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morwensteelsheen · 3 years

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If Faramir went to Rivendell, how would the whole ttt/rohan plot be different?

A good question that I have spent an unreasonable time thinking about! My first LOTR fic was going to be an attempt to answer this, but then I got so wrapped up in not having the answers that I sidelined it and wrote WC instead. So I think instead of giving you one definitive answer I’ll give you a couple scenarios I think are plausible? If that’s not too much of a cop out lmao? Apologies in advance for the inevitable spelling errors, I did this on my phone and my dyslexia is off the charts today.

I think it’s basically unavoidable that he goes via Rohan first, geographically he’s sort of left without an option there. When he’s there, we get into this issue of whether and how he and Éowyn interact. Worth noting, I think, that the Unfinished Tales has Éomer living in Aldburg by the War, but Éomer does seem to imply he’s around for Boromir passing through. Is this because he knows and already is a fan of Boromir? Maybe! Or maybe Éomer goes to Aldburg after.

But I digress. We have to ask the question of whether Faramir falls in love with Éowyn because he was always going to fall in love with Éowyn, or if it’s because the things he’s gone through immediately preceding it primed him for it. I — perhaps quite cheaply — come down on the side of Faramir always having it bad for her on first sight. And contextually I think that comes from his, rather sweet, enunciation of the way his regard/love changes for her. He says that at first he pities her, and then he gets to know her and he doesn’t pity her anymore, he respects and admires her. That’s an interesting dynamic to bring into play in basically every AU, because you get this double barrel characterisation of his attitude to her changing, and his own character maturing/sharp edges softening.

I think he off the bat he sees that she’s beautiful, and immediately is drawn to her for that. Shallow? Maybe! But, to badly paraphrase my ol fav Victor Hugo quote — love always begins with a glance.

I imagine he stays for a short while, maybe a week, two at most. At this point I think that Éowyn’s basically viewing him as an official guest that she has to entertain, and I think Faramir is, in his own, slightly stilted, slightly wanky way, putting the moves on her. This can go, imo, one of two ways. She can either be receptive to it (which is a nice thought!) or she can be aware of it but mostly ignore it because, really, she’s got lots of shit on her plate.

Either way, he leaves Edoras at some point. The big question is where does his go from there?

One thing I toy around with is that, given his pre-existing relationship to Gandalf, maybe he’s willing to trust the Istari a bit more and goes straight for Isengard? Which, and I think I did the math on this once a few months ago, would have him arriving at Isengard around the time Gandalf’s getting his shit kicked in by Saruman lol. I think this could be a really compelling plot point, but I’ll be very honest with you, I 100% don’t have the imagination or writing skills to figure out how it proceeds from there, so I’m not going to try to.

If he goes the normal Boromir route, he still loses his horse at Tharbad and walks (lmao jesus???) to Rivendell. When he gets there, I think he’s immediately going to have everything he knows put to the test in quite jarring ways. First off, he’s going to be infinitely more deferential to Elrond, Aragorn &c when they’re trashing Gondor. He’ll push back a bit, no doubt on that, but he’s going to be starstruck by Aragorn in a way that Boromir just wasn’t.

No real difference I imagine between Rivendell and Lothlórien, except that he’d definitely be laser focused on palling about with Aragorn, and he’d probably spend more of his time being friendly with Frodo than with Merry and Pippin tbh (not in a douchey way, I just think he and Frodo vibe a little better. Though I bet he and Merry had some interesting chats about pipe weed history).

The underlying question here is what sort of relationship does he have to the ring? I don’t buy this idea that he’s not tempted by it, I just think that what the ring offers him is a bit shit. We don’t know what the ring tempts him with, he’s not clear on that in TTT. I can’t really see the ring being like ‘oh I’ll give you a king to follow’ because that is some intensely nerdy shit, but is somehow the one thing I could see Faramir actually being tempted by. Regardless of what it offers him in this AU, he resists it on the basis that he’s got this mythical king he’s been desperate for, and he’s not gonna risk that for anything.

