#butches and femmes. gnc lesbians of all kinds .... .. lesbians whose gender IS lesbian. lesbian as a gender identity is so revolutionary

[rollercoasterwords]

also something that's been bugging me about queerness in barbie is that the only kind of gnc barbie we have is literally called Weird Barbie™, and is the butt of the joke the whole time. like you cannot tell me that when her looks change towards the middle of the movie she is not meant to look like a butch

ok yeah i have more time this morning to. try and talk through some of thoughts re:queerness + barbie lol

i def agree the "weird barbie" aspect was one thing that did rub me the wrong way. i get that it's a sillyfun joke or whatever but at the end of the day she really is the only representation of visible gender nonconformity in barbieland and that gender nonconformity is portrayed not as a choice or something which others might aspire to, but rather a fate to be avoided at all costs, and that's never really questioned or pushed back against aside from the barbies later apologizing for calling her "weird barbie," which...doesn't really change the way her gender is viewed in barbieland, just says the barbies will maybe stop actively making fun of her for it lol. i had to look up a pic of her second look because it's been a few weeks since i saw the barbie movie and like--yeah i guess her second look is supposed to be barbie butch lol she's got the dykey boots and the awful gay haircut so. guess i spoke too soon it's not that there are no masculine women in barbieland it's just that the only masculine woman in barbieland is a clownish caricature whose appearance is meant to be one big joke!

anyway aside from weird barbie there simply is an absence of masculine + gender nonconforming women in the movie and a complete lack of any lesbian representation. and like--this is not to say that i expected the barbie movie to have representations of like, butch lesbians lol nor do i think the barbie movie had any sort of responsibility to provide those representations. it's just that i think it is very telling when observing the rhetoric surrounding barbie's critical reception which absences + omissions can be overlooked for those who still praise the film for capturing some kind of universally relatable experience of 'womanhood'. i also do think that had the creators of the barbie movie wanted to make any sort of incisive critique about the cages constructed by gender roles, it's kind of impossible to make that deep of a critique without even acknowledging the fact that masculine women exist (by their own choice, not the mistakes of children "playing too hard"). so, again, it's not necessarily that i think the movie had to have masculine women (it's barbie; i wasn't expecting it to), more that it's interesting to see it get praised for its feminism while, again, completely omitting any discussion or even acknowledgment of gender nonconformity in women.

and like. i have seen people talk about how barbie was "lesbian-coded" or headcanon her as a lesbian, etc, and while that's all nice and fun for those people, i think it is very clear that barbie was not intended by the filmmakers or actors to be read as a lesbian. there is no indication of any sort of romantic or sexual desire towards her fellow barbies, no chemistry between her and america ferrera. it's fine to have fun hc'ing her as a lesbian etc, but i'm not going to give the movie any sort of credit for making her "lesbian-coded" just because she rejected ken. i see absolutely none of my experience with lesbianism reflected in barbie or her story; it's nice enough if some lesbians do, but to claim that barbie provides any sort of sweeping representation for lesbians is again a form of rhetoric that tellingly omits the experiences of any lesbians who aren't, like. hyperfemme women with no interest in sex or romance. and quite honestly the typical representation of lesbians in media is already femme women who are either rendered sexless or objectified in their sexuality, so even if barbie did express some sort of lesbian desire, i still wouldn't be particularly impressed with her as a form of lesbian representation.

and i suppose someone could say i shouldn't make that critique because all the barbies are sexless, but quite honestly i think the film implies quite a bit that kens experience sexuality. in ken's big song he moans about "being a virgin" forever, and there are jokes scattered throughout that imply the kens have some ability to experience at least romantic, if not sexual, attraction (such as the barbies flirting with other kens to make them jealous of each other, etc). i think it is interesting that this ability to experience attraction is relegated solely to men in the movie; sure, people could use the "it's just the way kids play" excuse, except you're delusional if you think there are kids out there who aren't making their barbies kiss + fuck + date each other. in fact, we'd arguably see more barbies experiencing some form of attraction as opposed to kens, considering that kids tend to play with barbies more often than ken. yet attraction remains firmly relegated to the kens throughout the film, and oftentimes is portrayed as a negative thing; it makes the kens pushy, shallow, jealous, etc, while the barbies are above anything so trivial as attraction, valuing first and foremost their pure and sisterly bonds of female friendship. like, i think it's a perfectly valid critique to say that the barbie movie implies that there is no place for lesbian sexuality in feminism--at the very least, it overlooks any place that lesbian sexuality might hold.

