#greek mythology has enough r*pe myths

[khaire-traveler]

please go off about the Zeus hate in the wider community some time because I would love to have this conversation

Oh gods, I'm not sure if you know what you're asking for lol. I could go on for a long time about it, for a variety of reasons.

(I can't add a cut because this is so far down in my drafts that I don't think I'll be able to find it again, even if I tried, so for those uninterested, I just recommend scrolling past this. I'm sorry. 💀)

***TW: MENTIONS OF SA, R*PE, AB*SE, AND OTHER SENSITIVE TOPICS***

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Where to even begin? There are so many faults and flaws within the argument that Zeus is just generally a "bad person". That's the argument I see most often, anyway.

I guess to start, I'll just get right into the controversial stuff: Zeus and sexual assault/rape. I'll start with me personal experience, as an assault and sexual abuse survivor. I can guarantee you that if I felt Zeus was a r*pist or an assaulter, I would not be worshipping him, personally. It would make me wildly uncomfortable, and I feel like it would seriously taint my view of him. So, when people claim that Zeus is a r*pist, or otherwise, I think it's important to acknowledge that you are talking about mythology. Just as the Christian Bible has been heavily influenced by the opinions and thoughts of its writers, Greek mythology works similarly. The surviving stories that was have were written by people who lived in a VERY different society than our modern one. Not only is mythos not meant to be taken literally (unlike Christianity, which is very mythos literal, most of the time), but Greek myths were often very metaphorical or served the main purpose of explaining an natural phenomena. It was also heavily influenced by the culture, at the time, so to understand why so many Greek myths discuss sexual assault, r*pe, and the like, you really need to take a hardcore look at the culture behind the myths. In not doing so, you make yourself look like an uneducated fool, honestly.

And I don't know how many times this had to be fucking said, but the gods are not their myths. Instead of making all these assumptions about them, maybe just, I don't know, talk to them yourself? Maybe do your own research into the behind the scenes of the stories they were featured in? Maybe stop taking mythos so damn literally? Like, even at the time, there has been some talk of historians believing that the ancient Greeks themselves didn't take mythos literally and interpreted the stories more as lessons to be learned. It's kind of obvious that many of these very impossible stories are most likely not what literally happened and are more metaphorical or sometimes even entertaining. The idea of mythic literalism feels like something that is very Christian - although I could be wrong, so do not take my opinion at face value - and frankly, Hellenic religion is not Christianity, it came before Christianity. Taking these myths of Zeus and interpreting them so literally does nothing but harm you as a worshipper and hinder your growth as a Polytheist, in my opinion. Plus, it makes you look bad. Why shit on an entire pantheon of gods? It's just dumb and disrespectful, even outside of mythic literalism stuff.

Another thing: cancel culture is heavily influencing this Zeus debate, in my opinion. People feel the need to "cancel" thousand year old deities who stem from cultures that were vastly different from ours - like, do they not realize how they sound? First of all, that shit was from thousands of years ago; do you not think that the gods have changed since then? Do you not think that they adapt to human culture as it grows and changes? Like, what? Second of all, cancelling gods from a literal ancient civilization is just plain ridiculous and very ahistorical, in my opinion. For real, I cannot stress enough that ancient Greece has a vastly different culture from our own. Shit was genuinely VERY different back then, and topics we now recognize as fucked up we're not recognized as such, back then. And there is nothing you, or anyone else can do, to go back in time and magically change the ancient Greek culture as a whole, so what's even the point of "calling out" this supposed behavior of Zeus? What's the point if he is very different now and interacts very differently with humans? What's the point if you are pulling your "evidence" from stories meant to be largely fictional? Like??? What exactly do you hope to accomplish by shitting on the King of the Gods in modern times with a very different cultural viewpoint? Tell me what you're hoping to achieve. Tell me why you're projecting all of this hatred towards Zeus, a literal fucking GOD, about fictional stories. Go ahead, I'm curious.