Lothlórien comes next, and oh my god when I tell you this is the part I genuinely have no answer for. I stopped writing my first fic at Lothlórien because I couldn’t cope. Tbh it probably lowkey fries Faramir’s brain, and for so many reasons. The whole godmoding Númenórean stuff he’s got going on probably interests Galadriel a bit, and so that whole conversation is going to be wildly different than it was for Boromir. But what does she say to Faramir? I have no idea. I really don’t. There’s also probably a million and one things also going on psychologically for him at that point, which makes dealing with this bit difficult. Really difficult. So I’m gonna, uh, conveniently smash cut away.

Parth Galen! Again, another two potential splits here. The first, (from here on out I’ll refer to as Plot A) which I find rather endearing, is that he goes off with Frodo and Sam when Frodo makes the decision to split. I don’t know that I believe he’d do it, but it proves for a very delightful interpretation of his character.

Plot B is that when the Orcs show up, Faramir survives not by virtue of his being a ~ better warrior ~ or whatever than Boromir, but by the terrain surrounding Parth Galen being something he’s far more in the habit of dealing with, and by virtue of his having a bow at his disposal. I know there’s room for an interpretation of Faramir as not primarily an archer, but narratively I think that’s less interesting. So he’s an archer. He’s an archer and also his priority is on Aragorn first and foremost, so Merry and Pip still get taken, and Frodo and Sam use the hubbub to GTFO, which is actually slightly more in line with the movie’s chronology, funnily enough. The three hunters become four, and then go on Merry & Pippin’s trails.

In Plot A, they’re hauling ass across the Emyn Muil, bolstered in some ways by Faramir’s experience as a Ranger. The problem is the issue of getting into Mordor and whether or not they pick up Gollum. I think, in a way that frustrates me immensely, they do end up taking Gollum, not because they need a guide, but because Gollum fulfils this deep psychological need for Frodo, and I think he would have argued for keeping Gollum regardless. Faramir is going to be fucked off about this, but will ultimately, I think, be deferential to the ringbearer.

So they go across the Dead Marshes, but they do NOT attempt the Black Gate first because Faramir’s not a fool. Do they go to Henneth Annûn? I say yes, but with the caveat that in all likelihood Boromir is gonna be there, which is gonna complicate stuff tremendously.

Over to Plot B!

The four hunters go to the Mark! They meet Éomer! Hey! Éomer recognises Faramir! (And he’s probably a little fucked off that he lost his horse lol). But whatever, he knows this guy, so he’s probably gonna be like, uhhh, everything you saw before in Edoras is much worse now. Also my cousin's dead and everything is bad. Here’s some horses, sorry for maybe accidentally killing your pals, see ya! And at this point I think Faramir’s probably having a, hmmm, g e n t l e p s y c h i c c r i s i s, because if he’s still very 👅 for Éowyn (which he is, sorry, he has to be) then he’s going to want to go there ASAP. Obviously though that’s not gonna happen, so: Merry and Pip chasing, Gandalf finding, Edoras arriving.

Which means Éowyn. If, at this point, she and Faramir already have something of an arrangement going on (nudge nudge) then she’s really not gonna give a shit about Aragorn. You know how in TTT it’s not even clear that she actually sees Legolas and Gimli? 100% that vibe with Aragorn too. Théoden’s gonna get his house in order, they’re going to head to Helm’s Deep, and Éowyn’s gonna get named head of house. (Faramir, if he starts off just thinking she’s beautiful, is going to have quite the paradigm shift here, because he’s going to have to start reckoning with her as not just a beautiful woman, but as a very, very intense person. This is how his love for her starts to mature.)

Sometimes I dream about him being like, ‘hey! I have some first hand experience of ruling a kingdom, how about I stay and…….. lend you a hand……..’ to Éowyn while she’s keeping watch on Edoras. This is wildly unlikely, but a delightful thought nonetheless. In the more likely case, which is that he goes to the Hornburg, she’s going to start feeling some strain about this whole war shebang, and it’s going to lead to some difficult conversations. Chief among them is that Faramir, as second son, actually has basically nothing to give her, which is not exactly a great position to be in when you’re in love with the niece of a king. I’m of the opinion that Éowyn’s not fussed by that stuff (she agrees to marry him when he’s prepping to give up a shit ton of power anyways), so she’s probably like, 'no, fuck you, we’re getting married.' And then he leaves, and it starts to emotionally unsettle her more and more.

If they don’t already have a thing, then it either begins at this point OR he gets overshadowed by Aragorn. In either case, off to Helm’s Deep he goes.