anyway. going back to the kens. as opposed to the barbies, who are visually gender-conforming both within barbieland and the real world, the kens are portrayed as distinctly more feminine than real-world men or real-life masculinity. i don't think this is inherently a bad thing; i think portrayals of feminine men can be great when it's not done as a punchline. but i did feel pretty frequently throughout the film as though that femininity was played up mostly for laughs, and it made me a little skeptical about, like. the tone the film is taking overall towards gender nonconformity in men.

like. jokes like "beach you off" (which i thought was funny! i laughed!) are specifically playing into the audience's implicit understandings about homosexuality. the joke here is that the men are arguing, but in arguing they sound as though they are threatening to perform a homosexual sex act. homosexuality here is referenced for comedic effect--how silly that these men sound as though they want to give each other handjobs! of course, part of the comedy comes from the contrast between emotion + action (it's funny to imagine someone angrily giving a handjob, an activity that is usually not angry), but whether intentional or not i also think part of the comedic effect is coming from the contrast between like....the fact that these are two masculine, ostensibly 'straight' men who are threatening to give each other handjobs, an action that the film expects an audience to view as implicitly 'feminine' due to its homosexuality. there are similar implications in other instances of homosociality between the kens (and of course there's allan haunting the fringes of all this implied homoeroticism), where i feel as though part of the silliness is meant to be coming from this contrast between the kens' masculinity and their 'feminine' behavior. and like....i think the fact that gayness is largely used to make the kens 'funny' is supported by the fact that kens all very much fit the same kind of masculine stereotype visually. where the barbies have at least some body diversity, the kens are all pretty uniformly muscular + thin, because there has to be that contrast between their visual masculinity + their feminine behavior in order for it to be comedic, y'know? and i become skeptical when the film seems to draw on gay implications for its comedy, yet refuses to actually include gay characters itself. yeah, yeah, the barbies are all sexless--except they are also very, very heterosexual and specifically paired off into barbies and kens, despite the fact that uniform heterosexuality does not reflect the way that all children play with barbies. like, i don't think it would have broken the whole "it's the kids playing!" idea to have some barbies with barbies and some kens with kens. so either it just did not occur to the filmmakers to do so because they genuinely think all kids make their barbies straight, or (what's more likely, in my opinion) they didn't want to include any gay relationships in barbieland. and, again--not saying i expected them to or that they had to. but when i see people talking about how "queer" the movie was, i'm just like....huh. the gestures towards queerness feel similar to the gestures towards body positivity, where the film casts fat women to play barbies + has fatness exist in barbieland but then still has barbie freak out over getting cellulite. like, sure, the film includes a lot of queer subtext, but what work is that queer subtext doing? and why was it left only as subtext? this is why i sometimes feel as though the film is laughing at queer people more than with us. i don't necessarily think it intends to be mean-spirited, but the queerness of barbie feels more like window-dressing than real representation to me. and i feel like anytime i see people voicing these sorts of critiques there tends to be a backlash of "it's a hollywood movie made by mattel!! it had to work within those limitations!! you have to let it be what it is!!" which i find confusing because i'm like....i...am letting it be what it is? that's why i'm not calling it particularly queer or feminist lol.

#ask #ranting and raving #still working out my thoughts on this etc but. yeah i was not a huge fan of the way barbie utilized 'queerness'

[swampgoth]

trying to focus on stuff but im thinking about how much i love lesbians. thank you all. goodnight

#lays on the ground.im thinking abt women being in lvoe and how beautiful it is #getting married and raising children together.TWO moms TWO wifes #butches and femmes. gnc lesbians of all kinds .... .. lesbians whose gender IS lesbian. lesbian as a gender identity is so revolutionary #he/him lesbians are incredible. trans lesbians i love you to the ends of the earth. lesbians of colour u are irreplacable #i've learned so much from the lesbians i know and the lesbians ill never meet. abt myself! about history! about feeling! #about gender and expression and LOVE #true love! real love. stories about old lesbians whove lived together for 50 years make me CRYY #knowing that love like that exists in the world. that love is SUPPOSED to feel like home is life changing #youre all so important and im proud to share a community with you #to my lesbian mutuals. i love you i hope you get to kiss a woman soon #i miss pride i think. and since june is coming up soon im kinda coping with the fact that i wont go to the parade again this year #by getting emotional nd posting on tumblr dot fuck

[cowboyjen68]

Anon Ask

”At the college i transferred to, in every class we were made to tell everyone our name and pronouns. I see the use for trans individuals, but for myself, it makes me uncomfortable. I am a lesbian. I am a woman. This happened at a club meeting as well. The leader was quite forceful about it, too. There is a "queer" club too, but its mostly trans and gender non binary people. I feel isolated. And worried that lesbians are dying out. (1/2)

“2/2) The gender non-binary theory doesn’t FIT me AT ALL. Lesbian groups have seemed to move underground, in Minneapolis. It’s frustrating and saddening. I feel like i have no community.”

