Like you said, it felt off. Wanda sacrificed her family, yes, and I do feel bad for her, but that family wouldn't have existed in the first place if she hadn't created the Hex.

The fact that Monica, a Black woman, was basically there to be Wanda's apologist feels so wrong to me on so many levels. Monica herself described being mind-controlled by Wanda as excruciating and terrifying, and not to mention that Wanda's behavior towards her was very unnecessarily violent and uncalled for. And having her say that line in particular (along with the "I'd bring my mom back if I had your powers, too." line) just caused the narrative to absolve Wanda of the blame and to frame her as the actual victim when she wasn't, and that would've been fine. 

Characters should be allowed to have flaws, they should be allowed to make mistakes and to be messy. It's why Money Heist is one of my all time favorite shows, all of its characters are morally ambiguous people who can be cruel, ruthless, selfish, and just generally not good people. They're all pretty terrible, actually. They've acknowledged that throughout the whole show, and all of that is what makes them such great characters. That's the type of complexity that I wish we got with Wanda in this series. Not all of her actions had to be seen as heroic, because they weren't. Not in the slightest. They've already done her character a massive disservice by blatantly whitewashing her and erasing all of her Romani and Jewish heritage, so it would've been nice to see her at least be a more developed and fleshed-out character in the MCU, you know?

------

And about the Ralph Bohner thing! I never watched any of the X-men movies so I don't have that same connection with it that others do, so I never dug in too much into all those Peter Maximoff theories? I don't actually care much about it, but it's definitely disappointing that he was just used as a throwaway joke, and a really stupid one at that. Like...Boner?? Seriously??? I just laughed in that "what the fuck" type of way because it was the last thing I was expecting lmao. Overall, I enjoyed the series, I really did! But I can enjoy something while also recognizing that it has flaws and that it still warrants criticism (and in WandaVision's case, it warrants a LOT of it), just like every other piece of media does.

#luna answers #wandavision spoilers #i kind of went off on a rant there but yeah! those are my thoughts on that part of the finale in particular

[zivitz]

I can’t reblog this post so I’m just gonna copy and paste my reply. And then I have better things to do with my brain space than respond to people who are  attempting to browbeat me into submission while simultaneously refusing to allow me to participate, explain, or elaborate on my POV. So I might be talking to myself here, but it makes me feel better. To my followers, I’m sorry for the novel.

@trashpandabarnes ( @trashpanda-barnes) wrote:

yeah, abusing and gaslighting your “daughter” whose family who burnt to the ground, whom you tried to manipulate and sacrificed AGAINST HER WILL, as she ACTIVELY EXPRESSED HER DESIRE TO FREE HERSELF FROM YOU but you threw her off the cliff’s edge because u want power, because you don’t actually care about your “daughter” but are ALL about making her tragedy of negligence and abuse ALL YOUR OWN self-vicimized manpain is totally the characteristics of a fantastique dad™, ooof i could go on and on on the Gamora thing alone but then there’s Nebula who you mistreated her whole life and constantly pit her against the only person who she felt like she could have a connection to, and never passed up a chance to insult her, saying killing her would be a “waste of parts”. Boi oh boi @zivitz never fucking have kids dude if you think saying/doing this kind of shit to your kids is still gonna get u the award of father of the year bc no matter how much u claim u love ur kids, it doesn’t fucking excuse the abuse and also never have a girlfriend if this is how you think women are to be treated in fiction/otherwise —its 2018, women deserve  better than to  be treated as plot device for a self-importance asshole’s cringey angst. Get tf outta here with your apologist attitude, dufe. Thanos shows no remorse or no acknowledgement of faults and therefore, no character growth. He is stubborn and self-absorbed and a deadass weak villian. Marvel went about wrong with constantly trying to sympathize him, he’s a purple egoistic maniac and that is not an appealing character trait and should NOT have been glamorized by marvel for edgy fanboys like you with barely one working braincell, end of.

