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gffa · 8 months

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Hi Lumi. This year I’ve watched The Clone Wars, Rebels, Mandalorian, Book of Boba Fett, and Tales of the Jedi and I’m watching Ahsoka as episodes are released. But I feel like I’m missing some context as to why people are wary of Filoni. What things should I know so I’m caught up, so to speak, in the fandom discussions?

Hi! That's a lot of Star Wars to watch in a year, I hope you're having fun with it all! And I will gently remind everyone that Filoni is not the be-all-end-all of Star Wars creators--Henry Gilroy was there for TCW and Rebels, too. George Lucas was holding writers' meetings years after the show started (at least into 2010!). The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett are far more Jon Favreau's shows. The Bad Batch is Brad Rau and Jennifer Corbett. Resistance was developed by him, but was run by other producers. It's just that Filoni tends to get the most camera time and has become the face of Star Wars creators. That said, the issue with Filoni is kind of two-pronged, though, they overlap. 1. He's done a lot of interviews where he's said a lot of anti-Jedi things that have drifted from reasonable critiques in the beginning to eventually "Qui-Gon Jinn was the only true Jedi. [blatantly wrong citations]" This has put a lot of people off him as a creator, because we love the Jedi Order that Lucas talks about and established, which Filoni has actively contradicted over the years, despite being promoted as someone who follows Lucas' themes. And it's hard not to be aware of his interviews when watching his shows and it's hard to enjoy shows that do your faves dirty, you know? 2. His writing has become weaker over the years for a lot of us--Rebels is a show most of us love and found to be incredible. Many of us really love The Clone Wars, which he was heavily involved in/was probably the central voice after Lucas started phasing out. But his biggest story told over the course of those series--basically, the story of Mandalore's history and fall to the Empire--has been extremely thin for a lot of us. And a lot of us get frustrated at his inability to be objective when it comes to Ahsoka's character, that we love her as a character very much, but it hasn't felt like Filoni really knows what to do with her character arc and yet almost everything he writes is centered around her. His final season of The Clone Wars? Gave her the walkabout arc and the Siege of Mandalore arc, both of which often did not hold up well under scrutiny. His episode of The Book of Boba Fett? I actually really loved it, but it absolutely just stopped the pacing of that show to focus a lot on her. More on Luke, but he couldn't resist putting her in there, either. Tales of the Jedi was half devoted to Ahsoka and so much of it wasn't even about her time as a Jedi! We're frustrated because he doesn't set things up well anymore--Morgan Elsbeth is a Nightsister?? Why wasn't that established in The Mandalorian instead of pulling out randomly in Ahsoka? Why does Sabine Wren suddenly so badly want Jedi training, when they barely even had a conversation in Rebels?? There's a lot of good that Filoni has given to Star Wars, I think he genuinely cares about the Force and what it means--he's very consistent on how it's not easy and how it takes discipline and control, that he has been consistent on how anger and fear are paths to the dark side, even his episode of TBOBF had Ahsoka saying, yeah, attachment is a path to the dark side, because the Jedi mean "attachment" in a more Buddhist-aligned way. A lot of his writing for the character of Ahsoka is actually pretty good, like I've been enjoying her being a prickly, traumatized hot mess in the show! It's just that I kind of hate all the interviews he gives and I think he's a lot less objective than a lot of fans and media coverage that would hold him up as a perfect writer/interviewee about all things Star Wars, and it all comes together to make him kind of a hot-button topic.

So, a lot of people LOVE Filoni's work, a lot of people are frustrated by it, a lot of people are casually fine about it, a lot of people HATE Filoni's work and it can be a fun mix of any of the above or even other issues that come up. (And that's all fine! I have my views on Filoni's work, but it's fine if others hate it more than I do or love it more than I do, there's room for us all, all of it is valid.)

But I think if you want to understand some of the roots of this corner of fandom's frustration, two (admittedly long as heck) homework assignment reads would be:

- My own rebuttal to Dave's behind the scenes Mandalorian Gallery talk (this is jokingly referred to as "Davegate" because I refused to take it too seriously) - @david-talks-sw's collection of comparisons between Lucas' commentary on the Jedi and Filoni's commentary on the Jedi

This response itself is more focused on laying out the problems a lot of people have with Filoni's writing, but also honestly I still have my giant collection of Jedi source material citations that quotes his commentary, I still bring up Filoni's quotes in current meta a lot, I still talk positively about the things I enjoy from his shows, so overall there's equal amounts of both praise and criticism here. So, as short as I can make it (which isn't very, shut up, I know! XD), that's basically what people mean when they say they're wary of Filoni.

#star wars #dave filoni #meta

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decafgrace · 2 months

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Let’s not shame movie fans.

A rant

I’ve been seeing lots of new fans of Dune watching the movies for the first time, and talking about the twists or honestly just how much they enjoyed the movie, or like “wow I didn’t expect xyz to happen!”. And then the comment section will be like “*sigh* how did you not see that coming, the book’s been out since 1965. You must be stupid, pick up a book you idiot” and things similar to that. (Tbh I’ve seen this more on twt and tik tok than here but I’m too scared to rant about it there rn so).

As someone who read the books BEFORE both movies were out, how about instead of *shaming* people who haven’t read the books yet, we *encourage* people to read them? I understand taking book fans “more seriously” and joking about movie fans (that isn’t unique to the Dune fandom at all and has been happening for years) but some of these comments are actually so mean about it. How about instead of commenting “book’s been out since 1965” (especially to young people. Like I read it back in 2018 when I was a teen, sorry I wasn’t a fan pre-conception when the book was first released 🤪) we say “If you like the movie, the book is ever better! You should read it!”.

I know that Dune has always been revered in the sci fi world. I think us sci-fi fans forget though that Dune pre-new movies was still a relatively niche thing in terms of mainstream recognition (especially in comparison to Star Wars or Star Trek and things like that). I’m also sure that there are movies that YOU claim to like that you haven’t read the books for until the movies too (if you read the book at all). Howl’s Moving Castle, Goodfellas, Jaws, Schindler’s List, etc are all movies that were actually based on books that I’m sure people claim to be fans of despite not being an “og fan of the books” or even having read the source material ever.

Again, it’s fine to pressure people to read the book like every fandom does! But we don’t have to be a jerk about it or shame people for “discovering Dune for the first time”. Let’s get more people reading Dune!

I have lots of other thoughts about the Dune fandom that I’ve been holding in for a looooong time that are bubbling up again because of the pt. 2 release but I’ll save that for another time -

Rant over.

TLDR;

New fans: READ DUNE

Old fans: Let’s actually encourage reading :)

#dune part two #dune #dune part 2 #dune 2024 #paul atreides #chani dune #chani kynes #dune 2 #dune movie #dune series #paul and chani

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that-lazy-snail · 1 year

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Being a fan of Avatar (the movie with blue people) is literally the most exhausting fan experience I've ever had, and I'm a female Star Wars fan, who's favorite Star Wars movie is The Last Jedi.

I'm by no means claiming that the movie is flawless or even "great" but it is by scifi blockbuster standards pretty good. It's no more or less racist than the Star Wars prequels and the writing isn't any worse than the scriptwriting in the Star Wars prequels either, yet it's treated with such disdain among people on the internet that I can't even talk about it without receiving random hateful comments.

I cosplay from the movie, more specifically the new movie and an OC that I designed in 2018. I love the movie, especially the visual elements and the design of the Na'vi and their culture, I think it's a fascinating metaphor for our treatment of indigenous peoples and our planet, I love the themes the film presents. But I'm also aware that it's harmful to indigenous people as well because it promotes a white savior narrative, that it's harmful to disabled people by promoting the narrative that they can't live full lives unless they're normative. I don't deny those problems with the movie, and I have plenty of criticisms of the new film as well. Particularly the use of locks on Jake and Spider, and I saw a video on tiktok complaining about that and I left a comment saying that I really wish they hadn't done that and I thought it was a really poor styling choice since up until that point none of the Na'vi we'd seen have locks so it doesn't logically make sense to give them that hair style. I got quite a bit of response to that comment, some people agreeing with me but largely people were saying, "why do you cosplay it then?" "why do you support it then?" like is it not okay to like things and also have criticism for them? I'm allowed to like things about it and also not like things about it.

I also keep seeing videos saying that Avatar has no cultural impact, that it doesn't have a long lasting fan base despite having lore comparable to Lord of the Rings. Here's the thing with that, it totally does have lore comparable to Lord of the Rings but the fan base can't thrive like LOTR fans or even Star Trek could partially because the internet wasn't a space in the same way then as it was when Avatar came out and the other fact is the sheer amount of shaming and harassment that Avatar fans get. I've seen people leave the fandom because of the hate they received on the internet. They quite literally get bullied out of their enjoyment of the movie. People say that Avatar has no fans, but it's fans are chronically silent and reclusive in our liking of the film for fear of getting harassed. I am part of Facebook groups of that have thousands of members and a very active discord. Avatar fans exist, they just keep low and quiet so as to protect themselves. I know people who speak Na'vi in the same way people speak elvish or klingon, it's just not something we advertise because every time we try to share our enjoyment of the movie we get mean comments or mocking stitches/remixes of our videos, pictures, etc. It's not fun to be a public Avatar fan, it's scary and exhausting.