Helm’s Deep happens, I think Faramir ends up extraordinarily impressed by how the Rohirrim handle the Dunlenders afterwards, which also begins to soften his harsh opinion of them more generally.

They go to Isengard, Pippin looks in the Palantír, and away Pippin and Gandalf go. Both Gandalf and Faramir here would recognise that it would be batshit insane for Faramir to go back to MT now, because Denethor would read him like a picture book and he’d have to admit to the entire mission of the Fellowship.

Over in Plot A, I think we’re going to have some real emotional complexity vis a vis Faramir showing up at Henneth Annûn with two hobbits, a ring, and Boromir in control there. God, it would just be a disaster. My incredibly generous interpretation of this is that Faramir keeps the plan vague enough that Boromir lets them pass unhindered. My less generous interpretation is… yeah I don’t wanna do it tbh. It’s not pretty. It's also, to be clear: not an indictment of Boromir as a character. His response is entirely rational for someone expected to lead a kingdom and for someone put up against the unbelievable power of the One Ring. The reason Faramir continuously gets to pass largely untempted by the ring is because he's a guy with no actual responsibilities once you take the Rangers away. His understanding of his duty to Gondor is almost entirely conceptual in nature. He can think and talk about defending Gondor as it once was because there are several people above him in the hierarchy defending Gondor for what it is. This is also not an indictment of Faramir. He and Boromir just have wildly different realities to contend with.

They are going to go through Cirith Ungol even though Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumbass both speak Sindarin and don’t cotton on to what its name implies lol. This whole scene is much shorter because Faramir’s significantly more cautious, so there is no Orc capture and Sam doesn't take the Ring. This is where things get a bit complex, and where I don’t think I have the imagination to say much more. Sorry!

Back in Plot B, the lads catch up with Éowyn as they prep to go down the Paths of the Dead. If she and Faramir are a thing, this is where the real emotional distress kicks in for her. All of the men in her life have, at one point or another, functionally abandoned her, and here’s Faramir, love of her life, about to do the exact same thing. Faramir inevitably goes with the Grey Company even though she begs him not to. When she tries to convince them not to go down the Paths at all, he is in the fortunate enough position to throw up his hands and say 'not my call, actually. King’s in charge,' which lessens the emotional conflict there somewhat.

No part of me doubts that Éowyn wouldn’t then immediately go over his head to Aragorn. She would, she absolutely does not give a fuck. And she’s going to get knocked back re: joining them in exactly the same way as in the book, because Aragorn’s take here isn’t actually dependent on her personally, it’s dependent on the duty she’s been charged with, which is taking care of her people. (Also going to be an interesting narrative parallel to a later conversation between Faramir and Aragorn after the Pelennor, which I’ll explain in more detail later.)

Faramir will, perhaps somewhat less dismissively, say this to her. He learns much more obviously the way to talk to her on her own terms, and he’s not gonna fall into the trap of letting her be like ‘you just want me to wait and die after all the men are dead.’ He’s going to probably give her some line about her being the last organised line of defence, and he might even invoke Haleth! It’s not going to work, because Éowyn’s very aware of the apocalyptic nature of all of this, but it’s not going to cause such abject hatred and fury as it otherwise would.

If she and Faramir are not a thing, her emotional distress is as it is in the book, except now Faramir’s trying not to pout in the background. He might even step in to try and soften the blow.

Regardless, she ends up as Dernhelm, she rides to the Pelennor.

Boromir is the one responsible for the Osgiliath retreat, and because it’s heavily implied that Faramir only keeps his seat because he’s got this dumbass Númenor garbage going on ('master of man and beast' — king Beregond), Boromir’s going to get killed by the Witch king here.

This is going to send shockwaves through not just Denethor, but Minas Tirith more generally, because Boromir is fucking adored. Denethor’s going to go high holy crackers much quicker, mostly because Gandalf is a shit stirrer and is going to waste no time at all in announcing that Aragorn, The Rightful King, is on his way, and Denethor will — correctly — surmise that Faramir has chosen Aragorn over returning with whatever Isildur’s Bane is to Gondor. This is the end for Denethor.

Éowyn rides from Dunharrow, slays the Witch king. Faramir and Aragorn show up with the Army of Dead, Faramir does not end up injured, but does end up as the Steward (obviously) and (obviously) aware that Éowyn is in the HOH. And also that everybody else he loves is dead. Yeehaw.