First of all, and this must be embarrassing for you- I’m not a guy. At least, I hope it’s embarrassing, because you’re making a fuck of a lot of assumptions based on this belief and they’re all wrong.

There seems to be a lot of thought going around that I am, and I quote, “pro-Thanos”. That I defend his actions or justify them in any way. That I think he’s a swell guy who’s just a misunderstood woobie. Or something. I think you’re confusing me with the Loki fangirls, but whatever.

Thanos being both capable of love and actually loving Gamora doesn’t make him a good person. It’s pretty clear throughout the movie that Gamora is literally the only person he loves. At all. In the universe. Except for himself, that is. Just because he’s capable of loving Gamora doesn’t mean he loves Nebula- I mean, clearly he fucking hates her. He doesn’t love the Black Order. I have a hunch that they started out as his ‘children’ in terms of being under his protection, guidance, and doing his bidding, but he was taken by Gamora and she became his daughter in thought and deed as well as word.

I have never ever said he was a good father, either. He clearly was not; no good parent puts their child through that kind of pain. No good parent rips a child away from their family, kills them, forces them into a life they neither are ready for nor would have chosen. A good parent (even most bad parents) doesn’t pit children against each other. Gamora had an abusive childhood, flat out. No one’s arguing that. Thanos is a big fat child abuser. He abused her (and Nebula, and probably the Black Order) to suit his own purpose. It was bad and wrong and fucked them all up royally and none of them deserved that.

Now take a step back and get the fuck of your high horse for a minute, and look at it from Thanos’s perspective. He is the hero of his own story. That’s what we were meant to see in Infinity War. A peek at the story from his point of view. Not that we were supposed to believe he was right, not that they were saying he had a point, or that we should sympathize with him. We’re not supposed to see character growth because he’s not the hero and there is no redemption. We’re just seeing how things look from his vantage point.

He saw his world die and couldn’t stop it because no one was strong enough to do the terrible, awful thing that would have saved it.  And he saw the same things happening all over, so he decided he was the only one strong enough to do what needed to be done. And he worked hard at it. He collected his ‘children’, those he could raise and train to be strong like him and carry out his work. Carry on his work, if it lasted beyond his lifetime.

Gamora came along and was Different. In that deleted scene, he said himself he saw himself as alone and he was okay with that (he says in a voice that very much says he was Not Okay With That) because he had ‘a new vocation’. Until Gamora. He loved her. Took her under his wing, trained her, challenged her to be the best she could be. Gave her a family. Thought she, his favourite daughter, would be his heir. Wanted her to choose it, choose him, and let her leave when she didn’t instead of dragging her back and punishing her. He doesn’t really care that she’s rejecting him because he loves her regardless, but is hurt by the betrayal of her lies because she was the one person he trusted completely. He hurts her, but only as much as he has to to get what he needs. If he didn’t need to, he wouldn’t hurt her (we see this again and again- he could have killed Bruce, Groot, Cap, Wanda- and he didn’t. He just wanted them out of his way). His Vocation is more important at this point. And even then, he struggles with the decision that he must sacrifice the one person he loves and again be utterly alone- and live with the knowledge that he’s killed his child, his ‘everything’- for the sake of the Greater Good.

That’s how Thanos views himself. Is that how I view him? Not really. I mean, objectively speaking he did pretty fucking unspeakable things for what he thinks in his own incredibly misguided way is the right thing to do. Did Gamora deserve all that? Fuck, no. No one does. Did he love her during all of that, think he was doing what was best for her? Yup. Was it actually what was best for her? Fucking hell. No.

I love Gamora. I feel a great affinity for her because I grew up in an abusive household, where I was groomed and manipulated to be what my mother wanted and needed me to be. I was made in her image, to be useful to her and do what she needed and prop her up. I was her enabler for a long time. I didn’t break away from her until I was long into adulthood. And yet, I was loved. My mother thought she was doing the right thing by me. She thought she was making me into a strong person. She was doing her best to make me the best I could be by her vision. Because she loved me. She was wrong about what she was doing. She fucked me up in ways I’m still learning about.  I can see both worlds: the one my mother inhabits, and the real world.