I love Avatar, Neytiri was one of the first truly strong and inspirational female characters I connected with as a child (I was 9 when the movie came out) and I was fascinated and enthralled with the world of Pandora, as were so many movie goers. I'm so tired of getting railed on for enjoying this movie, or even just the constant ridicule that comes through my feed about it. What happened to the golden rule of if you don't have anything nice to say (or on this case even anything that provides new/valuable commentary/criticism) don't say anything at all?

I'm so sick of hearing the same arguments I've heard a million times about why it's a retread plot of Pocahontas/Dances With Wolves/Ferngully, I've heard it all before, I've seen those movies before and their plots are in myths and any number of other stories, that's not why I love the movie. No amount of people saying that to me will change what I do like about the Avatar. I don't watch Avatar for the plot, I watch it for Pandora, and for the visual spectacle and the world building.

I'm sick of the argument that Avatar's treatment of indigenous voices is somehow worse than any other piece of media written by and for white communities, it's not. Even Avatar the Last Airbender (which is my favorite TV show of all time and is often acclaimed as a great example of native representation) also falls failure to the same mistake of casting white actors in POC roles and changing the narratives of natives to be more easily accepted and understood by white audiences. This is not to say that ATLA doesn't handle its message better than Avatar, but it's important to be aware of the ways in which all media has flaws, even the things we think are less problematic and it's important to acknowledge them and not tear the media down for it, but use it as means to make new media better. Cameron did improve with the Way of Water, he frequently consulted with the Maori tribes he was pulling inspiration from, there's literally articles written by Maori tribe members on it but it is still a white people movie, written by white people for white people so do with that what you will. But don't claim star wars is any better, the prequels were outrageously racist, and they still maintain majority white casts.

The new Avatar movie (the way of water) is not perfect, there are quite a few things I found to be poor choices in regards to cultural sensitivity (aka locks, and casting Kate Winslet as Ronal instead of a Polynesian actress) but it's still better than it's predecessor, and unlike so many people on the internet say, it is not "a bunch of white people playing poc" since neither Zoe Saldana, nor Trinity Jo-Li Bliss, or any of the Metkayina children or Cliff Curtis are white. In fact, Cliff Curtis is Maori, the culture that inspired the Metkayina and many of the extras who play background Na'vi in the films are POC, because in spite of James Cameron's failings, he did want the Na'vi to be played by people of color. Very very few of the Na'vi in the original movie are played by white people, only a few extras with less than 1 minute of screen time and no lines. All the major Na'vi roles were played by people of black and indigenous color. Eytukan was played by a Cherokee native, Mo'at (these people are the two clan leaders) is played by a indigenous woman from Africa and is very black. Zoe Saldana's parents are Dominican and Puerto Rican for god's sake! She is not white. This argument that he casts white people in POC roles is untrue. The Avatars are white cause they're meant to represent the invadors, wolf in sheep's clothing if you will. The Na'vi are bipoc, and they're played by bipoc.

After Avatar, James went to Brazil and became and activist for native communities. He went worked with Brazilian natives fighting the building of a dam over their local river, a dam with would power a major city in Brazil, but destroy the indigenous peoples access to water. He went to their community, and asked them what he could do to help. He donated money, protested, ran conferences and tried to disrupt the building of the dam using his influence, but it failed, and he had to watch the suffering of this indigenous tribe that he'd grown very close to in their time working together to prevent the dam. He's not Anti-indigenous as people love to claim, he's clumsy and arrogant (like all cis white men) but what he does is an attempt to elevate native voices not smother them even if he doesn't necessarily succeed.

The movie isn't the menace to society people portray it as, nor is it as boring or uncompelling as people claim. But I still can't go online to enjoy it because no matter what I say, I like it too much for "a bad movie" or I'm "too supportive of something harmful" although I still see people buying Harry Potter merchandise in the Barnes and Noble and I'd argue JK Rowling is an actively bigoted individual who's words and paychecks actively harm marginalized communities, unlike Cameron who despite his bumbling is trying his best and actually learning and doing better with the new content he puts out.

People also say things like, "You only like it cause you're white, no POC people like Avatar." which is blatantly untrue, I've seen native people who like it, black people who like it, I have black friends who like it, I know a black cosplayer who cosplays from it. In fact, I know more poc who cosplay from it than white people. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of the film, and should be allowed to interact with it without getting harassed. It's just exhausting to like it, so people don't say they do.

I'm tired of even the things that should be praised about the new film being used as a way to tear it down. Cameron said in an interview that he "likes Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman as characters but they're not mom's" when asked why he chose to make Neytiri a mother. Neytiri's motherhood doesn't detract from her warrior-ness, she's still a badass bitch and I think that's the point that this person on tiktok clearly missed. He wasn't saying you need women to be moms to be heros, but how many warrior women who are also mothers can you think of off the top of your head? I can't think of any. The choice to make Neytiri a badass mom wasn't to detract from single or childless female characters but to provide even more diversity in the kinds of strong female characters out there. I loved that 1/2 the cast of that movie was women, just as I loved Neytiri in the first film.

In conclusion, can we please stop making Avatar fans lives hell on the internet. I do my own research about how it is and isn't problematic and make my own decisions, I don't need strangers to yell at me. I just want to enjoy my silly ecoscifi movie about blue aliens. I'm aware of its issues and I do my best to raise awareness of the issues facing real natives, to engage with real native stories and voices and support their protests, legal persuits, tribal sovereignty, land back etc, and be the best ally I can be, but I'm not going to boycot this movie because it does some problematic stuff, or because it has an unoriginal plot, if I did that I could never watch another marvel movie again (and yes they're just as bad if you dig, look at the early ones especially) I'm so sick of the insane amount of factually unsupported hate this movie gets and of having to deal with it. I'm tired, I just want to enjoy my movie which is no worse than any other white backed and driven Hollywood blockbuster.

#avatar #avatar 2 #avatar the way of water #avatar 2009 #james cameron #avatar james cameron

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blueteller · 6 months

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Do you have more character analysis on og!Cale and how his relationships are with the other characters? Before and after transmigrating

Well, I'd love to, but..... here's the thing. For all the hype about OG Cale – and I'm definitely a member of that crowd, don't get me wrong – there isn't actualy... much about him. That is actually canon, I mean.

In fact, despite being one of the most popular characters in the fandom, OG Cale is only present in the novel for less than three full chapters in total (655-657), and all of them are spent mostly discussing how the war in the TBOAH timeline went down, not OG Cale's personal relationships.

Everything we know is all told through KRS!Cale perspective, who mostly just makes guesses and some pretty inaccurate assumptions. Sure, there was some stuff on how OG Cale treated his family in the TBOAH novels; but because "Nelan Barrow" did not really know the actual reason behind OG Cale choosing to act like trash... It's all extremely vague.

Nelan Barrow goes like: "OG Cale yelled at his servants yet never actually hit any of them, respected his father but kept distance from his family, and the closest person to a father figure he had was Ron Molan whom he treated like a human being". And that was basically everything, without any context added.

Ron had all of one flashback about OG Cale comforting his father after Jour's funeral. No explanation about Deruth's second marriage, about Basen – not even that they're not biologically related! OG Cale himself stated that "no matter how hard he tried to act like trash, they wouldn't kick him out", so that means the whole Henituse family did love OG Cale unconditionally. And also Ron and Beacrox were visibly quite tired of his nonsense by the time Cale transmigrated. But beyond that...

Well, to be fair, there were some minor characters sprinkled here and there who had a connection to OG Cale, before KRS!Cale got to meet them. There was Hans the butler, who was kind of scared of OG Cale... before he loosened up completely around KRS!Cale. And also there was the Eric Wheelsman, Gilbert Chetter and Amiru Ubarr trio; who were OG Cale's childhood friends because of their connection as North Eastern nobles. There was also the unnamed niece/OG Cale's reincarnated mom, and some Korean characters came up in the extras. They're all great characters, but... all of their relationships with OG Cale were exactly as one might expect: they're confused by OG Cale, yet overall like him (because for all the "trash personna" he did, OG Cale was never actually a bad person).

...Not much left to be said here.

And regarding the 20 years of war in the TBOAH timeline... OG Cale could be a biased narrator like Cale himself, but it sounded like he wasn't really anyone super important. He saw the confrontation between Choi Han and the White Star from the sidelines, not as someone close to the "main hero". He was just a soldier in the background of the battlefield. I doubt he talked to Choi Han even once.

Look, overall, most of OG Cale's relationships can be deduced or estimated from context – like the fact that despite his terrible reputation, no one who knew him actually hated him all that much – but in true canon, there's nothing much going on regarding his bonds with anyone aside his family. Yes, we can headcanon all kinds of drama based on Choi Han's violent actions in the beginning of TBOAH, followed by him leaving with both Ron and Beacrox without them saying goodbye to OG Cale... But that's all fan theories. In the TCF novel, OG Cale is a complete mystery for over 600 chapters.

...Which is probably why fans are so obsessed with him. Fleshing out OG Cale's character is super fun. No wonder there are so many Twin AUs, hahaha!