Here’s where I think things get really interesting. I think, counter to the way this is portrayed a lot of the time, Faramir doesn’t go to the Black Gate at all. I think he stays in Minas Tirith, not just to organise the wider range defences (esp the Rohirrim dealing w the Druadan) but in this very grim preparation to lead the retreat from Minas Tirith if/when Frodo & Sam fail. I think he's kind of fine with this for two reasons. The first is that him being conscious to process the death of his father, and it coming hours after the death of his brother means that he's going to have a personal-political crisis, and he's going to have to take the defence of Gondor more seriously than he did before. Second, Aragorn's going to tell him to fucking stay put, and he's going to be fine with it because it means he's going to get to spend the last few days of his life with Éowyn.

He and Éowyn reunite in the HOH, there’s still a lot of deeply emotional stuff going on, but, at least now Faramir’s conscience is clear re: marrying her because, well, he’s the Steward now. Also their reunion is going to take on greater significance because she’ll have killed the thing that killed his brother. So, that’s a lot.

If they are not a thing before the Pelennor, she's still going to drag his ass over to the HOH so she can bitch about being stuck there. But this time he's not a fellow hospital-prisoner, he's having to actually do things, and he's going to use that to his advantage in terms of keeping her from doing stupid shit. I think he's going to try to involve her in some of the strategic questions re: the retreat if the Morannon feint fails. I think he's going to make a point of talking to her to get her help on dealing with the Rohir forces that are in and around the City. I think that's going to go a huge way to helping to ease her misery, and it's going to be such a significant vote of trust in her (even after she's done the unthinkable and deserted her people) that she's going to fall in love with him here, as per. And the contrast between him and Aragorn is going to be all the stronger for it.

So yes. Those are just some of the possibilities I think! Sorry for the word dump!!

#asks #faramir /#lotr /#fgtrau #hc

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warrioreowynofrohan · 4 years

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@anduniela Continuation of character thoughts post.

Elrond

My opinions on this character: I have far too many to fit into one post, so I’ll just focus on a couple aspects. (EDIT: This still got so long!)

One of the things that stands out about Elrond is that, whereas Galadriel’s character arc is about learning from her own mistakes, Elrond’s is about learning from everyone else’s mistakes.

In terms of learning from the Fëanorians’ mistakes, I’ve already done a post discussing his comments in LOTR about oaths. He also holds very lightly to family heirlooms, not even bringing up the fact that Glamdring belonged to his great-grandfather.

On top of that, there’s a very strong thread of learning from Thingol’s mistakes, to the point where Elrond’s role in Middle-earth is a mirror of what Thingol’s could and perhaps should have been. Where Doriath in the First Age was isolationist and xenophobic[1], Rivendell welcomes everyone - from Men to Dwarves to Hobbits. Elrond fosters the heirs of Isildur (fosterage that turns out much better than Thingol’s, perhaps partly because they aren’t surrounded by a social environment that is broadly hostile to Men - in addition to the obvious contibuting factor of not being cursed!). He’s widely trusted in a way that other Elves of the Third Age aren’t - Boromir, who regards Galadriel as a dangerous sorceress, is willing to just show up at Imladris uninvited and ask for advice. Thorin & Company likewise just show up, whereas Lórien won’t less dwarves past the borders and Thranduil straught-up arrests them. The colloquial named of Rivendell as the Last Homely House really says it all. Beyond that, Elrond respects Arwen’s right to make her own decisions about who she loves, and recognize the importance of her choice for Middle-earth as a whole, despite the grief it brings him. (His charge to Aragorn isn’t a way of ´earning’ anyone so much as saying “You can’t neglect your responsibilities just because you’re in love”; and probably additionally motivated by the Eldarin ethos of not marrying in wartime.)

One of the other things I find striking about him is that he’s related pretty much all lineages/houses/cultures of the Eldar and Edain alike. On Elwing’s side he’s descended from the Sindar (and thus related to the Teleri) and the House of Beor, as well as from the Maiar; on Eärendil’s side he’s descended from the Noldor of Fingolfin’s house and from the House of Hador (and more distantly from the Haladin); he’s also related to the Vanyar through Fingolfin’s line; and he’s related to the Fëanorians by adoption/fosterage.