I feel Gamora. I really, truly do. But liking Thanos, being able to see how he sees himself and yes, even feel bad for someone who’s suffering even if they’re a crazy abusive monster, doesn’t mean I have to agree with him. Doesn’t mean I think he’s justified, doesn’t make me an apologist. Doesn’t mean I love Gamora any less.

And it doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. That I support abuse, abusers, or would abuse anyone in any way. I work with very young children precisely because I was abused and no one helped me. And I want to keep that from happening to other children, to keep them from growing up like I did. It’s my own version of “There are little girls like you across the universe who are in danger. You can stay with us and help them.” You make a lot of assumptions about me, and we all know what they say about that. This is fandom, but we’re all people here. Maybe check yourself before you go shooting your mouth off about shit you know nothing about.

#Thanos #fandom drama #you don't have to agree with me #but fuck off with the personal attacks and assumptions #infinity war

[willowlark369]

More Fun Facts

Author’s Note(s):

Story title is referencing the piece I wrote immediately before this one (Fun Facts). If you dislike themed names for meta series, well, I guess you will just have to dislike the title. It wasn’t chosen to offend you. It was chosen to please me.

I am presenting just a list of information. Any conclusions that you come to using the information are your own. Any emotions you feel about those conclusions or the information contained on the list are your own. Conclusions which may be drawn from presented information are not particularly friendly towards certain characters, because canon isn’t particularly friendly to them.

I strongly remind all readers that you are free to conclude whatever you wish from the information listed below. That freedom also extends to ignoring it if that is what would make you feel better. Choosing to ignore it does not require me to do so as well.

Note to All Maximoff Stans/Apologists: I understand that you dislike how your favorites have been portrayed by the MCU. This is understandable, as they are barely recognizable as versions of themselves from other runs of Marvel-verse. I am not the one you should be angry with, however. If you feel that either Maximoff is being “demonized” by the information on this list, I apologize but also empathize that I did not have any part in writing this run of canon. Arguing with me will not change canon.

Content Warning: This list contains references to a lot of disturbing topics such as human experimentation, terrorist organizations, and weapons. Reader discretion is advised beyond this point.

Wanda & Pietro Maximoff were adults when they volunteered for Wolfgang von Strucker’s experiments. The twins knew that other volunteers were dying and they still wanted their turn.

While no attempts were made to hide the bodies from the inhabitants of the base, it is possible that they somehow missed how the other volunteers disappeared to never be seen again. (Not logical, still possible.)

At the very least, the twins later demonstrate no surprise that they were the only survivors of the experiments.

The twins’ stated motivation for everything is not wanting to help Sokovia or the people living there. It was revenge on a single individual for something that had happened when the twins were ten.

Helping Sokovia was a possible motivation put forth by people researching what could be found on the twins when they were not brought into custody with the rest of the base’s personnel. As such, it does not override what the twins said about why they were doing things.

Wanda & Pietro Maximoff knew Wolfgang von Strucker was working for Hydra and was pursuing Hydra’s goals. None of this was hidden from them nor were the twins led to believe something different about the goals of the people they were working alongside.

None of the conversations shown about Hydra and the water-cooler style gossip about their plans among personnel show any attempt at secrecy, indicating that there was no worry about scaring off anyone who might be wandering around the base.

Even if the twins somehow did not hear any of the open discussions going on around them prior to submitting the experimentation, by her own admittance, Wanda’s telepathy does not allow for ignorance of who they were working with & for. Her exact words were “all men show themselves” after she demonstrated surprise that she had met a person whose mind she couldn’t read.

Wanda & Pietro Maximoff were not captives or brainwashed. While human experimentation involves a certain degree of pain and dehumanization, none of it was done without their ongoing consent.

