#he probably is in some capacity playing (or will eventually play) the TVA

[wrenhyperfixates]

"the show is retconning all of thor 2011 and pretending loki just always wanted the throne to have power and that he hurts ppl bc he feels weak so he wants to attack them to make himself feel stronger. ignoring all the suffering he went thru and the internalized racism and the mind control. I think the Asgard scene are probably going to be so he can go back and show his younger self as bad and maybe also apologize to his mom eve tho she gaslighted and lied to him" maybe not i think loki is playing the TVA

Hmm I assume you’re quoting someone on another post. And, yes, I’d have to disagree with them too. I think him calling himself weak is actually in character. He’s living in Thor’s shadow his whole life; he has self esteem issues for sure. And like I said before, he’s feeling hopeless at this point. So, with nothing left to lose, he drops the villain facade. Because he was going with that while at the TVA. I mean, look at his interaction with Casey: his thought is “I’m a villain, I have to threaten him.” You can even see him dropping that when Casey doesn’t know what a fish is. He says it too: “A villain.” This is who he thinks he is because of what other have told him; he can’t even see how good he is anymore.

#so not ooc #he’s just not confident anymore #so he’s trying to fill the role others have assigned him #this is largely a theme in the show #both with the TVA controlling everyone #and Loki learning he can be who he wants #he probably is in some capacity playing (or will eventually play) the TVA #the loki show #the loki show spoilers #anon #anon ask #ask #loki analysis

[iamanartichoke]

Why would Loki believe what Mobius tells or shows him? Frigga's death-film could be faked, Loki's responsibility for it might false, saying he always fails and causes death etc. ... where's the proof? Yes, the segments were selected to manipulate his emotions and align him with the TVA, and there's self-loathing, but he's also supposed to be smart and familiar with how lies work. Maybe he's playing along to escape and do what every Loki who ever existed and created a variant did: what he wants.

[please blacklist spoiler tags: #loki tv series spoilers, #loki series spoilers, #loki spoilers]

Well, here's the thing.

(under the cut for spoilers + length)

Objectively, I agree with you - that is, I fully recognize and agree with the characterization of Loki being intelligent and also manipulative (and therefore more than familiar with the art of lying), and I agree that it would be really, really hard to manipulate Loki without him realizing what you're doing and figuring out how to counter it and manipulate you in return (and you won't figure it out as quickly).

However. I don't think Loki is impossible to manipulate, or that his intelligence and innate capacity to lie (often and well) mean that he's immune to falling prey to someone else's schemes, when those schemes are rooted in/relying on all of the rawest vulnerabilities that Loki, as a person, possesses.

Loki's tragic flaw (or one of them, in my opinion) is that his emotions can and often do get the better of him because they are the result of how thoroughly and bone-deeply he hates himself. In Thor 2011, for example, Loki's initial plan evolves from trying to delay Thor's coronation into trying to simultaneously destroy Asgard's greatest enemy (and, presumably, destroy the monster within himself) and trying to prove his worth as a prince and a son to Odin. Were his plan to succeed, the only thing he would ultimately gain is validation that he has equal value to Thor. (Certainly he knows that Odin will wake up and Thor will eventually return; like, there are no long-term goals for keeping the throne here.)

Point being, everything he's orchestrating becomes motivated by emotion over logic and, ultimately, he doesn't really lose so much as he gives up because Odin rejects his plan - and, therefore, rejects Loki - and it hurts him so badly that he attempts to kill himself. He literally can't live with the pain it causes him.

So, I mean, we already know that Loki is deeply emotional and immensely insecure. We know that he's felt inferior and out of place his entire life, only to have those feelings validated by the revelation of his being Jotun and the rejection of his effort to prove himself as worthy as Thor.

We also know that a literally suicidal Loki ended up going through an extremely traumatic experience with Thanos and, furthermore, he has now failed pretty majorly in "taking over" Earth. Loki's in bad mental shape and, I mean, there's his proof right there that Mobius is right and that he always fails and causes death. He failed in Thor 2011 (and caused death). He failed in Avengers (and caused death). He believes himself to be worthless, deserving of rejection; he is emotionally unstable and has untapped reservoirs of pain under the surface.

He is, in other words, in an absolutely ideal place to be manipulated by Mobius. He doesn't seem to believe what Mobius tells or shows him at first - asking where Frigga is being kept, not believing the events that haven't happened to him yet, arguing back against every point Mobius makes, etc. But, as the scene wears on, you can tell he's becoming less and less sure that it's a falsity and more and more uncomfortable and upset because Mobius is unrelentingly digging at everything Loki's ever feared about himself.

That's the state Loki's in when Mobius selectively shows him the most painful scenes from his future.

Not to diagnose Loki, bc I am not qualified to do so, but to project a little bit - as an emotionally unstable person myself, who has struggled with mental health for as long as I can remember, I can very easily see how Loki would believe Mobius at that point.

It's like, imagine that you have all of these fears about yourself and they color the lens through which you view the world. I mean, Loki's experiences have definitely contributed to his poor self worth, and his family and culture have fucked him up - no imagined slights here - but when you hate yourself enough, it can alter how you perceive every little thing.

You may blame yourself a little harder for things that aren't your fault. You may too quickly assume that someone else thinks the worst of you when they may not think anything in particular about you at all. You may feel completely and utterly alone and hopeless about that ever changing because why would anyone want ever want to love someone as worthless as you?

Now imagine you've done some really bad things and, deep down, you feel guilty about them. You didn't enjoy doing them, but you did enjoy how powerful they made you feel, and that makes you a bad person, too. You weren't even wanted as a baby, for fuck's sake; you were literally abandoned for no discernable reason besides possibly being a runt, aka being born wrong.

These are all things you feel, and then here comes this person who is showing you events that have happened that he shouldn't know about, he's telling you information about yourself that he shouldn't have, he's showing you that he's got the resources to figure you and your life out and then he tells you to your face - while showing you even more failure and death in your future - oh hey, everything that you fear and everything that you feel? Yeah, that's all valid. You are irredeemable. You are responsible for death and destruction. You are unwanted, both by your family and by existence itself. You're only here so that others can have someone to stand on while they climb to the top. You killed your own mother because you're so selfish and vengeful! God, how do you even live with yourself, you destructive waste of space?

I mean, again, call me biased and paint me as projecting my mental illnesses on Loki but if it were me, no amount of intelligence or experience with lies would be enough to not believe every single word Mobius said about me (and about the situation).

It's certainly possible that Loki is playing along to escape; I mean, we know that he does eventually escape, though whether he gets captured again or not remains to be seen. But I think that, at the conclusion of the episode, Loki has just been broken down enough by everything he went through that day (it was a really rough day for Loki) that he's like, yknow what, just - okay, fine, tell me what I have to do bc I'm all outta options here.

(Actually, to be completely honest, I think there's both going on - Loki is resigned to being stuck with the TVA but also he probably recognizes that, at some point, he's going to get the opportunity to escape and might as well play nice until it comes along.)

So, yeah - I completely buy how that scene went down in regards to Loki believing Mobius.

#thank you for the ask! #asks #charlotte replies #loki tv series spoilers #loki series spoilers #loki spoilers #loki pokey artichokey #i will never be over loki #mobius dick #tw mental health #tw suicide attempt mention #tw suicidal ideation #tw depression #tw gaslighting #tw psychological abuse