#tcf #trash of the count's family #lcf #lout of the count’s family #og cale #og cale henituse #original cale henituse #q&a #replies #tcf meta #character analysis #don't let the bazzillion fan aus fool you #og cale was actually a very obscure character in the novel #sure it's fun to speculate about him #but he really never showed up much aside from the backstory

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randombrambles · 7 months

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Okay...going to wade into the Sabezra discussion. May the flying spaghetti monster in sky have mercy on my soul...

I guess you could call me a "causal viewer" because, despite being a life long Star Wars fan, I'd never watched an episode of Rebels before watching Ahsoka. I just never got around to it and I've only watched a handful of eps of The Clone Wars too. But anyway once I started Ahsoka I was like "this show will clearly make more sense if I watch Rebels" so I started. I'm almost done season 3 of Rebels as of writing this post. And really loving Rebels btw. Part of me of like "why didn't I watch this earlier?" but on the other hand I don't have to wait for the next episode and I know the major spoilers already so I'm not going to get the rug yanked out from under me.

So back to Ahsoka and Sabezra...the big questions. Did I see the romance "coding" (not sure I agree "coding" is the right word but whatever, that's semantics) in Ahsoka? Yes. Sabine's actions definitely come across as her being in love with Ezra to me. That said I can also see the platonic angle, especially after having watched some of Rebels, so I'm not going to tell anyone they are wrong for viewing Sabine and Ezra's relationship as platonic. These things are subjective and open to interpretation until anything definitively romantic or definitively not romantic happens on screen. And at this point nothing definitive has happened either way on screen. Nobody has been proven right and nobody has been proven wrong yet. Sabezra is basically schrodinger's cat right now.

Next how did I interpret the "like a sister" line in Ezra's holo. Um...full disclosure the first time I viewed that scene I didn't even register that he'd said she was "like a sister" to him. I'd never even seen Rebels at that point so I didn't know Ezra yet. So as a causal viewer my take away from that scene was Ezra meant a lot to Sabine and Sabine meant a lot to Ezra. And I'd be wiling to bet that that was the takeaway for most causal viewers.

So on rewatch do I think the "like a sister" line means that Ezra truly sees Sabine as a sister? No. On rewatch, paying close attention to the body language, and after having watched some Rebels, I think Ezra is both struggling to find the words to tell Sabine how important she is to him and telling her what he thinks she needs to hear in that moment. The problem is that in English we don't have a word to describe someone isn't technically family but who isn't a lover either but who's also way more than "just" a friend. Sister is the best word Ezra can come up with in that moment but you can tell from his awkward body language and his literal scoff as soon as he says it that its not the right word. And yeah I think Ezra thinks that Sabine sees him as a brother so he tells her what he thinks she wants to hear right before he heads of on what very well could have been a suicide mission.

Do I think Sabezra is going to be made canon on Tuesday's final episode of Ahsoka (of season 1 at least). No, but hold on nobody panic!!! I also don't think that means Sabezra is dead in the water either. And frankly I'm kind of mystified as to why Sabezra shippers seem to think that the next episode is make or break for Sabezra when its clearly not? If there isn't a love declaration or a kiss or both (which is what I'm assuming people would interpret can them being made canon) its not like either Sabine or Ezra are going to marry someone else on Tuesday either. And since much of Ahsoka has been set up, meaning not much is actually going to get resolved in the next ep (Thrawn hasn't even left Perida[?] yet! I fear we are ending on a cliff hanger), we'll be seeing Sabine and Ezra again. There's no rush for them to get together romantically (and I know that's hard to hear for people who've been shipping for years but its true).

And further to the "there's no rush" point I actually have to say I that I think its WAY too soon for anything definitively romantic to happen between Ezra and Sabine yet (and again I get how hard that is for those who've been shipping them for a long time). And I say that as both a "casual viewer" and someone who's also watched a good chunk of Rebels now. For the causal viewer who hasn't watched Rebels, which is probably a big chunk of the audience for Ahsoka, they barely know Sabine, have just met Ezra and have only seen them interacting for ONE episode and don't know any of their history. A kiss or a love declaration would seem out of the blue at this point I think. And as someone who's getting into Rebels I still think its too soon. While I agree that Sabine is very likely in love with Ezra I don't think she's admitted to herself yet (that's why Baylan used the word family when he was getting her to hand over the map thingy imho) no way is she ready to tell HIM. And as for Ezra...dude is clueless that Sabine might might have non platonic feelings for him so no way is he going to risk ruining their friendship by blurting out that he's in love with her. And not only that they've been separated for 10 YEARS ffs. They need to get to know each other again before anything romantic can happen, again imho. I want Sabezra to become canon but I want it done WELL. Sabezra is a friends to lovers ship, they are still firmly in the friends stage right now, it needs to be a sloooooow burn.

And finally do I think Sabezra will become canon? Honestly...I don't know. I'd like it to, it would be really nice to have a non problematic ship, especially after the sequel trilogy robbed us of FinnRey and tried to force freaking r*ylo. But I think Filoni and the other powers that be over at DLF (he is NOT the sole person calling the shots here, keep that in mind everyone) are probably testing the waters right now and waiting to see what the audience reactions are like before they make any decisions. I'd be wiling to bet that by the end of Tuesday's episode the door will be left wide open for pretty much anything to happening shipping wise. So we'll just have to wait and see. Time will tell, it always does.

#sabezra #ahsoka show #star wars rebels #ezra bridger #sabine wren #long post #that was long #sorry

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look-how-they-massacred-them · 7 months

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Submission reason:

He was set up to be a main character in the first film of the sequel trilogy, and then sidelined more and more as it went on in favour of focussing on trying to make Kylo fucking Ren sympathetic. Finn had an interesting backstory that should have affected how everyone interacted with other Stormtroopers, but nothing came of it, no exploration that maybe the people they were killing were each their own person, or how many of them also would have run away given the chance, and just hadn't worked up the courage to do it yet. Him being force sensitive barely got mentioned after episode 7! He deserved a showdown with Kylo Ren and to kick his ass! Also on a meta note John Boyega was done dirty and he knows it!

Completely and aggressively sidelined despite having very clear set-up in the first movie to the point the actor spoke up about the transparent racism behind his and the character's treatment.

They were stripped of everything that made them interesting and turned into comic relief.

Tell me how we went from Black Jedi posters ahead of the first movie to ""went on a racist site plot of oggling at a casino"" in the second.

They set up a great narrative arc and then didn’t do SHIT with it

Finn was a character with so much potential! The first movie set him up to be so interesting! A former stormtrooper who had defected and was now working with the resistance? That's a great concept! And in both the marketing and throughout the first movie you could tell this was an important character! He and Rey were both the main characters. Fast forward to the last movie though and what did they do with this amazing character? Completely sidelined him! They brushed him aside as much as they possibly could. Did they have some interesting character moments or growth related to his stormtrooper past? Nope! It's never mentioned! Do they set him up to do something cool with his newfound force powers? Nope! It's barely mentioned! Do they have him and Rey get together after clearly setting them up as the main couple of the sequel series? Nope! Instead, Rey kisses a white man who is a fascist! Can they at least have him and Poe become canon after both actors were clearly rooting for it and they had so much chemistry? Nope! Because Disney are cowards and we can't have gay people in Star Wars! Do they do literally anything with his character? They have him running around chasing Rey and yelling her name a bunch. It's an absolute disgrace. Even the actor, John Boyega, has talked about how awful it was for him to have this character completely brushed aside. And all because Disney and a certain subset of Star Wars fans are racists. I will forever be mad about this.

He was hinted to have a great backstory, only to get demoted to a glorified side character in favor of Rey

Set up to be a main character and then was constantly relegated to the background and less and less time in the movies he was on the poster.

the first black character to be in promos and marketing as one of the leads - and then he gets sidelined again and again. he’s such a lovely guy and also so cool. he didn’t deserve this.

Among many others, they forgot his character motivations from the first film of wanting help people in general so they could pretend to make him having higher motivations a character arc.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy His character had so much potential! He gave a human face to stormtroopers! I know Rise of Skywalker screwed over everybody, and TO BE FAIR after having a few plot elements spoiled I decided fuck it, not watching that, but there was an OBVIOUS way to wrap up his arc by inciting a stormtrooper rebellion WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN USED IF THEY KEPT THE TREVORROW SCRIPT but instead you get the human face of stormtroopers just casually killing stormtroopers EVEN THOUGH HIS ENTIRE POINT IS THAT HE WASN’T COMFORTABLE WITH KILLING FUCK YOU J J ABRAMS I DID NOT THINK ANYONE COULD MAKE ME QUIT CARING ABOUT STAR WARS BHT CONGRUATILARIONS YOU DID IT GOOD JPB PLEASE NEVER DO ANYTHING AGAON.

Propaganda:

LITERALLY he's the Luke parallel he's the looking at the sky before the republic was destroyed ""I sense a great disturbance in the force like a billion souls crying out"" he's finding freedom from a life of indoctrination and then getting his ass the hell out of dodge and then STILL joining the fight when he was well within his right to leave okay he's like this clown is trying to kill me so I'm gonna pick up this lightsaber which wouldn't even work for me if I wasn't force sensitive and kick my emo edgelord ex boss' ASS and PROVE that being a Jedi is like legit my birthright ALL IN THE FIRST MOVIE and then by movie two it was like. Look at this dumb Black man make googly-eyes at a casino like it's a fucking 1920s minstrel cartoon while the white woman macks on a fascist and becomes the main character. How. HOW did we get here.