The twins are shown being able to come and go from the facility, being treated as trusted allies with the same freedom of movement as other inhabitants of the base.

Wanda is shown being able to remove the influence of the scepter without the need to resort to "cognitive recalibration” methods.

Neither Maximoff show any sign of the Mind Stone’s control, which has a visual display.

Neither twin exhibits any fear of the other people in the Hydra base nor did they demonstrate any surprise at the automatic response to the morale callouts that the other personnel present participated in.

Both Wanda & Pietro Maximoff were trained to the extent that they were considered to be field ready. Hence why they were allowed to stay in the  combat during the Avengers’ raid of Wolfgang von Strucker’s base in Sokovia.

While deployment against the Avengers was discussed as a reasonable action to take, the twins actually elected to join the fight without being ordered, rendering said discussion as moot. During said combat, they successfully take on three out of six Avengers, nearly killing one. Only a desire to make him suffer prevented the death of another.

The twins had a reputation outside of Hydra. That reputation was attributed to someone else’s firsthand experience of a demonstration of the twins’ abilities.

Both twins were able to use their abilities in chaotic situations and distracting environments with an ease that speaks of experience. Even under emotional distress, Wanda is able to do precision work.

Wanda Maximoff has enough control over her mental manipulation ability to successfully control several blocks worth of people as mindless puppets at the same time. This is considered her main power, not the psychokinesis that allows her to blast things.

Both Wanda & Pietro Maximoff are capable and willing to leave a situation in which someone wants them to use their abilities for a cause or goal they do not believe to be worth it. Hence why they decide to not work with Ultron once they determine that he is planning to annihilate all of mankind, no exceptions, instead of just the Avengers.

At no point does either twin demonstrate regret or remorse for having willingly worked with first Hydra and then Ultron.

Neither twin demonstrate regret or remorse for having attacked and (in some cases) nearly killed the Avengers.

Wanda Maximoff does not demonstrate any regret for having forcefully violated the mental autonomy of the Avengers or that of the multiple individuals referenced as being potentially permanently locked in their nightmares due to her violation of them.

Wanda Maximoff does not demonstrate remorse for having forcefully triggered the Hulk and then violated the Hulk’s entire being (which had canonically shown as protective) by setting him to destroy a city. This is particularly noteworthy as Bruce was not a combatant at the time she targeted him. She specifically sought him out to do this because she “wanted the big one”.

The only authorized purchaser of Stark Weapon Tech was the United States Military Forces. All other organizations or individuals had to have gained the weapons through the black market trading done by Obadiah Stane.

SHIELD falls under the control & command structure of the United States government. This could logically include using resources gained in any defense contracts held by the US government. In sharing the resources, Hydra would also have access to the resources gained from these same contracts.

Hydra had an interest in encouraging the civil unrest of Sokovia. There is no evidence that they did anything more than enjoy the fruits of the opportunity, but they certainly did have motivation to do so and such things are often a part of Hydra’s toolbox.

Repeating for emphasis: there is no canon evidence to suggest that Hydra caused or participated in the Sokovian Civil War, even if they did benefit from the Sokovian Civil War happening.

Also, it is a historical fact that the United States (not individual contractors) sold/loaned weapons and other military sundries to allied countries during various conflicts, including the Vietnam and Korean Wars. While the weapons were supposed to be returned at the end of the conflict, it was not uncommon (in the real world) for various generals and political leaders to sell the weapons to other forces in order to line their own pockets, leading to US military equipment showing up in unexpected places far from where it was originally sold.

Between 1990 and 2018, the United States Armed Forces have not been involved in any conflict which could logically have included the area between Czech Republic & Slovakia where Sokovia would be located if it existed.

Howard & Maria Stark died on December 16, 1991. There is a significant gap of time between this date and Tony Stark taking over Stark Industries as CEO from Obadiah Stane (who stays on the Board as CFO, which allowed him to start/continue his illegal sell of weapons).