Answer:

I want to assure you that we are not dying out. Lesbians have been around since the dawn of time and we will continue.

There has been a major shift at many GSA’s, LGBT or Queer groups and even at traditional support groups whose focus has been on sexual orientation in the past. I see a large influx of Trans and gender questioning and non Binary identified people at youth clubs, GSA’s (both college and Middle/High school).  I move about in the LGBT world as a speaker, a volunteer and event organizer. I notice the pattern as do CEO’s, educational administrators, and youth service employees.  

Our local PFLAG spun off a Trans/Gender/Gender questioning and non binary identified people support group aimed at people falling in those categories. The need was there and the mix of orientation and gender always in one meeting was causing confusion for the families and it was stifling some conversation due to comfort and time constraints.  The result was the creation of a safe space overseen by members of the trans community. PFLAG  (local chapter) remains open to all but focuses on the families (parents, friends and family) of those in the LGBT community, with the recognition that orientation and gender are not the same and each family  (and category of L G B T) faces unique challenges.

I do not fit in the gender questioning/trans or Non binary category at all and that is one reason I recruit volunteers from all sides of the LGBT world, to be there for those who most closely share their experiences. My theory is, if we ignore our differences, we do more harm than good. We can support each other under one umbrella and respect that sometimes we need comfort and conversation with others whom we relate to the most.. and people are allowed to decide for themselves where they best fit. It works, We all feel safe and listened to and it enables us to reach out to many in the area who need our resources.

All that being said.. our mode of functioning is rare. And we are lucky. .I would not be comfortable calling myself queer or working with in a group that strictly uses queer, neither would others. Some are okay with it. It appears that the like and dislike for the term is not based on age, gender or orientation… just a matter of personal comfort. I always ALWAYS ask if someone is comfortable with it.  

As a butch ( or GNC– a term i do not use for myself) I get asked more often than the straight men and women or femme lesbians or bi married couples or gay men for my pronouns. It is protocol in many meetings I attend. I don’t really mind, since I am comfortable in the “me” that i am. Getting  Mis gendered is a daily occurrence for me so it makes no difference to me if it happens at any given time. I do get annoyed when I have to restate it for professionals I have been dealing with for a long time. It is a wholly unnecessary step for me and I really only do it in LGBT formal meetings and functions. It does not occur to me otherwise. It is no biggie for me to be kind and respectful to help others feel safe.

Lesbians have had a long tradition of functioning underground and it appears we are still doing that to some extent, either to feel safe or to protect our historical culture or just to have private time away from the larger community. Each part of the LGBT umbrella deserves to carve their own niche and define their own boundaries. I am not sure why that is often seen as a bad thing.  I love when i can help other groups find their own time and space to gather and share with other who they most closely relate, lesbians included.

If the group or any group you attend discourages you from using lesbian or talking about your natural orientation and you do not feel safe talking to the facilitator, tell the over seeing authorities. They have an obligation make sure any group that is for the LGBT community respects everyone in that category. But had that happened to me in college, I would have just dropped away too. Life is busy and hard enough without one more battle. And when we are silenced within a space meant for us too, it is discouraging and maddening. 

Do not loose hope. We exist. I am not going anywhere. I am an out and visible member of my community and i am a lesbian. I am one of many.  I am  not willing to relent or hide my orientation or my butchness. And thus far, my friends and community have never asked me too. They, like me, celebrate each of us. I am saddened, often to tears, when i hear of other groups silencing any one part of the LGBT.  I also understand that younger people, those in college or high school have less power to assert themselves. AND you should not have to. GSA’s by any name are supposed to be for all of us.

My advice.. keep going to the group as long as you feel safe and talk about your experiences. Other lesbians might be looking to see “you”.  Find a community on line and use that to reach out and make real life connections. I am still in awe of the amount of real life friends I have made on tumblr and how many connections I am able to facilitate by having friends all over the world. Sometimes that new friend is 15 minutes away but it takes a mutual, and virtual friend to help you find each other. 