-deserves a real conclusion -deserves being challenged -deserves real character conflict and development -deserves the world -should’ve been actual rep instead of a tool for queerbaiting -should’ve STAYED the main character, not put aside in favor of sad angry white boy villain

#look how they massacred them poll #look how they massacred my boy #finn star wars #star wars finn #star wars #propaganda post

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inamindfarfaraway · 1 month

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So I saw your post here [https://www.tumblr.com/inamindfarfaraway/690058488775327745/batfamily-fanworks-that-purport-to-be-set-in-the] and oh my gosh YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

As much as I enjoy it, Hush is definitely to blame for this as it is held as THE end-all-be-all of all BatFam stories yet Cass (who an acclaimed ongoing series as Batgirl around the same time) was suspiciously missing from it along with Steph. Yet we only ever get flashbacks to Bab's time as Batgirl so that storyline also ended up cementing Bab's legacy as "the one and only Batgirl". Methinks a certain editor in charge at the time mandated for Cass and Steph to not appear in Hush because they-according to him-"were way too toxic" for said storyline. Because you see, as soon as he became a leading editor, his number one priority was getting rid of Steph and stripping Cass of her Batgirl role.

And so the age of darkness began...

First, there was War Games that solely existed to torture Steph in the most vile, most voyeuristic ways before killing her off. Then there was Robin: One Year Later, one of the worst, horrific character-assassination storylines since Spider-Man's One More Day, where Cass was suddenly turned into an over-the-top Saturday Morning cartoon villain obsessed with killing everyone, giving long-winded "together we can rule the world" speeches and being able to speak and write in fluent Navajo. ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD. Then there was Redemption Road which, despite its good moments and happy ending, did even more damage to Cass's character. And finally, we have Battle For The Cowl which ended up pushing Cass and Steph so far into the background, they were basically erased from the BatFamily altogether.

Yet despite Steph's well-received run as Batgirl, DC's poor marketing and the lead up to the New 52 prevented the series from becoming a proper bestseller and it was cancelled without any fanfare whatsoever. Still, all those horrible decisions and storylines (like War Games and Robin: One Year Later) did such massive, long term damage to the characters that, even despite all the small good things (Steph's Batgirl series to the excellent Gates Of Gotham mini-series starring Cass), they were buried from public consciousness. As for Duke (another character, I'm a fan of), I think its just a case of him being a very recent character, a lack of marketing and higher-ups not knowing what to do with him.

As for the asshole editor who everything to burry the Batgirls, he was eventually fired for creating an "unsafe working environment". And yes, his name rhymes with "Ban Video".

As for the people who keep erasing Cass, Steph and Duke from fan works, I know it sounds depressing but hear me out: Fandom, be it comics, video games, films, cartoons, TV shows, ect, has an unconscious bias of white male favouritism. (Yes, I know Dick is Romani, Damien half-Arabic/Asian yet they're still quite white-passing)

YES! THANK YOU! ALL OF THIS!

It is so sad and frustrating that these bias persist even in communities that are meant to be about joy and love; but of course the Batfam fandom has issues with sexism and racism when the canon also has for so long. I'm sure most fans don't try to be prejudiced, but male and white-passing characters are so much more popular than others. The unfair treatment of Steph as Robin and both her and Barbara in making Babs Batgirl again for no reason is one of the things I wrote Robins: The Musical to vent about, and that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks for the explanation! I was already familiar with most of the context you generously provided, but I still really appreciate it as a specific comics shame/recommendation guide and education for others. I wasn't aware of Gates of Gotham and will read it! Black Bat my beloved. Dan Didio when I catch you...

(My original post is here)

#batfam #batfamily #batfam fandom #dc comics #dc #dc fandom #cassandra cain #batgirl #black bat #stephanie brown #spoiler #duke thomas #the signal #comics history

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piglet26 · 3 months

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Reylo. Sorry, but it's not abusive

Star Wars is not selling abusive relationships to young girls nor conditioning them into aspiring to them. Reylo is not propaganda from disgruntled single middle aged woman. It wasn't promoting abusive relationships when Luke still found love for his father despite Darth Vader cutting off his hand. Luke fans, young and old, were not attacked as being dumb or needy for liking Luke or how he viewed his father. It damn sure wasn't considered abusive when Anakin choked Padme and she still held hope for him in her heart. Or, that Obi-Wan still held a love for Anakin despite everything Darth Vader had done. Then there was Reylo.

Being a Reylo is not something I feel I need to defend. Let me love what I love in peace. That's what I believe. I did not actually see any of the sequel trilogy until after it was concluded. I was not on any fandoms during the rollout and marketing for the films. Thank God. However, I have gathered enough to understand it was horrible how Reylos were being regarded. It was beyond patronizing. I'm not new to fandom, hell I've been on soap opera fandoms for quite some time and believe me that's a savage space, but wow.

I want to clarify some of the feedback against Reylo and reaffirm why it's such a compelling pairing. Further more, I regard it as an compelling attribute to the Star Wars universe that only added to the franchise.

Now I've seen the domination of woman twisted up and called romance (see Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray), but I don't think people understand WHY those relationship were as such. Rey, on her own, is one of the strongest and most badass female leads to ever appear on the big screen. Despite people thinking she doesn't have a personality she is a resourceful, tough, innocent, loyal, hopeful and strong. She has agency unlike Bella Swan. She is not sexualized by Kylo Ren unlike the 50 shades girl. Her gender is neither a hindrance nor an advantage. She has the agency to save herself, but she is also saved.

Which is really one of the main issues. There is the patronization of Rey as a character, the people who like her and the people who like the pairing. While those 50 shades of gray books didn't buy themselves rather than listening to why Reylos liked the pairing they were told why they did and then dismissed. Or, there's the men that wanted Rey to be with Finn because Finn was the "nice guy" who they identified with.

Rey doesn't need a love interest - not all heroines need love interests, but why does it imply she's weak if she does have a love interest? Heroes infamously have a female counterpart which helps make them viable. It doesn't make them any less interesting as an individual.

Kylo Ren and Rey are NOT a couple but instead representatives of opposing sides in a war. This is the most important part. From the get-go they have an intense dynamic. Both have had visions and dreams of the other and they recognize something in one another. Kylo Ren did kidnap Rey, however, if you consider fighting your enemies “abusive” or interrogating war prisoners as “domestic violence”.............well, that is odd.

As quotes about them

What if your soulmate in the Force was your enemy? Circumstance, pits them against each other, but the Force bonds them together. They understand each other almost from a point of view of fate. And yet, fate has made them enemies.

While Kylo Ren is fascinated by In the moments of the interrogation, gender and sexuality have nothing to do with Kylo’s actions. J.J. made the conscious choice to show us the same scene twice (Kylo Ren interrogating his enemies) so the audience can spot the differences between the two. Sorry J.J, you trusted people too much.

We're able to see very clear aggression and abuse come from Kylo Ren for Poe. He has zero interest in him personally. He needs information and he will get it. The force and his ability to read someone's mind is a tool within his disposal. Now why isn't Poe's interrogation considered sexual assault?

"You know I can take anything I want" HE CAN READ HER MIND! He's not talking about raping her for God's Sake! He asked her to freely provide information and she didn't want to. However, he has a tool to use against a girl adding his enemies - a tool he'll use if she doesn't want to snitch. She knows this he already read her mind - so why not give the information freely?!

Rey also invaded his mind, so did she mind-rape him too?

The line that fans almost never seem to talk about in The Force Awakens is when Kylo says to Rey “Don’t be afraid, I feel it too.” What did he feel? The best I'm able to understand is what they felt was their force dyad igniting or fulfilling.

Ren becomes personally invested in Rey. Not with her cause, or her affiliation with the Resistance, but with her and what he wants from her.

“Kylo chased Finn and Rey outside Starkiller Base to fight them! He threw Rey against a tree!” Well she was going to shoot him..... I would've thrown her against a tree to save myself. His issue in that moment was Finn. Finn was the "traitor" in questioned and his unfinished business. They fought, but really it was a dueling exercise. Kylo Ren wanted to test her skills and her powers. If he wanted her dead there was a convenient edge to push her over, hell he offered to teach her. Rey was the one to go ape and almost kill him.

Again, I'm not implying that they aren't messy - they are. For literary nerds this is why they are a compelling heroine/villain. Ultimately one will greatly affect the other. The tension in between them is why it's great.

Ben Solo, least we forget, is himself an abuse victim. This is canon. While Kylo Ren has learned abusive techniques, they are at war. Applying abusive characteristics to a fictional character in a war setting without any attempt to incorporate the story is bizarre. Why was he able for the first time to stand against his abuser? Rey. He couldn't stand up for himself but he stood up for her. Ultimately, Kylo Ren wanted to 'break the wheel" that's what he claimed. If he was honest, he'd admit he had no clue of how to do that.

Most abusers are charming and irresistible when you first meet them. Ben has NEVER dishonest with Rey about who he is. Rey is very aware of the horrible side of him and even refers to him as a monster. He affirms her accusation that he is a monster.