Along with all that, it's SO important to consider how Zeus was viewed in ancient times. It's not as though people saw him as a playboy and were like, "Ew, don't worship that god, he's doing all these bad things, blah blah blah." No, Zeus was actually HIGHLY respected. He was considered the King of the Gods, King of Olympus. He was worshipped for SO many different aspects of his and was extremely popular. He represented all kings, in a way, and was on top of everyone, in regards to hierarchical status. He was literally even considered to be the most powerful of all the gods, even instilling fear into the other gods with how strong he was! Like, Zeus wasn't someone to fuck around with or to criticize. I cannot emphasize enough how wildly disrespectful it is to call him shit like a r*pist (again, based on fucking fictional stories, y'all) - this literal King of Kings and God of All. He is ZEUS. He's not some celebrity that got into a scandal and deserves to be called out for their shitty actions. He is fucking ZEUS, people.

Honestly, my anger is very muted, on this topic. I have a lot of just "I'm so done with this debate" energy. Like, personally, I don't know how Zeus can be so patient with these people, especially after such a long time of them bashing him publicly for no good reason, treating him as though he's some celebrity or something that needs to learn his lesson. Human morality cannot be applied to non-human gods. It just can't. That's simply not how it works. They are not human, and I feel like it's very easy for people to forget that, especially when it comes to debates like these. Zeus - not a human, Apollo - not a human, Hermes - not a human. They are gods. Literal gods. Maybe instead of shitting on gods due to their mythical stories people should be focusing on the humans in today's world that are chasing actual harm - current harm, even. Because frankly, there are more important things to focus on.

I literally love Zeus. He is a fantastic god who literally helped me escape from a wildly abusive person. He is the reason I got out of that situation unharmed spiritually. Zeus is not some cruel god who doesn't give a shit about how other people feel. He is a kind, considerate, and thoughtful leader who holds much wisdom and knowledge from his thousands upon thousands of years reigning as King of the Gods and Olympus. He is not indifferent or disrespectful. He is not cocky or rude. And even with the flaws he may have (since everyone makes mistakes), he is still a god who deserves worship, praise, and acknowledgement for his great deeds. There is SO much Zeus does for humanity, outside of just lightning bolts and weather, and I'm just so exhausted from people who refuse to acknowledge that. Zeus is a damn blessing. He is a fucking King. He deserves respect.

That's all I've got to say for now. I'm not much of an angry person, so it takes a lot of energy for me to be mad about something. Thank you for letting me rant. May Zeus be with you, if you so wish. 💜⚡

#asks #answered asks #zeus haters dni

[priestessofcreation]

You all know I am a supporter of Persephone being a goddess who can make her own decisions.

But there are, of course, traditionalists who remind us of the original myth and though I personally prefer the modernized interpretations, the original of course has to be honored and respected.

So… here I go.

Persephone was a victim in the original myth. She was kidnapped by Hades without Demeter’s consent and she wilted and weakened in the underworld until her mother’s massive love and power forced Zeus to go back on his consent of the marriage. However, Hades manipulated Persephone at the last second with a pomegranate, preying off her hunger as she did not consume any food in the underworld up to this point. Persephone ate only the seeds - 1, 4, or 6 - but it was enough to keep her in the underworld for part of the year.

And so, this was her ultimate fate - part of the year with her mother and part of the year with her husband.

No longer Kore, the Maiden.

But Persephone, Bringer of Darkness.

When it comes to this version of the story… at least in the beginning, Persephone had no say in anything. Zeus consented to the marriage on her behalf, Hades took her in the underworld without her consent or knowledge of the arrangement, and Demeter brought her back to the world above.

There are definite retellings where Persephone is thrilled when she realizes she finds out she gets to leave.

Persephone was also written as a vegetation goddess like her mother, which means the deathly realm would make her weak.

There is the definite mention of SA in her story at the hands of Hades. Literally the title of the myth is: “The R*pe of Persephone.”

This could have been actual SA, meaning Hades had his way with her and forced her to be his queen without any consent from her. Meaning, she was quite literally a prisoner. It can be said that Hades was not well-liked in Greece. Actually, he was feared and people avoided saying his name except around issues of the dead. However, there is almost no other mention of Hades behaving in such a shitty way in Hellenic Greek mythology.