By descent he’s the rightful king of the Sindar and, after Gil-galad’s death, of the Noldor as well, thoygh he never claims either of these kingships. In the case of the Sindar, I don’t think he could have been accepted as king, given his upbringing, though they have no dislike for him personally. It’s a kind of cultural theft from the Sindar, that the heir of Lúthien and of Dior was raised by their enemies, and another thing for them to resent the Fëanorians for.

In the case of the Noldor, there are many possible reasons why he didn’t claim the High Kingship. Perhaps he thought that the remaining Noldor were too few, and too geographically dispersed, for it to be a useful or necessary position. Perhaps it seemed presumptuous, given that Galadriel had much greater age and experience. Perhaps he regarded him as in some degree Fëanorian and regarded Maedhros’ renunciation of the throne as applicable to himself as well.

Romantic relationship: Elrond/Celebrian.

Favourite non-romantic relationship: Well, his relationship to Maedhros and Maglor is certainly fascinating. My view is that he loves them and grieves for them, but he doesn’t expect others, especially those who have been harmed by the House of Fëanor, to share his views or his sentiments, or to forgive them.

With one exception. At sone point after his arrival in Valinor (after Galadriel’s success in getting Gimli admitted to Valinor tips him off that the Ringbearers have some serious sway with the Valar), he intercedes with the Valar for Maglor to be permitted to return to Valinor, and his request is granted. This leads to a great deal of emotional complications for a great many people, but is ultimately beneficial. (I have a rather extensive fic in my head surrounding this that I’ve never managed to actually write down any of.)

Unpopular opinion: I don’t regard Elros’ death as being emotionally devastating for him. He misses his brother, certainly. But he also recognizes that Elros made the choice that suited him, and had exactly the life he wanted - a life of activity, achievement, and meaning, where he had work that he loved and governed a people that he loved in a land that he loved, and died at a good old age surrounded by his family and friends. And that’s an achievement to be celebrated.

The loss of Arwen is much more painful, both because the relationship between parents and children is different from the one betwwen siblings, and because Arwen didn’t choose mortality for its own sake the way Elros did. She chose it for love of Aragorn, but the choice was a sacrifice, and for that reason mortality was hard for her, as we see in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Something I wish had/did happen with them in canon: See above, about Maglor. And I do think that Elladan and Elrohir came to Valinor eventually, after they’d seen all they wanted of Middle-earth; it’s just too hard on Elrond to think of him losing all three of his children.

[1] I will add some qualifiers: Thingol did have valid reasons for anger at those who participated in the Kinslaying; and even before that, some cause for resentment at people carelessly divvying up his thousands-of-years-old kingdom without reference to him, even if Maedhros was in practical terms correct that everything outside Doriath would have been under Morgoth’s control if the Noldor hadn’t showed up. But when you combine not just his hostility to the Noldor (and virtual non-participation in Mereth Aderthad, when Fingolfin was actively trying to reach out) but also his early hostility to Men, and Saeros’ bigotry, and the later interactions with the dwarves, it all paints a picture of a deeply insular kingsom with little respect for other cultures or desire to interact with them.

#tolkien #the lord of the rings #the silmarillion #elrond #character asks #thingol #elros tar minyatur #maglor #galadriel #character thoughts

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arofili · 5 years

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Fornication and Relationships among the Eldar

[FaRE]: A Meta Analysis of LaCE

AO3 version of this can be found HERE!

I've been wanting to write this since like. 2016. and i finally got around to it thanks to the B2MeM prompt for "The universality of Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (O73) on the Silm Fanon Inversion card & @absynthe--minded‘s encouragement! thanks y'all!

Disclaimer right at the top: I may have gotten a few details here and there wrong. Blame fanon for that - this is as much an exploration of the fanon around LaCE as it is the actual document Tolkien wrote.

This meta can be shortened to "FaRE," mirroring the acronym "LaCE," but my roommate @berbss suggested the alternate title "Flaws and Customs among the Eldar" which is VERY funny and I needed to mention it.

CWs: lots of cursing, frank discussions of sex and sexuality, brief mention of rape, frequent insults to JRRT, obstinate queerness on the part of OP

Okay, so LaCE can be fun for plot reasons, and I want to preface this by saying that everyone's interpretations of this document are valid and I don't mean to shit on your headcanons, but let's be real! The whole idea that sex=marriage for elves is some real Catholic bullshit and Tolkien should be ashamed of himself.