During their force bonds because of the nature of the bond Rey is in a position to hear him out and try to understand how he became the monster he is today. When she learns that he didn't become this on his own, that Luke, his parents and Snoke contributed to his downfall she had hope in him. It's also important to make the distinctions that when she has a vision of him, it's as Ben. It's like a bipolar personality. When Kylo Ren goes all Darcy marriage proposal - she reject him. She rightfully spurned him when he resorted to cruelty to sway her to his side. Rey turned down Kylo as long as he was the ’bad guy’, and only kissed him as Ben ’the good guy’.

“He only wants to use her for her power.” Oversimplification that Rey is actually guilty of. Kylo Ren is lonely and within Rey he finds not only an equal but the most intense emotional connection he's ever had. The most intense connection she's ever had. Let's not forget they are probably both virgins. Then they are in each other's head. That's intense. When Kylo makes his plea to Rey it's out of not only loneliness but truly wanting her for her.

Also, Kylo doesn’t say he wants them to rule together as “master and apprentice”. He wants Rey to be his empress, his queen which is what Rey means. He’s literally proposing by offering her the entire galaxy. Ultimately Reylos see them as two equally powerful archenemies dedicating themselves to defeating the other but also find themselves strangely drawn to each other in ways they might not want to admit. Then two soul mates on the other side of a conflict.

This is built on the idea that hate itself is a sort of twisted form of love. It is, or, rather hatred is born from things like fear, pain, betrayal and love. Their connection is complicated. One minutes they last out at one another and the next they lean into each other. People can regard this as toxic. Others, like myself, regard this as the gray side of love. Reylo represent the yin yang of the force. The light and the dark craving each other and finding themselves frustrated.

Notice how many hero/villains find themselves telling others that only they are allowed to kill/harm their nemesis, in a subconscious effort to protect their nemesis from others. And they may also get strangely jealous when their nemesis fights other people.

Other people give this argument because they believe the popularity of antiheroes in media is a sign of society’s moral decay. The First Order for all we know is not a fascist society. We have no idea the ideology of the First Order. We know their clothing was inspired by the Nazis.

Red String of Fate: the two connected by the red thread are destined lovers, regardless of place, time, or circumstances. This magical cord may stretch or tangle, but never break

Kylo Ren and Rey BOTH want to be together, believe in the other, but are held back by their individual idea of what means. How is that abusive?! Maybe it's back to thinking little girls won't be able to understand the complexity of Reylo. Huh, well little boys can understand the complexity of Batman and Joker. If little boys are smart enough to realize the difference between fiction and reality and are able to watch a love/hate relationship between a good guy and a bad guy, I’m pretty sure the girls can handle it too. Rey has hope and belief that Kylo Ren can be good, she won't stay by his side while he's doing bad.

What is Reylo? In a way. Iconic

#reylo #star wars #rey star wars #ben solo #rey skywalker #kylo x rey #finnrey #kylo ren #ben solo deserved better #ben solo x rey #rey palpatine #rey #reylo au #star wars fanart #disney star wars

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37-children-of-the-dreams · 2 months

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You know, I don’t think I have never seen any huge family drama on screen in Star Wars when it comes to family members being enemies, but then wanting to redeem themselves and be a family again.

I mean Anakin became Vader and was an enemy to his own family. Then, his grandson Ben became Kylo Ren and was an enemy to his family. They were both redeemed and there wasn’t much drama on screen.

Bo-Katan was Satine’s, and by extension Korkie’s, enemy for a time because she opposed her sister’s ideology. Yet, she was redeemed and they forgave her despite everything without any drama.

There might be more but those are the ones that I can mostly think of.

Yet, The Bad Batch is about to give fans a drama filled episodes of how redemption doesn’t equal instant forgiveness because we just Hunter and Wrecker give Crosshair the most disappointed and anger filled stare they can make. This is good storytelling because they don’t know that Crosshair has changed as they only have memories of Crosshair hurting them, which includes the message that indirectly killed Tech. Crosshair has to show them that he wants redemption and that he wants to be a good person for his family. We get to see Crosshair earning his redemption from his family and not just be told that he earned it.

I can’t wait for his redemption arc!

#star wars #the bad batch #tbb crosshair #tbb season three spoilers #tbb season 3 #clone trooper crosshair

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fandom-shitposter · 2 months

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Corporate entities hate fanmade works and would love nothing more than to get them shut down entirely

They hate that there are people out there using their characters and their settings and having fun with them without having to pay them for the priviledge

But as long as fans aren't making money out of their IP they can currently get away with it. But we've recently seen a crackdown on people selling t-shirt designs, stickers, etc which violate this

So what can they do to try to firm up the laws on this, to get them to fall more in their favour?

Would writing their own fanfic and turning it into a show that they're making lots of money from be enough to do that, for them to sell merchandise and profit from someone else's IP without asking or paying for the use of it?

For it to maybe go to court for a very public fight over who can do what with a property they're a fan of?

Because that could well be what Disney is currently up to with their Star Wars shows

Not just making a few references to other movies or tv shows, but taking entire plotlines, blurring the edges of them, and dropping them right into their own shows

Want an example even if it risks containing show spoilers? of course you do!

Back in Season 7 of The Clone Wars (On the Wings of Keeradaks) we have a scene where Tech uses a recording of the flying lizards they encounted earlier to call them to their position and fly them out of danger

Just like Gandalf summons the eagles to come and rescue his party from the attack from Azog and his team of orcs and wargs, right down to the way some party members are left dangling over a huge drop off the mountainside

Later, in The Bad Batch (Reunion, S1), Hunter has been shot in the chest and Tech gets him up, gets him to safety, and (offscreen) medical aid is provided

Which is extremely close to that same rescue scene in The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, only the part of it where Gandalf gets Thorin up and out of danger, with the assistance of the eagles, after he's been severly mauled by a warg, and then rendering medical assistance to him

Tech goes on to have a big fall (Plan 99, Bad Batch, S2), right off the end of a great big crumbling bridge. Sound familiar to any LotR fans?

And in a different episode (The Crossing, Bad Batch, S2) Tech is seen falling and landing in a similarly super familiar looking cave

Which repeats parts of the two separate scenes of Gandalf falling and 'dying' ('The Fellowship of the Ring' for the fall, and 'The Two Towers' for the cave scene) which all the characters get really sad about - until he gets better and comes back. Which has yet to be seen in Tech's case. (How Tech will be able to come back from his fall despite not being a wizard is explained via his character specific movie source they've made repeated use of, but since that's still hugely spoilery I'm not getting into that here)

And this is only a couple of examples of one tiny instance where this is happening, the show is filled with them and it applies to all the main characters not just Techdalf

'Entombed' (The Bad Batch, S2) hits The Hobbit up HARD for it's plot and not only gives us the Arkenstone but oblong, which it directly names as The Heart of the Mountain, which is found and then lost again, but dredges up a fire breathing dragon equivalent. Add in some additional Alien themeing and a lizardy creature that can be shot in the chest with a laser arrow before being tossed out of a window in full on 'OMG it's Ripley with the airlock' style and they're really cramming it in there. They end with a reference to an opportunity to find a golden chalice, which is what Bilbo took from Samug's hoarde as proof that he'd found it But people have been easily sidelined from thinking about any of this too hard by them throwing in a handful of surface references to Indiana Jones, the potential of a love interest being developed, and the 'dragon' being a creature previously seen in the Jedi: Fallen Order video game

And don't even get me started on how Senator Avi Singh appears to live in Dale (Common Ground, Bad Batch, S1), Roland and Isa Durand apparently live in Rohan (Paths Unknown, Bad Batch, S3) or Dr Hemlock and his former base at Dol Guldur (Paths Unknown, The Bad Batch, S3) and what that implies for the remainder of the show

They've blended together a lot of canon prequel & clone wars era Star Wars content with a range of supplementary non-canon SW content such a comic books, video games, Legends novels, etc which maintains the idea that this show is nothing more than Star Wars and keeps a lot of long term fans happy and distracted by seeing non-canon things finally appearing in a canon setting, even if they have changed some of the details

But so many concepts and images have been lifted barely altered from their original sources, not just from Tolkein's works, and just slapped down like we're not supposed to notice how much of it there actually is because they've made the animation and lighting so very very pretty

#the bad batch #the hobbit #star wars #lord of the rings #the clone wars #lotr #fandom #they're specifically taking scenes from the movie versions of these stories #which just makes it easier for them I suppose #already having a nice convenient visual to copy

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gffa · 3 months

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I read the first volume of Nightwing 2011 and it violently flung me back in time to when the Nu52 stuff was first coming out and how mad I was about all of it, that I'm not wrong that I was bored by all this new stuff--I read that entire volume and only the Alfred cameo had me even consider making a post about it, despite that it was prime content, Dick inheriting the Circus! William Cobb mention! Court of Owls! Kyle Higgins writing it! and yet I had nothing to say about any of it--but the bigger lesson I took away was: I remember that mindset of constantly being mad at comics and it's exhausting just thinking about it. "Nobody hates comics like comics fans" was funny to me back in the day, but now I'm too tired to want to go down that road again, I've done my time in the salt mines, I'm parking my butt out in the sunshine now. There's a lot of things I'd love to see done better about current day comics, but there's a lot that's genuinely just fun, I enjoyed Gotham War, I enjoyed the hell out of Beast World, it was so silly and fun, I'm enjoying Tom Taylor's Nightwing series, I'm enjoying viewing Babs as Batgirl through my own lens of what invisible disabilities are like to go through and how much you have to claw back even when it's not "obvious" that you're not fully able-bodied, all things that sure could be better, but I have personally chosen to stay in the sun and find the joy. Reading Nightwing 2011 I was catapulted back into that mindset of Being Mad At Comics and it was just the opposite of fun, I don't want to spend my time being mad about the costume color's change from blue to red, I want to read a comic and find a moment of joy and come yell at the internet about it. So, like. If you see me be doggedly positive and think my taste is shit, fair enough, but also just know that I have decided I am letting go of my anger at the funnybooks as much as I can because, at the end of the day, they're comic books and I have a choice: Be mad or have fun. I'm choosing fun because I, on a personal level, need that. (And also I think there's a lot to have fun with!) (This post also brought to you by Star Wars. Oh my goooood there's so much I could complain about in Star Wars, some of it is So Bad, but like. Where is that going to get me, on a grand scale? Nowhere fun! This is my hobby, I'm skimming over the bad and finding the stuff that I think is cute or funny, because I nearly left the SW fandom a bunch of times because constant negativity was absolutely killing any energy I had to be here.)