And apparently they had the healthiest marriage in the pantheon.

Which brings me to my other interpretation: The “rape” was the loss of her girlhood. Virginhood. Innocence. She was pure and sweet and dutiful and she loved her mother so much. Her initial name - Kore - literally means “maiden.”

The juice of a pomegranate is red, runny. And is very bloody. It can stain your hands, your clothes, and is very hard to wash out of fabric. She ate the pomegranate to represent her being bound to the realm that victimized her.

This could be a metaphor for her period OR the way you can bleed when you lose your virginity.

That loss of purity was a big deal in Greece. The goddesses either had to be sworn virgins or had to get married. Zeus did consent to the marriage with Persephone and Hades. And technically, Demeter did not have the power to accept or deny the arrangement, as a woman.

However… Demeter’s part of the myth was actually unique. She was given ABSOLUTE compassion in her myth, even though she was defying the rules of the patriarchal society of Ancient Greece. The story seems to be written to show the power of the love of this great mother. Nothing “wrong” happened here based off of standards of the era in terms of marriage.

Yet, Demeter still lost her shit but was not frowned upon, but was given great compassion for her grief.

This could show a brief change in the status-quo.

Zeus consented to the marriage.

So?

That seems to be the answer of the people who came up with the story. And the people who primarily worshipped Demeter were uneducated, farming communities. It’s almost like these people DID NOT GIVE A SHIT about the traditions established by the educated governing classes.

They just want their goddess to be alright. SHOWING a sense of awareness about the wrongs of the culture.

The rest of the gods were far away up in Olympus but Demeter was down here with the people.

Demeter helped the farming classes, and her daughter was raised in that life. They loved Kore as much as they loved her mother. They knew how close they were. So they probably understood that Kore was not okay being separated from her mother who she loved so much. Kore was always happy and now she had been brought into the realm that the general Greek person avoided talking about unless they had to.

And apparently when Kore was returned as Persephone, she always had a melancholic demeanor going forward.

Yet, she is the Goddess of Spring. A season of hope, healing, and rebirth.

We can all agree that Persephone is a spirit of duality.

I don’t know what really happened to her. But we can all agree that whatever she went through, it was A LOT and it changed her forever.

#persephone #beauty in her duality #scholarship #greek mythology #magic #spirituality #I just really don’t like the idea of her just being a victim #tw sa mention #tw sa

[antiloreolympus]

7 Anti LO Asks

1. I generally like LO, since it's one of the rare medias that don't turn Hades(canonically one of the very few gods who actually does his job and isn't shitting on humans for petty reasons) into an evil overlord like Hollywood keeps portraying him but something I didn't get was why they had to choose a r@pe route for Perse. If people actually did research, the definition of rape during the early Greek was synonymous with kidnap. And in other versions, she literally just walked in accidentally in the underworld, liked it, and said "this place is mine now too". Honestly second sounded more badass. I didn't get why there had to be r@pe involved.

2. I know it's a very different thing but... even characters from a children's TV show are better written than the ones in LO. I really feel like even Fluttercord (Fluttershy X Discord) or AppleDash (Applejack x Rainbow Dash) are better written than LO Persades. At least, they had a much more believable build up.

Discord (who is a literal God of Chaos) got called out for actions and actually became a better person while Hades didn't even try.

I'm just saying Fluttercord had a much believable slow burn romance than LO Persades. They were even enemies the first time they met. Discord got called out and defeated (because of the ✨Power of Friendship✨) but Fluttershy was the first person to genuinely give him a chance when they figured out that there is a chance he might become a better person.

Fluttershy and Discord are two very different people but it even became one of the many reasons they're such good friends while Persephone and Hades don't even have that much good reasons for liking each other, other than “hurr durr sexyyyyy” or “mommy issues” or “her butt looks like an upside down heart”. Persephone at least had the therapy but Hades just stopped going to therapy because... reasons...