Czech Republic is nestled between Germany and Poland. Slovakia is (in real life) the country that borders Czechia to the south-southeast. Sokovia is canonically between these two countries.

The closest real world armed conflict with authorized US involvement during this period (1990-2018) takes place in Serbia, on the other side of Hungary which is on the other side of Slovakia.

All these countries are placed in the Balkans, for those readers who aren’t familiar with the layout of Eastern Europe.

Historical evidence suggests that the US was likely not involved in the Sokovian Civil War at any point.

A civil war is when a country is drawn into a significant conflict with two (or more) internal forces. While outside forces may become involved at the request of one or mores sides, most external organizations try to stay uninvolved since all sides of a civil war belong to the same country.

Tony Stark was considered the foremost weapons designer for many reasons. Primarily, because the malfunction risk was negligible on anything he allowed out of his lab and should any malfunction be reported, SI investigates the reason and recalls any known defective tech. Weapons built to those designs and not tampered with were guaranteed to work every single time. No weapon jams; no missile duds. If he creates a weapon, it is going to let the user kill their target every single time.

That being said, Tony Stark is not the sole population of Stark Industries R&D department. Stark Industries is a multi-national company with employees around the world and a diverse number of interests. The R&D department cannot logically be a single person, especially a single person who is also functioning as the CEO for the company as well as lecturing at science conventions.

Answer to a Repeated Question: Facts are drawn from the movie Avengers: Age of Ultron; the comic tie-ins with particular focus on Avengers: Age of Ultron Prelude - This Sceptre’d Isle; and real world historical facts. If you have any question about the canon, feel free to review it at your leisure.

Final Reminder: Once again, I remind all readers that you have the freedom to ignore presented information if you are uncomfortable with it, regardless of why you are. You don’t have to attempt to validate that decision or justify having a conclusion that isn’t entailed by this information. No, I am not required to explain these things further to you. No, I am not required to justify my tone or provide a conclusion for you.

Edited (2/28/2018): Clarifications of points; addition of subpoints; addition of Read More line Edited (3/13/2018): Stronger reminder that ignoring these facts are fine Edited (6/12/2018): Reworked opening notes; Note to Maximoff Stans/Apologists added; clarification of points Edit (8/17/2019): Addition of subpoints for clarification purposes; Addition of links

#MCU #Meta #Just the Facts #Wanda Maximoff #Pietro Maximoff #Human Experimentation #Armed Conflicts #Black Market Weapon Trade #Secret Organizations #Terrorist Organizations #Mind Control

[brianwilly]

So apparently I wanna talk about Secret Empire

[Shows up a month late with Pete’s Coffee]

There’ve already been a lot of well-written thinkpieces and entries about this comic, about Nick Spencer, about it all.  But I wanted to maybe throw my two-cents into the pile because, to this day, I think most people are still a little confused about where the outrage is coming from, what exactly is making people uncomfortable, and why it all just keeps snowballing on itself.

And honestly I don’t blame those people; this whole situation is kinda hard to parse.  You think it’d be easy to understand why “They turned Captain America into a Nazi” makes people upset, but the thing about Secret Empire is that it honestly does a good pretty job of covering its own ass, of not doing anything overtly offensive, of leaving in all the loopholes and technicalities and escape clauses to its own premise. “It’s going to be undone in the end.” “He’s not actually a Nazi, he’s just brainwashed (even though the story goes on and on for pages about how he’s actually not brainwashed and is in fact a Nazi).” “We’re treating Nazis as bad guys, not glorifying them.” “And they’re not really Nazis, they’re Hydra, it’s totally different.” “We’re tackling topical issues!  Aren’t we brave!  And daring!”

And that’s the kind of stuff I wanna try to cut through here, but it’s gonna require...well...yet another thinkpiece.  Sorry about that.