#lumi.txt #fandom

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echojedis · 11 months

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My thoughts re: Tech being alive or not is that it could go either way, personally I’m leaning towards him being alive- the way the cast and crew have been talking about it is very vague and if he is really gone there’s no reason for that, surely it wouldn’t be a spoiler to say he’s really dead when we saw him fall. Unless they’ve seen the speculation and are purposefully toying with us which imo would be unnecessarily cruel. The Kiners in particular I don’t see doing that, Brad and Jen were frustratingly insistent over Crosshair having his chip removed despite his headaches in the finale so if it had been them dropping hints I would be a lot more sceptical. For me a big part of thinking that he’s potentially alive is that it’s not just the hardcore online fans speculating about it, even casual fans seem to think it was left too vague. Of course they could have purposefully left it vague to fuel speculation between seasons but to do that if he is really dead is again unnecessarily cruel and a cheap move writing-wise.

I can see Tech living working without making his sacrifice feel meaningless but I can also see how they can very easily screw it up, if he’s alive there has to be some consequences. Him being experimented on by Hemlock seems likely but there’s a fine line between paralleling Echo’s story in a way that ultimately strengthens their bond vs just retreading his path, especially since Echo’s trauma hasn’t been fully explored yet. 16 episodes seems like such a short amount of time for it all to come together, the season 3 announcement on the Star Wars site referred to TBB as ‘this part of the story’ which leaves the door open for a potential spinoff/continuation which could involve Tech but I’m definitely reading into that too much.

#most of this is stuff i’ve already said in tags that i wanted to elaborate on #sorry for the wall of text #part of me wants them to just come out and say he’s dead so we can get the closure but part of me #enjoys speculating. there’s lots of different paths they can take and i can see almost all of them happening #i don’t know how to tag this #tech tbb #tech lives

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mnemo-li · 11 months

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Gosh, I have so many thoughts about Gromph Baenre. Maybe I’m reading too much into things lol, but here we go. Spoilers below for Starlight & Shadows, War of the Spider Queen, Companions Codex, Homecoming, Generations, and parts of The Way of the Drow.

Imagine literally being the most powerful man in a city, potentially the oldest (non-undead) man of a race, and still being limited in what you can do just because you’re born male. You have so much power, and yet in the end you are not free. People may fear you and perhaps even respect you, but no one cares for you. You, no matter all you have done, are replaceable and will be discarded the moment you are deemed a liability.

There’s this quote in Tangled Webs:

But no matter what powers he might command, what information he possessed, Gromph needed someone like Shakti. The archmage was tied to Menzoberranzan by the task of enchanting Narbondel—an honor that was also a chain with links forged anew with the coming of each midnight hour.

The so-called honor of being the only one allowed to enchant Narbondel is a double-edged sword. It’s a symbol of his status yet, because he has to do it daily, it means he can’t be away from Menzoberranzan for more than a day. It’s a chain that binds him to the city, to the control of the Matron Mother. It’s a leash.

I also find the mention of Narbondel in Extinction to be interesting:

Despite the toehold the enemy had gained—and lost—in Tier Breche, Menzoberranzan seemed untouched by war. The stalactites and stalagmites of the noble manors still sparkled, and a ring of magical fire was creeping up the great spire of Narbondel. Gromph frowned, wondering which of the wizards of House Baenre had been keeping it going in his absence. It seemed that he was not quite as irreplaceable as he would have liked. He’d have to speak to Triel about that.

That’s what I was referring to. The lighting of Narbondel — something that is meant to be performed only by the Archmage of the city — is in actuality a role that anyone could do, really. Logically, I’d agree with Triel too. The city needs Narnondel to tell time and if Gromph was missing, it was more pragmatic to have someone perform his duty in his stead. And yet, all of this goes to show how if someone else could do what Gromph does, then that means he isn’t irreplaceable.

I also find this exchange between Guldor and Gromph to be intruiging (and funny— I always love when Gromph is his good old surly and sarcastic self).

“Archmage!” cried Guldor Melarn. He was supposedly without peer in the realm of elemental magic, though it couldn’t be proved by his performance thus far that night. “We were worried about you!”

“I’m sure,” said Gromph, striding closer. “I noticed all the search parties you sent out looking for me.”

Guldor hesitated. “Sir, the mistress of the Academy commanded—“

“Shut up,” said Gromph.

The small interaction is also very telling. None of the other mages seemed to care about Gromph enough to go look for him, or it could be that what Guldor said was true, that Triel forbid them from doing so. It’s either that Triel believes Gromph is capable enough to get out of whatever trouble he’d gotten himself into by himself, or she too couldn’t be bothered (or has other pressing matters to deal with— and considering the state of Menzoberranzan, that’s understandable).

Whatever the reason, it still must be harrowing for Gromph deep down. To learn that he is replaceable, and to not have anyone he concerned about his disappearance enough to look for him. Of course, the concept of caring for someone is arguable something alien to the drow in the first place. Still, it would be interesting to see how Gromph would react should he realize that his position as Archmage isn’t secure.

As much as I sometimes joke about RA Salvatore being a shit writer — at least compared to the likes of Elaine Cunningham and Paul S. Kemp (whose Star Wars books I’m a huuuge fan of, whose contribution to the War of the Spider Queen series I absolutely adore) — Salvatore did manage to sprinkle bits and pieces to make Gromph a sympathetic villain or at least a villain whom we can partially sympathize with and feel pathos towards.

Take for instance, this excerpt from Vengeance of the Iron Dwarfs:

It is about embarrassing Matron Mother Quenthel, Kimmuriel said in Jarlaxle’s thoughts, and he looked from the psionicist to the archmage, trying to sort it out. Or perhaps it goes even higher than her. Jarlaxle snorted at that, for who could be higher than Quenthel, who served as the Matron Mother of Menzoberranzan? Then he figured it out, and he stopped snorting.

He looked at Gromph, only then beginning to appreciate how wounded his brother had been by the betrayal of the Spider Queen. Lolth had gone to the realm of arcane magic, had tried to dominate the Weave itself—and indeed, by all reports, she had made the magical strands encompassing Toril take on the aspect of a gigantic spider web. Gromph had dared to hope that Lolth’s move would elevate his standing, that he, as the greatest drow wizard of the age, as the greatest drow practitioner of the Art, would become more than a mere male in the matriarchal City of Spiders.That was Gromph’s error, Jarlaxle realized, and he nodded knowingly as he considered his brother.

Poor Gromph had dared to hope.

I feel pity for Gromph reading that. As an aside though, I really love the dynamics between Gromph and Jarlaxle throughout the series. I wonder too if Gromph is secretly jealous of or resentful towards Jarlaxle for his relative freedom.

Also, there’s this bit from Archmage that really makes me feel for Gromph:

His sly taunting of his sister did little to improve Gromph’s bitter mood. Even if he toppled her, even if he destroyed every matron mother and high priestess in the city, what would he accomplish?

He was a male, nothing more, and even when Lady Lolth had turned to the Weave, to a domain he had come to dominate more than any dark elf in centuries—in millennia, in perhaps the entire history of the race—Lolth’s gratitude had not reached to him, nor his fellow male wizards.

Sorcere, the drow school of arcane magic, the academy under the control of Gromph, had counted among its students almost exclusively male drow, with only a few notable exceptions of priestesses looking to enhance their magical repertoire by adding arcane spells to their divinely inspired magic. Yet as soon as the Weave had become a web, as soon as it appeared that Lady Lolth would steal the domain of the goddess Mystra, the noble Houses had flooded Sorcere with their daughters as students.

The matron mothers, with Lolth’s blessing, would not suffer the males of Menzoberranzan their position atop the ranks of Lolth’s arcane disciples. Would Gromph’s ultimate title of archmage have proven secure? But Lolth had lost her bid for the Weave, so Gromph had learned, though the details were not yet known to him. The Weave was no longer in her spidery claws and the city and school would return to normal, perhaps. Gromph would remain the archmage, and, he now even more poignantly understood, would remain a “mere male” in Menzoberranzan.