The thing about LaCE, for me, isn't just "that's stupid and I want to write about elves that fuck" (though that is also true and valid). LaCE is is buckwild in a lot of ways, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense historically or culturally.

First of all, this is a Law and/or Custom of the Eldar. Who set down that law? When? Why? If it's a custom, does that mean it's not hard and fast for everyone? And it says /right there/ that it's a law/custom of the ELDAR, which leaves out the Avari entirely.

After all, another part of this law/custom is that marriage includes vows before Manwë, Varda, and Eru, none of whom are holy to the Avari. But the Avari are still elves; does that make them heathens in Tolkien's eyes? I mean, yes, definitely, but still! The Avari have no reason to follow this particular custom and were probably doing whatever the hell they wanted with their bodies and relationships.

But back to the Eldar. This rule stinks of the Valar to me. Eru was never that direct about what he wanted, and the Valar messed up all the time, especially when it came to elves. The Ainur don't need to procreate, after all, so why would they understand sex? Defining it in ways that they could divide into "right" and "wrong" is very much in character for them. And if it's a rule set down by the Valar and followed obediently by the Calaquendi...that raises a whole lot of questions about the Exiles.

Sure, maybe they followed that rule in Valinor, and the elves who live there might still follow it as well. If this law includes the "only one spouse" rules, we have good evidence that Finwë and his generation, at the least, were subject to it. But Fëanor and the other Noldorin Exiles forsook the Valar by returning to Middle-earth. Why would they keep this law if they are abandoning so many others?

Fëanor hated Indis, though, and might have wanted to cling to this law because of that. Or maybe not, and whatever he thought about marriage laws, his kin blamed the Valar for most of their troubles and this is another way to defy them. If you're partial to Russingon, Maedhros was already up to some illicit shit, and you can't tell me that ALL the Fëanorians were celibate in Beleriand. Like, c'mon, you know that Celegorm got some. (Or maybe not, your headcanons are VALID!)

The Arafinwëans and Nolofinwëans are direct results of a second marriage and the ~bending~ of marriage laws, if not their breaking. I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to overlook this... though maybe Galadriel, at least, stuck to the rule and passed it onto her subjects in Lothlórien later. (Or not...this one's for you, Galadriel/Melian shippers. Also, tangent: do you really think MELIAN really stuck to this law? Come on, she married an elf! She doesn't give two shits about the Valar and their laws about Ainur not having kids or whatever the fuck!)

We've established that the Vanyar and the other Valinorian elves were all about this law, questioned whether the Noldorin exiles would stick to it, and determined that the Avari had no reason to ever start following this custom. But what about the Silvan and Sindar elves who started the journey to Valinor, but never finished?

We know elves had familial relationships in Cuiviénen; Elwë and Olwë were brothers, for some reason. But the first elves just kind of...HAPPENED. Did this first generation of elves just not know to procreate until the Valar set down laws for them? Sounds fake. Maybe Elwë and Olwë weren't first generation, but literal blood brothers, and just happened to be among the most important leaders later. Or not, who really knows.

Elves had to figure this shit out on their own before Oromë stumbled across them. Maybe the Eldar adopted the laws along the way, having sex and children along their long journey to Valinor. In that case, the Silvan and Sindar elves didn't have much of a reason to stop following the custom, because they never outright rebelled, just kind of drifted away. To me, this seems like the most plausible reason that the law endured.

But over the Ages and Ages of time separated from the beings who set down the law, I can't believe that no one questioned it. What happens if elves have sex but don't want to be married? What happens if they have sex and do want to be married, but don't say the vows? Does it not count, then? Maybe not in the eyes of the Valar, but how fussed are the Silvan and the Sindar about conforming to the Valar's every whim? ESPECIALLY the Silvan, who never saw the Valar's power firsthand in the War of Wrath.

And what about the Sindar elves who followed Oropher to Eryn Galen? If the Silvan elves there had long since abandoned the tradition, would this custom get lost in Mirkwood when Oropher's people assimilated (mostly) into Silvan culture?