So I think that Tumblr has covered much of this pretty well, but something to be aware of is that, for a while now, genre media has had A) really iffy mindsets about Jewish issues and B) a sort of casual flirtation with "cool Nazis" as some edgy cool thing to hype and market.  It’s not glorifying Nazis exactly, but it’s using that kind of imagery and ideology as tools to sell your books and movies and TV.  And when I say "genre media" has been doing these things, I actually am specifically referring to Marvel comics and studios for a notable chunk of these instances.

When you combine those instances with the state of the world where Nazism has been regaining traction with the 'chans and redditors and within the White House itself, with Holocaust denialism and Jewish defamation being a regular fixture of the news cycle...it's no wonder that members of the Jewish community and blogosphere has been feeling disenfranchised by a lot of the old entities and structures that had seemed like they should be able to count on as a matter of course. That includes the government, that includes our fellow citizens, and it also includes the media.

(sidebar, I am not Jewish, I just enjoy their comics!)

That's what readers mean when they say this feels like the worst sort of climate for a story that reveals and is marketed on the premise that Captain America was secretly a Nazi all along. It's not that people don't want the current political climate to be examined and lampshaded in media, it's that this specific method of examination comes across scarily comparable to all the antisemitic media and rhetoric that's been released throughout the years which has led us to this current political climate in the first place. It's the media-slash-rhetoric where Jewish (and other) characters have their origins retconned and whitewashed into homogeneity, where pontificating supervillains are just misunderstood revolutionaries who might have a point or something, where fascist police-states are shock value tropes to engender hype and interest amongst audiences.

Spencer's argument is that this story, which depicts a universe where the fascists win, is intended to incite discourse and criticism against such a universe. Hydra are still clearly the bad guys of the story, we're obviously intended to want to see them lose, of course they're going to lose by the end. But the way that the story has been constructed up to this point exhibits a lot of the same signatures of various antisemitic story beats we've had throughout the years. Captain America being retconned from a stalwart defender of Jewish people into being a Nazi agent, for instance, evokes Wanda and Pietro Maximoff being changed from prominent Jewish-Romani superheroes into whitewashed Hydra recruits on the big screen...and there was certainly no secret message or hidden allegory behind the Maximoffs' change; all it was was offensive and tone-deaf and that was it.

For another instance, Nazi Steve delivering issues-long sermons about how the heroes of this world have gotten complacent and misguided and that the world needs someone willing to make the tough choices, to do what it takes to protect it, is reminiscent of Tony Stark and Carol Danvers making fascism-apologia for months on end throughout the two Civil War event comics, like, hey maybe these guys playing the hardball roles have a point right? Hey aren't we so hardcore and edgy for tackling the hardcore and edgy topics?  CHOOSE YOUR SIDE!...and in the end this fascism-apologia is just played completely straight, no hidden critique, no last-minute swerve, just Marvel turning its heroes into borderline supervillains and that was the end of the story. But hey, this story here and now will be totally different from that! Becuuuz...for some reason.

To be direct about his: This isn’t our first rodeo, Marvel Comics.  Let’s not pretend that Marvel...and DC, let’s be fair...haven't in fact made a lot of legitimately terrible in-canon offensive character assassinations of iconic characters and that it's not that unreasonable to be afraid of it happening again at any given point.  Let’s not pretend that Marvel hasn’t done a lot of those things for the specific reason of angering readers and then feeding off of that anger and attention.

At the very least, there's been this weird romanticizing of Hydra Cap from Spencer in what I've read of these books so far; it doesn’t exactly refute the premise that Steve being Hydra is bad, but Steve is still the protagonist of these books no matter how brainwashed he is, so these issues seem to have come across less like "Our heroes have to prevail against this nefarious schemer and his nefarious schemes!" and more like "Watch in wonder as this shadowy agent prevails against all the clueless establishment and does badass things throughout his mission!" It falls into the "cool Nazi" trend where it's like, of course we're consciously aware that he's the bad guy here, but isn't he so edgy and hardcore and badass anyway? I haven't read as many issues of Hydra Cap as Spencer would probably like so, I dunno, let me know if I'm way off here.