I’d like to argue that it isn’t Gromph’s ego or arrogance that is the reason behind his hunger for power. But rather, it’s Gromph deep rooted desire for security— not just in his position as Archmage, but security in the sense that he is quite insecure deep down. After all, excessive arrogance is often a mask for hollow confidence. Look at the scene here leading up to Gromph’s accidental summoning of Demogorgon.

“Your demon led the defense,” the matron mother spat. “This failure falls upon your shoulders. Be cautious, wizard, for Tsabrak Xorlarrin will surely survive this, and he remains in the graces of the Spider Queen.”

She spun and swept out of the room and Gromph fell back in his seat, his fingers tap-tapping once more. He tried to dismiss Quenthel’s overt threat, but he began to see some troubling possibilities. Would his sister cut a deal with Matron Mother Zeerith to absorb House Xorlarrin into House Baenre? Where might the Xorlarrins go if the dwarves gained an unshakable foothold? They would not be welcomed back into Menzoberranzan as a rival House, particularly not now with so many backroom alliances being formed among the ruling matron mothers.

And perhaps Quenthel would spread the whispers that Gromph had failed, that the archmage had, in fact, been the cause of the loss of Q’Xorlarrin. In that event, would Quenthel be in a stronger position to offer Zeerith one of her most coveted trophies: a Xorlarrin as Archmage of Menzoberranzan? Nay, this was not a threat Gromph could easily dismiss, and in that realization, so came his outrage.

His “outrage” was a reaction to being “threatened”. Sure, it was his anger and ego that overruled his common sense, the sense of caution that he should’ve had when summoning a powerful demon… but the root of it all was the fact that Quenthel threatened his position as archmage.

This all harkens back to the fact that Gromph is replaceable and will be replaced should he no longer be useful. Hence, his insecurity and the constant need to prove himself.

Additionally, I also find Gromph's interaction with Catti-brie in Maestro to be incredibly fascinating from a character perspective.

First though, I should put a disclaimer saying that I think their relationship is weird as fuck, and Salvatore's way of writing Gromph thinking of Catti-brie in a horny way is just... ew. The whole 'mind-rape' thing is not something I condone, the bit where Gromph uses his psionic abilities to impart a vision of him and Catti together into Catti-brie's mind. However, it does hint a lot at the way men are treated in Drow society and how Gromph's sexual relationship with women usually go.

In Daughter of the Drow, there is this quote:

Perhaps even more than his obvious wealth and famed magical power, Gromph's ability to select his consorts was a testament to his status. In this matriarchal city, males had a decidedly subservient role, and most answered to the whims of females.

I might be reading into it too much, but if men are suggested to be unable to choose their wives, then it is implied that they wouldn't have any experience in romantic courtship either. It's like their entire notion of what a relationship is for men, is that they are meant to be pickedby women and forced to marry or have children with women without any say in it. Men getting to get to know someone, to flirt with them and court them, before making the mutual decision to enter into a relationship doesn't seem to be a thing in drow society. Starlight & Shadows goes to explain more about how male drows don't even get to be a part of their children's lives either, which is why Gromph's decision to murder Sosdrielle Vandree and "adopt" Liriel Baenre to be such a major powermove and a violation of societal norm.

Anyhow, the point I am trying to make about Gromph and Catti is that, of course Gromph would "flirt" with Catti in such a fucked up manner. He doesn't know anything about courtship, doesn't have any other frame of reference for what a healthy courtship or relationship between males and females is like.

“I forgive you,” she repeated. “For your telepathic intrusions. I understand now that you were not even there in my thoughts, and that it was only a suggestion placed for me to find.”

“And to enjoy.”

Catti-brie’s expression went cold.

“Then I am no rapist,” Gromph smugly replied to that look.

“You are a scoundrel and a fraud,” the woman said. “But I expected as much from the outset. I forgive you because now I trust that you will not hold me in lust, in body, in mind, or in hatred.”

Gromph wanted Catti to "enjoy" the image of him and her together. In other words, that really is his way of initiating a sexual relationship, that is what he thinks flirting or courtship is. In real life modern day terms, Gromph's telepathic intrusion would definitely be a form of sexual assault... but Catti-brie is right in the sense that Gromph hadn't meant to rape her. Let me be clear though, I am not justifying any of his actions. I just find Gromph to be so fascinating from a narrative perspective. If the Drizzt series wasn't what is was, if it was more like A Song of Ice and Fire for example, then I'm sure the author would explore more about how Gromph's actions and attitudes probably stems (at least partially) from his women-related trauma.

Look at this scene in Archmage here for example:

She dared look up, to find Gromph glaring at her.

“You know nothing of what I know or do not know, Minolin of House Fey-Branche.” His reference to her lesser House, instead of naming her as a Baenre, was a clear and sharp reminder.

“You are not a woman,” Minolin Fey said quietly. “There is nothing more … personal.”

“I am not a woman,” Gromph echoed. “A fact of which I am reminded every day of my life.”

Gromph definitely has a sore spot about not being a woman, and thus being beneath a woman in terms of societal status. This resentment and emotional wound of his shows up again in Maestro, in this interaction of Catti-brie.

“You have no power over my free will, and that is the measure of intimacy,” Catti-brie pressed on against his sheer awfulness. “You’ll not get back into my thoughts, nor will you ever get beneath my robes.”

“Truly?” Gromph asked slyly. “Dear human, you will be amazed by the things I can accomplish, particularly when a woman tells me that I cannot.”

I find the latter half of the sentence to be poignant. It's as if he's taking Catti's resistance as a challenge, or an insult. Mind you, Gromph is still a monster for many of the things he does. But he has such a potential to be a multifaceted villain (who then becomes something of an anti-villain), something I believe Salvatore is working towards. I believe Salvatore’s attempt at a pseudo redemption arc for Gromph is very... lacking. The scene at the end of Maestro where he bows down to Catti also gives me weird vibes too ngl.

Yet, I still wouldn’t dismiss his attempts to soften Gromph recently. Take this scene in Boundless for example:

“And your friend in Ship Kurth?”

“Any who should concern us are in no danger,” the archmage assured her. Caecilia gave a little snort, but tried to cover it when she saw the scowl on Gromph’s face and realized he knew she was mocking him.

“Such a drow thing to say,” she admitted. “If all of Luskan other than those you deem valuable to you were to be slaughtered, would you even care, Archmage?”

“Should I?”

Caecilia blew a long sigh and let it go. Curiously, though, as she walked through the door leading to her extradimensional mansion, she realized that she actually didn’t believe Gromph. Had he been so battered by the distorted culture of Menzoberranzan that he thought it a sign of great weakness to admit compassion? How many others? the cloud giantess wondered. How many other dark elves had been similarly broken?

Gromph has spend pretty much the majority of his long, long life in the Underdark. Menzoberranzan is all he knows. Which makes me curious about the direction Salvatore plans to take Gromph’s character in the The Way of the Drow. Take this scene for example:

“To the Nine Hells with that ugly spider,” said Gromph from the tunnel.

Drizzt turned to watch the sour archmage come forth, and took great pleasure and great hope in seeing the man verily transform at the sight, as if the tension and anger were suddenly simply falling away from him as he looked upon the wonder of Callidae.

“It was worth the journey, yes?” Jarlaxle asked him, and Gromph couldn’t respond, and he didn’t have to.”

Callidae, a place where drow may live in peace upon the surface, is a symbol of hope-- a hope so strong to the point where Gromph is willing to throw away his allegiance to Lolth. I know Cunningham is unlikely to come and write for the Drizzt series, but damn... I wish Gromph could meet up with Liriel again. I wonder what she’d think of her father now. I wish we could one day see Gromph fully embody his role as the Archmage of the Hosttower, shedding the former identity of Archmage of Menzoberranzan, both in name and in heart. Speaking of Liriel, a part of me wonders too how much Gromph actually cares to her (yes--- she is a tool to him, but Liriel seems to be capable of activating a strange sort of fatherly instinct in him, something very vulnerable and pure and hopefully enduring). We have this scene of their first proper meeting, in Daughter of the Drow:

"Look down," advised a lilting, melodic voice, a voice that rang with mischief and childish delight.

Incredulous, Gromph shifted his gaze downward. There stood a tiny, smiling female about five years of age, easily the most beautiful child he had ever seen.She was a tiny duplicate of her mother, whom Gromph had recently left sleeping in a nearby suite of rooms. The child's face was angular, and her elven features delicate and sharp. A mop of silky white curls tumbled about her shoulders, contrasting with baby skin that had the sheen and texture of black satin. But most striking were the wide amber eyes, so like his own, that regarded him with intelligence and without fear. Those eyes stole Gromph's annoyance and stirred his curiosity.

This, then, must be his daughter. For some reason that thought struck a faint chord in the heart of the solitary, evil old drow.

(Of course, I won’t disregard how he then goes on to murder her mother / his wife in the next scene... so lol. Gromph is still a ruthless drow, after all. But even monsters can love, or so I wish to believe.)

There’s also certain tiny details that stuck out to me:

"So, drowling. I don't suppose you can read?"

It was a ridiculous question, for the child was little more than a babe. Yet her brow furrowed as she considered the matter.

"I'm not sure," she said thoughtfully. "You see, I've never tried."

She darted toward the open spellbook and peered down at the page. Too late, Gromph slapped a hand over her golden eyes, cursing under his breath as he did so. Even simple spells could be deadly, for magic runes attacked the untrained eye with a stab of searing light. Attempting to read an unlearned spell could cause terrible pain, blindness, even insanity.