And this is all assuming the custom developed while on the journey to Valinor! If it didn't get set down until they arrived in Aman, only the Calaquendi ever followed this practice. How, then, would the rest of the elves learn of it? Noldorin colonialism? (Looking at you, Galadriel.) Or would they not even bother with it, whatever they think of the Valar in general?

I've written a lot already, but you know what? Let's go deeper.

What about elvish interactions with other species? There are canon elf-mortal relationships, but you can't tell me that the ONLY elf-fuckers were Tuor, Beren, and Aragorn. Sure, maybe we only KNOW about the high and mighty elf princesses and their scandalous affairs, but the Noldor were more than their princes. There were normal people there, too! Fantasy Classism dictates that only the famous relationships got written down, with whispers of others like Aegnor/Andreth and Mithrellas/Imrazôr, but come on. There were more that happened, and more peredhel than just Elrond and his family. And y'all know I'm a slut for elf/dwarf relationships! Tauriel/Kíli may be a PJ Original but like this is NOT a new idea...it's got to have happened, right?

How do these interspecies marriages work? Mortals can fuck an elf and not be married. Would the elf be married to them, but not the other way around? (I know I've seen a Gigolas post about that...) That doesn't sound legit. This whole idea is full of holes.

Besides, who says the Valar kept this law? Aside from cultural drift, it's such a normative way of looking at relationships. I'd like to think the Valar can learn and grow, especially given the disastrous rebellion of Fëanor. Let's talk polyamory for a bit: so many problems could have been solved if Finwë/Míriel/Indis could have been allowed! With the Finwëan fiasco, you think the Valar would reassess what they did wrong there!

What counts as "sex" for the purposes of sex being the same thing as marriage? Just PIV? There's a lot of sexual acts outside of that narrow definition. Is penetration the key? Because there's ways around that. Or is it orgasm? Because that doesn't necessarily require another person. If it is just PIV, I guess that would make gay elves unable to marry, but like... come on! That's some real bullshit, even for Tolkien!

What about asexual elves? Sex-repulsed elves? I've seen people claim that all Tolkien elves are demisexual, which...I have issues with, but there definitely elves with complicated relationships to sex! Are sexless marriages not valid? Even if they include vows? Consummation laws are not great, y'all...

And what about aromantic elves? Elves who have nonromantic sexual relations? Is that unholy and evil? I know Tolkien wanted his Favorite Special Perfect Species to not have any lust or sexual sin, but this is just unrealistic. Besides, Tolkien wrote flawed and fallen heroes all the time, just look at Túrin and Maedhros and Fëanor! Even IF LaCE was meant to be taken as literally as we sometimes take it, his own world and characters break his rules frequently.

What about nonromantic and nonsexual relationships? Those get brushed over a lot irl, but Tolkien's works are full of them. Just look at Frodo & Sam, probably what he intended Maedhros & Fingon to be, Legolas & Gimli, etc... Some of those people will want their relationship formalized, maybe through calling it marriage. Does that not count? Is Tolkien really going to say that these relationships he writes, often at the core of his stories, are suddenly lesser?

I can tell this is just veering into my politics around relationships in general, so let's get back on track:

The important part of this whole custom should be the love and intent behind the vows, not the act of sex. Elves can get married if they're on the run, if need be, so it's not the actual ceremony that they value. What the people involved want should be enough to make it formal in the eyes of each other and of the Valar, if that's something they care about.

When it comes down to it, sex equaling marriage is a custom and/or a law, like it says in the title of LaCE. It's not an inherently biological trait...which makes the whole thing about how elves can "see" if someone has gotten married SUPER weird. Maybe what they can really see is the marriage-bond, visible through some funky kind of magic - I could buy that, and I've played with the idea in fic before.

But I maintain that sex CANNOT equal marriage, even by Tolkien's standards. Rape is clearly not marriage, as we see in the case of Celebrían. Elvish marriage has intent and ritual behind it, certainly; that is what makes it a custom. To me, this whole idea feels like a mistranslation or misconception that occurred when mortal scholars tried to understand elvish customs.

At least, that's the in-universe explanation. The out-of-universe explanation is just that Tolkien is a fucking coward.

#laws and customs among the eldar #silm #silmarillion #b2mem #silm meta #my meta #tefain nin #b2mem 2019 #bingo bonus #fornication and relationships among the eldar #absynthe minded #berbss #meta #tolkien meta #my fic

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