Order Lesbian Connection (hard copy or PDF). It is full of good information. http://www.lconline.org/

#lesbian #lgbt #bi #community

[laundryandtaxes]

ive had ppl make the argument that butch queen & femme queen terminology in ballroom culture mean that butch and femme can't be claimed exclusively by lesbians. ik they're different terms with different definitions but i didn't know how to articulate a counter-argument that validates both ballroom & lesbian culture? any help?

Short answer is, I’d ask exactly what variety of that terminology they’re referencing when they use the terms “butch” and “femme” because they’re claiming something that has nothing to do with them.

Long answer:

1. The people making that argument are never connected to those scenes and think of them as dead scenes from which they can pull a history that is literally not theirs when those scenes are still alive and not just bargaining chips, and they are using them as a bargaining chip specifically because they want lesbians to shut up and think we’re too stupid to see through that.

2. Those terms have totally different meanings within those scenes than they do in popular self-styled radical queer communities and almost everyone involved in this conversation knows this.

3. The people using this argument as a bargaining chip are almost all very aware that what lesbians are combating is the notion that nonlesbians have an inarguable right to use lesbian terminology WHILE lesbians are written out of the list of acceptable sexual orientations in a lot of these communities, and the use of these terms to push misogynist politics about how “femme people” as a group (which many people into queer politics will tell you includes gnc cis gay men) are oppressed by “masc people” (which these same people will tell you includes butches and other gnc women) in a way that is not just outright nonsense, not only misogynist, but lesbophobic, especially because it disrespects the history of butch/femme and the autonomy of butches and femmes so deeply.

4. Most of what lesbians are uncomfortable with is the absolute ripping of both terms from any connection with lesbianism when they’re so inextricable from each other, and the absolute denial that they have any connection to lesbianism when the terms (AS USED by the kinds of scenes that do this) are so obviously taken from their specifically lesbian context.

5. I haven’t done extensive reading on it but I’d bet good money the way the terms got there is still literally from lesbians- a lot of people don’t realize most of the biggest drag and bar scenes used to just be general drag scenes before drag kings became more rare and gay and lesbian communities became more separate, wherein drag queens, drag kings, and necessarily all kinds of LGBT people (as in lesbians, gay men, bi people, trans people, all of them) would have been mingling and would have shared a lot of the same language. But it’s clear that they developed in two different ways in ball cultures/scenes and in lesbian communities/scenes, and I don’t think ball scenes are appropriating anything from lesbians in that sense- I USED to think that but, no offense @ me, I think I was just heated and that was a stupid position. It seems most likely to me that the term ended up in both scenes because there was a lot of natural mingling before they separated and they developed in both cultures differently.

That development is VERY different from people with no connection to either coming along and using “femme” as a term to denote femininity in a way that seems CLOSEST to the lesbian context- mind you, the term is usually used for people who at least vaguely see themselves as related to women even though they may not use the term “woman” because “femme” has been so wholly substituted for it, and even when used by men who are very involved in queer scenes, it usually (not always but especially among white men) has nothing to do with the way “butch” and “femme” developed in ball scenes or lesbian scenes.

6. Frankly, I very, very often see the term used by bpq women who primarily date men as a way of comparing literal men with gnc women because they’re uncomfortable with gender nonconformity, point blank, and like having a term that, for them, allows them to claim that they are marginalized specifically for NOT being gender nonconforming, and it’s deeply disrespectful. It’s a way of writing marginalization onto themselves that they literally do not face while marginalizing women who DO face stigma and marginalization for being gnc, and that’s outright appropriation. To see it coming from women whose primary issues often include not being seen as queer enough because they are dating men (all those articles on queer femmes being seen as straight are, I think, about another anxiety, because I guarantee you femmes who are out and about with their partners are not getting read as straight while they’re together at LEAST) . To be very clear, yes it is fucked up to call bi women straight, and not all bi women have the same relationship to men or the same attitudes toward lesbians and lesbianism. But for women who are not lesbians AND not gnc and don’t have all that much in common with lesbians to grab a lesbian term, USE it to marginalize women (including lesbians) who actually are gnc, and then claim that butches are oppressing them, all within the context of politics which are usually hostile to lesbians, is upsetting and frustrating and yeah it pisses a lot of lesbians off.

6. Honestly if queer cultures weren’t so generally hostile to lesbians and working so hard to erase us, I bet women would generally care a whole lot less. If we didn’t have so little left to hang onto it wouldn’t be nearly so big of a deal- not to say it isn’t a big deal in and of itself, but I’m saying the context around these things matters.

#Anonymous