See what I mean about fatherly instincts? His immediate instinct was to protect her eyes, her sanity etc.

As Liriel grows up, her relationship with Gromph also seems almost... cordial. She seems relaxed with him, not holding back her tongue too much. At times, Gromph is seen chuckling and seemingly enjoying her presence too (unless he’s in a bad mood or she crosses a line somehow). Gromph is more lenient with her than one would expect, but also knows how to be strict when necessary, as befitting his station.

"Have a good time," Liriel mimicked bitterly as she and the archmage strode down the hall. "This, from someone whose idea of fun involves whipping people with snakes!"

Her blasphemous remark drew a shocked chuckle from Gromph.

"You must learn to guard your tongue," he admonished. "Few of the Academy's mistresses are burdened with a sense of humor."

"Don't I know it! Father, do I really have to become a priestess?" she demanded. "Can't you do anything to stop this?”

Liriel knew the words were a mistake the moment she spoke them. No one stayed healthy for long by pointing out to proud, frustrated Gromph that there were limits to his power. The expected rage did not come.

"It is my will you become a priestess," the archmage said coldly.

The scene continues with Gromph granting Liriel the means to go wherever she wish.

The archmage reached into a hidden pocket of his cloak and drew out a small book.

"This is yours. Learn it well, for you would surely go mad in Arach-Tinilith without the escape this book offers you." He paused for a grim smile. "I had this compiled for you—a task that spanned several years and cost the lives of a number of wizards—knowing this day would come."

That was quite a pitch, even for melodramatic Gromph, Liriel thought with a touch of wry humor. She took the book and opened it to the first spell. She skimmed the page, and the meaning of the symbols came to her with a rush of excitement and disbelief.

"This is a spell for summoning a gate!"

"And so is every other spell in the book," he agreed. "With this knowledge, you can travel where no priestess can follow."

Liriel leafed through the spellbook, her excitement growing by the moment. Magical travel was extremely difficult in the Underdark, and those who tried it often ended up as a permanent part of the landscape. This gift would give her greater freedom than she had ever enjoyed. Best of all, her father had foreseen this day, and prepared for it! Liriel hugged the precious book to her chest.

"I can't begin to thank you!" she cried joyfully.

Gromph Baenre smiled down at her, but his amber eyes remained cold. "Not yet, perhaps, but when the time comes I will tell you how you can properly express your gratitude. Become a priestess and seize what power you can. But never forget you are a wizard first and foremost. Your loyalty belongs to me."

The warmth fled from Liriel's heart. She held the arch-mage's hard gaze, and her golden eyes mirrored his. "Don't worry, Father," she said softly. "Lloth forbid I should ever forget what I am to you."

Gosh, this is why I love Cunningham sooo much. Much like Gromph’s scene with baby Liriel where the two have somewhat of a cute father-daughter moment, throwing faerie fire at each other etc.. the heatwarming scenes are always proceeded by an emotional whiplash, reminding the readers that this is Gromph Baenre we’re dealing with. In the first scene, Gromph murders Liriel’s mother right after having a cute moment with Liriel. Here, Gromph grants her what is one of the most valuable grimoires she’ll ever own, right before reminding her that she belongs to him as his tool.

A part of me could not help but wonder too though... does Gromph see himself in Liriel? The natural aptitude for magic, the fact that by their gender they are being forced into a role they did not want (Gromph being subservient to females as a male, Liriel being forced to become a cleric as a female despite wanting to be a wizard etc). The parallels are definitely there. I wonder if, through Liriel, Gromph may be unconsciously wishing to give her the opportunities he never had: freedom.

True freedom.

A part of me would like to think that Gromph, deep down, secretly wants Liriel to one day flee Menzoberranzan--- just as Jarlaxle did, to an extent at least.

I could go on and on about this forever, but I’ll stop here. If anyone is reading my rant this far, thanks! Feel free to hmu if you want to talk to.

#legend of drizzt #gromph baenre #war of the spider queen #Starlight & Shadows #the way of the drow

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weaselandfriends · 3 months

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I just binge'd your Hymnstoke series. Now that HS^2 (HS^BC) is back up and running with James Roach at the helm, I was wondering if you could share your thoughts on the direction that HS^2 and Homestuck Beyond Canon are taking with the new updates?

Before I begin, I'll point you to a previous post I made on the topic of HS^2, back when it was under the previous management.

Truthfully, I still haven't read HS^2, either the old version or the new. I remain uninterested in it conceptually. For me, the Epilogues were the perfect finale to Homestuck and I no longer have any desire to see its story continued or its characters expanded upon.

I think I'm somewhat mismatched with the typical fans of Homestuck. From talking to fans, it seems many of them started reading as teenagers, who found in its something relatable and became invested in the journey of its characters. I wasn't like that. I began reading Homestuck in college. I was not introduced to it via fandom osmosis or seeing art of it or cosplays or so on. I didn't even learn of it from word-of-mouth from one of my friends. I was reading a post someone had made about so-called ergodic literature, which cited House of Leaves and Homestuck as examples. Having read House of Leaves only a few weeks prior, I was intrigued and looked up Homestuck, going into it almost as blind as possible.

As Hymnstoke probably indicates, my interest in Homestuck was literary from the start, and what impressed me most about it was always its boundary-pushing approach to medium and narrative. Even late into Act 6, past the point where most fans might say the story "gets bad" or whatever, Hussie was always, always concerned with that, and that is why I actually prefer Act 6 to Act 5 despite this being a fairly controversial take. I think in Act 6 Hussie is far more experimental, far more willing to take artistic risks and pursue innovative formal exercises. So, even as more traditional markers of narrative quality like character and plot stagnant, meander, or suffer altogether, Homestuck to me always felt like it was still growing in new and exciting directions.

At least until the series of super long pauses that ended with the whimpering and frankly pathetic Collide + Act 7 combo, two tragically substanceless flashes that really add nothing new or unexpected whatsoever.

The Epilogues, however, were a return to form on the formal front. The competing Meat and Candy narratives, though told in arguably Homestuck's most traditional format yet (prose narrative), are intertwined in ways that push even this ancient medium to new, unseen limits. In that sense, even ignoring all the plot/character stuff I mentioned in my previous HS^2 post, the Epilogues were a culmination of all Homestuck meant for me. A thematic capstone: A return to a traditional format that is then enlivened through daring experimentation. My Hymnstoke series often mentioned the theme of the meteors wiping out Earth so that a new society could be created out of recycled detritus from the old and stagnant world. The Epilogues are that simply in how they are made, and to me that is peak Homestuck, the chief thing that matters most about it.

HS^2 has not seemed interested in formal experimentation at all. The pre-Roach group was mindbogglingly retrograde in eschewing flashes altogether and even, really, art, preferring instead long script-style dialogues. Long pesterlogs were part of Homestuck before, but far from the only part. But there simply seemed to be zero interest in innovation, in doing anything new, in even trying anything new. To me, that's not Homestuck.

I'm not super keyed into the fandom drama, but my understanding is that the old HS^2 group was nasty and combative with the fans, while Roach has attempted to establish goodwill in the fans and repair some of the burned bridges from yesteryear. To that end, his approach seems to be succeeding. But there's a part of me that sees it as being similar to the Star Wars prequels and sequels. The prequels were an unmitigated trainwreck that the fans despised; the sequels, by contrast, began with a soft remake of New Hope that seemed tailored to tell fans "Look! Star Wars is Star Wars again! We're back! It's real! We have practical effects, and on-location filming instead of green screens, and the plot is straightforward instead of trade dispute politics!" It was like JJ Abrams watched the infamous Plinkett review of the prequels and decided to address everything directly, all to reestablish goodwill with fans.

For Episode VII, it worked. Perhaps if the rest of the trilogy were 1-to-1 soft remakes of the original trilogy, it would have continued to work. But the instant the new creators attempted any kind of innovation in the criminally underrated and over-hated Episode VIII, they were raked over the coals, and in the process of backtracking furiously wound up creating something on the same level as the prequels with Episode IX. And nobody was happy in the end.

In the position Roach is in, he can at best muster the kind of nostalgia-baiting soft remake that is so popular and common in Hollywood today, a Homestuck 2.0 rather than a Homestuck^2, something that is not in fact Beyond Canon but enslaved by it. By appealing to the goodwill of fans that's what you have to do, because what the fans love is the ghost of the story they remember, and the reason they come to Homestuck^2 over any of the endless amount of content online is because it has the name Homestuck in it, and they remember Homestuck. Waiter, I'm the critic from Ratatouille, bring me the thing I remember.

But that is conceptually antithetical to the thing I remember. And so, it'll be difficult for it to engender much interest in me. I think there are a lot of exciting, talented creators making amazing original content online today, new boundary-pushing content, a new avant garde, and that's where my interest will lie. I think the members of the Homestuck fandom who had the talent to create content like that, like Toby Fox and perhaps Tamsyn Muir (who I have not read but Gideon the Ninth is certainly popular so it must have some spark to it), have gone ahead and done it for their own original works outside the Homestuck label.

Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts on the matter, again without having actually read either the old or new HS^2, so take them with a grain of salt.

#homestuck #hs^2 #hsbc #homestuck beyond canon

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