So, to summarize...well, not summarize exactly, but to organize these points, lets’ do a list.  Everyone likes lists, right?

1) Showing the "bad guys" losing in, like, probably the very last issue of this year long storyline (which also included the main Captain America book which led up to the actual event) doesn't suddenly omit all those issues where the "bad guys" were shown being edgy and hardcore and badass and smart and powerful and pulling one over on all those dense clueless liberal "good guys," except in this case the bad guys are people who directly abetted in the Holocaust and not the guys who stole forty cakes.

2) This is during a time in the world where antisemitic rhetoric is seeing a startling resurgence -- or maybe just coming back into the light again after hiding away for a bit -- and Holocaust denialism, vandalism of public Jewish spaces, and outright physical violence being more and more common occurrences.

3) Readers in general have been consistently burned by Marvel's consistently tone-deaf depictions of moral or social narratives throughout their events (Civil War: police states are great!) (Civil War II: police states are great!) (IvX: Cyclops is goddamn HITLER for some reason). Jewish readers, in particular, have good reason to not to trust Marvel to be respectful and tactful of their issues. Any such complaints or concerns have been responded to with derision or misunderstanding on Spencer's part, which only makes everyone angrier and more wary.

4) Indeed, Marvel and Spencer's go-to insistence that Hydra are totally not Nazis at all and you're just being nitpicky if you say they're Nazis just further makes them come across as tone-deaf and bullish on the matter, on top of (probably unknowingly, if I’m feeling generous) mirroring the talking points of actual real life Nazis, who've been trying to rebrand themselves as something different for years in order to come across more fluffy and palatable to mainstream sensibilities.

5) I mean there's also the fact that Hydra is -- as currently depicted in this very event by the very writer who keeps saying they're not Nazis on Twitter -- a completely fascistic political regime that stifles free thought and rewrites history through fear, violence, and propaganda and oh hey did someone mention concentration camps? ‘Cuz there are concentration camps in this book.  Hydra is functionally indistinguishable from Nazis in this actual book. This is not a book about Captain America being brainwashed by Saturnians to plant death lasers on the moon, this is a book about Captain America being a Nazi and doing things associated with Nazis in absolutely every respect.  But sure let’s get comic shop owners to dress up like them and stuff

6) "I don’t care if this gets undone next year, next month, next week. I know it’s clickbait disguised as storytelling. I am not angry because omg how dare you ruin Steve Rogers forever. I am angry because how dare you use eleven million deaths as clickbait." Copypasted directly, because how can you get clearer than that.

7) Spencer's work with Sam Wilson Captain America, which generally turns him into a centrist apologist at best who couldn't believe that he himself was ever that much of an annoying liberal activist or something and occasionally fights literal "social justice warriors" on college campuses throwing bombs and internet slang, isn’t a particularly encouraging thing to have hanging on the back of your mind while reading this story about how Steve Rogers was actually a Nazi all along. 8) In a world where an X-Men artist is literally sneaking secret antisemitic propaganda into books that are supposed to celebrate diversity and civil activism, can you really blame people for being antsy about a comic book that is making members of Stormfront cream themselves by revealing that Steve Rogers was a secret Nazi all along?

So yeah, I dunno if I have any great point to make with any of this.  I just felt like collating all the outrage and shedding a little light on how the situation comes across to me.  Secret Empire isn’t exactly the sort of clear-cut idiocy where, y’know, some dense writer fridged yet another female character or replaced yet another hero of color with his white predecessor from forty years ago.  Its problems are a bit more intricate, which means the blowback is a bit more intricate as well.

#Captain America #Secret Empire #Nick Spencer #Marvel Comics #Marvel #Steve Rogers #Hydra #Nazis #comics #Overthinking