3. Adding my two cents as someone with clinically diagnosed and treated BPD. If all the gods are flexing getting their therapy on, why would Minthe not be entitled to the same healing? Underworld DBT, people. But Rachel had an agenda for her from day one, Animal Farm style... underprivileged nymph bad, hyperprivileged civil war criminal goddess GOOD. You can’t just scapegoat a mentally ill woman and the personality disorder that likely numerous of your readers share especially1/2

2/2 when the fuckboy in blue has already proven himself capable of carting his partner of the week to and from their chosen route of therapy. Minthe deserved better and certainly wanted to get there.

4. "the designs and stories of marvel have become ubiquitous" they really havent? god of war is a massive video game series and covered norse myth just fine w/o marvel fans saying it ripped it off. percy jackson also covered norse myth in the magnus series and no one said it was "stealing" from marvel. i think smythe is just lowkey (hehe) admitting shes not creative enough to not just leech off marvel for stories/designs like she already did to disney for greek myth, which egyptian myth doesnt have

5. love how rachel told us gaia was used and overpowered by ouranos. you know, gaia, who made a sickle out of nothing and told her sons to kill him and who later birthed some of the scariest monsters in mythology and who even zeus was scared to mess with. that gaia, who very much did not have her powers ripped away from her, who defeated ouranos by her will, and who was feared and respected. jfc rachel, you even depowered the mother to creation and the earth itself? but persephone is the OP one? 😑

6. i recently looked over a bunch of panels from lo (i havent in a while- i mainly see the ones that get passed around) and oh god the women in this comic... their poor spines.... the back pain half the female characters should be in all the goddamn time...

7. am i the only one who read the variants of the minthe myth and saw her as the victim instead? hubris was obvs seen as bad in myth, but the gods' wrath punishing them also wasnt seen as good either. case in point, hades felt so bad about minthe's death (?) in myth that he made mint his sacred plant. he clearly regretted his actions leading to her demise. how does rachael view a nymph being harmed by a powerful godess queen and see the weaker party as the real villain? thats just insane to me.

#anti lo #anti lore olympus #lo critical #lore olympus critical #anti lo art

[pansexualandscared]

Jordan’s Hadestown/Greek Mythology ramblings part 6/?   (tw mention of r*pe)

Ok, so this is gonna be a far stretch but hear me out. So I was watching Overly Sarcastic Productions just now and- actually, wait. If you haven’t watched any of their videos go do that now. Go on. I’ll wait. 

You’re back? Great. Anyway, I innocently clicked on the Dionysus video not knowing that it would subsequently change my life forever. So Red was talking about Dionysus (obviously) and then (she? he? they? I’m not sure) mentioned a story about Dionysus where he gets kidnapped by pirates and escapes by filling the ship with vines and the sound of flutes and scaring the pirates so much that they all jump overboard. Red then started talking about why Dionysus has plant magic in the first place. Apparently, in some of his origin stories, Dionysus was the child of Hades and Persephone (or Zeus and Persephone, but that raises questions of r*pe and I’m not mentally stable enough to talk about that right now) and was raised in the underworld. This is especially prominent in versions of the myth from Orphic religions (basically when you boil it down, the religion worships people who got out of the underworld alive. I know, trust me, I was highkey freaking out as well) anyway, it’s kind of obvious why Persephone would be connected to this. But, that’s one of the explanations as to why Dionysus has plant magic in some stories. So I was thinking, where did Dionysus get his whole God-Of-Wine schtick from? And I realized, from Persephone. Which, subsequently (can you tell I really like that word?) makes you realize that there’s a fully formed reason Seph becomes an alcoholic. Not only is it numbing, but it’s always just at her fingertips. She has no problem getting wine because she can always just, conjure it. Also, yes I am very much aware of how far fetched this is but I fully can’t help myself so... 

#Hadestown #persephone #hades #dionysus #Amber Gray #overly sarcastic productions #god of wine #spring #seriously you should watch it #this is dumb but i don't care